Public education: competing interests, philosophical divide

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In some ways, yes, they are at odds. It is pretty difficult to run a classroom and teach kids who vary widely in their academics. Differentiating by +/- one year in grade level is possible, but not much more than that (absent a much larger teaching staff than what is economically feasible for a public school system). I don't believe that it is feasible to teach a class of 7th graders from all SES levels when some are reading at the 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th grade levels and others are reading at the 3rd grade level.

I'm a seventh grade public school teacher and I concur. I know that tracking has been unfairly used to create racially segregated learning settings and deny minority and low-income white children a more rigorous academic experience. However, the problem wasn't tracking. The damage done was in the aim and methods of tracking. In my first decade of teaching, I had separate honors and on-level classes. Generally, students learned the same topics, but methods and the type of assessments differed. There were always a couple misplaced students in my 5-6 classes, but we could accommodate them through differentiating. After four years of teaching mixed ability classes, I can attest that no one is benefitting. There's a wide variation in abilities even without taking special needs into consideration. I prepare at least four levels of readings and still there are one or two students who are not being appropriately challenged or supported. Meanwhile, increasingly parents are pushing for either harder or easier work based almost exclusively on what their child's BFF has. So, even differentiating becomes fraught with problems.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't think you meant this

Neighborhood schools alone without school choice effectively create segregation due to housing costs. School choice enable desegregation.

That assumes minorities are lower SES/inferior

I did not say low SES are only minorities or inferior so please don't make assumptions. Neighborhood schools do tend to cause segregation and that the very least economic segregation. Also, in DC low SES students are predominately minorities and are limited in where they can live. Actually, even many middle class folks like my family are priced out of most of DC.

[Anonymous]

As a high SES person with kids of color, this site and many of these highly sought after DC schools are tough to handle. Many people here assume their kids are being pulled down by kids like mine because we dont live on the hill or in ward 2. (Sorry, We dont wear our ivy league degrees on our shoulders.) Schools use achievements of kids like mine to show off their "success" in closing the gap when in reality, my kids would be achieving without their help. I sometimes wish the school would publish some of the test scores from families like mine... so you can see a lot of us "lottery" folks have kids that blow the roof off your kids' test scores."

If you don't think most people can figure out the difference between skin color and SES, then I feel sorry for you.

In any event, I don't believe all low SES kids are capable of achieving. Some can. Others are gifted, and probably not having their talents recognized. But there is too much lead exposure, fetal alcohol syndrome, and other issues that impact brain development at much higher rates than higher SES kids. Schools can fix some elements of being disadvantaged, such as through Head Start, but schools can fix physical damage to brains.

Note, I'm not referring to AA kids. This can be true for kids of any skin colors, depending on their circumstances.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think you meant this

Neighborhood schools alone without school choice effectively create segregation due to housing costs. School choice enable desegregation.

That assumes minorities are lower SES/inferior

I did not say low SES are only minorities or inferior so please don't make assumptions. Neighborhood schools do tend to cause segregation and that the very least economic segregation. Also, in DC low SES students are predominately minorities and are limited in where they can live. Actually, even many middle class folks like my family are priced out of most of DC.

Of course neighborhood schools tend to cause segregation -- economic and often racial ...This is why there is still mandatory busing in some cities in the U.S. The U.S. Supreme Court held a couple years ago that busing policies can be upheld if "diversity" (not just racial diversity, but socioeconomic diversity) is the goal.

[Anonymous]

I'm in favor of equality of opportunity. I think that means increased integration AND differentiation for kids who need it. We need to move toward a place where differentiation by ability is not so tightly tied to socio-economic status (aka the achievement gap).

The more time I spend thinking and reading and working on this question, the more I'm convinced that what we have is a housing problem, not an education problem. I don't think we can have socioeconomically integrated educational systems when we have such chronically segregated neighborhoods.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a high SES person with kids of color, this site and many of these highly sought after DC schools are tough to handle. Many people here assume their kids are being pulled down by kids like mine because we dont live on the hill or in ward 2. (Sorry, We dont wear our ivy league degrees on our shoulders.) Schools use achievements of kids like mine to show off their "success" in closing the gap when in reality, my kids would be achieving without their help. I sometimes wish the school would publish some of the test scores from families like mine... so you can see a lot of us "lottery" folks have kids that blow the roof off your kids' test scores."

If you don't think most people can figure out the difference between skin color and SES, then I feel sorry for you.

In any event, I don't believe all low SES kids are capable of achieving. Some can. Others are gifted, and probably not having their talents recognized. But there is too much lead exposure, fetal alcohol syndrome, and other issues that impact brain development at much higher rates than higher SES kids. Schools can fix some elements of being disadvantaged, such as through Head Start, but schools can fix physical damage to brains.

Note, I'm not referring to AA kids. This can be true for kids of any skin colors, depending on their circumstances.

Agree with all that you've said, except for the "all low SES are capable of achieving," comment.

Lead exposure and FAS certainly exist, but so does cystic fibrosis, childhood leukemia, diabetes, dyslexia, adhd, and etc. The difference is how an affluent child is given more resources from the limited pool for the same conditions that just get a poor child written off as someone with a low SES. I went to a magnet school in the 80s and my classmates spanned a gamut of socioeconomic classes. Now, I see my child's peer group is supposed to be narrowed only to other families who make six figures, or she will be "exposed" to the wrong elements? There are always some kids who will be more academically advanced than others. There will always be some kids more prone to disruptive behavior, or depression, or whatever. That is NOT an SES thing. That's called life. Genetic variation. Environmental conditions that no one can control. It does in no way affect a child's "value." There is no point where we should just way our hands and say, "eh. Poor people. What can you do? they have the FAS."

I do realize I am accepting my privilege here, and that of my child. As a white affluent family, we can afford to curse, to be sloppy, to receive academic evaluations and accommodations for our child. We can afford to be careless. As a high SES AA family, you probably can't. I don't like that any more than I assume you do. I try and fight against it. I try not to make any assumptions about my child's classmates, except whether they are nice to her or not nice to her. And if the latter, we try and work it out. I am disgusted at how divided we all are about stuff that really isn't so complicated. Kids have been learning to read and add and subtract for a very long time, under a variety of conditions. It doesn't need to be some kind of arena death match, it really doesn't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm in favor of equality of opportunity. I think that means increased integration AND differentiation for kids who need it. We need to move toward a place where differentiation by ability is not so tightly tied to socio-economic status (aka the achievement gap).

The more time I spend thinking and reading and working on this question, the more I'm convinced that what we have is a housing problem, not an education problem. I don't think we can have socioeconomically integrated educational systems when we have such chronically segregated neighborhoods.

You're right, and that's why urban living is important. But DC's urban development is not supporting mixed income housing. Its version of same is to attempt to put a homeless shelter in ward 3 in the name of diversity. Should have more robust mixed income development, housing lotteries for different income tiers, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't know why everyone is making this so complicated

People should just stay in their neighborhood schools and quit trying to game the system

At each school you would have a high medium and low track.

Capitol Hill is the classic case of overcompliaction. If everyone would just go to their zoned school things would be fine

Really? I should go to my neighborhood school?

It doesn't have air conditioning. It had (up until this year) a sinkhole so big that there was a fence around it so kids weren't allowed to use the playspace. The sinkhole has it's own twitter account.

The roof leaks.

We aren't even talking about test scores...

Your understanding of the DC Public School system covers Capitol Hill and Ward 3. Get out more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't know why everyone is making this so complicated

People should just stay in their neighborhood schools and quit trying to game the system

At each school you would have a high medium and low track.

Capitol Hill is the classic case of overcompliaction. If everyone would just go to their zoned school things would be fine

Says another individual who either didn't live here, or didn't have school aged children in the 90s.

If you didn't experience what it was like here before school choice - you can't really comment.

Let those of us who fought for the charter movement and kicked and screaming and clawed to get the OOB lottery what is tell you a bit about when everyone went to their IB school.

Pull up a chair youngster.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: The more time I spend thinking and reading and working on this question, the more I'm convinced that what we have is a housing problem, not an education problem. I don't think we can have socioeconomically integrated educational systems when we have such chronically segregated neighborhoods.

You can't mandate where adults choose to live. Even if affordable and/or government housing is built in areas with high SES, it doesn't necessarily mean that low SES people will want to move there. However, the Supreme Court has held that socioeconomic diversity can be mandated in schools -- someone from one zip code can be required to attend school in another zip code. However, race cannot be the only factor considered.

[Anonymous]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/29/washington/29scotus.html?_r=0

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: The more time I spend thinking and reading and working on this question, the more I'm convinced that what we have is a housing problem, not an education problem. I don't think we can have socioeconomically integrated educational systems when we have such chronically segregated neighborhoods.

You can't mandate where adults choose to live. Even if affordable and/or government housing is built in areas with high SES, it doesn't necessarily mean that low SES people will want to move there. However, the Supreme Court has held that socioeconomic diversity can be mandated in schools -- someone from one zip code can be required to attend school in another zip code. However, race cannot be the only factor considered.

And this is why the suburbs exploded and people choose private schools. Try to send a child from a family with choices to an awful school, and you've just lost that family from the system.

Whiteflight 3.0

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: The more time I spend thinking and reading and working on this question, the more I'm convinced that what we have is a housing problem, not an education problem. I don't think we can have socioeconomically integrated educational systems when we have such chronically segregated neighborhoods.

You can't mandate where adults choose to live. Even if affordable and/or government housing is built in areas with high SES, it doesn't necessarily mean that low SES people will want to move there. However, the Supreme Court has held that socioeconomic diversity can be mandated in schools -- someone from one zip code can be required to attend school in another zip code. However, race cannot be the only factor considered.

And this is why the suburbs exploded and people choose private schools. Try to send a child from a family with choices to an awful school, and you've just lost that family from the system.

Whiteflight 3.0

On the flip side, a child with a terrible neighborhood school can be required to attend a highly ranked school and be provided with the transportation to get there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a high SES person with kids of color, this site and many of these highly sought after DC schools are tough to handle. Many people here assume their kids are being pulled down by kids like mine because we dont live on the hill or in ward 2. (Sorry, We dont wear our ivy league degrees on our shoulders.) Schools use achievements of kids like mine to show off their "success" in closing the gap when in reality, my kids would be achieving without their help. I sometimes wish the school would publish some of the test scores from families like mine... so you can see a lot of us "lottery" folks have kids that blow the roof off your kids' test scores."

If you don't think most people can figure out the difference between skin color and SES, then I feel sorry for you.

In any event, I don't believe all low SES kids are capable of achieving. Some can. Others are gifted, and probably not having their talents recognized. But there is too much lead exposure, fetal alcohol syndrome, and other issues that impact brain development at much higher rates than higher SES kids. Schools can fix some elements of being disadvantaged, such as through Head Start, but schools can fix physical damage to brains.

Note, I'm not referring to AA kids. This can be true for kids of any skin colors, depending on their circumstances.

Yes, yes, and yes again!!!! Want to read more about the impact of Lead in paint, especially in DC go back and google old Washingtonian article. Used to work in social services and we frequently talked about how lots of the poor impulse, aggression, and violence issues in DC was linked to lead but no one studied it and followed the kids for educational impact. There is only so much remediation that can be done, do your write off those kids, NO but you provide appropriate education and acknowledge where they are at. Rhee's and her follower's ideology that all kids can go to college if they have the right teacher in the classroom was foolhardy, we should accept the different nature of all of our students and educate them to ensure some level of success in life. Having high school students who are reading at a 4th grade level struggle through texts on grade level is not beneficial for anyone, bring back a modernized-level of voc. education and allow principals and teachers more flexibility to adapt the curriculum or at least offer different levels of classes. Classroom differentiation can only stretch so far.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: The more time I spend thinking and reading and working on this question, the more I'm convinced that what we have is a housing problem, not an education problem. I don't think we can have socioeconomically integrated educational systems when we have such chronically segregated neighborhoods.

You can't mandate where adults choose to live. Even if affordable and/or government housing is built in areas with high SES, it doesn't necessarily mean that low SES people will want to move there. However, the Supreme Court has held that socioeconomic diversity can be mandated in schools -- someone from one zip code can be required to attend school in another zip code. However, race cannot be the only factor considered.

And this is why the suburbs exploded and people choose private schools. Try to send a child from a family with choices to an awful school, and you've just lost that family from the system.

Whiteflight 3.0

On the flip side, a child with a terrible neighborhood school can be required to attend a highly ranked school and be provided with the transportation to get there.

Sure, bussing worked in one direction, it just didn't work in the other.