Salary question -- fed lawyer transitioining to law firm

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry; yes, trial work in small section of the DOJ criminal section. First chaired several trials against big name DC firms. Also stint as an AUSA. It is very difficult to form an idea regarding possible moves because the salary structure for of counsel type jobs or senior associate positions is opaque. It seems to be one of those you don't know until you know situations, I think. Not trying to come off as a jerk at all, and am genuinely interested in others' experiences -- just have to be vague. Also, like I said, it is something that has occurred recently and often enough that I believe it is a possibility, but can't really ask those that have moved for details right now.

Honestly I don't see why not. Attorneys as a group are unusually forthcoming when it comes to money matters. Why not just ask them what you asked us? You could even pose the question out of curiosity. Alternatively, why not try talking to a recruiter to get a feel? As much as I despise recruiters if you find a good one with a lot of placements they can share some of that data with you to help evaluate the move.

Sorry, when I said out of curiosity I meant something like "just curious but what do you think someone like me would be making at a firm" not directly asking what they make.

[Anonymous]

These are just big law associate spouses who are pissed that you are going to hop scotch over their husbands.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sorry; yes, trial work in small section of the DOJ criminal section. First chaired several trials against big name DC firms. Also stint as an AUSA. It is very difficult to form an idea regarding possible moves because the salary structure for of counsel type jobs or senior associate positions is opaque. It seems to be one of those you don't know until you know situations, I think. Not trying to come off as a jerk at all, and am genuinely interested in others' experiences -- just have to be vague. Also, like I said, it is something that has occurred recently and often enough that I believe it is a possibility, but can't really ask those that have moved for details right now.

14:52/18:41 here.

I think some people are getting frustrated because they're giving you their opinions of your salary prospects and the why behind them, and you're just arguing why they don't know what they're talking about. Some of us actually do have direct experience and knowledge of this stuff, and I'm sorry we're not giving you the answers you want to hear, but we're telling you the reality of the legal market.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry; yes, trial work in small section of the DOJ criminal section. First chaired several trials against big name DC firms. Also stint as an AUSA. It is very difficult to form an idea regarding possible moves because the salary structure for of counsel type jobs or senior associate positions is opaque. It seems to be one of those you don't know until you know situations, I think. Not trying to come off as a jerk at all, and am genuinely interested in others' experiences -- just have to be vague. Also, like I said, it is something that has occurred recently and often enough that I believe it is a possibility, but can't really ask those that have moved for details right now.

14:52/18:41 here.

I think some people are getting frustrated because they're giving you their opinions of your salary prospects and the why behind them, and you're just arguing why they don't know what they're talking about. Some of us actually do have direct experience and knowledge of this stuff, and I'm sorry we're not giving you the answers you want to hear, but we're telling you the reality of the legal market.

Yes, I agree that's what is going on (and not the wife of someone worried about hopscotch over husband as a snark said above). I have extraordinary credentials but can't get back in because I've been out of BigLaw too long and don't have an unique practice area to offer. I read the ABA journal every week on how many lawyers are out of work . . . how newly minted lawyers at the top schools can't get jobs and how the application field to law school has dropped by 35%. We're (some PPs) just trying to help. My old firm is taking on only Of Counsel, Special Counsel, Counsel to's, etc (there are now four or five classes of non-equity of ounsel positions - I recently asked one of the few remaining full equity partners what all the separate "of counsels/special counsel/senior counsel" meant and she said she didn't even know. She doesn't know what they are paid. The firm is trying to make as few full equity partners as possible and to salary every one else. I can tell you that new associates start at $160K. Frankly, they would take THE USAG but I don't think they would take on an AUSA. The market is that tough.

[Anonymous]

Have you tried calling a headhunter and asking them if they would take you on?

[Anonymous]

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Sorry; yes, trial work in small section of the DOJ criminal section. First chaired several trials against big name DC firms. Also stint as an AUSA. It is very difficult to form an idea regarding possible moves because the salary structure for of counsel type jobs or senior associate positions is opaque. It seems to be one of those you don't know until you know situations, I think. Not trying to come off as a jerk at all, and am genuinely interested in others' experiences -- just have to be vague. Also, like I said, it is something that has occurred recently and often enough that I believe it is a possibility, but can't really ask those that have moved for details right now. [/quote]

14:52/18:41 here.

I think some people are getting frustrated because they're giving you their opinions of your salary prospects and the why behind them, and you're just arguing why they don't know what they're talking about. Some of us actually do have direct experience and knowledge of this stuff, and I'm sorry we're not giving you the answers you want to hear, but we're telling you the reality of the legal market.[/quote]


Yes, I agree that's what is going on (and not the wife of someone worried about hopscotch over husband as a snark said above). I have extraordinary credentials but can't get back in because I've been out of BigLaw too long and don't have an unique practice area to offer. I read the ABA journal every week on how many lawyers are out of work . . . how newly minted lawyers at the top schools can't get jobs and how the application field to law school has dropped by 35%. We're (some PPs) just trying to help. My old firm is taking on only Of Counsel, Special Counsel, Counsel to's, etc (there are now four or five classes of non-equity of ounsel positions - I recently asked one of the few remaining full equity partners what all the separate "of counsels/special counsel/senior counsel" meant and she said she didn't even know. She doesn't know what they are paid. The firm is trying to make as few full equity partners as possible and to salary every one else. I can tell you that new associates start at $160K. Frankly, they would take THE USAG but I don't think they would take on an AUSA. The market is that tough.[/quote]


Two Ausa acquaintances and one colleague moved last month as of counsel, so it is happening here. I may just ask them, if only just to start getting an idea. I'm not looking immediately I just want to know what the move looks like.

[Anonymous]

On salary. I think you can reasonably expect to make high 200s/low 300s for an of-counsel position at a large law firm. This assumes that you get an interview, etc.

On career prospects. Most firms will only want to keep you at counsel level for 1-2 years while they test the waters and see if you are going to work out. After that, you'll be expect to become a partner or move on.

While your experience sounds impressive, remember that most big firms don't make their money on actual trial work. The money is made on billable hours -- so you're looking at all the thousands of hours that go into prepping for one trial a year. Even with your great experience, there are already seasoned litigators at the firm who will be ones to chair/run the trials, and you are unlikely to even have a shot at sitting second chair until you've put in at least another 5-10 years at the firm.

What firms will be looking to see is whether you bring the prospect of bringing in business. You may do this by going out and speaking, writing, networking, or you may bring some form of very unique -- and highly valuable/marketable -- government expertise. This is the "potential" that firms are looking to buy. And like I said above, they'll give you 1-2 years as counsel to see if you were worth the investment, but I don't think you should expect to stay a counsel for the long term.

Caveat -- all above applies to top 10 firms. If you're looking lower than that, expectations may be different.

[Anonymous]

Did you have a title as a supervisor?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Did you have a title as a supervisor?

yes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:On salary. I think you can reasonably expect to make high 200s/low 300s for an of-counsel position at a large law firm. This assumes that you get an interview, etc.

On career prospects. Most firms will only want to keep you at counsel level for 1-2 years while they test the waters and see if you are going to work out. After that, you'll be expect to become a partner or move on.

While your experience sounds impressive, remember that most big firms don't make their money on actual trial work. The money is made on billable hours -- so you're looking at all the thousands of hours that go into prepping for one trial a year. Even with your great experience, there are already seasoned litigators at the firm who will be ones to chair/run the trials, and you are unlikely to even have a shot at sitting second chair until you've put in at least another 5-10 years at the firm.

What firms will be looking to see is whether you bring the prospect of bringing in business. You may do this by going out and speaking, writing, networking, or you may bring some form of very unique -- and highly valuable/marketable -- government expertise. This is the "potential" that firms are looking to buy. And like I said above, they'll give you 1-2 years as counsel to see if you were worth the investment, but I don't think you should expect to stay a counsel for the long term.

Caveat -- all above applies to top 10 firms. If you're looking lower than that, expectations may be different.

Not necessarily true. I am an of counsel in a BigLaw firm and was brought on with an explicit understanding that partnership will never happen. I make a good salary and most of the time don't overkill myself. But that works for me because I actually want to see my kids. If you have more ambition, it is not the path to take.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think many of you are missing the fact that this person -- clerkship, top school -- could have gone to big law, but spent ten years doing actual trials. Tenth year associates make 250 and barring stellar credentials are not that likely to make parmter or to have trial experience. They major around 250-300. It may not seem "fair" to you but many of the partners in big law are not long term former associates but rather come over from gov.

Obviously the add'l info provided is relevant, but simply the fact that someone has been in govt for 10 years is not by any means a guarantee that they are attractive to firms (and some firms actually are not inclined to take on someone like that because it can be risky to take on someone who has never had to bill time or develop business).

Actually it means they are hugely, incredibly attractive if you are an AUSA or at Main DOJ. Most individual like PP will skip over their peers who have sat in private since day 1.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did you have a title as a supervisor?

yes.

Can you say which section? That will make a big difference.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:On salary. I think you can reasonably expect to make high 200s/low 300s for an of-counsel position at a large law firm. This assumes that you get an interview, etc.

On career prospects. Most firms will only want to keep you at counsel level for 1-2 years while they test the waters and see if you are going to work out. After that, you'll be expect to become a partner or move on.

While your experience sounds impressive, remember that most big firms don't make their money on actual trial work. The money is made on billable hours -- so you're looking at all the thousands of hours that go into prepping for one trial a year. Even with your great experience, there are already seasoned litigators at the firm who will be ones to chair/run the trials, and you are unlikely to even have a shot at sitting second chair until you've put in at least another 5-10 years at the firm.

What firms will be looking to see is whether you bring the prospect of bringing in business. You may do this by going out and speaking, writing, networking, or you may bring some form of very unique -- and highly valuable/marketable -- government expertise. This is the "potential" that firms are looking to buy. And like I said above, they'll give you 1-2 years as counsel to see if you were worth the investment, but I don't think you should expect to stay a counsel for the long term.

Caveat -- all above applies to top 10 firms. If you're looking lower than that, expectations may be different.

Not necessarily true. I am an of counsel in a BigLaw firm and was brought on with an explicit understanding that partnership will never happen. I make a good salary and most of the time don't overkill myself. But that works for me because I actually want to see my kids. If you have more ambition, it is not the path to take.

What year were your brought in as of-counsel? And do you offer some sort of special expertise that no one else has? Also, is your firm in AmLaw 100 top 30?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:On salary. I think you can reasonably expect to make high 200s/low 300s for an of-counsel position at a large law firm. This assumes that you get an interview, etc.

On career prospects. Most firms will only want to keep you at counsel level for 1-2 years while they test the waters and see if you are going to work out. After that, you'll be expect to become a partner or move on.

While your experience sounds impressive, remember that most big firms don't make their money on actual trial work. The money is made on billable hours -- so you're looking at all the thousands of hours that go into prepping for one trial a year. Even with your great experience, there are already seasoned litigators at the firm who will be ones to chair/run the trials, and you are unlikely to even have a shot at sitting second chair until you've put in at least another 5-10 years at the firm.

What firms will be looking to see is whether you bring the prospect of bringing in business. You may do this by going out and speaking, writing, networking, or you may bring some form of very unique -- and highly valuable/marketable -- government expertise. This is the "potential" that firms are looking to buy. And like I said above, they'll give you 1-2 years as counsel to see if you were worth the investment, but I don't think you should expect to stay a counsel for the long term.

Caveat -- all above applies to top 10 firms. If you're looking lower than that, expectations may be different.

This pretty much never happens with litigators, criminal or civil. You must have a regulatory niche that is in good demand.

Not necessarily true. I am an of counsel in a BigLaw firm and was brought on with an explicit understanding that partnership will never happen. I make a good salary and most of the time don't overkill myself. But that works for me because I actually want to see my kids. If you have more ambition, it is not the path to take.

[Anonymous]

Good Grief. OP, if you know so many people who have made the jump, why not ask one of them?