St. Stephens St. Agnes -- Hazing on Boys' Lacrosse

[Anonymous]

Nothing to debate. If you don't like men, you won't like male rituals. We get it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the worst thing that happens during your time in high school is that your head gets shaved, then you probably had a great time. Its a hair cut people; these kids aren't being forced to do anything that could actually harm them in any way. Lacrosse is a tough sport, so it is probably fair to say that any kid good enough to make the team as a freshman will not be permanently scarred from an ugly hair cut they had to wear for a day. If your kid really had a huge issue with it then his hair will not get touched, but you should be aware that if thats the case, your kid is probably the biggest pussy on the team and all the upperclassman probably thought he was a loser anyway. What's next for you softies? It's really sad when kids get cut, so should there no longer be a varsity team? Team sports can make unathletic people feel unathletic, so should we do away with team sports altogether? How about you listen to the kid who just posted saying that he was there for four years and never once met a freshman (himself included) that was against the ritual. Boys will be boys; you can either accept this dictum and stop bashing a hair cut ritual, or you can continue bitching and moaning about a silly harmless tradition. If you choose the latter I suggest you sending your kid(s) to GDS, Maret, St. Andrews...etc. Moreover, instead of wasting time on this blog, you over-protective parents of future 35-year-old virgins should probably do something useful, like, say, monitoring your child's phone record and internet history--wouldn't want him to do anything cool with his life.

Well, for a while I was inclined to pay attention to things like national hazing websites. But now, your caring post that wants to help save people from raising "35-year-old virgins" has changed my mind.

Oh, wait, no, you have just further succeeded in convincing people that lacrosse boys (and maybe SSSAS) boys are nasty-minded, prejudiced little jerks.

Good job!

Thanks for the compliment, I wrote on this blog to show the world what lacrosse boys do--what nasty minds we have! I'm not condoning hazing, but the fact of the matter is that a funny haircut is not hazing. To me, and to most normal people who didn't eat their lunch in the bathroom in high school, hazing is not something as trivial as a dumb haircut. You blow and your kid probably isn't cool either.

I'll ignore the silly cheap shots and give this a try. Look, hazing sounds fun -- until it isn't. The line between hazing and bullying is a thin one. There's a lot of research on it. Adults need to protect adolescents from it, because adolescents and young men generally don't have the judgment to draw the lines or stay on the right side of them.

I don't really blame older kids for giving funny haircuts and I definitely don't blame younger kids for wanting them. I played college sports and we had initiation rituals -- the kind that could have ended up (but thank god they didn't) in someone choking on their own vomit and dying. If the funny haircuts are cool with the community, the mystery gets lost, and generally (not always, of course) there is some escalation -- whether next year, or a couple years from now -- to something that proves your toughness even more than the haircut. Or maybe the guys giving the haircuts in high school are doing something else in college -- something that could see them getting thrown off a team (Google Franklin & Marshall women's lacrosse and hazing), arrested, or, even worse, spending a lifetime of regret over someone getting hurt.

I don't think we'll agree over this, but I do want you to try to understand where at least one adult (and one who played DI lacrosse) is coming from, in arguing that schools and coaches should try to stamp out this kind of ritual, whether or not it gets the "h" label on it or not.

19:29, thanks for a good, nuanced view on this issue. Not sure who is trying to hijack this thread with the over the top recent posts (could be bored kids or bored adults) but your input is appreciated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the worst thing that happens during your time in high school is that your head gets shaved, then you probably had a great time. Its a hair cut people; these kids aren't being forced to do anything that could actually harm them in any way. Lacrosse is a tough sport, so it is probably fair to say that any kid good enough to make the team as a freshman will not be permanently scarred from an ugly hair cut they had to wear for a day. If your kid really had a huge issue with it then his hair will not get touched, but you should be aware that if thats the case, your kid is probably the biggest pussy on the team and all the upperclassman probably thought he was a loser anyway. What's next for you softies? It's really sad when kids get cut, so should there no longer be a varsity team? Team sports can make unathletic people feel unathletic, so should we do away with team sports altogether? How about you listen to the kid who just posted saying that he was there for four years and never once met a freshman (himself included) that was against the ritual. Boys will be boys; you can either accept this dictum and stop bashing a hair cut ritual, or you can continue bitching and moaning about a silly harmless tradition. If you choose the latter I suggest you sending your kid(s) to GDS, Maret, St. Andrews...etc. Moreover, instead of wasting time on this blog, you over-protective parents of future 35-year-old virgins should probably do something useful, like, say, monitoring your child's phone record and internet history--wouldn't want him to do anything cool with his life.

Well, for a while I was inclined to pay attention to things like national hazing websites. But now, your caring post that wants to help save people from raising "35-year-old virgins" has changed my mind.

Oh, wait, no, you have just further succeeded in convincing people that lacrosse boys (and maybe SSSAS) boys are nasty-minded, prejudiced little jerks.

Good job!

Thanks for the compliment, I wrote on this blog to show the world what lacrosse boys do--what nasty minds we have! I'm not condoning hazing, but the fact of the matter is that a funny haircut is not hazing. To me, and to most normal people who didn't eat their lunch in the bathroom in high school, hazing is not something as trivial as a dumb haircut. You blow and your kid probably isn't cool either.

I'll ignore the silly cheap shots and give this a try. Look, hazing sounds fun -- until it isn't. The line between hazing and bullying is a thin one. There's a lot of research on it. Adults need to protect adolescents from it, because adolescents and young men generally don't have the judgment to draw the lines or stay on the right side of them.

I don't really blame older kids for giving funny haircuts and I definitely don't blame younger kids for wanting them. I played college sports and we had initiation rituals -- the kind that could have ended up (but thank god they didn't) in someone choking on their own vomit and dying. If the funny haircuts are cool with the community, the mystery gets lost, and generally (not always, of course) there is some escalation -- whether next year, or a couple years from now -- to something that proves your toughness even more than the haircut. Or maybe the guys giving the haircuts in high school are doing something else in college -- something that could see them getting thrown off a team (Google Franklin & Marshall women's lacrosse and hazing), arrested, or, even worse, spending a lifetime of regret over someone getting hurt.

I don't think we'll agree over this, but I do want you to try to understand where at least one adult (and one who played DI lacrosse) is coming from, in arguing that schools and coaches should try to stamp out this kind of ritual, whether or not it gets the "h" label on it or not.

This is the 19:19 poster. Just to add a little more context to my post -- after college I was privileged to hold a commission in the U.S. Marines and served during the Gulf War (for you kids, that's 1990 - 1991). The Marines, in my opinion, got it right and still get it right in terms of understanding the importance of rituals in challenging and shaping young men and young leaders, but still making sure things don't get out of hand. Because of some of their own scandals (Ribbon Creek disaster), the Marines come down on hazing like a ton of bricks and their program, while mentally and physically challenging, is carefully thought out and carefully supervised. There are always three drill instructors, and the senior DI is generally always somebody in his mid to late 30s -- they want experience to temper the enthusiasm (and excesses) of youth. DIs who overdo it in terms of "playing games" don't last long. It's an awesome responsibility looking after young people -- whether you're their leader in combat or their coach or their teacher or, yes, their parent -- and looking out for them and protecting them from their dumber impulses isn't the same as coddling them or softening them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the worst thing that happens during your time in high school is that your head gets shaved, then you probably had a great time. Its a hair cut people; these kids aren't being forced to do anything that could actually harm them in any way. Lacrosse is a tough sport, so it is probably fair to say that any kid good enough to make the team as a freshman will not be permanently scarred from an ugly hair cut they had to wear for a day. If your kid really had a huge issue with it then his hair will not get touched, but you should be aware that if thats the case, your kid is probably the biggest pussy on the team and all the upperclassman probably thought he was a loser anyway. What's next for you softies? It's really sad when kids get cut, so should there no longer be a varsity team? Team sports can make unathletic people feel unathletic, so should we do away with team sports altogether? How about you listen to the kid who just posted saying that he was there for four years and never once met a freshman (himself included) that was against the ritual. Boys will be boys; you can either accept this dictum and stop bashing a hair cut ritual, or you can continue bitching and moaning about a silly harmless tradition. If you choose the latter I suggest you sending your kid(s) to GDS, Maret, St. Andrews...etc. Moreover, instead of wasting time on this blog, you over-protective parents of future 35-year-old virgins should probably do something useful, like, say, monitoring your child's phone record and internet history--wouldn't want him to do anything cool with his life.

Well, for a while I was inclined to pay attention to things like national hazing websites. But now, your caring post that wants to help save people from raising "35-year-old virgins" has changed my mind.

Oh, wait, no, you have just further succeeded in convincing people that lacrosse boys (and maybe SSSAS) boys are nasty-minded, prejudiced little jerks.

Good job!

Thanks for the compliment, I wrote on this blog to show the world what lacrosse boys do--what nasty minds we have! I'm not condoning hazing, but the fact of the matter is that a funny haircut is not hazing. To me, and to most normal people who didn't eat their lunch in the bathroom in high school, hazing is not something as trivial as a dumb haircut. You blow and your kid probably isn't cool either.

I starting out agreeing with you this is no big deal. Your idiocy has moved me to the other point of view.

[Anonymous]

I think if you need to ask yourself if you are one these people attacking Landon or SSSas if its healthy for your schools or your kids or your own mental health to continue this anonymous battle. It seems really stupid to me. But I'm just a bystander.

[Anonymous]

Previous SSSAS parent and outside observer here. While our kids were at this school we were aware of the very strong LAX culture. If you weren't a part of it you weren't cool. Our DC's played, but were never really comfortable with the whole culture around it. Fast forward a few years and with the fresh perspective of a new school and brief interactions with other schools at sporting events, SSSAS and other strong LAX culture schools, start perpetuating LAX culture in the lower school. The little kids want to be like the big kids and this motto holds true all the way to HS.

The SSSAS administration is very much apart of the LAX culture as well. Their children are players on the school's teams (or at least have been in the past), so I can imagine being a change agent at the school is difficult. It's not just one "rite of passage" that needs to be changed, it's the entire culture of LAX worship that needs to be changed -- and that seems to be something many schools just aren't interested in.

[Anonymous]

I was on a swim team (private) in high school and the boys did all kinds of crazy shaving designs before the state championship. Actually, even the girls shaved under the earline and left hair hanging long over top. A bit different, since for swimming losing hair means eliminating drag and decreasing your time, but could have been "hazing" nonetheless. Neither I nor any other student or parent would trade the bonding from those shaving parties for anything. It was fantastic. The sensitivity over this just goes to the ridiculous political correctness and fears of the unknown that are making childhood nothing but participating trophies for insecure children.

[Anonymous]

Get a grip, people, when I was on my ivy league college's versity crew team we had to carry an oar around for an entire week as initiation. No big deal, it was fun and a bonding experience and we were proud to do it. You overly PC parents seriously need to get the big 2x4 out of your behinds. All the guys shave their heads. It's not hazing. That's ridiculous. No one is hurt or is risking their health.

[Anonymous]

Resurrecting this thread to deflect away from the embarrassing Landon incident is sad. That said:

1. This happens at SSSAS and at many schools, including public ones.

2. It is a form of hazing and should not be allowed anywhere

3. It is, however, pretty harmless in the grand scheme of things

4. There is a lacrosse culture at SSSAS, though nowhere near as strong/prevalent as there is at Landon, Prep, etc.

[Anonymous]

For how many years has SSSA girls lax been ranked among the top 10 nationally?

[Anonymous]

Anyone who tries to call a shaved head "hazing" is diminishing true "hazing" which is really risky and demeaning.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Anyone who tries to call a shaved head "hazing" is diminishing true "hazing" which is really risky and demeaning.

First, read the literature -- head shaving is a classic form of hazing. Not the worst thing on the list of typical hazing practices by any means, but squarely within the definition.

Second, read the literature or some of the prior posts with respect to escalation.

The third point is the most important one, I would argue, with respect to a head shaving ritual going on at a high school. Taking the SSSAS example, this is not a club lacrosse team. This is a school team, and the culture/rituals for any school organization should be looked at within the lens of whether they fit within the broader educational mission of the school. A hockey or football or lacrosse team that shaves its heads is saying "our most important identity is not as a student at X High School, but as a member of the hockey/football/lacrosse team." Every minute of every day, whether in class, assembly, the lunchroom, that shaved head says: "I'm a lacrosse player." (And the close corollary to that is "and you're not.") Pride in a team is great, but identity as an athlete should not overwhelm the identity as student, classmate, scholar, friend.

If I were the folks at SSSAS, I would ask the coach to put a stop to this not under any anti-hazing rationale, but because it may bring lacrosse players closer together but it doesn't do the same for the whole student body, and it sends a message that team identity is the most important thing of all.

But . . . I'm not there. So, I give my two cents on DCUM instead.

[Anonymous]

Get a fucking life. You are some loser mom who has nothing better to do than post on some gossip website.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Get a fucking life. You are some loser mom who has nothing better to do than post on some gossip website.

Superbly written and reasoned response. Too bad it's only posted on "some gossip website."

[Anonymous]

9:13: Bravo. I completely agree.