ACPS and TJ

[Anonymous]

7:47 - does the state contribute to public schools or are they county funded? Either way, just because I'm a taxpayer in Virginia doesn't mean I could send my kid to Fairfax schools for free, since I live in Arlington. They'd make me pay tuition.

I've kind of never understood why Arlington and City of Falls Church pay so much to send kids to TJ. I'd rather see Arlington do some STEM program of our own that would benefit more of our kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:7:47 - does the state contribute to public schools or are they county funded? Either way, just because I'm a taxpayer in Virginia doesn't mean I could send my kid to Fairfax schools for free, since I live in Arlington. They'd make me pay tuition.

I've kind of never understood why Arlington and City of Falls Church pay so much to send kids to TJ. I'd rather see Arlington do some STEM program of our own that would benefit more of our kids.

That would almost certainly be more expensive than sending kids to TJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:7:47 - does the state contribute to public schools or are they county funded? Either way, just because I'm a taxpayer in Virginia doesn't mean I could send my kid to Fairfax schools for free, since I live in Arlington. They'd make me pay tuition.

I've kind of never understood why Arlington and City of Falls Church pay so much to send kids to TJ. I'd rather see Arlington do some STEM program of our own that would benefit more of our kids.

The state contributes to all VA public school budgets (its about 15% in Alex, 12% in Arlington, and 23% in Fairfax). Other jurisdictions pay Fairfax's average per-pupil cost to go to TJ, which is lower than the average per-pupil cost in Arlington and Falls Church, although of course it's not a direct savings to send the kids out of district.

Neither Arlington nor Falls Church (nor Alexandria) are big enough to offer a specialized program with the diversity of classes that TJ offers. They just can't afford to replicate it, and don't have enough kids who would want to do that, anyhow. So why not pay the tuition and take advantage of the opportunity? It doesn't preclude them from doing any kind of STEM program in their own schools--they already offer a lot of high-level AP classes in math. Don't see why this is either-or.

[Anonymous]

Thomas Jefferson High School for STEM and Technology is like having an NIH, Sloan Kettering, Johns Hopkins, Mayo Clinic, Mass General in your own back yard.

Alexandria City Public Schools science and technology courses in no way compare to TJ. This is the simple truth on the matter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:7:47 - does the state contribute to public schools or are they county funded? Either way, just because I'm a taxpayer in Virginia doesn't mean I could send my kid to Fairfax schools for free, since I live in Arlington. They'd make me pay tuition.

I've kind of never understood why Arlington and City of Falls Church pay so much to send kids to TJ. I'd rather see Arlington do some STEM program of our own that would benefit more of our kids.

VA also contributes several million dollars specifically to TJHSST.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Under the proposal, ACPS would pay the Fairfax County district about $213,000 for the initial 14-student enrollment, a portion of which would go toward school renovation costs. By 2018, ACPS would pay upward of $943,000 for 53 students. School officials say transportation of students — an expense not included in the payment estimates — may add $22,000 to $46,000 a year to the final cost."

First, what is the source? Second, know that ACPS will highball the TJ numbers surely as they low ball other numbers as suits them.

The Alexandria City School Board recently (November 2014) voted to transfer over half a million dollars from newly found unused or finished facility budget to CIP dedicated for the installation of TCW HS foot ball field lights: "Installing lights alone at the football stadium would cost between $700,000 and $800,000, but in conjunction with other upgrades to the facility, the total price tag could reach $3.5 million, officials have said (total cost estimated 2.43 million with field upgrade)." http://alextimes.com/2014/10/school-board-moves-forward-on-t-c-lights/

Struggle, struggle, boil and trouble. Serve the mass, ignore select students at your own peril, ACPS. The backlash momentum is building as City residents see their tax dollars misspent not on academic focus. City revenue is tight, incomes are flat and year to date prices of residential real estate is down from last year. Bad time to not be focusing on basic necessities: improving ACPS rigor, accreditation and reputation will go a long way to bringing in new families and urban employers (whose employees demand an excellent academic public school system).

No, it's not. There's no backlash because what happens is families just throw up their hands and leave. You have to understand that the demographics you want to see come in is not the same one that the government there wants to serve. Ask anyone involved in ACPS and government about the schools and the first thing you hear is the high relative level of poverty. They really are committed to teaching to the masses there -- drop-out rate is a huge problem at TC. So is teenage pregnancy, drugs, and gangs. THIS is where their priorities are. They're not at all interest in spending a million bucks to send a few high-achievers to a neighboring school system.

What you have here, is a misalignment of your interest with the majority interest of the city. This is not a new phenomenon -- it's been this way for about 20 years. And, your vision doesn't align with their vision, either.

So, no, there's no backlash, except in small circles of frustrated parents who want more for their kids. And most of them just end up leaving. A few rationalize staying by believing surviving TC will somehow boost college applications (being the best in a disadvantaged school, etc). But in general, folks just leave. Spend some time in Arlington or Falls Church schools, e.g. and you will be stunned at the number of people you encounter who left Alexandria because of the schools. I'm sure it's similar in Fairfax, but that school system is so much bigger that it's not quite as noticeable.

We will just have to disagree then. I live in Alexandria City and talk with many about our school system, Council and staff (the later with unusually high turnover). City revenue is increasingly tight, urban density growth is everywhere but without the anticipated tax return from commercial real estate for years to come, partially put off by "tax incentives" to come to Alexandria.

This reality currently leaves residential homeowners again on the hook for taxes in spite of all this "urbanization". Many Alexandrian's remain frustrated with the state of our public schools: we sense some improvement but insufficient to hook large corporations who may help by Gaussian the student population (took some grammatical liberty here, but Gaussian makes it visual). This does not even include all the private school families who are conflicted by their taxes going to support a mediocre school system and their income to privates to get around it.

This is the reality I hear here in Alexandria Virginia. We do agree on one point: high future residential tax increases will be met with family and others egress from the City, some for the reasons above, others for real estate valuation. We just won't know how many until people vote with their pocket book.

I also live in the City and the PP is correct - there is no "backlash momentum" and it's not likely to happen. The City is small under 150K residents and the portion of those residents who are school age is really small. Families with school age children are in the minority in the City. The ACPS school population now has a 60% FARMS rate. It will likely go higher and once it does no amount of programming or changes will help the schools improve. I have posted before that what needs to happen is a major change in City Council and mayor AND a major shift in demographics. I remember a few years ago the City started charging for summer rec camp for kids and parents were outraged that they suddenly needed to pay for care from 9am - 6pm all summer. The price they were being charged? $25 for the entire summer. But that's the mentality of the FARMS rate population in that dominates the schools.

Back to the original question - the new Superintendent passed on sending kids to TJ because he felt that the new STEM program at TC Williams was a good replacement. The program at TC accepts any kid, had very poor ratings from kids themselves, no child can be kicked out and there is not test of even basic math and science needed to get in. I am sure the program will absolutely be comparable to TJ.

[Anonymous]

It's kind of telling that, although TC Williams is a very big school with over 2700 students, it has fewer Asian students than any high school in FCPS besides Mount Vernon, which is 25-30% smaller than TC Williams. I bet you'd see that change if ACPS changed its policy on TJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Under the proposal, ACPS would pay the Fairfax County district about $213,000 for the initial 14-student enrollment, a portion of which would go toward school renovation costs. By 2018, ACPS would pay upward of $943,000 for 53 students. School officials say transportation of students — an expense not included in the payment estimates — may add $22,000 to $46,000 a year to the final cost."

First, what is the source? Second, know that ACPS will highball the TJ numbers surely as they low ball other numbers as suits them.

The Alexandria City School Board recently (November 2014) voted to transfer over half a million dollars from newly found unused or finished facility budget to CIP dedicated for the installation of TCW HS foot ball field lights: "Installing lights alone at the football stadium would cost between $700,000 and $800,000, but in conjunction with other upgrades to the facility, the total price tag could reach $3.5 million, officials have said (total cost estimated 2.43 million with field upgrade)." http://alextimes.com/2014/10/school-board-moves-forward-on-t-c-lights/

Struggle, struggle, boil and trouble. Serve the mass, ignore select students at your own peril, ACPS. The backlash momentum is building as City residents see their tax dollars misspent not on academic focus. City revenue is tight, incomes are flat and year to date prices of residential real estate is down from last year. Bad time to not be focusing on basic necessities: improving ACPS rigor, accreditation and reputation will go a long way to bringing in new families and urban employers (whose employees demand an excellent academic public school system).

No, it's not. There's no backlash because what happens is families just throw up their hands and leave. You have to understand that the demographics you want to see come in is not the same one that the government there wants to serve. Ask anyone involved in ACPS and government about the schools and the first thing you hear is the high relative level of poverty. They really are committed to teaching to the masses there -- drop-out rate is a huge problem at TC. So is teenage pregnancy, drugs, and gangs. THIS is where their priorities are. They're not at all interest in spending a million bucks to send a few high-achievers to a neighboring school system.

What you have here, is a misalignment of your interest with the majority interest of the city. This is not a new phenomenon -- it's been this way for about 20 years. And, your vision doesn't align with their vision, either.

So, no, there's no backlash, except in small circles of frustrated parents who want more for their kids. And most of them just end up leaving. A few rationalize staying by believing surviving TC will somehow boost college applications (being the best in a disadvantaged school, etc). But in general, folks just leave. Spend some time in Arlington or Falls Church schools, e.g., and you will be stunned at the number of people you encounter who left Alexandria because of the schools. I'm sure it's similar in Fairfax, but that school system is so much bigger that it's not quite as noticeable.

We will just have to disagree then. I live in Alexandria City and talk with many about our school system, Council and staff (the later with unusually high turnover). City revenue is increasingly tight, urban density growth is everywhere but without the anticipated tax return from commercial real estate for years to come, partially put off by "tax incentives" to come to Alexandria.

This reality currently leaves residential homeowners again on the hook for taxes in spite of all this "urbanization". Many Alexandrian's remain frustrated with the state of our public schools: we sense some improvement but insufficient to hook large corporations who may help by Gaussian the student population (took some grammatical liberty here, but Gaussian makes it visual). This does not even include all the private school families who are conflicted by their taxes going to support a mediocre school system and their income to privates to get around it.

This is the reality I hear here in Alexandria Virginia. We do agree on one point: high future residential tax increases will be met with family and others egress from the City, some for the reasons above, others for real estate valuation. We just won't know how many until people vote with their pocket book.

I also live in the City and the PP is correct - there is no "backlash momentum" and it's not likely to happen. The City is small under 150K residents and the portion of those residents who are school age is really small. Families with school age children are in the minority in the City. The ACPS school population now has a 60% FARMS rate. It will likely go higher and once it does no amount of programming or changes will help the schools improve. I have posted before that what needs to happen is a major change in City Council and mayor AND a major shift in demographics. I remember a few years ago the City started charging for summer rec camp for kids and parents were outraged that they suddenly needed to pay for care from 9am - 6pm all summer. The price they were being charged? $25 for the entire summer. But that's the mentality of the FARMS rate population in that dominates the schools.

Back to the original question - the new Superintendent passed on sending kids to TJ because he felt that the new STEM program at TC Williams was a good replacement. The program at TC accepts any kid, had very poor ratings from kids themselves, no child can be kicked out and there is not test of even basic math and science needed to get in. I am sure the program will absolutely be comparable to TJ.

Hey folks, backlash in the sense of moving out of Alexandria, increasing public disagreement on residential taxes going to pay for even more, disagreement. Not a second coming of residents at the school board meetings themselves, albeit there HAVE been residents very vocal that ACPS Board policy on TJ is wrong.

RE: "the new Superintendent passed on sending kids to TJ because he felt that the new STEM program at TC Williams was a good replacement." The new STEM program (which differs from TCW AP courses in Math and Science and from local college/univeristy STEM courses taken for college credit), is focused on exposing the students to STEM and Tech courses. In NO way is TCW High School STEM program on the same level as Thomas Jefferson High School.

Alexandrian's who keep saying otherwise about TJ vs TCW High School STEM programs are people who have very low expectations for a narrow group of STEM ACPS students. That seems to be the theme here in Alexandria City School System, doesn't it? All for the masses, nothing for the peripherals who happen to be born truly gifted. What a shame people are so narrow minded in Alexandria toward their own.

[Anonymous]

I am a new resident of the City and I am not as pessimistic as folks above. Yes, there are resource constraints - jurisdictions all across the region face them. But the number of new tax paying properties coming on line IS going to help in the not too distant future. And yes, the primary concern of ACPS is going to be, and should be, teaching the large number of kids for whom poverty is their principle challenge. But it seems clear to me that the TAG advisory comm at least supports access to TJHSST, and I do think that addressing the cost issues, whether by creative solutions to the transportation issue (note well rte 236 is a priority corridor in WMATA's plans for metrobus) or by improved finances for the City, will gradually shift the conversation.

I am also not convinced there will be a major increase over time in the FARMs percentages. Sure, in the next year or two we will get more immigrant kids in the older grades. But over time we will be losing market rate affordable units as they are either torn down and replaced by new units, as in the Beauregard area, or as buildings are renovated and rents increase. Its possible that in a few older hirises in Landmark real rents will decrease, but I think that will at most offset trends elsewhere in the City. And that is true DESPITE policies to replace public housing units and to reserve some of the new Beauregard units as income capped (less than 10% IIUC.) I think some elementary schols are already considered desirable despite the current FARMs percentages, and I expect that to continue, and possibly increase.

Does that mean Alexandria is about to turn into another Arlington? No. But it does not have to, for the gloom and doom forecasts to prove false.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Alexandrian's who keep saying otherwise about TJ vs TCW High School STEM programs are people who have very low expectations for a narrow group of STEM ACPS students. That seems to be the theme here in Alexandria City School System, doesn't it? All for the masses, nothing for the peripherals who happen to be born truly gifted. What a shame people are so narrow minded in Alexandria toward their own.[/b]

The fact is few people in the region understand the needs of the profoundly gifted (as see Fairfax's AAP centers, that cater largely to a broader population.) Were it not seen as a tool in selling economic development, I am not sure FFX would be as behind TJ as it is - and look at Loudoun contemplating getting out of TJ. Alexandria, with fewer resources, and much greater poverty challenges in its schools, has, I think more excuse for its neglect of the profoundly gifted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's kind of telling that, although TC Williams is a very big school with over 2700 students, it has fewer Asian students than any high school in FCPS besides Mount Vernon, which is 25-30% smaller than TC Williams. I bet you'd see that change if ACPS changed its policy on TJ.

Demographically, the City has very few Asians, Indians and Middle Eastern families.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's kind of telling that, although TC Williams is a very big school with over 2700 students, it has fewer Asian students than any high school in FCPS besides Mount Vernon, which is 25-30% smaller than TC Williams. I bet you'd see that change if ACPS changed its policy on TJ.

Demographically, the City has very few Asians, Indians and Middle Eastern families.

These demographics tend to value education so they aren't interested in Alexandria.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a new resident of the City and I am not as pessimistic as folks above. Yes, there are resource constraints - jurisdictions all across the region face them. But the number of new tax paying properties coming on line IS going to help in the not too distant future. And yes, the primary concern of ACPS is going to be, and should be, teaching the large number of kids for whom poverty is their principle challenge. But it seems clear to me that the TAG advisory comm at least supports access to TJHSST, and I do think that addressing the cost issues, whether by creative solutions to the transportation issue (note well rte 236 is a priority corridor in WMATA's plans for metrobus) or by improved finances for the City, will gradually shift the conversation.

I am also not convinced there will be a major increase over time in the FARMs percentages. Sure, in the next year or two we will get more immigrant kids in the older grades. But over time we will be losing market rate affordable units as they are either torn down and replaced by new units, as in the Beauregard area, or as buildings are renovated and rents increase. Its possible that in a few older hirises in Landmark real rents will decrease, but I think that will at most offset trends elsewhere in the City. And that is true DESPITE policies to replace public housing units and to reserve some of the new Beauregard units as income capped (less than 10% IIUC.) I think some elementary schols are already considered desirable despite the current FARMs percentages, and I expect that to continue, and possibly increase.

Does that mean Alexandria is about to turn into another Arlington? No. But it does not have to, for the gloom and doom forecasts to prove false.

More money isn't the issue. In fact, ACPS maintains some of the smallest class sizes in the region yet they still can not educate students. Look at Jefferson-Houston and how few students were in attendance there over the past few years yet test scores still dropped. More money would not have helped. They had the resources, they had the small class sizes, it still didn't make a difference.

The only elementary school that is managing to do well is Maury. This is due to neighborhood families who basically couldn't afford the house they bought AND private school tuition so they realized they had no choice but dig in and make things better. I would also think though can't say for sure that some came to the reality that if only neighborhood kids attended the school, this would reduce the number of available transfer slots and they would stop getting overflow FARMS kids who were zoned for Jefferson-Houtson. If you look at their test scores vs. demographics over the past two years, you will see a direct link - lower FARMs rate, higher test scores.

The issue with TJ is years old and it's not going to come up again anytime unless parents are really committed and push for it. Good luck with that. ACPS has the most apathetic upper middle income parents ever. I mean really if they were even remotely involved they would push for a robust TAG program much like parents do in Fairfax. The apathy of ACPS parents is really sad. And I am talking about apathy amongst upper middle income families whose children attend public school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's kind of telling that, although TC Williams is a very big school with over 2700 students, it has fewer Asian students than any high school in FCPS besides Mount Vernon, which is 25-30% smaller than TC Williams. I bet you'd see that change if ACPS changed its policy on TJ.

Demographically, the City has very few Asians, Indians and Middle Eastern families.

I see middle eastern families in my neighborhood regularly. The East Asians seem to be all young singles though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a new resident of the City and I am not as pessimistic as folks above. Yes, there are resource constraints - jurisdictions all across the region face them. But the number of new tax paying properties coming on line IS going to help in the not too distant future. And yes, the primary concern of ACPS is going to be, and should be, teaching the large number of kids for whom poverty is their principle challenge. But it seems clear to me that the TAG advisory comm at least supports access to TJHSST, and I do think that addressing the cost issues, whether by creative solutions to the transportation issue (note well rte 236 is a priority corridor in WMATA's plans for metrobus) or by improved finances for the City, will gradually shift the conversation.

I am also not convinced there will be a major increase over time in the FARMs percentages. Sure, in the next year or two we will get more immigrant kids in the older grades. But over time we will be losing market rate affordable units as they are either torn down and replaced by new units, as in the Beauregard area, or as buildings are renovated and rents increase. Its possible that in a few older hirises in Landmark real rents will decrease, but I think that will at most offset trends elsewhere in the City. And that is true DESPITE policies to replace public housing units and to reserve some of the new Beauregard units as income capped (less than 10% IIUC.) I think some elementary schols are already considered desirable despite the current FARMs percentages, and I expect that to continue, and possibly increase.

Does that mean Alexandria is about to turn into another Arlington? No. But it does not have to, for the gloom and doom forecasts to prove false.

More money isn't the issue. In fact, ACPS maintains some of the smallest class sizes in the region yet they still can not educate students. Look at Jefferson-Houston and how few students were in attendance there over the past few years yet test scores still dropped. More money would not have helped. They had the resources, they had the small class sizes, it still didn't make a difference.

The only elementary school that is managing to do well is Maury. This is due to neighborhood families who basically couldn't afford the house they bought AND private school tuition so they realized they had no choice but dig in and make things better. I would also think though can't say for sure that some came to the reality that if only neighborhood kids attended the school, this would reduce the number of available transfer slots and they would stop getting overflow FARMS kids who were zoned for Jefferson-Houtson. If you look at their test scores vs. demographics over the past two years, you will see a direct link - lower FARMs rate, higher test scores.

The issue with TJ is years old and it's not going to come up again anytime unless parents are really committed and push for it. Good luck with that. ACPS has the most apathetic upper middle income parents ever. I mean really if they were even remotely involved they would push for a robust TAG program much like parents do in Fairfax. The apathy of ACPS parents is really sad. And I am talking about apathy amongst upper middle income families whose children attend public school.

ACPS has clearly had management issues. Everyone knows that. Jefferson Houston is a troubled school due to both its demographics and its managment. I know upper SES people who have their kids to schools other than Maury and have been happy. There are several such elementary schools, and I do not need to go through the list of preferred Alexandria elementaries - I assume you know them.

As for the robust program in Fairfax, I am quite familiar with it. It is not aimed at the most gifted, it meets an entirely different issue than TJHSST does. In fact it IS aimed more at generic upper middle class parents - most children of the upper middle class are NOT profoundly gifted, and would not fit in at TJ. Please do not conflate the issues. It sounds to me like your issue is more with the class politics of Alexandria than it is with the issues of profoundly gifted children.

Note nowhere have I said that small class sizes alone do magic. But paying for buses IS a matter of money. You may feel that ACPS should in fact cut the amount of money spent on educating FARMs kids. I do not think Alexandria needs to take that route (and I think you will find that the amount Fairfax spends on such kids will be increasing rapidly in coming years)