Salary question -- fed lawyer transitioining to law firm

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think many of you are missing the fact that this person -- clerkship, top school -- could have gone to big law, but spent ten years doing actual trials. Tenth year associates make 250 and barring stellar credentials are not that likely to make parmter or to have trial experience. They major around 250-300. It may not seem "fair" to you but many of the partners in big law are not long term former associates but rather come over from gov.

They actually make more than that, at least at NY-firms. 290K base plus 50K and over in bonus.

At our firm, a tenth year associate is rare because you usually are moved up or out by then, but we have a few in speciality practices who don't have the book to make partner but are needed to run cases. For people we bring in from government without a book or a big profile (and we do of this if there is a need) we usually ask for a two year haircut, sometimes a three year haircut. I think the question you should be asking is what does a 7th year associate make at the firm. At ours it's high 200s and, by that level of seniority, bonuses are more tied to performance than class-driven base bonuses. I have seen huge bonuses and almost negligible ones at that level.

I would echo the previous poster who said the more important question is what is the path to partnership. If you come in as a 7th year, is it a two year look? What kind of business development support can they offer to help you build a book? That isn't much time to put together a book of business that is going to get you over the line. If you don't make it, how willing are you to be a permanent counsel with no shot at partnership? Do they have a non-equity track that would be a better fit? I would worry about these answer much more than the salary. Making 300K for two or three years is great, but if you don't actually have a long term future at the firm, it isn't that much money on the long run.

How would you define a "big profile?"

I'm not sure I could do it in a way that didn't give away what firm I'm at. However, I can't think of anyone we brought over from government on the basis of their profile who didn't come in as a partner. We have brought people over without a book and made them a partner. About 50% were able to turn their profile into a book and stay a successful partner and the other half didn't get any traction and moved on in a year or two.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think many of you are missing the fact that this person -- clerkship, top school -- could have gone to big law, but spent ten years doing actual trials. Tenth year associates make 250 and barring stellar credentials are not that likely to make parmter or to have trial experience. They major around 250-300. It may not seem "fair" to you but many of the partners in big law are not long term former associates but rather come over from gov.

He hasn't said (as of this post) that he does trial work. Many in criminal just write briefs or policy position papers or appellate briefs. Or they coordinate task forces. AUSAs are a whole 'nother ballgame. It's very difficult to even get those positions and then if you do, you are on your feet all the time arguing cases. Still I don't see my firm bringing in an AUSA without clients.

What kind of clients would you expect an AUSA to bring in?

White collar crime clients.

How would they have those clients to bring in?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think many of you are missing the fact that this person -- clerkship, top school -- could have gone to big law, but spent ten years doing actual trials. Tenth year associates make 250 and barring stellar credentials are not that likely to make parmter or to have trial experience. They major around 250-300. It may not seem "fair" to you but many of the partners in big law are not long term former associates but rather come over from gov.

He hasn't said (as of this post) that he does trial work. Many in criminal just write briefs or policy position papers or appellate briefs. Or they coordinate task forces. AUSAs are a whole 'nother ballgame. It's very difficult to even get those positions and then if you do, you are on your feet all the time arguing cases. Still I don't see my firm bringing in an AUSA without clients.

What kind of clients would you expect an AUSA to bring in?

White collar crime clients.

How would they have those clients to bring in?

well, on his/her first day on the job, you sit the former AUSA down with his/her rolodex and s/he starts making calls to all the people s/he prosecuted over the years. hilarity ensues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think many of you are missing the fact that this person -- clerkship, top school -- could have gone to big law, but spent ten years doing actual trials. Tenth year associates make 250 and barring stellar credentials are not that likely to make parmter or to have trial experience. They major around 250-300. It may not seem "fair" to you but many of the partners in big law are not long term former associates but rather come over from gov.

He hasn't said (as of this post) that he does trial work. Many in criminal just write briefs or policy position papers or appellate briefs. Or they coordinate task forces. AUSAs are a whole 'nother ballgame. It's very difficult to even get those positions and then if you do, you are on your feet all the time arguing cases. Still I don't see my firm bringing in an AUSA without clients.

What kind of clients would you expect an AUSA to bring in?

White collar crime clients.

How would they have those clients to bring in?

Already answered, read the whole thread.

[Anonymous]

I recently left a fed agency after 8 years. Not DOJ, very specialized regulatory area. I got 3 biglaw counsel offers. Ranged 295-325, one included signing bonus. Counsel is not up or out where I ended up (top 3 DC firm). Hope that helps. I would call a HH, they can really help looking and negotiating at this level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I recently left a fed agency after 8 years. Not DOJ, very specialized regulatory area. I got 3 biglaw counsel offers. Ranged 295-325, one included signing bonus. Counsel is not up or out where I ended up (top 3 DC firm). Hope that helps. I would call a HH, they can really help looking and negotiating at this level.

Thanks -- yes, that is my next step. I really appreciate hearing from someone who has actually been in a similar position! I was a little taken aback by all the backlash I encountered here, so I followed up with my colleagues who left within the past two months -- for anyone following, one of whom was an AUSA for 6 years, now off counsel, making 350, one of whom was DOJ/fraud/small section for 9 years, partner, around 350 also. I think it is just very different than the track for those who stay at a firm from the get go.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently left a fed agency after 8 years. Not DOJ, very specialized regulatory area. I got 3 biglaw counsel offers. Ranged 295-325, one included signing bonus. Counsel is not up or out where I ended up (top 3 DC firm). Hope that helps. I would call a HH, they can really help looking and negotiating at this level.

Thanks -- yes, that is my next step. I really appreciate hearing from someone who has actually been in a similar position! I was a little taken aback by all the backlash I encountered here, so I followed up with my colleagues who left within the past two months -- for anyone following, one of whom was an AUSA for 6 years, now off counsel, making 350, one of whom was DOJ/fraud/small section for 9 years, partner, around 350 also. I think it is just very different than the track for those who stay at a firm from the get go.

Sounds like a non equity partner at that salary. OP, tried to give you balanced advice but frankly, you sound very condescending. Doubt your friends who have been at a firm for two months know more about how firms work then the partners and others with longer track records at firms.

Litigators tend to be a dime a dozen, unlike the poster with the niche regulatory practice. Best of luck to you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently left a fed agency after 8 years. Not DOJ, very specialized regulatory area. I got 3 biglaw counsel offers. Ranged 295-325, one included signing bonus. Counsel is not up or out where I ended up (top 3 DC firm). Hope that helps. I would call a HH, they can really help looking and negotiating at this level.

Thanks -- yes, that is my next step. I really appreciate hearing from someone who has actually been in a similar position! I was a little taken aback by all the backlash I encountered here, so I followed up with my colleagues who left within the past two months -- for anyone following, one of whom was an AUSA for 6 years, now off counsel, making 350, one of whom was DOJ/fraud/small section for 9 years, partner, around 350 also. I think it is just very different than the track for those who stay at a firm from the get go.

Sounds like a non equity partner at that salary. OP, tried to give you balanced advice but frankly, you sound very condescending. Doubt your friends who have been at a firm for two months know more about how firms work then the partners and others with longer track records at firms.

Litigators tend to be a dime a dozen, unlike the poster with the niche regulatory practice. Best of luck to you.

Not that it make any sense to argue, but, frankly, you are clearly the condescending one here -- "dime a dozen." And nobody said anything about litigation per se. Many former colleagues are doing regulatory work and there are clearly options to do that, also -- FCPA, etc. I never indicated that anyone knew more than you, or other experienced law firmers, do about long term prospects, but I had one very specific starting question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently left a fed agency after 8 years. Not DOJ, very specialized regulatory area. I got 3 biglaw counsel offers. Ranged 295-325, one included signing bonus. Counsel is not up or out where I ended up (top 3 DC firm). Hope that helps. I would call a HH, they can really help looking and negotiating at this level.

Thanks -- yes, that is my next step. I really appreciate hearing from someone who has actually been in a similar position! I was a little taken aback by all the backlash I encountered here, so I followed up with my colleagues who left within the past two months -- for anyone following, one of whom was an AUSA for 6 years, now off counsel, making 350, one of whom was DOJ/fraud/small section for 9 years, partner, around 350 also. I think it is just very different than the track for those who stay at a firm from the get go.

Sounds like a non equity partner at that salary. OP, tried to give you balanced advice but frankly, you sound very condescending. Doubt your friends who have been at a firm for two months know more about how firms work then the partners and others with longer track records at firms.

Litigators tend to be a dime a dozen, unlike the poster with the niche regulatory practice. Best of luck to you.

Not that it make any sense to argue, but, frankly, you are clearly the condescending one here -- "dime a dozen." And nobody said anything about litigation per se. Many former colleagues are doing regulatory work and there are clearly options to do that, also -- FCPA, etc. I never indicated that anyone knew more than you, or other experienced law firmers, do about long term prospects, but I had one very specific starting question.

Not PP. No one can answer that specific question because you didn't provide enough specific detail. I doubt you'll last long at a firm if you're stupid to realize that and you treat colleagues the way you've treated people on this thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently left a fed agency after 8 years. Not DOJ, very specialized regulatory area. I got 3 biglaw counsel offers. Ranged 295-325, one included signing bonus. Counsel is not up or out where I ended up (top 3 DC firm). Hope that helps. I would call a HH, they can really help looking and negotiating at this level.

Thanks -- yes, that is my next step. I really appreciate hearing from someone who has actually been in a similar position! I was a little taken aback by all the backlash I encountered here, so I followed up with my colleagues who left within the past two months -- for anyone following, one of whom was an AUSA for 6 years, now off counsel, making 350, one of whom was DOJ/fraud/small section for 9 years, partner, around 350 also. I think it is just very different than the track for those who stay at a firm from the get go.

Sounds like a non equity partner at that salary. OP, tried to give you balanced advice but frankly, you sound very condescending. Doubt your friends who have been at a firm for two months know more about how firms work then the partners and others with longer track records at firms.

Litigators tend to be a dime a dozen, unlike the poster with the niche regulatory practice. Best of luck to you.

Not that it make any sense to argue, but, frankly, you are clearly the condescending one here -- "dime a dozen." And nobody said anything about litigation per se. Many former colleagues are doing regulatory work and there are clearly options to do that, also -- FCPA, etc. I never indicated that anyone knew more than you, or other experienced law firmers, do about long term prospects, but I had one very specific starting question.

Not PP. No one can answer that specific question because you didn't provide enough specific detail. I doubt you'll last long at a firm if you're stupid to realize that and you treat colleagues the way you've treated people on this thread.

Took the words right out of my mouth. Good luck to you, OP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently left a fed agency after 8 years. Not DOJ, very specialized regulatory area. I got 3 biglaw counsel offers. Ranged 295-325, one included signing bonus. Counsel is not up or out where I ended up (top 3 DC firm). Hope that helps. I would call a HH, they can really help looking and negotiating at this level.

Thanks -- yes, that is my next step. I really appreciate hearing from someone who has actually been in a similar position! I was a little taken aback by all the backlash I encountered here, so I followed up with my colleagues who left within the past two months -- for anyone following, one of whom was an AUSA for 6 years, now off counsel, making 350, one of whom was DOJ/fraud/small section for 9 years, partner, around 350 also. I think it is just very different than the track for those who stay at a firm from the get go.

Sounds like a non equity partner at that salary. OP, tried to give you balanced advice but frankly, you sound very condescending. Doubt your friends who have been at a firm for two months know more about how firms work then the partners and others with longer track records at firms.

Litigators tend to be a dime a dozen, unlike the poster with the niche regulatory practice. Best of luck to you.

Not that it make any sense to argue, but, frankly, you are clearly the condescending one here -- "dime a dozen." And nobody said anything about litigation per se. Many former colleagues are doing regulatory work and there are clearly options to do that, also -- FCPA, etc. I never indicated that anyone knew more than you, or other experienced law firmers, do about long term prospects, but I had one very specific starting question.

Not PP. No one can answer that specific question because you didn't provide enough specific detail. I doubt you'll last long at a firm if you're stupid to realize that and you treat colleagues the way you've treated people on this thread.

I'm really not sure why you are both so angry or how you think you have been "treated." I can't give away many details and I have to be vague -- sorry if that makes it difficult, and I get that.

Many posted that there would not be any opportunities, and I discussed recent experiences to redirect the conversation. Calling me stupid and dismissing my credentials, and telling me I have no idea how things work or how to get clients and I have no book of business so will never get a job -- those are opinions based on your subjective experiences, and I am not responding to them because it does not matter if you do not believe I will get a job at your firm. I am merely noting that there are indeed opportunities for some at some firms, who knows if I will be among them, and I am interested in salary because I am considering whether it makes sense to make such a move from a purely financial perspective. I am not sure why that makes you so defensive. I am not dismissing your experience or knowledge but if there are no opportunities for me at some places, there still may be at others, so that is what I am focusing on here.

[Anonymous]

whether it makes sense to make such a move from a purely financial perspective.

Until you have an offer, you don't know your worth.
Neither do we.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm really not sure why you are both so angry or how you think you have been "treated." I can't give away many details and I have to be vague -- sorry if that makes it difficult, and I get that.

Many posted that there would not be any opportunities, and I discussed recent experiences to redirect the conversation. Calling me stupid and dismissing my credentials, and telling me I have no idea how things work or how to get clients and I have no book of business so will never get a job -- those are opinions based on your subjective experiences, and I am not responding to them because it does not matter if you do not believe I will get a job at your firm. I am merely noting that there are indeed opportunities for some at some firms, who knows if I will be among them, and I am interested in salary because I am considering whether it makes sense to make such a move from a purely financial perspective. I am not sure why that makes you so defensive. I am not dismissing your experience or knowledge but if there are no opportunities for me at some places, there still may be at others, so that is what I am focusing on here.

What did you think you were going to get other than opinions based on peoples' subjective experiences at their own firms? Based on the totality of this thread, it sounds like there probably are opportunities out there, but perhaps not as many as you would hope.

The other thing I'll toss out there is to please take seriously the advice from people who talked about taking the long view of your big law career prospects, and not just focusing on starting salary. The salary that sounds awesome today coming from the government may not be so great in 5-10 years if you end up in a counsel position without much prospect of partnership (and thus getting significant salary increases), whereas a firm offering your a smaller salary today to come on at the senior associate level might provide you with much better prospects of making partner, and thus of having greater earnings over your career.

[Anonymous]

ITT, a bunch of nasaly, butt-hurt political science nerds turned attorneys arguing.

[Anonymous]

OP, you just don't seem to get it. Yes, your experience will get you in the door at some places, but once in the door, you are in the same position as everyone else (and not some special better track as you seem to believe), develop a book of business or a really valuable, specialized niche that makes it worth keeping you around as a service attorney (quite rare these days) or be prepared to leave in a few years. Whether you salary is $275,000, $300,000 or $350,000 these are the expectations at Biglaw firms.