Why can't I transfer my Gen Ed child out of the center?

[Anonymous]

Well for one, the PTA's tend to be stronger at large center schools and raise more money for the school. I would guess the money would be for the whole school though. They also tend to have issues with space in those schools, SACC, art class on a cart, lunch at 10:00 am, etc.

[Anonymous]

So the disadvantage to GE students is not educational, but emotional -- too hard on the self esteem?

Interesting. I wonder if there are other ways to mitigate the emotional challenge without affecting the educational goals.

Maybe if the local programs were made more attractive, they'd be more popular... I imagine most people don't appreciate having to ride a bus to a far off program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Okay, I'm from Baltimore where we can only dream of these problems -- I have no dog in this fight but I really want to know.

What exactly is the problem with having these centers housed with Gen Ed programs? Are the AAP kids mean to the GE kids? Is it just a discipline problem that should be solved?

I can understand the point of wanting a certain critical mass of gifted students together... and I really can't understand how this harms other students.

#FunctionalSchoolSystemProblems

The problem is this: in a center school, AAP-identified kids are bussed from several feeder schools, creating a very large AAP population which often dwarfs the General Ed. population. Increasingly, as the size of AAP continues to grow, it gives a (false) impression to the GE kids that they are somehow "less than" since most of their peers (at the center school) are in the advanced program. For instance, at one center, there are four AAP classes vs. 2 GE classes in the 4th grade alone. Kids ask their parents why they aren't "smart enough" to be in those classes, when the reality is most of them are equally smart and certainly very bright. It makes kids believe that being in the regular (for lack of a better word) class is somehow not good enough. Now, in past years, when the program was only for the actually gifted (GT), this wasn't a problem as the group of GT students was naturally far smaller and everyone understood those kids were receiving a type of special education that they couldn't get in a regular classroom, in addition to having the critical mass you mentioned. Nowadays, however... well it seems everyone believes their child is gifted and in need of a special program, not to mention a special school. And so FCPS has accomodated those families by bending over backwards to make sure those identified as AAP are able to choose whether they want to stay at their base school, or be bussed to the center school. And GE kids are not given any choice at all; that is, to remain at the center or be bussed to a different, non-center school. So FCPS is handling this situation in a very lopsided fashion, though AAP parents continue to insist all is fair because their kids, of course, are the ones who benefit. As you will see from the self-righteous comments that are sure to follow.

So...let's assess this honestly, shall we:

1. There are virtually no AAP centers where the total number of AAP students is greater than the GenEd population, because AAP in elementary school is grades 3-6. There are some schools where the number of AAP classes in grades 3-6 is higher than the number of GenEd classes. FCPS has opened additional AAP centers and expanded the availability of LLIV services at non-center schools, so that should occur less frequently in the future.

2. There is no basis to believe that GenEd kids do not receive their fair share of resources at schools with AAP students.

3. The premise of your post is that a GenEd child will internalize his or her inferiority because he is not in an AAP class, and that it will scar him or her for life, even though he or she may be "equally smart" and "bright." If you have evidence that this is what happens, share it here. Otherwise, you are just giving voice to your own insecurity and anxiety, not your child's. There is no reason why you cannot explain to a child how AAP works: kids took some specific tests; kids who did better on those particular tests ended up in certain classrooms; you are also very bright and doing great; and life is about much more than how you did on a few tests and which classroom you're in this year or next.

4. FCPS has repeatedly examined its model for delivering advanced academic services, and outside consultants have confirmed that it's pretty much state-of-the-art, and much better than what's available elsewhere. If it distresses you so very much, there are other systems that you might find more to your liking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If AAP students are given the option of busing to a center school, why aren't Gen Ed kids given the option to be bused out of the center, to a "normal" community school? Seems very lopsided to me.

This is exactly why we bought a house in a district that wasn't zoned for an AAP school. If our child is AAP, then that's all well and good, but I'll be damned if my kids are non-AAP and get shortchanged because they are at a center!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So the disadvantage to GE students is not educational, but emotional -- too hard on the self esteem?

Interesting. I wonder if there are other ways to mitigate the emotional challenge without affecting the educational goals.

Maybe if the local programs were made more attractive, they'd be more popular... I imagine most people don't appreciate having to ride a bus to a far off program.

One major disadvantage to the GE students in a center is that they are not given the flexibility to join advanced groups in subjects in which they excel, as they usually are in LLIV schools. At a center, the line is clearly drawn between AAP classes and GE classes. Math may be the only exception here, as GE kids do take compacted (advanced) math. If AAP were open to all, then kids who are fully capable of doing advanced work could easily take part in more advanced classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Okay, I'm from Baltimore where we can only dream of these problems -- I have no dog in this fight but I really want to know.

What exactly is the problem with having these centers housed with Gen Ed programs? Are the AAP kids mean to the GE kids? Is it just a discipline problem that should be solved?

I can understand the point of wanting a certain critical mass of gifted students together... and I really can't understand how this harms other students.

#FunctionalSchoolSystemProblems

The problem is this: in a center school, AAP-identified kids are bussed from several feeder schools, creating a very large AAP population which often dwarfs the General Ed. population. Increasingly, as the size of AAP continues to grow, it gives a (false) impression to the GE kids that they are somehow "less than" since most of their peers (at the center school) are in the advanced program. For instance, at one center, there are four AAP classes vs. 2 GE classes in the 4th grade alone. Kids ask their parents why they aren't "smart enough" to be in those classes, when the reality is most of them are equally smart and certainly very bright. It makes kids believe that being in the regular (for lack of a better word) class is somehow not good enough. Now, in past years, when the program was only for the actually gifted (GT), this wasn't a problem as the group of GT students was naturally far smaller and everyone understood those kids were receiving a type of special education that they couldn't get in a regular classroom, in addition to having the critical mass you mentioned. Nowadays, however... well it seems everyone believes their child is gifted and in need of a special program, not to mention a special school. And so FCPS has accomodated those families by bending over backwards to make sure those identified as AAP are able to choose whether they want to stay at their base school, or be bussed to the center school. And GE kids are not given any choice at all; that is, to remain at the center or be bussed to a different, non-center school. So FCPS is handling this situation in a very lopsided fashion, though AAP parents continue to insist all is fair because their kids, of course, are the ones who benefit. As you will see from the self-righteous comments that are sure to follow.

So...let's assess this honestly, shall we:

1. There are virtually no AAP centers where the total number of AAP students is greater than the GenEd population, because AAP in elementary school is grades 3-6. There are some schools where the number of AAP classes in grades 3-6 is higher than the number of GenEd classes. FCPS has opened additional AAP centers and expanded the availability of LLIV services at non-center schools, so that should occur less frequently in the future.

2. There is no basis to believe that GenEd kids do not receive their fair share of resources at schools with AAP students.

3. The premise of your post is that a GenEd child will internalize his or her inferiority because he is not in an AAP class, and that it will scar him or her for life, even though he or she may be "equally smart" and "bright." If you have evidence that this is what happens, share it here. Otherwise, you are just giving voice to your own insecurity and anxiety, not your child's. There is no reason why you cannot explain to a child how AAP works: kids took some specific tests; kids who did better on those particular tests ended up in certain classrooms; you are also very bright and doing great; and life is about much more than how you did on a few tests and which classroom you're in this year or next.

4. FCPS has repeatedly examined its model for delivering advanced academic services, and outside consultants have confirmed that it's pretty much state-of-the-art, and much better than what's available elsewhere. If it distresses you so very much, there are other systems that you might find more to your liking.

First of all, of course we are talking about the grade 3-6 student population, as those are obviously the only ones affected by AAP. As I said, there are centers in which the AAP population dwarfs the GE population - meaning those in 3rd-6th grade.

You asked for examples of how a Gen Ed child might "internalize his or her inferiority," and here are some, though I'm sure other Gen Ed parents could add their own. Three AAP kids told a group of GE kids at recess (my child among them) that they could be in AAP if only they would "grow a bigger brain and study harder". This occurred last year and yet my child still mentions it. I'm wondering when that ugly remark will fade from my child's memory. Whenever it's brought up (by my child), I downplay it and say how ignorant those children were and that neither of those things have anything to do with being in AAP. And yes, I am fully able to explain to my child "how AAP works"; however, my child isn't stupid and can glean very easily from simply looking outside the classroom door that most of the other classrooms at school (once again, 3rd-6th) are AAP kids. The takeaway for the Gen Ed child is that in this world (the lopsided world of a center school), most people are "above average".

And finally, if by "outside consultants" you are referring to the team of scholars from George Mason, they are hardly unbiased, given that so many FCPS students go to George Mason for testing in the hopes of being admitted to AAP. No conflict of interest there. Interestingly, FCPS has not funded a study regarding the best practices for administering Gen Ed education. Perhaps some money and attention should be spent there. As I pay taxes here in FCPS, I expect my child's education to be given as much priority as the education of an AAP child.

Your condescending and dismissive attitude only emphasizes how detached from reality you actually are.

[Anonymous]

If AAP were open to all it would be general ed. Wouldn't other general ed students feel bad about themselves if your child joined the AAP class for particular subjects?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Okay, I'm from Baltimore where we can only dream of these problems -- I have no dog in this fight but I really want to know.

What exactly is the problem with having these centers housed with Gen Ed programs? Are the AAP kids mean to the GE kids? Is it just a discipline problem that should be solved?

I can understand the point of wanting a certain critical mass of gifted students together... and I really can't understand how this harms other students.

#FunctionalSchoolSystemProblems

The problem is this: in a center school, AAP-identified kids are bussed from several feeder schools, creating a very large AAP population which often dwarfs the General Ed. population. Increasingly, as the size of AAP continues to grow, it gives a (false) impression to the GE kids that they are somehow "less than" since most of their peers (at the center school) are in the advanced program. For instance, at one center, there are four AAP classes vs. 2 GE classes in the 4th grade alone. Kids ask their parents why they aren't "smart enough" to be in those classes, when the reality is most of them are equally smart and certainly very bright. It makes kids believe that being in the regular (for lack of a better word) class is somehow not good enough. Now, in past years, when the program was only for the actually gifted (GT), this wasn't a problem as the group of GT students was naturally far smaller and everyone understood those kids were receiving a type of special education that they couldn't get in a regular classroom, in addition to having the critical mass you mentioned. Nowadays, however... well it seems everyone believes their child is gifted and in need of a special program, not to mention a special school. And so FCPS has accomodated those families by bending over backwards to make sure those identified as AAP are able to choose whether they want to stay at their base school, or be bussed to the center school. And GE kids are not given any choice at all; that is, to remain at the center or be bussed to a different, non-center school. So FCPS is handling this situation in a very lopsided fashion, though AAP parents continue to insist all is fair because their kids, of course, are the ones who benefit. As you will see from the self-righteous comments that are sure to follow.

So...let's assess this honestly, shall we:

1. There are virtually no AAP centers where the total number of AAP students is greater than the GenEd population, because AAP in elementary school is grades 3-6. There are some schools where the number of AAP classes in grades 3-6 is higher than the number of GenEd classes. FCPS has opened additional AAP centers and expanded the availability of LLIV services at non-center schools, so that should occur less frequently in the future.

2. There is no basis to believe that GenEd kids do not receive their fair share of resources at schools with AAP students.

3. The premise of your post is that a GenEd child will internalize his or her inferiority because he is not in an AAP class, and that it will scar him or her for life, even though he or she may be "equally smart" and "bright." If you have evidence that this is what happens, share it here. Otherwise, you are just giving voice to your own insecurity and anxiety, not your child's. There is no reason why you cannot explain to a child how AAP works: kids took some specific tests; kids who did better on those particular tests ended up in certain classrooms; you are also very bright and doing great; and life is about much more than how you did on a few tests and which classroom you're in this year or next.

4. FCPS has repeatedly examined its model for delivering advanced academic services, and outside consultants have confirmed that it's pretty much state-of-the-art, and much better than what's available elsewhere. If it distresses you so very much, there are other systems that you might find more to your liking.

Obviously you have children in an AAP center. The program sucks...it is biased, subjective, wasteful, needs a BIG overhaul, and frankly TRACKING. So, why not have an updated version of tracking in all schools and keep it fluid so that students can move in and out on ability? Because your child would have to be with the "not so smart kids", or the kids that "don't get your child". Many parents lobby for the center for their child because they feel their child was bullied or treated different in the GE school.

So why should a GE child be made to feel, bullied and that they do not fit in? Don't get me wrong, I am very happy these (mostly 2E) children and their parents are not in my child's GE school and I want FCPS to keep them separate as long as I have children in elementary. However, I do see the argument on the other side. For the same reasons many parents fight to move their children out of non-center schools, a parent who has a kid in GE, in a center school should be able to move their child out of that environment - upon that request!!

FCPS is not cutting edge they are cutting the community apart by lowering the criteria for acceptance into the AAP elementary program. What is the point? Make all schools have advanced academics to accommodate every students strengths and weaknesses (just wait a few years until my children are out of elementary). Assuming all these children are fully advanced in 2nd grade is a crock of shit! And you all know it!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If AAP were open to all it would be general ed. Wouldn't other general ed students feel bad about themselves if your child joined the AAP class for particular subjects?

If AAP were actually open to all, it wouldn't be called AAP. There would just be flexible groupings for all kids to cycle in and out of, as needed. Makes a lot more sense than dividing an entire school into two groups.

[Anonymous]

Do general ed classrooms in Center Schools not provide differentiation in the classroom? I thought they did this using flexible grouping.

[Anonymous]

I really don't think AAP meets the criteria of an advanced academics program anymore.

[Anonymous]

Maybe you're right. Maybe there should be AAP-only schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Maybe you're right. Maybe there should be AAP-only schools.

There really should be! Then FCPS could focus all its time, energy, and money on their pet group of students, without the bothersome distraction of any gen ed kids. Or pesky parents, always pointing out the inequities in the system. It gets so tiresome hearing the same points made, over and over, while trying mightily to pretend they have no validity. Doesn't it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Okay, I'm from Baltimore where we can only dream of these problems -- I have no dog in this fight but I really want to know.

What exactly is the problem with having these centers housed with Gen Ed programs? Are the AAP kids mean to the GE kids? Is it just a discipline problem that should be solved?

I can understand the point of wanting a certain critical mass of gifted students together... and I really can't understand how this harms other students.

#FunctionalSchoolSystemProblems

The problem is this: in a center school, AAP-identified kids are bussed from several feeder schools, creating a very large AAP population which often dwarfs the General Ed. population. Increasingly, as the size of AAP continues to grow, it gives a (false) impression to the GE kids that they are somehow "less than" since most of their peers (at the center school) are in the advanced program. For instance, at one center, there are four AAP classes vs. 2 GE classes in the 4th grade alone. Kids ask their parents why they aren't "smart enough" to be in those classes, when the reality is most of them are equally smart and certainly very bright. It makes kids believe that being in the regular (for lack of a better word) class is somehow not good enough. Now, in past years, when the program was only for the actually gifted (GT), this wasn't a problem as the group of GT students was naturally far smaller and everyone understood those kids were receiving a type of special education that they couldn't get in a regular classroom, in addition to having the critical mass you mentioned. Nowadays, however... well it seems everyone believes their child is gifted and in need of a special program, not to mention a special school. And so FCPS has accomodated those families by bending over backwards to make sure those identified as AAP are able to choose whether they want to stay at their base school, or be bussed to the center school. And GE kids are not given any choice at all; that is, to remain at the center or be bussed to a different, non-center school. So FCPS is handling this situation in a very lopsided fashion, though AAP parents continue to insist all is fair because their kids, of course, are the ones who benefit. As you will see from the self-righteous comments that are sure to follow.

So...let's assess this honestly, shall we:

1. There are virtually no AAP centers where the total number of AAP students is greater than the GenEd population, because AAP in elementary school is grades 3-6. There are some schools where the number of AAP classes in grades 3-6 is higher than the number of GenEd classes. FCPS has opened additional AAP centers and expanded the availability of LLIV services at non-center schools, so that should occur less frequently in the future.

2. There is no basis to believe that GenEd kids do not receive their fair share of resources at schools with AAP students.

3. The premise of your post is that a GenEd child will internalize his or her inferiority because he is not in an AAP class, and that it will scar him or her for life, even though he or she may be "equally smart" and "bright." If you have evidence that this is what happens, share it here. Otherwise, you are just giving voice to your own insecurity and anxiety, not your child's. There is no reason why you cannot explain to a child how AAP works: kids took some specific tests; kids who did better on those particular tests ended up in certain classrooms; you are also very bright and doing great; and life is about much more than how you did on a few tests and which classroom you're in this year or next.

4. FCPS has repeatedly examined its model for delivering advanced academic services, and outside consultants have confirmed that it's pretty much state-of-the-art, and much better than what's available elsewhere. If it distresses you so very much, there are other systems that you might find more to your liking.

Obviously you have children in an AAP center. The program sucks...it is biased, subjective, wasteful, needs a BIG overhaul, and frankly TRACKING. So, why not have an updated version of tracking in all schools and keep it fluid so that students can move in and out on ability? Because your child would have to be with the "not so smart kids", or the kids that "don't get your child". Many parents lobby for the center for their child because they feel their child was bullied or treated different in the GE school.

So why should a GE child be made to feel, bullied and that they do not fit in? Don't get me wrong, I am very happy these (mostly 2E) children and their parents are not in my child's GE school and I want FCPS to keep them separate as long as I have children in elementary. However, I do see the argument on the other side. For the same reasons many parents fight to move their children out of non-center schools, a parent who has a kid in GE, in a center school should be able to move their child out of that environment - upon that request!!

FCPS is not cutting edge they are cutting the community apart by lowering the criteria for acceptance into the AAP elementary program. What is the point? Make all schools have advanced academics to accommodate every students strengths and weaknesses (just wait a few years until my children are out of elementary). Assuming all these children are fully advanced in 2nd grade is a crock of shit! And you all know it!

Actually, I had GenEd kids at an AAP school, and they did fine. But I do think some of you have too much time on your hands if you want to keep track of, and then rehash, what gets said at recess, and are probably raising kids who will grow up to be wimps, too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Okay, I'm from Baltimore where we can only dream of these problems -- I have no dog in this fight but I really want to know.

What exactly is the problem with having these centers housed with Gen Ed programs? Are the AAP kids mean to the GE kids? Is it just a discipline problem that should be solved?

I can understand the point of wanting a certain critical mass of gifted students together... and I really can't understand how this harms other students.

#FunctionalSchoolSystemProblems

The problem is this: in a center school, AAP-identified kids are bussed from several feeder schools, creating a very large AAP population which often dwarfs the General Ed. population. Increasingly, as the size of AAP continues to grow, it gives a (false) impression to the GE kids that they are somehow "less than" since most of their peers (at the center school) are in the advanced program. For instance, at one center, there are four AAP classes vs. 2 GE classes in the 4th grade alone. Kids ask their parents why they aren't "smart enough" to be in those classes, when the reality is most of them are equally smart and certainly very bright. It makes kids believe that being in the regular (for lack of a better word) class is somehow not good enough. Now, in past years, when the program was only for the actually gifted (GT), this wasn't a problem as the group of GT students was naturally far smaller and everyone understood those kids were receiving a type of special education that they couldn't get in a regular classroom, in addition to having the critical mass you mentioned. Nowadays, however... well it seems everyone believes their child is gifted and in need of a special program, not to mention a special school. And so FCPS has accomodated those families by bending over backwards to make sure those identified as AAP are able to choose whether they want to stay at their base school, or be bussed to the center school. And GE kids are not given any choice at all; that is, to remain at the center or be bussed to a different, non-center school. So FCPS is handling this situation in a very lopsided fashion, though AAP parents continue to insist all is fair because their kids, of course, are the ones who benefit. As you will see from the self-righteous comments that are sure to follow.

But wouldn't bussing your kid to a GenEd only school just make it worse?
Then the kid could come to the conclusion that he is not even smart enough to be around the AAP kids -- not allowed to have specials with them, music class, gym, art?
Getting on that bus would be the equivalent of having to get on the "short bus" back in the day (yes, yes, completely insensitive and flammable).
Bussing your GenEd kid away from the neighborhood school isn't the answer.