Michelle O doesn't wear a headscarf in Saudi Arabia

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It's not alien to me, I was raised Muslim. But "culture" or "religion" don't get passes on misogyny and sexism, for those reasons. Believe me - I already know a conservative Saudi male doesn't care what I or any other woman thinks.

Sexism is cultural. A conservative Saudi male will think you are being sexist by openly looking at a woman, and he is being respectful of her by not inconveniencing her with his gaze. A conservative Muslim woman will not want to suffer your looks. Who are you to tell her that she should?

Saying sexism is "cultural," is like saying racism is cultural. Just because it may be the norm in a certain niche or region, doesn't make it ok by overarching human values.

Michelle Obama is not a conservative Muslim woman, and I don't think she takes any offense to shaking a man's hand. Nor do many/most Muslim women. Cultural relativist bullshit concerning sexism doesn't have a place in modernity.

[Anonymous]

Pictures of Laura Bush in Saudi Arabia - no head scarf.
http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2008/05/20080516-19.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Arrogant American" is what they will say.

She's been that for years. Why should she class it up now?

Because wearing a headscarf would have been the classy choice?

Respecting the norm in your host country? Yes, that would have been class.

Snarling your way through the event without one? Not so much.

Curious if the PP has ever visited a gulf country? Specifically Saudi Arabia? "Respecting the norm" in KSA means that as a woman you cannot walk on the sidewalk alone, drive a car, speak with men who are not your husband. In many cases, women will eat separately from their families because they are not allowed to show their face to men they aren't married to. It means that when I travelled there for business, I needed a male colleague to travel with me to function as my "chaperone". It means I had my passport confiscated for over an hour by ignorant airport employees because I wasn't with my husband, and couldn't sit in the lobby of my hotel alone. My colleague had to call me from our hotel lobby when our car was ready to drive to our meetings. For the record, I was doing business with an arm of the Saudi government and I also wore suits to my meetings. I also didn't cover my hair, since those "rules" apply only to Muslim women.

What would crazy conservatives say if Michelle had showed up in an abaya? Like another PP said, she can't win in this situation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It's not alien to me, I was raised Muslim. But "culture" or "religion" don't get passes on misogyny and sexism, for those reasons. Believe me - I already know a conservative Saudi male doesn't care what I or any other woman thinks.

Sexism is cultural. A conservative Saudi male will think you are being sexist by openly looking at a woman, and he is being respectful of her by not inconveniencing her with his gaze. A conservative Muslim woman will not want to suffer your looks. Who are you to tell her that she should?

What would you say if someone said "I don't shake hands with black people." Or "I don't shake hands with Muslims." It's equally absurd as saying "I don't shake hands with women."

You can shake hands with no one, if you like. But it's disgusting to say you won't shake hands with an entire group of people because of antiquated, backwards "culture." The way those Saudi men treated Michelle Obama (and likely women in general) is abhorrent. Don't try to justify it because of "culture."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Laura Bush also didn't wear a headscarf when she visited Saudi.

I think this is the right decision. Wearing a headscarf should be a personal decision, and no one should be pressured to wear one - Muslim or not, political visit or not.

I also think it was smart of her to attend the meeting of the dignitaries. It highlights the absolute backwardsness of conservative Saudi's in their total ignoring of women. A few men acknowledged her and shook her hand, but most pretended she didn't even exist standing there. That looks bad for Saudi Arabia. It's shameful.

Good for Michelle O! Love her!

Touching an unrelated female is actual prohibited under Islam (do remember which sect), so this is not really ignoring. The article I read stated that the one who did not shake nodded - which I understand is an acceptable alternative to hand shakes.

This is not true. It's what some very conservative Muslims believe, but is by no means is it a prohibition in Islam. It's extremely rude of them.

I was raised Muslim, and a nod is not an "acceptable alternative" - it's highly offensive. It means you're painting me as someone who will taint you, or you can't control yourself around me (or other women). It's rude and highly offensive.

WRONG WRONG WRONG
He nodded is head down. If his head had nodded it up it would have meant something different in Middle Eastern culture. Also, in Saudi Arabia non-Muslim women are not required to cover their face or hair. Yes, some traditional Muslim men do not like to touch unrelated females, that includes handshake's-just like Orthodox Jews (Orthadox jewish women also cover their hair).

I don't like to wear pants in public, but I do so because it's polite to my fellow human beings. "Like" is irrelevant, whether you're Muslim, Jewish, Christian, atheist, or whatever. There are things you do out of respect - like acknowledging people. Acknowledging women as people, not as sexual beings that will transmit cooties to you. A handshake is pretty universal - if a Muslim man can shale a male's hand, they can shake a female's hand. This isn't about religion, it's about inherent cultural misogyny. That shit needs to change.

You are an ignorant fool. If for what ever reason an Orthodox Jew or Muslim or Japanese doesn't want to shake a woman's hand that is their right. Especially in THEIR COUNTRY and, its that countries custom/cultural practice. Shaking hands is not Universal. Your cultural ignorance is amazing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It's not alien to me, I was raised Muslim. But "culture" or "religion" don't get passes on misogyny and sexism, for those reasons. Believe me - I already know a conservative Saudi male doesn't care what I or any other woman thinks.

Sexism is cultural. A conservative Saudi male will think you are being sexist by openly looking at a woman, and he is being respectful of her by not inconveniencing her with his gaze. A conservative Muslim woman will not want to suffer your looks. Who are you to tell her that she should?

What would you say if someone said "I don't shake hands with black people." Or "I don't shake hands with Muslims." It's equally absurd as saying "I don't shake hands with women."

You can shake hands with no one, if you like. But it's disgusting to say you won't shake hands with an entire group of people because of antiquated, backwards "culture." The way those Saudi men treated Michelle Obama (and likely women in general) is abhorrent. Don't try to justify it because of "culture."

Really, I see it as a sign of great respect. He put her on a pedestal and he was not worthy to touch her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Laura Bush also didn't wear a headscarf when she visited Saudi.

I think this is the right decision. Wearing a headscarf should be a personal decision, and no one should be pressured to wear one - Muslim or not, political visit or not.

I also think it was smart of her to attend the meeting of the dignitaries. It highlights the absolute backwardsness of conservative Saudi's in their total ignoring of women. A few men acknowledged her and shook her hand, but most pretended she didn't even exist standing there. That looks bad for Saudi Arabia. It's shameful.

Good for Michelle O! Love her!

Touching an unrelated female is actual prohibited under Islam (do remember which sect), so this is not really ignoring. The article I read stated that the one who did not shake nodded - which I understand is an acceptable alternative to hand shakes.

This is not true. It's what some very conservative Muslims believe, but is by no means is it a prohibition in Islam. It's extremely rude of them.

I was raised Muslim, and a nod is not an "acceptable alternative" - it's highly offensive. It means you're painting me as someone who will taint you, or you can't control yourself around me (or other women). It's rude and highly offensive.

WRONG WRONG WRONG
He nodded is head down. If his head had nodded it up it would have meant something different in Middle Eastern culture. Also, in Saudi Arabia non-Muslim women are not required to cover their face or hair. Yes, some traditional Muslim men do not like to touch unrelated females, that includes handshake's-just like Orthodox Jews (Orthadox jewish women also cover their hair).

I don't like to wear pants in public, but I do so because it's polite to my fellow human beings. "Like" is irrelevant, whether you're Muslim, Jewish, Christian, atheist, or whatever. There are things you do out of respect - like acknowledging people. Acknowledging women as people, not as sexual beings that will transmit cooties to you. A handshake is pretty universal - if a Muslim man can shale a male's hand, they can shake a female's hand. This isn't about religion, it's about inherent cultural misogyny. That shit needs to change.

You are an ignorant fool. If for what ever reason an Orthodox Jew or Muslim or Japanese doesn't want to shake a woman's hand that is their right. Especially in THEIR COUNTRY and, its that countries custom/cultural practice. Shaking hands is not Universal. Your cultural ignorance is amazing.

What's the difference between saying you won't shake hands with a woman, and saying you won't shake hands with a black person? Or saying you only shake hands with Christians, but don't shake hands with Jews?

This isn't about some kind of cultural norm - shaking hands is normal and common in Saudi Arabia. Don't play stupid. But they're advocating sanctioned sexism by not recognizing an entire group of people, for no reason. It's not acceptable, any more than not shaking hands with a black person is unacceptable, because of state sanctioned racism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It's not alien to me, I was raised Muslim. But "culture" or "religion" don't get passes on misogyny and sexism, for those reasons. Believe me - I already know a conservative Saudi male doesn't care what I or any other woman thinks.

Sexism is cultural. A conservative Saudi male will think you are being sexist by openly looking at a woman, and he is being respectful of her by not inconveniencing her with his gaze. A conservative Muslim woman will not want to suffer your looks. Who are you to tell her that she should?

What would you say if someone said "I don't shake hands with black people." Or "I don't shake hands with Muslims." It's equally absurd as saying "I don't shake hands with women."

You can shake hands with no one, if you like. But it's disgusting to say you won't shake hands with an entire group of people because of antiquated, backwards "culture." The way those Saudi men treated Michelle Obama (and likely women in general) is abhorrent. Don't try to justify it because of "culture."

Really, I see it as a sign of great respect. He put her on a pedestal and he was not worthy to touch her.

HAHAHAHA.

That's hilarious.

- ex-Muslim female

(ps) Thank you for the belly laugh!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It's not alien to me, I was raised Muslim. But "culture" or "religion" don't get passes on misogyny and sexism, for those reasons. Believe me - I already know a conservative Saudi male doesn't care what I or any other woman thinks.

Sexism is cultural. A conservative Saudi male will think you are being sexist by openly looking at a woman, and he is being respectful of her by not inconveniencing her with his gaze. A conservative Muslim woman will not want to suffer your looks. Who are you to tell her that she should?

What would you say if someone said "I don't shake hands with black people." Or "I don't shake hands with Muslims." It's equally absurd as saying "I don't shake hands with women."

You can shake hands with no one, if you like. But it's disgusting to say you won't shake hands with an entire group of people because of antiquated, backwards "culture." The way those Saudi men treated Michelle Obama (and likely women in general) is abhorrent. Don't try to justify it because of "culture."

Really, I see it as a sign of great respect. He put her on a pedestal and he was not worthy to touch her.

That's in the same vein as the Saudis who say women shouldn't drive, because it might damage their fragile uteruses, and they're just trying to protect the women because they respect them so much.

Sorry, but that's some seriously insane logic. Saying you're not worthy enough to treat her as an equal, without even asking her? Not asking her, not acknowledging her is "respect?" Wut?

[Anonymous]

Ted Cruz's FB post:


Ted Cruz
4 hrs ·
Kudos to First Lady Michelle Obama for standing up for women worldwide and refusing to wear a Sharia-mandated head-scarf in Saudi Arabia. Nicely done.


I don't understand why OP thought conservatives would be apoplectic about this issue?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Pictures of Laura Bush in Saudi Arabia - no head scarf.
http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2008/05/20080516-19.html

Hillary Clinton in Saudi Arabia with no head scarf and getting a handshake. They just respected her more.
http://secretaryclinton.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/610x-23.jpg?w=600

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It's not alien to me, I was raised Muslim. But "culture" or "religion" don't get passes on misogyny and sexism, for those reasons. Believe me - I already know a conservative Saudi male doesn't care what I or any other woman thinks.

Sexism is cultural. A conservative Saudi male will think you are being sexist by openly looking at a woman, and he is being respectful of her by not inconveniencing her with his gaze. A conservative Muslim woman will not want to suffer your looks. Who are you to tell her that she should?

What would you say if someone said "I don't shake hands with black people." Or "I don't shake hands with Muslims." It's equally absurd as saying "I don't shake hands with women."

You can shake hands with no one, if you like. But it's disgusting to say you won't shake hands with an entire group of people because of antiquated, backwards "culture." The way those Saudi men treated Michelle Obama (and likely women in general) is abhorrent. Don't try to justify it because of "culture."

Really, I see it as a sign of great respect. He put her on a pedestal and he was not worthy to touch her.

That's in the same vein as the Saudis who say women shouldn't drive, because it might damage their fragile uteruses, and they're just trying to protect the women because they respect them so much.

Sorry, but that's some seriously insane logic. Saying you're not worthy enough to treat her as an equal, without even asking her? Not asking her, not acknowledging her is "respect?" Wut?

I can drive better than you Americans even with my face covered.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Arrogant American" is what they will say.

She's been that for years. Why should she class it up now?

Because wearing a headscarf would have been the classy choice?

Respecting the norm in your host country? Yes, that would have been class.

Snarling your way through the event without one? Not so much.

Curious if the PP has ever visited a gulf country? Specifically Saudi Arabia? "Respecting the norm" in KSA means that as a woman you cannot walk on the sidewalk alone, drive a car, speak with men who are not your husband. In many cases, women will eat separately from their families because they are not allowed to show their face to men they aren't married to. It means that when I travelled there for business, I needed a male colleague to travel with me to function as my "chaperone". It means I had my passport confiscated for over an hour by ignorant airport employees because I wasn't with my husband, and couldn't sit in the lobby of my hotel alone. My colleague had to call me from our hotel lobby when our car was ready to drive to our meetings. For the record, I was doing business with an arm of the Saudi government and I also wore suits to my meetings. I also didn't cover my hair, since those "rules" apply only to Muslim women.

What would crazy conservatives say if Michelle had showed up in an abaya? Like another PP said, she can't win in this situation.

She respected the norm because she's a VIP and the norms that apply to her are different from the norms that apply to you, a regular person.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It's not alien to me, I was raised Muslim. But "culture" or "religion" don't get passes on misogyny and sexism, for those reasons. Believe me - I already know a conservative Saudi male doesn't care what I or any other woman thinks.

Sexism is cultural. A conservative Saudi male will think you are being sexist by openly looking at a woman, and he is being respectful of her by not inconveniencing her with his gaze. A conservative Muslim woman will not want to suffer your looks. Who are you to tell her that she should?

What would you say if someone said "I don't shake hands with black people." Or "I don't shake hands with Muslims." It's equally absurd as saying "I don't shake hands with women."

You can shake hands with no one, if you like. But it's disgusting to say you won't shake hands with an entire group of people because of antiquated, backwards "culture." The way those Saudi men treated Michelle Obama (and likely women in general) is abhorrent. Don't try to justify it because of "culture."

Really, I see it as a sign of great respect. He put her on a pedestal and he was not worthy to touch her.

That's in the same vein as the Saudis who say women shouldn't drive, because it might damage their fragile uteruses, and they're just trying to protect the women because they respect them so much.

Sorry, but that's some seriously insane logic. Saying you're not worthy enough to treat her as an equal, without even asking her? Not asking her, not acknowledging her is "respect?" Wut?

I can drive better than you Americans even with my face covered.

That seatbelt highlights your figure nicely. It's form fitting to your small waist

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It's not alien to me, I was raised Muslim. But "culture" or "religion" don't get passes on misogyny and sexism, for those reasons. Believe me - I already know a conservative Saudi male doesn't care what I or any other woman thinks.

Sexism is cultural. A conservative Saudi male will think you are being sexist by openly looking at a woman, and he is being respectful of her by not inconveniencing her with his gaze. A conservative Muslim woman will not want to suffer your looks. Who are you to tell her that she should?

Saying sexism is "cultural," is like saying racism is cultural. Just because it may be the norm in a certain niche or region, doesn't make it ok by overarching human values.

Michelle Obama is not a conservative Muslim woman, and I don't think she takes any offense to shaking a man's hand. Nor do many/most Muslim women. Cultural relativist bullshit concerning sexism doesn't have a place in modernity.

And yet it does, and your indignation doesn't make it go away. If a conservative person doesn't wish to shake hands with a person of an opposite gender, that is their right. Who are you to force physical contact on people who don't desire it?

No one is preventing Michelle Obama from shaking hands with people who don't mind it.