ACPS and TJ

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a new resident of the City and I am not as pessimistic as folks above. Yes, there are resource constraints - jurisdictions all across the region face them. But the number of new tax paying properties coming on line IS going to help in the not too distant future. And yes, the primary concern of ACPS is going to be, and should be, teaching the large number of kids for whom poverty is their principle challenge. But it seems clear to me that the TAG advisory comm at least supports access to TJHSST, and I do think that addressing the cost issues, whether by creative solutions to the transportation issue (note well rte 236 is a priority corridor in WMATA's plans for metrobus) or by improved finances for the City, will gradually shift the conversation.

I am also not convinced there will be a major increase over time in the FARMs percentages. Sure, in the next year or two we will get more immigrant kids in the older grades. But over time we will be losing market rate affordable units as they are either torn down and replaced by new units, as in the Beauregard area, or as buildings are renovated and rents increase. Its possible that in a few older hirises in Landmark real rents will decrease, but I think that will at most offset trends elsewhere in the City. And that is true DESPITE policies to replace public housing units and to reserve some of the new Beauregard units as income capped (less than 10% IIUC.) I think some elementary schols are already considered desirable despite the current FARMs percentages, and I expect that to continue, and possibly increase.

Does that mean Alexandria is about to turn into another Arlington? No. But it does not have to, for the gloom and doom forecasts to prove false.

The problem is everything you say was being said in 1995 and also in 2005. The demographics are going to change, the tax base is going to strengthen, etc.

What you don't seem to grasp is the TAG committee has no real influence in policy making in ACPS. Nobody has any interest in catering to gifted and high-achieving students so long as there are struggling masses.

Some ACPS elementary schools are more desirable than others, but none are really desirable in the context of sought-after school districts elsewhere in the region. No one moves to Alexandria for MacArthur, for example. People do move to Arlington for Jamestown, Nottingham, and McKinley (among others).

So, as much as I admire your optimism, I'm just warning you that you haven't exactly discovered some new insight. This is the same story it's been for 20 years.

[Anonymous]

The general shift to living in the region's center was not happening in 1995, and certainly not the scale of development. 2005 it may have been but then change got tangled up with the economic crisis. I really do see the city on an upswing in ways I have not seen before (I have been in the region for the entire period you mention) You can see it in total population and other indicators.

As for people not moving to Alexandria for a MacArthur or LCTA or Mason, as I said above, Alexandria does not need to be Arlington. I don't know that having people move to Alexandria specifically for the schools is a worthwhile goal - certainly not in the short to medium term.

And I find your use of the term masses quite confusing (as well as offputting) The middle class non-gifted folks in Fairfax County are the masses, really. You seem more troubled that Alexandria wants to educate the poor. You also seem to imply an undifferentiated elite - I think the differences between high SES families non gifted kids, ordinary gifted kids, and the profoundly gifted are all quite different. Appealing to the high SES is mostly a real estate and economics problem. Alexandria does well enough with the childless (and those who prefer private schools) that I do not see it as a huge issue. Ordinary gifted kids may not be served as well as they should be in ACPS, or as they are in FCPS, but that has little to do with TJHSST. And they may well manage among the AP course at TCW. For the profoundly gifted, the failure to provide adequate challenge, and an appropriate social environment, is in my opinion a serious issue - like failing to provide accommodations to the learning disabled. However I do not think any local county shines on that. And I do not think turning the focus from the poor to the middle class, or the generic upper middle class, will really address that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a new resident of the City and I am not as pessimistic as folks above. Yes, there are resource constraints - jurisdictions all across the region face them. But the number of new tax paying properties coming on line IS going to help in the not too distant future. And yes, the primary concern of ACPS is going to be, and should be, teaching the large number of kids for whom poverty is their principle challenge. But it seems clear to me that the TAG advisory comm at least supports access to TJHSST, and I do think that addressing the cost issues, whether by creative solutions to the transportation issue (note well rte 236 is a priority corridor in WMATA's plans for metrobus) or by improved finances for the City, will gradually shift the conversation.

I am also not convinced there will be a major increase over time in the FARMs percentages. Sure, in the next year or two we will get more immigrant kids in the older grades. But over time we will be losing market rate affordable units as they are either torn down and replaced by new units, as in the Beauregard area, or as buildings are renovated and rents increase. Its possible that in a few older hirises in Landmark real rents will decrease, but I think that will at most offset trends elsewhere in the City. And that is true DESPITE policies to replace public housing units and to reserve some of the new Beauregard units as income capped (less than 10% IIUC.) I think some elementary schols are already considered desirable despite the current FARMs percentages, and I expect that to continue, and possibly increase.

Does that mean Alexandria is about to turn into another Arlington? No. But it does not have to, for the gloom and doom forecasts to prove false.

The problem is everything you say was being said in 1995 and also in 2005. The demographics are going to change, the tax base is going to strengthen, etc.

What you don't seem to grasp is the TAG committee has no real influence in policy making in ACPS. Nobody has any interest in catering to gifted and high-achieving students so long as there are struggling masses.

Some ACPS elementary schools are more desirable than others, but none are really desirable in the context of sought-after school districts elsewhere in the region. No one moves to Alexandria for MacArthur, for example. People do move to Arlington for Jamestown, Nottingham, and McKinley (among others).

So, as much as I admire your optimism, I'm just warning you that you haven't exactly discovered some new insight. This is the same story it's been for 20 years.

+1000. Sounds like there is a newcomer to Alexandria who wants to indulge in fantasies about where ACPS is headed.

They all sound like that for a year or two, then reality gradually sinks in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What ancillaries? And why don't they offer the option without transportation -- make the families figure that out, as they do for private schools? There are plenty of carpools to and from TJ and all of its activities. The cost is not that crazy - like $14k per student I have heard? Far less than strong academic private school. Why not let families apply and pay for it themselves? An argument may be that only the more wealthy can afford these things but the same really is true for private school too. Or make the decision to fund the tuition on the basis of need. If an economically disadvantaged kid from Alexandria can pass the tests I am confident TJ would be happy to have him/her. I say that from the vantage point of a TJ parent. It's a great school. Very hard academically but engaging in both academics and ECs. And not THAT hard to get in if you have the proper base of education from grade school. That may also not be Alexandria's schools forte.

I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone is preventing someone from outside Fairfax County from applying and paying their own tuition.

But ACPS will never agree to pay $14,000 a year to send a handful of kids and have its own marginal test scores fall further as part of the bargain. Are you kidding me?

I think it's a fallacy to think allowing a handful of students attend TJ would hurt test scores in ACPS. Right now no one in ACPS is aspiring to attend TJ because it's not an option. So ACPS loses many families with high-achieving kids to Arlington and Fairfax, and achievement in ACPS ends up depressed.

Allow those kids to attend to TJ and you start getting more kids working harder in elementary and middle school. Even if they don't get into TJ, those kids don't stop working hard and taking advantage of the available opportunities.

Be that as it may, it's still not going to happen. You're wasting your breath. ACPS isn't oriented to serve high achievers. Period.

Truth. I was at a meeting where Mort Sherman was asked how ACPS could attract high-achieving students that are going to private schools, and he said he wasn't interested in doing that. Quote: "Private schools are a good option for some people."

OMG. Was that a TRCA meeting? I was there too. Either that, or he repeated that line many times.

I don't see any indication that the replacement leadership is any different.

He must have said it multiple times. I heard it at a parent meeting at Jefferson-Houston. I attended, because it was our in-bounds school, and I was trying to decide whether to take a chance on it or send dc to private. I was convinced. DC goes to a private school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The general shift to living in the region's center was not happening in 1995, and certainly not the scale of development. 2005 it may have been but then change got tangled up with the economic crisis. I really do see the city on an upswing in ways I have not seen before (I have been in the region for the entire period you mention) You can see it in total population and other indicators.

As for people not moving to Alexandria for a MacArthur or LCTA or Mason, as I said above, Alexandria does not need to be Arlington. I don't know that having people move to Alexandria specifically for the schools is a worthwhile goal - certainly not in the short to medium term.

And I find your use of the term masses quite confusing (as well as offputting) The middle class non-gifted folks in Fairfax County are the masses, really. You seem more troubled that Alexandria wants to educate the poor. You also seem to imply an undifferentiated elite - I think the differences between high SES families non gifted kids, ordinary gifted kids, and the profoundly gifted are all quite different. Appealing to the high SES is mostly a real estate and economics problem. Alexandria does well enough with the childless (and those who prefer private schools) that I do not see it as a huge issue. Ordinary gifted kids may not be served as well as they should be in ACPS, or as they are in FCPS, but that has little to do with TJHSST. And they may well manage among the AP course at TCW. For the profoundly gifted, the failure to provide adequate challenge, and an appropriate social environment, is in my opinion a serious issue - like failing to provide accommodations to the learning disabled. However I do not think any local county shines on that. And I do not think turning the focus from the poor to the middle class, or the generic upper middle class, will really address that.

It's a reference to the extreme level of poverty in the school system and the challenges of meeting basic needs of a lot of students for whom ESOL.

That is one of the FIRST things people within ACPS will bring up to you when you raise these sorts of questions. It is immaterial whether you object to the term "masses" -- but it's an apt term. ACPS is struggling to meet the needs of the masses, many of who are at-risk. That is the paradigm through which educational policy is made.

You're also completely wrong about 1995. I lived in the city then. These same issues were percolating, the housing boom was beginning to take root. Cameron Station went up in the late 1990s, the Carlyle development started then. Everyone was talking then about shifting demographics, etc. I know -- I was part of those conversations. But then Alexandria threw open its doors when Prince William County went all hater on the Salvadorean population, and central American kids flooded Alexandria and the schools.

My broader point is there has always been a small number of people who have agitated for more services for gifted and high-achieving students in the system. But they have been rebuffed at every turn. There's really no indication to suggest anything will change, although I do believe that for the sake of Alexandria, it does.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The general shift to living in the region's center was not happening in 1995, and certainly not the scale of development. 2005 it may have been but then change got tangled up with the economic crisis. I really do see the city on an upswing in ways I have not seen before (I have been in the region for the entire period you mention) You can see it in total population and other indicators.

As for people not moving to Alexandria for a MacArthur or LCTA or Mason, as I said above, Alexandria does not need to be Arlington. I don't know that having people move to Alexandria specifically for the schools is a worthwhile goal - certainly not in the short to medium term.

And I find your use of the term masses quite confusing (as well as offputting) The middle class non-gifted folks in Fairfax County are the masses, really. You seem more troubled that Alexandria wants to educate the poor. You also seem to imply an undifferentiated elite - I think the differences between high SES families non gifted kids, ordinary gifted kids, and the profoundly gifted are all quite different. Appealing to the high SES is mostly a real estate and economics problem. Alexandria does well enough with the childless (and those who prefer private schools) that I do not see it as a huge issue. Ordinary gifted kids may not be served as well as they should be in ACPS, or as they are in FCPS, but that has little to do with TJHSST. And they may well manage among the AP course at TCW. For the profoundly gifted, the failure to provide adequate challenge, and an appropriate social environment, is in my opinion a serious issue - like failing to provide accommodations to the learning disabled. However I do not think any local county shines on that. And I do not think turning the focus from the poor to the middle class, or the generic upper middle class, will really address that.

Not the PP you are responding to, but yes, this is troubling and once your kids are in school you will understand why this is such a problem. The focus is almost solely on this population with little else left for average/above average kids and nothing for advanced kids. This isn't even about AAP level kids, it's about kids who do grade level or just above grade level. It's people like you in the City who have no kids in school who have all these lofty ideals about how we can raise children out of poverty instantly with school but it doesn't work like that. And guess who suffers? Your average and above average kids. Even the "best" elementary schools can do very little for these kids. They pass the test easily so they don't need much is pretty much the thinking.

The curriculum and standards in ACPS are just low. They are low to ensure that schools like John Adams and William Ramsay with 80%+ FARMS rates can get their kids to at least pass the state minimum SOL tests. They aren't concerned with much else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The general shift to living in the region's center was not happening in 1995, and certainly not the scale of development. 2005 it may have been but then change got tangled up with the economic crisis. I really do see the city on an upswing in ways I have not seen before (I have been in the region for the entire period you mention) You can see it in total population and other indicators.

As for people not moving to Alexandria for a MacArthur or LCTA or Mason, as I said above, Alexandria does not need to be Arlington. I don't know that having people move to Alexandria specifically for the schools is a worthwhile goal - certainly not in the short to medium term.

And I find your use of the term masses quite confusing (as well as offputting) The middle class non-gifted folks in Fairfax County are the masses, really. You seem more troubled that Alexandria wants to educate the poor. You also seem to imply an undifferentiated elite - I think the differences between high SES families non gifted kids, ordinary gifted kids, and the profoundly gifted are all quite different. Appealing to the high SES is mostly a real estate and economics problem. Alexandria does well enough with the childless (and those who prefer private schools) that I do not see it as a huge issue. Ordinary gifted kids may not be served as well as they should be in ACPS, or as they are in FCPS, but that has little to do with TJHSST. And they may well manage among the AP course at TCW. For the profoundly gifted, the failure to provide adequate challenge, and an appropriate social environment, is in my opinion a serious issue - like failing to provide accommodations to the learning disabled. However I do not think any local county shines on that. And I do not think turning the focus from the poor to the middle class, or the generic upper middle class, will really address that.

Not the PP you are responding to, but yes, this is troubling and once your kids are in school you will understand why this is such a problem. The focus is almost solely on this population with little else left for average/above average kids and nothing for advanced kids. This isn't even about AAP level kids, it's about kids who do grade level or just above grade level. It's people like you in the City who have no kids in school who have all these lofty ideals about how we can raise children out of poverty instantly with school but it doesn't work like that. And guess who suffers? Your average and above average kids. Even the "best" elementary schools can do very little for these kids. They pass the test easily so they don't need much is pretty much the thinking.

The curriculum and standards in ACPS are just low. They are low to ensure that schools like John Adams and William Ramsay with 80%+ FARMS rates can get their kids to at least pass the state minimum SOL tests. They aren't concerned with much else.

My kid is in college. I am not new to this area. I have lived here for over 20 years, and have been familiar with the City of Alexandria for that entire time. Cameron Station is lovely but its small. Caryle as far as I can tell did contribute to the City's resources - it is continuiing to grow, and more new development is on its way. That is not so much about changing demographics as about more tax revenues. I do not think anything can be done instantly, but I don't think that means we should not attempt to do what we can for poor kids. As far as I am concerned Fairfax generally feels the same away. The difference is both the numbers - Alexandria has more FARMS kids - and resources - Fairfax has more money to do both. I do believe Alexandria's resources will grow.

As for demographics I cannot tell what changes will occur in the future (btw PWC still has lots of FARMs kids IIUC, the much ballyhooed expulsion of illegals did not change that) but I do know that in the area covered by the Beauregard Small Area plan many units now inhabited by low income families will be replaced by new units, more than 90% of which will be market rate. Whether that is a good idea or not, it will be happening.

And I do not expect ACPS to transform anytime in the near future. I do expect however that the issues ACPS has will not hold back the City's upward path, and I do expect that here and there some ACPS schools will improve. I also am not sure why people keep taking about this Mort Sherman, whom IIUC was fired.

[Anonymous]

Note well - every negative thing one can say about Alexandria, 20 years ago people said about DC - only the situation was far more dire.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The general shift to living in the region's center was not happening in 1995, and certainly not the scale of development. 2005 it may have been but then change got tangled up with the economic crisis. I really do see the city on an upswing in ways I have not seen before (I have been in the region for the entire period you mention) You can see it in total population and other indicators.

As for people not moving to Alexandria for a MacArthur or LCTA or Mason, as I said above, Alexandria does not need to be Arlington. I don't know that having people move to Alexandria specifically for the schools is a worthwhile goal - certainly not in the short to medium term.

And I find your use of the term masses quite confusing (as well as offputting) The middle class non-gifted folks in Fairfax County are the masses, really. You seem more troubled that Alexandria wants to educate the poor. You also seem to imply an undifferentiated elite - I think the differences between high SES families non gifted kids, ordinary gifted kids, and the profoundly gifted are all quite different. Appealing to the high SES is mostly a real estate and economics problem. Alexandria does well enough with the childless (and those who prefer private schools) that I do not see it as a huge issue. Ordinary gifted kids may not be served as well as they should be in ACPS, or as they are in FCPS, but that has little to do with TJHSST. And they may well manage among the AP course at TCW. For the profoundly gifted, the failure to provide adequate challenge, and an appropriate social environment, is in my opinion a serious issue - like failing to provide accommodations to the learning disabled. However I do not think any local county shines on that. And I do not think turning the focus from the poor to the middle class, or the generic upper middle class, will really address that.

Not the PP you are responding to, but yes, this is troubling and once your kids are in school you will understand why this is such a problem. The focus is almost solely on this population with little else left for average/above average kids and nothing for advanced kids. This isn't even about AAP level kids, it's about kids who do grade level or just above grade level. It's people like you in the City who have no kids in school who have all these lofty ideals about how we can raise children out of poverty instantly with school but it doesn't work like that. And guess who suffers? Your average and above average kids. Even the "best" elementary schools can do very little for these kids. They pass the test easily so they don't need much is pretty much the thinking.

The curriculum and standards in ACPS are just low. They are low to ensure that schools like John Adams and William Ramsay with 80%+ FARMS rates can get their kids to at least pass the state minimum SOL tests. They aren't concerned with much else.

My kid is in college. I am not new to this area. I have lived here for over 20 years, and have been familiar with the City of Alexandria for that entire time. Cameron Station is lovely but its small. Caryle as far as I can tell did contribute to the City's resources - it is continuiing to grow, and more new development is on its way. That is not so much about changing demographics as about more tax revenues. I do not think anything can be done instantly, but I don't think that means we should not attempt to do what we can for poor kids. As far as I am concerned Fairfax generally feels the same away. The difference is both the numbers - Alexandria has more FARMS kids - and resources - Fairfax has more money to do both. I do believe Alexandria's resources will grow.

As for demographics I cannot tell what changes will occur in the future (btw PWC still has lots of FARMs kids IIUC, the much ballyhooed expulsion of illegals did not change that) but I do know that in the area covered by the Beauregard Small Area plan many units now inhabited by low income families will be replaced by new units, more than 90% of which will be market rate. Whether that is a good idea or not, it will be happening.

And I do not expect ACPS to transform anytime in the near future. I do expect however that the issues ACPS has will not hold back the City's upward path, and I do expect that here and there some ACPS schools will improve. I also am not sure why people keep taking about this Mort Sherman, whom IIUC was fired.

ACPS is not going to improve just because you decided to move to Alexandria City from Arlington or Fairfax. The schools will continue to discourage many people from living or staying here.

But it does seem you've gone full circle, from criticizing a poster for referring to low-income students to the "masses" to predicting the displacement of those in below market-rate units with barely disguised glee. Not surprised.

[Anonymous]

"I don't know that having people move to Alexandria specifically for the schools is a worthwhile goal - certainly not in the short to medium term."

"You seem more troubled that Alexandria wants to educate the poor."

Boggles one's mind to read this, but shows the OP and others what your up against in Alexandria City when standing up for your gifted kid by questioning ACPS and TJ attendance.

Merry Christmas.

[Anonymous]

I don't really think allowing kids to go to TJ would be a significant solution to the larger ACPS problem. The school system needs to better serve the average and slightly above average kids, not just the top-of-the top kids, which is who TJ admits.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't really think allowing kids to go to TJ would be a significant solution to the larger ACPS problem. The school system needs to better serve the average and slightly above average kids, not just the top-of-the top kids, which is who TJ admits.

I think that misses the point. The point isn't simply who TJ admits, but who wants to go there and what a school system needs to do to give them a reasonable shot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
ACPS is not going to improve just because you decided to move to Alexandria City from Arlington or Fairfax. The schools will continue to discourage many people from living or staying here.

But it does seem you've gone full circle, from criticizing a poster for referring to low-income students to the "masses" to predicting the displacement of those in below market-rate units with barely disguised glee. Not surprised.

I do not expect ACPS to improve because I moved here, and I never said so. I believe the CITY will improve over time as many people move here. ACPS may improve if the city makes wise use of the (eventually) growing resources it has. I do not have enough familiarity the school board etc to say if it will manage things wisely. I am not willing to judge it by a Superintendant who was fired. Nor am I convinced by people who claim the problem is focus on the poor - especiually when they try to conflate this with the issue of the profoundly gifted.

Also a prediction is just that, a prediction. I predict that people will day of Ebola in African tomorrow. That does not mean I approve. There ARE going to be fewer poor people in the Beauregard corridor. That will have advantages and disadvantages for both the City, and the poor people who leave. I personally do not think it is feasible or wise for Alexandria to attempt to use public policy to preserve 100% of the affordable house (guaranteed and market rate) that now exists. I do think they should do as they are doing, which is to attempt to retain some affordable housing in the face of market forces that make that difficult.

Which of course does not at all contradict that I find it troubling when people evince an opposition to using resources to improve education to the poor/. As for the term"the masses" I think it is an attempt to conflate the SES issue, with the giftedness issue. Once again, not all high SES children are gifted. Not all above average performers are gifted. Giftedness is a different way of learning, that needs a different way of teaching. In Fairfax far too many people DO think of giftedness as equal to above average performance. I think that can be as harmful to the genuinely gifted as the neglect it is claimed the gifted get in Alexandria.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
ACPS is not going to improve just because you decided to move to Alexandria City from Arlington or Fairfax. The schools will continue to discourage many people from living or staying here.

But it does seem you've gone full circle, from criticizing a poster for referring to low-income students to the "masses" to predicting the displacement of those in below market-rate units with barely disguised glee. Not surprised.

I do not expect ACPS to improve because I moved here, and I never said so. I believe the CITY will improve over time as many people move here. ACPS may improve if the city makes wise use of the (eventually) growing resources it has. I do not have enough familiarity the school board etc to say if it will manage things wisely. I am not willing to judge it by a Superintendant who was fired. Nor am I convinced by people who claim the problem is focus on the poor - especiually when they try to conflate this with the issue of the profoundly gifted.

Also a prediction is just that, a prediction. I predict that people will day of Ebola in African tomorrow. That does not mean I approve. There ARE going to be fewer poor people in the Beauregard corridor. That will have advantages and disadvantages for both the City, and the poor people who leave. I personally do not think it is feasible or wise for Alexandria to attempt to use public policy to preserve 100% of the affordable house (guaranteed and market rate) that now exists. I do think they should do as they are doing, which is to attempt to retain some affordable housing in the face of market forces that make that difficult.

Which of course does not at all contradict that I find it troubling when people evince an opposition to using resources to improve education to the poor/. As for the term"the masses" I think it is an attempt to conflate the SES issue, with the giftedness issue. Once again, not all high SES children are gifted. Not all above average performers are gifted. Giftedness is a different way of learning, that needs a different way of teaching. In Fairfax far too many people DO think of giftedness as equal to above average performance. I think that can be as harmful to the genuinely gifted as the neglect it is claimed the gifted get in Alexandria.

Either you're kidding or you just like to hear yourself talk.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"I don't know that having people move to Alexandria specifically for the schools is a worthwhile goal - certainly not in the short to medium term."

"You seem more troubled that Alexandria wants to educate the poor."

Boggles one's mind to read this, but shows the OP and others what your up against in Alexandria City when standing up for your gifted kid by questioning ACPS and TJ attendance.

Merry Christmas.

I would like to see Alexandria feed to TJ eventually. I support that. I think the way to accomplish that is to address the financial and transportation issues. (at some point TCS will hit capacity and the economics of sending kids to TJ will look different) I also think that is a different issue from attempting to make Alexandria like Arlington. People do not move to Arlington for TJ access, as far as I can tell. They go for Arlington's - or more specifcally, North Arlington's, highly rated schools, with their high test scores and more affluent demographics. To achieve that in Alexandria would require not merely better management of schools, it would likely involve an increase in RE prices that would price out not only poor but many middle class people (as has happened to a considerable extent in North Arlington) I am not sure there are even policies that could achieve that if it were desired. And I think Alexandria has alternative ways to develop and improve.