Michelle O doesn't wear a headscarf in Saudi Arabia

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It's not alien to me, I was raised Muslim. But "culture" or "religion" don't get passes on misogyny and sexism, for those reasons. Believe me - I already know a conservative Saudi male doesn't care what I or any other woman thinks.

Sexism is cultural. A conservative Saudi male will think you are being sexist by openly looking at a woman, and he is being respectful of her by not inconveniencing her with his gaze. A conservative Muslim woman will not want to suffer your looks. Who are you to tell her that she should?

What would you say if someone said "I don't shake hands with black people." Or "I don't shake hands with Muslims." It's equally absurd as saying "I don't shake hands with women."

You can shake hands with no one, if you like. But it's disgusting to say you won't shake hands with an entire group of people because of antiquated, backwards "culture." The way those Saudi men treated Michelle Obama (and likely women in general) is abhorrent. Don't try to justify it because of "culture."

I feel completely comfortable saying "I don't undress in front of men" or "I don't deliberately touch men other than my husband." Yes, that is selective treatment of a whole group of people. I'm fine with that.

Shaking hands is not a pinnacle of respect you think it is. There are ways to show respect and attention to someone without physical contact. The forms in which respect is shown is cultural.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It's not alien to me, I was raised Muslim. But "culture" or "religion" don't get passes on misogyny and sexism, for those reasons. Believe me - I already know a conservative Saudi male doesn't care what I or any other woman thinks.

Sexism is cultural. A conservative Saudi male will think you are being sexist by openly looking at a woman, and he is being respectful of her by not inconveniencing her with his gaze. A conservative Muslim woman will not want to suffer your looks. Who are you to tell her that she should?

Saying sexism is "cultural," is like saying racism is cultural. Just because it may be the norm in a certain niche or region, doesn't make it ok by overarching human values.

Michelle Obama is not a conservative Muslim woman, and I don't think she takes any offense to shaking a man's hand. Nor do many/most Muslim women. Cultural relativist bullshit concerning sexism doesn't have a place in modernity.

And yet it does, and your indignation doesn't make it go away. If a conservative person doesn't wish to shake hands with a person of an opposite gender, that is their right. Who are you to force physical contact on people who don't desire it?

No one is preventing Michelle Obama from shaking hands with people who don't mind it.

Nobody is saying that. You don't want to shake hands with one particular person? Ok. But there is no equivalence in saying you don't shake hands with an entire demographic, based strictly on sexism. Just like it's not ok to say you don't shake hands with black people, because you just respect them so much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don't know, OP. Sounds like you're the one having a hard time reconciling it. You brought it up and all.

No, you're wrong about that. I just enjoy poking my finger in the eye of idiot conservatives.

But you kind of sound like a shrill idiot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It's not alien to me, I was raised Muslim. But "culture" or "religion" don't get passes on misogyny and sexism, for those reasons. Believe me - I already know a conservative Saudi male doesn't care what I or any other woman thinks.

Sexism is cultural. A conservative Saudi male will think you are being sexist by openly looking at a woman, and he is being respectful of her by not inconveniencing her with his gaze. A conservative Muslim woman will not want to suffer your looks. Who are you to tell her that she should?

What would you say if someone said "I don't shake hands with black people." Or "I don't shake hands with Muslims." It's equally absurd as saying "I don't shake hands with women."

You can shake hands with no one, if you like. But it's disgusting to say you won't shake hands with an entire group of people because of antiquated, backwards "culture." The way those Saudi men treated Michelle Obama (and likely women in general) is abhorrent. Don't try to justify it because of "culture."

Really, I see it as a sign of great respect. He put her on a pedestal and he was not worthy to touch her.

That's in the same vein as the Saudis who say women shouldn't drive, because it might damage their fragile uteruses, and they're just trying to protect the women because they respect them so much.

Sorry, but that's some seriously insane logic. Saying you're not worthy enough to treat her as an equal, without even asking her? Not asking her, not acknowledging her is "respect?" Wut?

I can drive better than you Americans even with my face covered.

Not in KSA you can't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It's not alien to me, I was raised Muslim. But "culture" or "religion" don't get passes on misogyny and sexism, for those reasons. Believe me - I already know a conservative Saudi male doesn't care what I or any other woman thinks.

Sexism is cultural. A conservative Saudi male will think you are being sexist by openly looking at a woman, and he is being respectful of her by not inconveniencing her with his gaze. A conservative Muslim woman will not want to suffer your looks. Who are you to tell her that she should?

Saying sexism is "cultural," is like saying racism is cultural. Just because it may be the norm in a certain niche or region, doesn't make it ok by overarching human values.

Michelle Obama is not a conservative Muslim woman, and I don't think she takes any offense to shaking a man's hand. Nor do many/most Muslim women. Cultural relativist bullshit concerning sexism doesn't have a place in modernity.

And yet it does, and your indignation doesn't make it go away. If a conservative person doesn't wish to shake hands with a person of an opposite gender, that is their right. Who are you to force physical contact on people who don't desire it?

No one is preventing Michelle Obama from shaking hands with people who don't mind it.

Nobody is saying that. You don't want to shake hands with one particular person? Ok. But there is no equivalence in saying you don't shake hands with an entire demographic, based strictly on sexism. Just like it's not ok to say you don't shake hands with black people, because you just respect them so much.

It's completely OK to avoid unwanted physical contact with people you don't want.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Arrogant American" is what they will say.

She's been that for years. Why should she class it up now?

Because wearing a headscarf would have been the classy choice?

Respecting the norm in your host country? Yes, that would have been class.

Snarling your way through the event without one? Not so much.

Curious if the PP has ever visited a gulf country? Specifically Saudi Arabia? "Respecting the norm" in KSA means that as a woman you cannot walk on the sidewalk alone, drive a car, speak with men who are not your husband. In many cases, women will eat separately from their families because they are not allowed to show their face to men they aren't married to. It means that when I travelled there for business, I needed a male colleague to travel with me to function as my "chaperone". It means I had my passport confiscated for over an hour by ignorant airport employees because I wasn't with my husband, and couldn't sit in the lobby of my hotel alone. My colleague had to call me from our hotel lobby when our car was ready to drive to our meetings. For the record, I was doing business with an arm of the Saudi government and I also wore suits to my meetings. I also didn't cover my hair, since those "rules" apply only to Muslim women.

What would crazy conservatives say if Michelle had showed up in an abaya? Like another PP said, she can't win in this situation.

She respected the norm because she's a VIP and the norms that apply to her are different from the norms that apply to you, a regular person.

What are you talking about?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It's not alien to me, I was raised Muslim. But "culture" or "religion" don't get passes on misogyny and sexism, for those reasons. Believe me - I already know a conservative Saudi male doesn't care what I or any other woman thinks.

Sexism is cultural. A conservative Saudi male will think you are being sexist by openly looking at a woman, and he is being respectful of her by not inconveniencing her with his gaze. A conservative Muslim woman will not want to suffer your looks. Who are you to tell her that she should?

What would you say if someone said "I don't shake hands with black people." Or "I don't shake hands with Muslims." It's equally absurd as saying "I don't shake hands with women."

You can shake hands with no one, if you like. But it's disgusting to say you won't shake hands with an entire group of people because of antiquated, backwards "culture." The way those Saudi men treated Michelle Obama (and likely women in general) is abhorrent. Don't try to justify it because of "culture."

Really, I see it as a sign of great respect. He put her on a pedestal and he was not worthy to touch her.

That's in the same vein as the Saudis who say women shouldn't drive, because it might damage their fragile uteruses, and they're just trying to protect the women because they respect them so much.

Sorry, but that's some seriously insane logic. Saying you're not worthy enough to treat her as an equal, without even asking her? Not asking her, not acknowledging her is "respect?" Wut?

I can drive better than you Americans even with my face covered.

Not in KSA you can't.

That picture was taken in KSA....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It's not alien to me, I was raised Muslim. But "culture" or "religion" don't get passes on misogyny and sexism, for those reasons. Believe me - I already know a conservative Saudi male doesn't care what I or any other woman thinks.

Sexism is cultural. A conservative Saudi male will think you are being sexist by openly looking at a woman, and he is being respectful of her by not inconveniencing her with his gaze. A conservative Muslim woman will not want to suffer your looks. Who are you to tell her that she should?

Saying sexism is "cultural," is like saying racism is cultural. Just because it may be the norm in a certain niche or region, doesn't make it ok by overarching human values.

Michelle Obama is not a conservative Muslim woman, and I don't think she takes any offense to shaking a man's hand. Nor do many/most Muslim women. Cultural relativist bullshit concerning sexism doesn't have a place in modernity.

And yet it does, and your indignation doesn't make it go away. If a conservative person doesn't wish to shake hands with a person of an opposite gender, that is their right. Who are you to force physical contact on people who don't desire it?

No one is preventing Michelle Obama from shaking hands with people who don't mind it.

Nobody is saying that. You don't want to shake hands with one particular person? Ok. But there is no equivalence in saying you don't shake hands with an entire demographic, based strictly on sexism. Just like it's not ok to say you don't shake hands with black people, because you just respect them so much.

Good thing that although the media chose to show one guy not shaking her had, a lot of other Saudis DID. Newsflash, some news organizations manipulate tha truth.

[Anonymous]

The flu is going around. Stop shaking hands!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It's not alien to me, I was raised Muslim. But "culture" or "religion" don't get passes on misogyny and sexism, for those reasons. Believe me - I already know a conservative Saudi male doesn't care what I or any other woman thinks.

Sexism is cultural. A conservative Saudi male will think you are being sexist by openly looking at a woman, and he is being respectful of her by not inconveniencing her with his gaze. A conservative Muslim woman will not want to suffer your looks. Who are you to tell her that she should?

Saying sexism is "cultural," is like saying racism is cultural. Just because it may be the norm in a certain niche or region, doesn't make it ok by overarching human values.

Michelle Obama is not a conservative Muslim woman, and I don't think she takes any offense to shaking a man's hand. Nor do many/most Muslim women. Cultural relativist bullshit concerning sexism doesn't have a place in modernity.

And yet it does, and your indignation doesn't make it go away. If a conservative person doesn't wish to shake hands with a person of an opposite gender, that is their right. Who are you to force physical contact on people who don't desire it?

No one is preventing Michelle Obama from shaking hands with people who don't mind it.

Nobody is saying that. You don't want to shake hands with one particular person? Ok. But there is no equivalence in saying you don't shake hands with an entire demographic, based strictly on sexism. Just like it's not ok to say you don't shake hands with black people, because you just respect them so much.

Good thing that although the media chose to show one guy not shaking her had, a lot of other Saudis DID. Newsflash, some news organizations manipulate tha truth.

I did see that some of the Saudi men did shake her hands. Good on those dignitaries. Not all Saudi men are sexist d-bags hiding behind "culture" or "religion." Many, yes--but not all.

[Anonymous]

There's nothing wrong with alternative forms of greeting. Shaking hands isn't a gold standard.

[Anonymous]

I have to admit I don't wear a head scarf in KSA since Im not Muslim but, I would have worn one to the Kings funeral. If I was going to go to his funeral to show respect, I would have respected his religion too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It's not alien to me, I was raised Muslim. But "culture" or "religion" don't get passes on misogyny and sexism, for those reasons. Believe me - I already know a conservative Saudi male doesn't care what I or any other woman thinks.

Sexism is cultural. A conservative Saudi male will think you are being sexist by openly looking at a woman, and he is being respectful of her by not inconveniencing her with his gaze. A conservative Muslim woman will not want to suffer your looks. Who are you to tell her that she should?

What would you say if someone said "I don't shake hands with black people." Or "I don't shake hands with Muslims." It's equally absurd as saying "I don't shake hands with women."

You can shake hands with no one, if you like. But it's disgusting to say you won't shake hands with an entire group of people because of antiquated, backwards "culture." The way those Saudi men treated Michelle Obama (and likely women in general) is abhorrent. Don't try to justify it because of "culture."

I feel completely comfortable saying "I don't undress in front of men" or "I don't deliberately touch men other than my husband." Yes, that is selective treatment of a whole group of people. I'm fine with that.

Shaking hands is not a pinnacle of respect you think it is. There are ways to show respect and attention to someone without physical contact. The forms in which respect is shown is cultural.

This reminded me of the time that we hosted a bunch of international law students at my agency. One of them was from KSA (nice kid). At the end of the day they all formed a little receiving line for the presenters - I was the only woman among the presenters. When I got the the KSA kid he did not extend his hand to me and I did not either (I knew about the touching thing). Instead he put the hand over heart, smiled, nodded and said "As-salamu alaykum" (s?). I think he appreciated that I did not put him in a awkward situation and I have to say that that gesture showed more respect than any of clammy limp handshakes that I got that day. The absence of an handshake (by some in the group) does not mean that Michelle as disrespected.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm looking forward to the mouthbreather reaction to this one. Will they be able to reconcile their hatred for Michelle O. with their hatred for Islam?

http://wtop.com/world/2015/01/reaction-michelle-obama-doesnt-wear-headscarf-saudi-arabia/

Why are you so polemical? Its possible to be a conservative woman and all in for women's right. The first lady showed a great side of America with her stately presence and choice. What is the issue exactly?

Because conservatives seem to make a point of criticizing Michelle Obama at every turn. I wonder if their heads exploded with this one. Because, as is demonstrated fact, conservatives aren't smart, so cognitive dissonance tends to confuzzle them.

No our heads didn't explode. Also, saying I'm not smart is a put down. Is your party the woman put down party? I'm.a.conservative woman and you've issued a blanket statement that I can't be smart? Not only am.i smart, but I'm nuanced. Just like our president.

[Anonymous]

Go Michelle. She was respectful enough IMO by not showing off any skin on her body and by wearing loose clothing, but she still made a statement with the bright beautiful jacket. I am woman, hear me rawr! She's a bright and well educated woman who was successful in her own right. I'm sure it's hard for her to be in such a sexist country and at least she followed code in dress. If she wore tight clothing and showed off some skin then it may have been overboard. This was fine IMHO.