Salary question -- fed lawyer transitioining to law firm

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, you just don't seem to get it. Yes, your experience will get you in the door at some places, but once in the door, you are in the same position as everyone else (and not some special better track as you seem to believe), develop a book of business or a really valuable, specialized niche that makes it worth keeping you around as a service attorney (quite rare these days) or be prepared to leave in a few years. Whether you salary is $275,000, $300,000 or $350,000 these are the expectations at Biglaw firms.

OP here. I absolutely get that. Summered at several firms, have a spouse who is at a smaller firm, many friends at firms. I understand the practical realities. My question really was about what to expect at the door in terms of salary. To clarify, I do not think there is a special track. I am sure I would be held to the same standard as anyone else at the level at which I entered. I appreciate your advice, am familiar with what you are saying, and do not question it. Much of this thread was about my not being able to get a job, however, and it devolved from there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you just don't seem to get it. Yes, your experience will get you in the door at some places, but once in the door, you are in the same position as everyone else (and not some special better track as you seem to believe), develop a book of business or a really valuable, specialized niche that makes it worth keeping you around as a service attorney (quite rare these days) or be prepared to leave in a few years. Whether you salary is $275,000, $300,000 or $350,000 these are the expectations at Biglaw firms.

OP here. I absolutely get that. Summered at several firms, have a spouse who is at a smaller firm, many friends at firms. I understand the practical realities. My question really was about what to expect at the door in terms of salary. To clarify, I do not think there is a special track. I am sure I would be held to the same standard as anyone else at the level at which I entered. I appreciate your advice, am familiar with what you are saying, and do not question it. Much of this thread was about my not being able to get a job, however, and it devolved from there.

I think where some people got their backs up is that there are a lot of people who graduated the same year as you who are still associates, and not because they're never going to make partner but because the legal market is still tough. So for you to come in here and presume you're going to leap-frog them to of counsel or partner right in the door does presume a different track. After all, what are all of your friends at firms doing? If they're partners/of counsel, presumably you'd be able to ask them and get better information specific to your circumstances than you would on DCUM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you just don't seem to get it. Yes, your experience will get you in the door at some places, but once in the door, you are in the same position as everyone else (and not some special better track as you seem to believe), develop a book of business or a really valuable, specialized niche that makes it worth keeping you around as a service attorney (quite rare these days) or be prepared to leave in a few years. Whether you salary is $275,000, $300,000 or $350,000 these are the expectations at Biglaw firms.

OP here. I absolutely get that. Summered at several firms, have a spouse who is at a smaller firm, many friends at firms. I understand the practical realities. My question really was about what to expect at the door in terms of salary. To clarify, I do not think there is a special track. I am sure I would be held to the same standard as anyone else at the level at which I entered. I appreciate your advice, am familiar with what you are saying, and do not question it. Much of this thread was about my not being able to get a job, however, and it devolved from there.

I think where some people got their backs up is that there are a lot of people who graduated the same year as you who are still associates, and not because they're never going to make partner but because the legal market is still tough. So for you to come in here and presume you're going to leap-frog them to of counsel or partner right in the door does presume a different track. After all, what are all of your friends at firms doing? If they're partners/of counsel, presumably you'd be able to ask them and get better information specific to your circumstances than you would on DCUM.

I don't know that there is a different "track." But many of my friends at firms have been told to try to go to DOJ or be an AUSA for a while. So, I think the experience is valued, particularly in practice areas like FCPA. Also, if one is a chief or a deputy chief of a section some 11 years out, I do think they are going to be placed in a different position than a 10th year associate, based on the experiences of those careers I am following.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you just don't seem to get it. Yes, your experience will get you in the door at some places, but once in the door, you are in the same position as everyone else (and not some special better track as you seem to believe), develop a book of business or a really valuable, specialized niche that makes it worth keeping you around as a service attorney (quite rare these days) or be prepared to leave in a few years. Whether you salary is $275,000, $300,000 or $350,000 these are the expectations at Biglaw firms.

OP here. I absolutely get that. Summered at several firms, have a spouse who is at a smaller firm, many friends at firms. I understand the practical realities. My question really was about what to expect at the door in terms of salary. To clarify, I do not think there is a special track. I am sure I would be held to the same standard as anyone else at the level at which I entered. I appreciate your advice, am familiar with what you are saying, and do not question it. Much of this thread was about my not being able to get a job, however, and it devolved from there.

I think where some people got their backs up is that there are a lot of people who graduated the same year as you who are still associates, and not because they're never going to make partner but because the legal market is still tough. So for you to come in here and presume you're going to leap-frog them to of counsel or partner right in the door does presume a different track. After all, what are all of your friends at firms doing? If they're partners/of counsel, presumably you'd be able to ask them and get better information specific to your circumstances than you would on DCUM.

I don't know that there is a different "track." But many of my friends at firms have been told to try to go to DOJ or be an AUSA for a while. So, I think the experience is valued, particularly in practice areas like FCPA. Also, if one is a chief or a deputy chief of a section some 11 years out, I do think they are going to be placed in a different position than a 10th year associate, based on the experiences of those careers I am following.

So you do think you'll be on a different track. You keep changing your tune on this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, you just don't seem to get it. Yes, your experience will get you in the door at some places, but once in the door, you are in the same position as everyone else (and not some special better track as you seem to believe), develop a book of business or a really valuable, specialized niche that makes it worth keeping you around as a service attorney (quite rare these days) or be prepared to leave in a few years. Whether you salary is $275,000, $300,000 or $350,000 these are the expectations at Biglaw firms.

+1. I believe that there have been a number of different posters on this thread that have said exactly this. Your realistic salary expectation should be high $200-low $300 for a starting salary (no harm in trying to negotiate for that $350!), but in addition you need to consider what you'll be offering the firm that they don't already have (as others have said - can you bring in business or will you have a specialized regulatory niche that isn't otherwise offered at the firm). I don't know why you haven't listened to all of these posters or seem to disregard their insight just because they haven't followed the same track as you. I know I've watched at least 15 people cycle in/out of my top 5 DC firm with the same story as you, so while I haven't done it myself, it is pretty obvious to me what the formula is for success here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you just don't seem to get it. Yes, your experience will get you in the door at some places, but once in the door, you are in the same position as everyone else (and not some special better track as you seem to believe), develop a book of business or a really valuable, specialized niche that makes it worth keeping you around as a service attorney (quite rare these days) or be prepared to leave in a few years. Whether you salary is $275,000, $300,000 or $350,000 these are the expectations at Biglaw firms.

OP here. I absolutely get that. Summered at several firms, have a spouse who is at a smaller firm, many friends at firms. I understand the practical realities. My question really was about what to expect at the door in terms of salary. To clarify, I do not think there is a special track. I am sure I would be held to the same standard as anyone else at the level at which I entered. I appreciate your advice, am familiar with what you are saying, and do not question it. Much of this thread was about my not being able to get a job, however, and it devolved from there.

I think where some people got their backs up is that there are a lot of people who graduated the same year as you who are still associates, and not because they're never going to make partner but because the legal market is still tough. So for you to come in here and presume you're going to leap-frog them to of counsel or partner right in the door does presume a different track. After all, what are all of your friends at firms doing? If they're partners/of counsel, presumably you'd be able to ask them and get better information specific to your circumstances than you would on DCUM.

I don't know that there is a different "track." But many of my friends at firms have been told to try to go to DOJ or be an AUSA for a while. So, I think the experience is valued, particularly in practice areas like FCPA. Also, if one is a chief or a deputy chief of a section some 11 years out, I do think they are going to be placed in a different position than a 10th year associate, based on the experiences of those careers I am following.

PP, and this is the part many of us think you have wrong. While you were off at the DOJ, your colleagues were getting a different set of experiences, and if they are still at the firm after 10 years, most likely every bit as valuable as what you have, just different. Your expectation that you get "extra points" for government experience is where you are off base.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think many of you are missing the fact that this person -- clerkship, top school -- could have gone to big law, but spent ten years doing actual trials. Tenth year associates make 250 and barring stellar credentials are not that likely to make parmter or to have trial experience. They major around 250-300. It may not seem "fair" to you but many of the partners in big law are not long term former associates but rather come over from gov.

He hasn't said (as of this post) that he does trial work. Many in criminal just write briefs or policy position papers or appellate briefs. Or they coordinate task forces. AUSAs are a whole 'nother ballgame. It's very difficult to even get those positions and then if you do, you are on your feet all the time arguing cases. Still I don't see my firm bringing in an AUSA without clients.

What kind of clients would you expect an AUSA to bring in?

White collar crime clients.

How would they have those clients to bring in?

Already answered, read the whole thread.

Yeah I think you and I have a different idea of what is meant when someone is bringing in clients. You meant someone was supposed to go and find new clients. I thought you mean having contacts or already have clients.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you just don't seem to get it. Yes, your experience will get you in the door at some places, but once in the door, you are in the same position as everyone else (and not some special better track as you seem to believe), develop a book of business or a really valuable, specialized niche that makes it worth keeping you around as a service attorney (quite rare these days) or be prepared to leave in a few years. Whether you salary is $275,000, $300,000 or $350,000 these are the expectations at Biglaw firms.

OP here. I absolutely get that. Summered at several firms, have a spouse who is at a smaller firm, many friends at firms. I understand the practical realities. My question really was about what to expect at the door in terms of salary. To clarify, I do not think there is a special track. I am sure I would be held to the same standard as anyone else at the level at which I entered. I appreciate your advice, am familiar with what you are saying, and do not question it. Much of this thread was about my not being able to get a job, however, and it devolved from there.

I think where some people got their backs up is that there are a lot of people who graduated the same year as you who are still associates, and not because they're never going to make partner but because the legal market is still tough. So for you to come in here and presume you're going to leap-frog them to of counsel or partner right in the door does presume a different track. After all, what are all of your friends at firms doing? If they're partners/of counsel, presumably you'd be able to ask them and get better information specific to your circumstances than you would on DCUM.

I don't know that there is a different "track." But many of my friends at firms have been told to try to go to DOJ or be an AUSA for a while. So, I think the experience is valued, particularly in practice areas like FCPA. Also, if one is a chief or a deputy chief of a section some 11 years out, I do think they are going to be placed in a different position than a 10th year associate, based on the experiences of those careers I am following.

I'd be curious to know the details of the careers you're following, but I'm sure you won't share that. The thing you consistently refuse to acknowledge is that, as a career fed, you have zero demonstrated ability to attract and retain clients. And ultimately, if you can't bring in business, you don't have a whole lot of worth to a firm. Sure, if you have some really specialized regulatory knowledge they may be content to stick you in a counsel role with no potential for promotion to partner and no room for meaningful salary increases in the future, but the days of people just walking into a partnership are over. You first need to prove you can feed yourself and a bunch of junior people before they're going to reward you accordingly. None of that means you won't be able to get a job, but you seem to be expecting a job that requires skills you simply have not demonstrated yet.

But let's say you can get that counsel position. The expectations will be much higher than if you came in at an associate level, and if it takes you a few years to really get your feet under you business development-wise, you'll probably be shown the door before you do. If you come in at an associate level, though, the expectations will be lower and you'll have more time to develop the profile you need to make a successful bid for partnership.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I recently left a fed agency after 8 years. Not DOJ, very specialized regulatory area. I got 3 biglaw counsel offers. Ranged 295-325, one included signing bonus. Counsel is not up or out where I ended up (top 3 DC firm). Hope that helps. I would call a HH, they can really help looking and negotiating at this level.

God Lord. See this poster.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you just don't seem to get it. Yes, your experience will get you in the door at some places, but once in the door, you are in the same position as everyone else (and not some special better track as you seem to believe), develop a book of business or a really valuable, specialized niche that makes it worth keeping you around as a service attorney (quite rare these days) or be prepared to leave in a few years. Whether you salary is $275,000, $300,000 or $350,000 these are the expectations at Biglaw firms.

+1. I believe that there have been a number of different posters on this thread that have said exactly this. Your realistic salary expectation should be high $200-low $300 for a starting salary (no harm in trying to negotiate for that $350!), but in addition you need to consider what you'll be offering the firm that they don't already have (as others have said - can you bring in business or will you have a specialized regulatory niche that isn't otherwise offered at the firm). I don't know why you haven't listened to all of these posters or seem to disregard their insight just because they haven't followed the same track as you. I know I've watched at least 15 people cycle in/out of my top 5 DC firm with the same story as you, so while I haven't done it myself, it is pretty obvious to me what the formula is for success here.

Op here. Where have I said that I do not get that? I do. I am considering it, and I have quite a bit of relevant experience from details and different positions I have held. I can't get into details here, obviously.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry; yes, trial work in small section of the DOJ criminal section. First chaired several trials against big name DC firms. Also stint as an AUSA. It is very difficult to form an idea regarding possible moves because the salary structure for of counsel type jobs or senior associate positions is opaque. It seems to be one of those you don't know until you know situations, I think. Not trying to come off as a jerk at all, and am genuinely interested in others' experiences -- just have to be vague. Also, like I said, it is something that has occurred recently and often enough that I believe it is a possibility, but can't really ask those that have moved for details right now.

14:52/18:41 here.

I think some people are getting frustrated because they're giving you their opinions of your salary prospects and the why behind them, and you're just arguing why they don't know what they're talking about. Some of us actually do have direct experience and knowledge of this stuff, and I'm sorry we're not giving you the answers you want to hear, but we're telling you the reality of the legal market.

Yes, I agree that's what is going on (and not the wife of someone worried about hopscotch over husband as a snark said above). I have extraordinary credentials but can't get back in because I've been out of BigLaw too long and don't have an unique practice area to offer. I read the ABA journal every week on how many lawyers are out of work . . . how newly minted lawyers at the top schools can't get jobs and how the application field to law school has dropped by 35%. We're (some PPs) just trying to help. My old firm is taking on only Of Counsel, Special Counsel, Counsel to's, etc (there are now four or five classes of non-equity of ounsel positions - I recently asked one of the few remaining full equity partners what all the separate "of counsels/special counsel/senior counsel" meant and she said she didn't even know. She doesn't know what they are paid. The firm is trying to make as few full equity partners as possible and to salary every one else. I can tell you that new associates start at $160K. Frankly, they would take THE USAG but I don't think they would take on an AUSA. The market is that tough.

It is a tough legal market right now. I know several former public company general counsels with great credentials who are looking for work (because their companies merged, etc) and they're not finding it easy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I'm really not sure why you are both so angry or how you think you have been "treated." I can't give away many details and I have to be vague -- sorry if that makes it difficult, and I get that.

Many posted that there would not be any opportunities, and I discussed recent experiences to redirect the conversation. Calling me stupid and dismissing my credentials, and telling me I have no idea how things work or how to get clients and I have no book of business so will never get a job -- those are opinions based on your subjective experiences, and I am not responding to them because it does not matter if you do not believe I will get a job at your firm. I am merely noting that there are indeed opportunities for some at some firms, who knows if I will be among them, and I am interested in salary because I am considering whether it makes sense to make such a move from a purely financial perspective. I am not sure why that makes you so defensive. I am not dismissing your experience or knowledge but if there are no opportunities for me at some places, there still may be at others, so that is what I am focusing on here.

Accurately pointing out that you are pugilistic and not very sharp does not make me angry. I assure you I simply was trying to provide you a concise reason you weren't getting what you wanted from this thread. Your assumptions of others' feelings and your reactions to comments (particularly any that didn't reaffirm your goals) point to perhaps an inability to think rationally or a high level of insecurity, or both. I'm not angry when I say this -- maybe a little sad for you that after 10 years as a professional, you have not developed the wisdom or humility to take advice that might prevent you from making career mistakes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry; yes, trial work in small section of the DOJ criminal section. First chaired several trials against big name DC firms. Also stint as an AUSA. It is very difficult to form an idea regarding possible moves because the salary structure for of counsel type jobs or senior associate positions is opaque. It seems to be one of those you don't know until you know situations, I think. Not trying to come off as a jerk at all, and am genuinely interested in others' experiences -- just have to be vague. Also, like I said, it is something that has occurred recently and often enough that I believe it is a possibility, but can't really ask those that have moved for details right now.

14:52/18:41 here.

I think some people are getting frustrated because they're giving you their opinions of your salary prospects and the why behind them, and you're just arguing why they don't know what they're talking about. Some of us actually do have direct experience and knowledge of this stuff, and I'm sorry we're not giving you the answers you want to hear, but we're telling you the reality of the legal market.

Yes, I agree that's what is going on (and not the wife of someone worried about hopscotch over husband as a snark said above). I have extraordinary credentials but can't get back in because I've been out of BigLaw too long and don't have an unique practice area to offer. I read the ABA journal every week on how many lawyers are out of work . . . how newly minted lawyers at the top schools can't get jobs and how the application field to law school has dropped by 35%. We're (some PPs) just trying to help. My old firm is taking on only Of Counsel, Special Counsel, Counsel to's, etc (there are now four or five classes of non-equity of ounsel positions - I recently asked one of the few remaining full equity partners what all the separate "of counsels/special counsel/senior counsel" meant and she said she didn't even know. She doesn't know what they are paid. The firm is trying to make as few full equity partners as possible and to salary every one else. I can tell you that new associates start at $160K. Frankly, they would take THE USAG but I don't think they would take on an AUSA. The market is that tough.

It is a tough legal market right now. I know several former public company general counsels with great credentials who are looking for work (because their companies merged, etc) and they're not finding it easy.

"Wife" here. DH is a partner. Not sure why OP reacted so rudely to the information I provided. I have no agenda, I don't think you can "hopscotch" an equity partner

I'm a scientist and I understand contracting/shifting career fields, believe me!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you just don't seem to get it. Yes, your experience will get you in the door at some places, but once in the door, you are in the same position as everyone else (and not some special better track as you seem to believe), develop a book of business or a really valuable, specialized niche that makes it worth keeping you around as a service attorney (quite rare these days) or be prepared to leave in a few years. Whether you salary is $275,000, $300,000 or $350,000 these are the expectations at Biglaw firms.

+1. I believe that there have been a number of different posters on this thread that have said exactly this. Your realistic salary expectation should be high $200-low $300 for a starting salary (no harm in trying to negotiate for that $350!), but in addition you need to consider what you'll be offering the firm that they don't already have (as others have said - can you bring in business or will you have a specialized regulatory niche that isn't otherwise offered at the firm). I don't know why you haven't listened to all of these posters or seem to disregard their insight just because they haven't followed the same track as you. I know I've watched at least 15 people cycle in/out of my top 5 DC firm with the same story as you, so while I haven't done it myself, it is pretty obvious to me what the formula is for success here.

Op here. Where have I said that I do not get that? I do. I am considering it, and I have quite a bit of relevant experience from details and different positions I have held. I can't get into details here, obviously.

Well maybe you do get it, but I guess I was thinking you'd say "Thanks for the advice. It sounds like I have an idea of what salary to expect. Given my experience, I think that have a reasonably good chance of developing a significant book of business within 1-2 years. I understand that will be part of the expectation if I'm going to make the firm route my career for the next 5-10 years." I haven't heard anything along those lines from you, so it seemed like you didn't really get the (helpful) message that many posters were trying to give you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I'm really not sure why you are both so angry or how you think you have been "treated." I can't give away many details and I have to be vague -- sorry if that makes it difficult, and I get that.

Many posted that there would not be any opportunities, and I discussed recent experiences to redirect the conversation. Calling me stupid and dismissing my credentials, and telling me I have no idea how things work or how to get clients and I have no book of business so will never get a job -- those are opinions based on your subjective experiences, and I am not responding to them because it does not matter if you do not believe I will get a job at your firm. I am merely noting that there are indeed opportunities for some at some firms, who knows if I will be among them, and I am interested in salary because I am considering whether it makes sense to make such a move from a purely financial perspective. I am not sure why that makes you so defensive. I am not dismissing your experience or knowledge but if there are no opportunities for me at some places, there still may be at others, so that is what I am focusing on here.

Accurately pointing out that you are pugilistic and not very sharp does not make me angry. I assure you I simply was trying to provide you a concise reason you weren't getting what you wanted from this thread. Your assumptions of others' feelings and your reactions to comments (particularly any that didn't reaffirm your goals) point to perhaps an inability to think rationally or a high level of insecurity, or both. I'm not angry when I say this -- maybe a little sad for you that after 10 years as a professional, you have not developed the wisdom or humility to take advice that might prevent you from making career mistakes.

You sound like a frustrated litigator dying to show off your debate skills. And your ability to use big words and your wonderful "empathy" does not detract from your utter and complete rank jerkiness. This thread obviously triggered some odd need to belittle OP relentlessly and show off your own superiority, which really does not reflect well on your mental state or personal career satisfaction. I think perhaps you should ruminate on that a bit.