Salary question -- fed lawyer transitioining to law firm

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Good Grief. OP, if you know so many people who have made the jump, why not ask one of them?

I just feel awkward asking about salary, so I thought I would try to see what I can discover anonymously. But yes, it seems that is the best idea.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Good Grief. OP, if you know so many people who have made the jump, why not ask one of them?

I just feel awkward asking about salary, so I thought I would try to see what I can discover anonymously. But yes, it seems that is the best idea.

I'm curious to know why the focus on salary so much. Would you not even bother with the job search if the salary wasn't going to be high enough from day one?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:On salary. I think you can reasonably expect to make high 200s/low 300s for an of-counsel position at a large law firm. This assumes that you get an interview, etc.

On career prospects. Most firms will only want to keep you at counsel level for 1-2 years while they test the waters and see if you are going to work out. After that, you'll be expect to become a partner or move on.

While your experience sounds impressive, remember that most big firms don't make their money on actual trial work. The money is made on billable hours -- so you're looking at all the thousands of hours that go into prepping for one trial a year. Even with your great experience, there are already seasoned litigators at the firm who will be ones to chair/run the trials, and you are unlikely to even have a shot at sitting second chair until you've put in at least another 5-10 years at the firm.

What firms will be looking to see is whether you bring the prospect of bringing in business. You may do this by going out and speaking, writing, networking, or you may bring some form of very unique -- and highly valuable/marketable -- government expertise. This is the "potential" that firms are looking to buy. And like I said above, they'll give you 1-2 years as counsel to see if you were worth the investment, but I don't think you should expect to stay a counsel for the long term.

Caveat -- all above applies to top 10 firms. If you're looking lower than that, expectations may be different.

Not necessarily true. I am an of counsel in a BigLaw firm and was brought on with an explicit understanding that partnership will never happen. I make a good salary and most of the time don't overkill myself. But that works for me because I actually want to see my kids. If you have more ambition, it is not the path to take.

What year were your brought in as of-counsel? And do you offer some sort of special expertise that no one else has? Also, is your firm in AmLaw 100 top 30?

2010. Not particularly, just an experienced lawyer with excellent credentials. Top 50.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My guess in high two's, low three's, depending on what type of cases you were prosecuting.

This is my guess too.

+1. This for base, plus another 50K in bonus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think many of you are missing the fact that this person -- clerkship, top school -- could have gone to big law, but spent ten years doing actual trials. Tenth year associates make 250 and barring stellar credentials are not that likely to make parmter or to have trial experience. They major around 250-300. It may not seem "fair" to you but many of the partners in big law are not long term former associates but rather come over from gov.

They actually make more than that, at least at NY-firms. 290K base plus 50K and over in bonus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think many of you are missing the fact that this person -- clerkship, top school -- could have gone to big law, but spent ten years doing actual trials. Tenth year associates make 250 and barring stellar credentials are not that likely to make parmter or to have trial experience. They major around 250-300. It may not seem "fair" to you but many of the partners in big law are not long term former associates but rather come over from gov.

He hasn't said (as of this post) that he does trial work. Many in criminal just write briefs or policy position papers or appellate briefs. Or they coordinate task forces. AUSAs are a whole 'nother ballgame. It's very difficult to even get those positions and then if you do, you are on your feet all the time arguing cases. Still I don't see my firm bringing in an AUSA without clients.

What kind of clients would you expect an AUSA to bring in?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Good Grief. OP, if you know so many people who have made the jump, why not ask one of them?

I just feel awkward asking about salary, so I thought I would try to see what I can discover anonymously. But yes, it seems that is the best idea.

I'm curious to know why the focus on salary so much. Would you not even bother with the job search if the salary wasn't going to be high enough from day one?

NP here but obviously the focus is on salary because OP will probably be working a lot more hours and will have a lot less job security.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think many of you are missing the fact that this person -- clerkship, top school -- could have gone to big law, but spent ten years doing actual trials. Tenth year associates make 250 and barring stellar credentials are not that likely to make parmter or to have trial experience. They major around 250-300. It may not seem "fair" to you but many of the partners in big law are not long term former associates but rather come over from gov.

He hasn't said (as of this post) that he does trial work. Many in criminal just write briefs or policy position papers or appellate briefs. Or they coordinate task forces. AUSAs are a whole 'nother ballgame. It's very difficult to even get those positions and then if you do, you are on your feet all the time arguing cases. Still I don't see my firm bringing in an AUSA without clients.

What kind of clients would you expect an AUSA to bring in?

White collar crime clients.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Good Grief. OP, if you know so many people who have made the jump, why not ask one of them?

I just feel awkward asking about salary, so I thought I would try to see what I can discover anonymously. But yes, it seems that is the best idea.

I'm curious to know why the focus on salary so much. Would you not even bother with the job search if the salary wasn't going to be high enough from day one?

NP here but obviously the focus is on salary because OP will probably be working a lot more hours and will have a lot less job security.

I don't necessarily know about a ton more hours -- job is extremely travel heavy right now and easily 60-70 hours/week, but I am sure less security. The focus is on salary because that would be the reason for a move at this time. To go from a GS 15 to 300 is obviously a big jump.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think many of you are missing the fact that this person -- clerkship, top school -- could have gone to big law, but spent ten years doing actual trials. Tenth year associates make 250 and barring stellar credentials are not that likely to make parmter or to have trial experience. They major around 250-300. It may not seem "fair" to you but many of the partners in big law are not long term former associates but rather come over from gov.

Obviously the add'l info provided is relevant, but simply the fact that someone has been in govt for 10 years is not by any means a guarantee that they are attractive to firms (and some firms actually are not inclined to take on someone like that because it can be risky to take on someone who has never had to bill time or develop business).

Actually it means they are hugely, incredibly attractive if you are an AUSA or at Main DOJ. Most individual like PP will skip over their peers who have sat in private since day 1.

This is true. Many colleagues have been told to go try to be an AUSA or main DOJ and come back to try for partnership.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think many of you are missing the fact that this person -- clerkship, top school -- could have gone to big law, but spent ten years doing actual trials. Tenth year associates make 250 and barring stellar credentials are not that likely to make parmter or to have trial experience. They major around 250-300. It may not seem "fair" to you but many of the partners in big law are not long term former associates but rather come over from gov.

They actually make more than that, at least at NY-firms. 290K base plus 50K and over in bonus.

At our firm, a tenth year associate is rare because you usually are moved up or out by then, but we have a few in speciality practices who don't have the book to make partner but are needed to run cases. For people we bring in from government without a book or a big profile (and we do of this if there is a need) we usually ask for a two year haircut, sometimes a three year haircut. I think the question you should be asking is what does a 7th year associate make at the firm. At ours it's high 200s and, by that level of seniority, bonuses are more tied to performance than class-driven base bonuses. I have seen huge bonuses and almost negligible ones at that level.

I would echo the previous poster who said the more important question is what is the path to partnership. If you come in as a 7th year, is it a two year look? What kind of business development support can they offer to help you build a book? That isn't much time to put together a book of business that is going to get you over the line. If you don't make it, how willing are you to be a permanent counsel with no shot at partnership? Do they have a non-equity track that would be a better fit? I would worry about these answer much more than the salary. Making 300K for two or three years is great, but if you don't actually have a long term future at the firm, it isn't that much money on the long run.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think many of you are missing the fact that this person -- clerkship, top school -- could have gone to big law, but spent ten years doing actual trials. Tenth year associates make 250 and barring stellar credentials are not that likely to make parmter or to have trial experience. They major around 250-300. It may not seem "fair" to you but many of the partners in big law are not long term former associates but rather come over from gov.

He hasn't said (as of this post) that he does trial work. Many in criminal just write briefs or policy position papers or appellate briefs. Or they coordinate task forces. AUSAs are a whole 'nother ballgame. It's very difficult to even get those positions and then if you do, you are on your feet all the time arguing cases. Still I don't see my firm bringing in an AUSA without clients.

What kind of clients would you expect an AUSA to bring in?

White collar crime clients.

how on earth is an AUSA going to have any white collar criminal or any other kind of clients? they have zero clients; their one client their entire careers has been the united states. you can certainly use the AUSA's background to market him/her to potential white collar crime clients, but i don't see how they are coming in the door with them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think many of you are missing the fact that this person -- clerkship, top school -- could have gone to big law, but spent ten years doing actual trials. Tenth year associates make 250 and barring stellar credentials are not that likely to make parmter or to have trial experience. They major around 250-300. It may not seem "fair" to you but many of the partners in big law are not long term former associates but rather come over from gov.

They actually make more than that, at least at NY-firms. 290K base plus 50K and over in bonus.

At our firm, a tenth year associate is rare because you usually are moved up or out by then, but we have a few in speciality practices who don't have the book to make partner but are needed to run cases. For people we bring in from government without a book or a big profile (and we do of this if there is a need) we usually ask for a two year haircut, sometimes a three year haircut. I think the question you should be asking is what does a 7th year associate make at the firm. At ours it's high 200s and, by that level of seniority, bonuses are more tied to performance than class-driven base bonuses. I have seen huge bonuses and almost negligible ones at that level.

I would echo the previous poster who said the more important question is what is the path to partnership. If you come in as a 7th year, is it a two year look? What kind of business development support can they offer to help you build a book? That isn't much time to put together a book of business that is going to get you over the line. If you don't make it, how willing are you to be a permanent counsel with no shot at partnership? Do they have a non-equity track that would be a better fit? I would worry about these answer much more than the salary. Making 300K for two or three years is great, but if you don't actually have a long term future at the firm, it isn't that much money on the long run.

How would you define a "big profile?"

[Anonymous]

I doubt you will get an offer in this market, but best of luck. Hope I am wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think many of you are missing the fact that this person -- clerkship, top school -- could have gone to big law, but spent ten years doing actual trials. Tenth year associates make 250 and barring stellar credentials are not that likely to make parmter or to have trial experience. They major around 250-300. It may not seem "fair" to you but many of the partners in big law are not long term former associates but rather come over from gov.

He hasn't said (as of this post) that he does trial work. Many in criminal just write briefs or policy position papers or appellate briefs. Or they coordinate task forces. AUSAs are a whole 'nother ballgame. It's very difficult to even get those positions and then if you do, you are on your feet all the time arguing cases. Still I don't see my firm bringing in an AUSA without clients.

What kind of clients would you expect an AUSA to bring in?

White collar crime clients.

how on earth is an AUSA going to have any white collar criminal or any other kind of clients? they have zero clients; their one client their entire careers has been the united states. you can certainly use the AUSA's background to market him/her to potential white collar crime clients, but i don't see how they are coming in the door with them.

That wasn't the question but some do. They have former colleagues at other firms willing to spin off work (individuals who need separate representation, cases that friend's firm is conflicted on of ). They don't have clients on day one but do within the first few weeks to months. More junior AUSAs/prosecutors are less likely to have the kind of relationships to do this, but might if they have a former mentor whose now at a firm. At least, that's what happened with the prosecutors I saw made successful jobs to BigLaw partnership.