Is the Principals office the standard "time out" for a Kindergartner who is not abusive or violent?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Even IF she came from a montessori (or montessori-like) setting, she should know that different rules apply to different educational settings. My daughter came from a montessori and entered a very traditional setting. She adjusted just fine. My son, however, will be held back a year b/c he clearly is not ready for that transition.

I think your child is probably what kids were like in the 70s - ready for school but ready for a 1/2 day session where academics were not the focus. Unfortunately, they pound you with academics in K these days. So even though your daughter may be smart, socially she may not be ready. You can hold her back in K; I've seen parents do that. But that route can often backfire for some kids.

If most of the kids are falling into line, then your child is the problem. I'm not saying the system is great by any means, but sadly, she's the outlier. And the school has to follow through on its rules.

Anonymous wrote:I hesitate to say what school I am referring to here, because this school is practically revered in MC.

My DD is almost six. She is smart, creative, with a sophisticated sense of humor. After initial excitement about school, running there the entire way on the first day, she has met great disappointment and heartache. I am trying to pull back here and take a long term view, but the signs are a bit iffy at this point

To her credit the teacher with whom I have been communicating is catching on that she is not aware that DD is being teased, and that is being in turn punished for standing up for herself as opposed to "being a tattletale". She is also thinking carefully about regrouping kids as needed to make class flow and allow everyone to have the best possible experience.

What she didnt know is that DD came from a preschool that had centers from which you could freely choose on any given day. There were three to four teachers in the class for a similar class size as hers (18). It was not entirely loose, with lots of routines, but the centers and engagement activities were free choice.

Well, not so here, and understandably DD doesnt understand. And when she didnt want to go to one center wanting instead to go to another, she felt taunted by the other kids (she is very sensitive, so no doubt the whole class didnt taunt her, but all it would really take is one). So she sat down and refused to move.

The teacher said she initially gave her a moment of time to do this, but then did the countdown and took her to the Principals office. There, according to my daughter, who is very aware of the difference between talking and yelling, said she was yelled at by the Principal. I asked DD if she was crying and she said yes. She was then made to eat lunch by herself in the hallway. All this because she sat down and refused to participate.

So I communicated with her teacher and wanted to know how I could find out more about this conversation the principal had with my daughter. I also talked on the phone with the teacher and let her know some of what she was missing. She said she was glad I told her, etc. She said that when DD sat down she was impeding the learning time of the other students, "because they are all looking at her" and had to be removed. I gotta tell ya, I dont quite see that as true at all. So it appears being sent to the Principals office is now the standard time out room. The yelling part I address today in a meeting with the principal, who called me on the way home from her cell phone while driving to address the question I had posed to the teacher. However, I told her a meeting would be a better choice. No doubt this is what she was hoping to avoid. I'll let her do all the talking and see what can be deduced from what she says.

My main thought is this: in a normal system of consequences, those consequences are understood and explained. In this case, administering this severe of a punishment comes as a surprise to ME. And to DD as well who had no idea this was going to take place. Also, while I get that the teacher cant spend a lot of time on each student, I am failing to understand the complete lack of strategy as to what to do with a kid who doesn't just do what they are told the first time. I was told she needs to be told "repeatedly" to do things like stand in line, etc, and that her refusal to participate was "ratcheting it up". But kids don't do things they are told for a whole host of reasons and treating non participation as exactly the same as disobedience misses the bigger picture needed to actually solve the problem.

This is a teacher with 15 years experience at this school, probably more elsewhere. The Principal is also experienced.

Thoughts on any of this?

I should mention that a friend of mine who is a veteran teacher of the DCPS in some of the worst schools said this sounded "a little hard", especially given the school we are talking about.

Thanks.
-T

Remember, though, that in the 70s children started kindergarten at the age they're starting first grade now. For instance, like many of my classmates, I began kindergarten at the age of 4, and first grade at the age of 5.

[Anonymous]

Wow, the OP is over the top. It is hard to believe that the principal would be yelling in a meeting with the child, if for no other reason than the principal would know the result would be a crying child who then would take up more of the principal's time. While I am not saying don't believe the 5 year old child, I think you have to realize that her perception of events, given her limited life experience, might be different from reality. A stern voice could be considered "yelling" to the child.

Honestly, OP, do you have such a low regard for educators that we are willing to immediately assume that an experienced teacher and principal over reacted as opposed that your child's story doesn't ring true?

[Anonymous]

The parent has fallen for the child's story because in her view the child can do no wrong. Count on it.

Children commonly use the word "yelling" or "yelling at me" to describe discipline. This whole thing stinks.

[Anonymous]

More facts are in now: Principal not only did admit to yelling and slamming her hand on the table, but that it was appropriate. Her reason for doing this she stated was that DD did not look "like she was bothered" at being brought to the principals office. That is because she was told she was going to be brought to the office of (Ms ____) and not the principal, and and DD did not know who that was. Principal was offended a five year old was not afraid to be there. Once she made her cry, her exact words were "I felt she was in a better place".

Other students and parents confirm this principal yells a lot, bullies students, bullies parents in her office and yells literally at the whole school on a regular basis. ONe student told me "She told us we are the worst fifth grade class she has ever seen" and "You all need to shut up".

Principal told me and DH that noone ever comes to office twice. And only Kindergartners come to her office. Both are untrue as confirmed by the many students and parents I have spoken to over the past several days.

So my example not unique. Not surprising.

But Biggest shock: teacher was not allowed by principal to move DD into a slightly lower reading group which would have been more appropriate socially in accordance with her assessment and I supported and agreed. Also Principal did not support me in finding ways other than the principals office to determine the nature of DD problem as to why she did not want to participate in certain activities. It was not that she was not doing something just to not do it. There are reasons behind it and when the teacher identified her (after three entire weeks) of having insecurities regarding her ability about certain activities, she was not allowed to make a simple accommodation that was educationally and socially appropriate.

You all seem very eager to ignore the greater picture. My kid is just one of many who will get caught in the widget works of the politics that go on at this school.

Teacher should be allowed to move kid into appropriate level of reading without fear of principal. Teachers should be allowed to do whatever they feel is best for the student. I dont think teacher was aware of what was coming when she sent DD to principal. She was also on the verge of seeing the bigger picture and trying to help my daughter succeed, and was shut down by the principal. That is not right.

If my daughter was to be indentified as having some type of problem, behavioral or otherwise, then the climate would have to be one of investigation which it was not. I would have to have been told there was an ongoing problem which I was not. And all her academic work was coming back to me complete and correct. My only sign was that on some days she did not want to go to school.

BTW if any of you have kids at this school you will know the school I am referring to. Maybe.

And now I bid you judgemental ladies farewell and good luck to you trying to live a life based on very very quick assumptions.

[Anonymous]

And now I bid you judgemental ladies farewell and good luck to you trying to live a life based on very very quick assumptions.

For real this time? Also judgmental only has one e.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The parent has fallen for the child's story because in her view the child can do no wrong. Count on it.

Children commonly use the word "yelling" or "yelling at me" to describe discipline. This whole thing stinks.

We all know a mom or two like this: DD or DS is just the smartest, sweetest, most perfect child. Any adult who disagrees is blind, jealous or worse.

And we all know kids who milk mommy's credulity for all it's worth. Children are smart, and they learn to manipulate adults early on because they are dependent beings.

I don't blame the kids in these situations, I blame the moms and dads. OP needs to be a mom, not a patsy.

[Anonymous]

That wasn't my case. I'm 46. I was in montessori from 3-6, which meant I never attended a regular K class. I entered 1st grade at age 6. I have never heard of anyone going to K at 4. Are you a local? If not, maybe things were run differently elsewhere. I have no clue, as I've been a Marylander all of my life!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even IF she came from a montessori (or montessori-like) setting, she should know that different rules apply to different educational settings. My daughter came from a montessori and entered a very traditional setting. She adjusted just fine. My son, however, will be held back a year b/c he clearly is not ready for that transition.

I think your child is probably what kids were like in the 70s - ready for school but ready for a 1/2 day session where academics were not the focus. Unfortunately, they pound you with academics in K these days. So even though your daughter may be smart, socially she may not be ready. You can hold her back in K; I've seen parents do that. But that route can often backfire for some kids.

If most of the kids are falling into line, then your child is the problem. I'm not saying the system is great by any means, but sadly, she's the outlier. And the school has to follow through on its rules.

Anonymous wrote:I hesitate to say what school I am referring to here, because this school is practically revered in MC.

My DD is almost six. She is smart, creative, with a sophisticated sense of humor. After initial excitement about school, running there the entire way on the first day, she has met great disappointment and heartache. I am trying to pull back here and take a long term view, but the signs are a bit iffy at this point

To her credit the teacher with whom I have been communicating is catching on that she is not aware that DD is being teased, and that is being in turn punished for standing up for herself as opposed to "being a tattletale". She is also thinking carefully about regrouping kids as needed to make class flow and allow everyone to have the best possible experience.

What she didnt know is that DD came from a preschool that had centers from which you could freely choose on any given day. There were three to four teachers in the class for a similar class size as hers (18). It was not entirely loose, with lots of routines, but the centers and engagement activities were free choice.

Well, not so here, and understandably DD doesnt understand. And when she didnt want to go to one center wanting instead to go to another, she felt taunted by the other kids (she is very sensitive, so no doubt the whole class didnt taunt her, but all it would really take is one). So she sat down and refused to move.

The teacher said she initially gave her a moment of time to do this, but then did the countdown and took her to the Principals office. There, according to my daughter, who is very aware of the difference between talking and yelling, said she was yelled at by the Principal. I asked DD if she was crying and she said yes. She was then made to eat lunch by herself in the hallway. All this because she sat down and refused to participate.

So I communicated with her teacher and wanted to know how I could find out more about this conversation the principal had with my daughter. I also talked on the phone with the teacher and let her know some of what she was missing. She said she was glad I told her, etc. She said that when DD sat down she was impeding the learning time of the other students, "because they are all looking at her" and had to be removed. I gotta tell ya, I dont quite see that as true at all. So it appears being sent to the Principals office is now the standard time out room. The yelling part I address today in a meeting with the principal, who called me on the way home from her cell phone while driving to address the question I had posed to the teacher. However, I told her a meeting would be a better choice. No doubt this is what she was hoping to avoid. I'll let her do all the talking and see what can be deduced from what she says.

My main thought is this: in a normal system of consequences, those consequences are understood and explained. In this case, administering this severe of a punishment comes as a surprise to ME. And to DD as well who had no idea this was going to take place. Also, while I get that the teacher cant spend a lot of time on each student, I am failing to understand the complete lack of strategy as to what to do with a kid who doesn't just do what they are told the first time. I was told she needs to be told "repeatedly" to do things like stand in line, etc, and that her refusal to participate was "ratcheting it up". But kids don't do things they are told for a whole host of reasons and treating non participation as exactly the same as disobedience misses the bigger picture needed to actually solve the problem.

This is a teacher with 15 years experience at this school, probably more elsewhere. The Principal is also experienced.

Thoughts on any of this?

I should mention that a friend of mine who is a veteran teacher of the DCPS in some of the worst schools said this sounded "a little hard", especially given the school we are talking about.

Thanks.
-T

Remember, though, that in the 70s children started kindergarten at the age they're starting first grade now. For instance, like many of my classmates, I began kindergarten at the age of 4, and first grade at the age of 5.

[Anonymous]

I've seen districts less strict in the age requirement than I've seen in Maryland where testing in at 4 was common

[Anonymous]

If my daughter was to be indentified as having some type of problem,

I've identified your daughter's problem. It's you.

[Anonymous]

That wasn't my case. I'm 46. I was in montessori from 3-6, which meant I never attended a regular K class. I entered 1st grade at age 6. I have never heard of anyone going to K at 4. Are you a local? If not, maybe things were run differently elsewhere. I have no clue, as I've been a Marylander all of my life!

I think what the poster was referring to is the practice that children started kindergarten "the year they turned 5," not that they started K universally at age four. In my sister's case, in 1981, she started K at age 4, and turned 5 in December of that year. This was in MCPS, actually. I think we also saw many more K retentions back in the 70s-80s, probably with kids who would be red-shirted today. The current K cut-off is Sept. 1--I'm pretty sure "way back when" it was Dec. 31.

[Anonymous]

OP, that principal sounds like a nightmare. I have unfortunately seen principals like that. (I'm a teacher).
People seem really eager to dismiss you and if they haven't ever met this type of principal, they won't believe that they exist or they will say that your expectations are too high or whatever.

You sadly aren't in a great spot. There's not much you can do about a competent but emotionally bullying principal. Try to support your child the best you can is all.

[Anonymous]

So if this was such a terrible offense why didn't she report it to the central office?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

That wasn't my case. I'm 46. I was in montessori from 3-6, which meant I never attended a regular K class. I entered 1st grade at age 6. I have never heard of anyone going to K at 4. Are you a local? If not, maybe things were run differently elsewhere. I have no clue, as I've been a Marylander all of my life!

I think what the poster was referring to is the practice that children started kindergarten "the year they turned 5," not that they started K universally at age four. In my sister's case, in 1981, she started K at age 4, and turned 5 in December of that year. This was in MCPS, actually. I think we also saw many more K retentions back in the 70s-80s, probably with kids who would be red-shirted today. The current K cut-off is Sept. 1--I'm pretty sure "way back when" it was Dec. 31.

yes, in MCPS I started K at 4 and then turned 5 - in december, like your sister.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:That wasn't my case. I'm 46. I was in montessori from 3-6, which meant I never attended a regular K class. I entered 1st grade at age 6. I have never heard of anyone going to K at 4. Are you a local? If not, maybe things were run differently elsewhere. I have no clue, as I've been a Marylander all of my life!

I am local, a few years younger than you , and grew up in NOVA. Started K in 4 as did several other kids. Did they have a cut off date back then? It must have been past Dec. because I had two kids in my class growing up who had mid december bdays.

[Anonymous]

yes, in MCPS I started K at 4 and then turned 5 - in december, like your sister.

Me, too - also in MCPS.