Is the Principals office the standard "time out" for a Kindergartner who is not abusive or violent?

[Anonymous]

I hesitate to say what school I am referring to here, because this school is practically revered in MC.

My DD is almost six. She is smart, creative, with a sophisticated sense of humor. After initial excitement about school, running there the entire way on the first day, she has met great disappointment and heartache. I am trying to pull back here and take a long term view, but the signs are a bit iffy at this point

To her credit the teacher with whom I have been communicating is catching on that she is not aware that DD is being teased, and that is being in turn punished for standing up for herself as opposed to "being a tattletale". She is also thinking carefully about regrouping kids as needed to make class flow and allow everyone to have the best possible experience.

What she didnt know is that DD came from a preschool that had centers from which you could freely choose on any given day. There were three to four teachers in the class for a similar class size as hers (18). It was not entirely loose, with lots of routines, but the centers and engagement activities were free choice.

Well, not so here, and understandably DD doesnt understand. And when she didnt want to go to one center wanting instead to go to another, she felt taunted by the other kids (she is very sensitive, so no doubt the whole class didnt taunt her, but all it would really take is one). So she sat down and refused to move.

The teacher said she initially gave her a moment of time to do this, but then did the countdown and took her to the Principals office. There, according to my daughter, who is very aware of the difference between talking and yelling, said she was yelled at by the Principal. I asked DD if she was crying and she said yes. She was then made to eat lunch by herself in the hallway. All this because she sat down and refused to participate.

So I communicated with her teacher and wanted to know how I could find out more about this conversation the principal had with my daughter. I also talked on the phone with the teacher and let her know some of what she was missing. She said she was glad I told her, etc. She said that when DD sat down she was impeding the learning time of the other students, "because they are all looking at her" and had to be removed. I gotta tell ya, I dont quite see that as true at all. So it appears being sent to the Principals office is now the standard time out room. The yelling part I address today in a meeting with the principal, who called me on the way home from her cell phone while driving to address the question I had posed to the teacher. However, I told her a meeting would be a better choice. No doubt this is what she was hoping to avoid. I'll let her do all the talking and see what can be deduced from what she says.

My main thought is this: in a normal system of consequences, those consequences are understood and explained. In this case, administering this severe of a punishment comes as a surprise to ME. And to DD as well who had no idea this was going to take place. Also, while I get that the teacher cant spend a lot of time on each student, I am failing to understand the complete lack of strategy as to what to do with a kid who doesn't just do what they are told the first time. I was told she needs to be told "repeatedly" to do things like stand in line, etc, and that her refusal to participate was "ratcheting it up". But kids don't do things they are told for a whole host of reasons and treating non participation as exactly the same as disobedience misses the bigger picture needed to actually solve the problem.

This is a teacher with 15 years experience at this school, probably more elsewhere. The Principal is also experienced.

Thoughts on any of this?

I should mention that a friend of mine who is a veteran teacher of the DCPS in some of the worst schools said this sounded "a little hard", especially given the school we are talking about.

Thanks.
-T

[Anonymous]

Your child was disrupting the classroom. Yes, you will be sent to the principal's office if you disrupt the classroom and interfere with the educational process, and rightfully so. You also point out that sending your daughter to the principal as actually the third course of action taken by the teacher, not the reflex.

If in fact it's true that the principal yelled at your daughter, that's a problem, but I would view that claim with a great deal of skepticism. Especially since the principal has so much experience. Your child is likely exaggerating.

As for lunch, that could either be denying her the social time privilege. Or, it could be simply that she missed her lunch period and had to eat.

It's natural to focus suspicion on the school's response in these situations, but Occam's Razor likely applies: Your child was the problem, not the school. By your own admission, she isn't well-prepared for the perfectly normal expectations for classroom behavior. You may want to nip that in the bud quickly rather than get all confrontational with the school.

[Anonymous]

Your assumptions here are many. First, not sure where you got "third course of action". This was the first and only course of action in this instance. References by the teacher to other times of having to be told something repeatedly did not indicate she did not do them, and did not indicate they were disruptive. This was the first "disruption".

Secondly, your narrow minded view of "the problem" shows you missed the point entirely.

Finally, I did not "get all confrontational" with the school. Where did you presume this from? I had a great and very promising conversation with the most important person, the teacher.

Plenty of people in the world, including seasoned educators and people who devote a lot of time to these issues, feel that the model like the one being used in Kindergarten is not at all appropriate for that age group and is in itself a big problem. Many feel the expectations are not at all reasonable.

Of course, none of this was the topic. The topic was, in a given instance, is the Principals office the time out room?

Sounds like you got up on the wrong side of the bed, or are an MCPS troll, or just plain offended when anyone questions the status quo.

[Anonymous]

Further, you assume I have focused suspicion on the school. What are you talking about? I am asking a question about procedure. In your world, I guess this is focusing suspicion? Weird.

[Anonymous]

You said, "The teacher said she initially gave her a moment of time to do this, but then did the countdown and took her to the Principals office."

First course of action: Gave her a moment to comply.
Second course of action: Counted down.
Third course: Principal's office.

It was the third course of action.

You seem to be looking for validation that the school was somehow in the wrong here, and with that validation, some implicit permission to confront the school about it. That's what I meant by confrontation. What I'm saying is all of our first instincts are that the school is somehow at fault when there is an incident affecting our children. But usually, it's really the child who has caused the problem.

I'm not sure you are quite there yet. But you need to be genuinely open with the possibility and focus your efforts on challenging your child to behave better rather than challenging the school on the way it handles disruptive children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Further, you assume I have focused suspicion on the school. What are you talking about? I am asking a question about procedure. In your world, I guess this is focusing suspicion? Weird.

It is a very loaded question and you know it. The question is filled with suspicion and skepticism.

Yes, it's routine for children causing a disruption in class to be sent to the principal.

[Anonymous]

First, I dont need validation. I am asking a question. I'd like an answer from someone other than you.

Secondly I did not tell you all the details about my efforts here and course of action with my daughter about her behavior, so your assumption that I did not and wont do everything I can to handle unacceptable behavior is just that: an assumption. I did not feel I would need to provide my life story to ask a simple question.

Finally, your little "course of action" description really doesn't make sense. A countdown needs to have a consequence associated with it before the countdown. Otherwise what is being counted down to? A count down is supposed to be a warning for something else to happen. This warning was never issued by the teachers admission.


You are obviously an MCPS troll. Can you just give someone else a chance to respond here?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:First, I dont need validation. I am asking a question. I'd like an answer from someone other than you.

Secondly I did not tell you all the details about my efforts here and course of action with my daughter about her behavior, so your assumption that I did not and wont do everything I can to handle unacceptable behavior is just that: an assumption. I did not feel I would need to provide my life story to ask a simple question.

Finally, your little "course of action" description really doesn't make sense. A countdown needs to have a consequence associated with it before the countdown. Otherwise what is being counted down to? A count down is supposed to be a warning for something else to happen. This warning was never issued by the teachers admission.


You are obviously an MCPS troll. Can you just give someone else a chance to respond here?

Gladly. I answered your question. Explicitly. I'm sorry you don't like the answer and that you continue to fault in everybody (me included now) than your own child.

I'm not an MCPS troll. I picked the topic off "Recent Topics."

I defer to others now.

[Anonymous]

You sound like a real pain in the ass. Either get over yourself or homeschool.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You sound like a real pain in the ass. Either get over yourself or homeschool.

Top whom is this directed? OP or PP?

[Anonymous]

Agree with PP, unfortunately instructor does not have time to focus on students who don't have the maturity level to act appropriately. I wouldn't want that distraction in class nor would I want it to influence other students.

[Anonymous]

Wow OP, calm down.

The consequence of the countdown was the principal's office, right? Teacher gave DD a chance to collect herself -that didn't work. Then she started counting down, which is basically another chance for DD to collect herself, get up off of the floor, and move to the next center. However, DD didn't do this. So, the consequence of failing to comply to both chances to collect herself was going to the principal's office.

You'll find out today what happened at the principal's office. I'm sure she was stern but yelling? You'll have to decide for yourself after you hear her side of the story.

Your daughter sounds very typical of children who were not in structured pre-K. That's OK, she'll figure it out. Heck, my niece, who was a product of a free-thinking, child-led pre-K curriculum pulled the fire alarm on her 2nd day of K just to see what would happen. She's now a great student but it took her a little while to learn that there are rules and you have to comply.

Just go into your meeting today with an open mind and remain calm. If you go off on anybody for any reason throughout this process, you will have single-handedly destroyed your child's chance to get back on the right foot because you will forever be seen as a PITA parent. Sorry, but that's life.

[Anonymous]

OP, you are sounding very defensive - both here on these boards and with your DD's school issue. I don't have a problem with a kindergartener being sent to the principal's office for being disruptive in the classroom. K is all about learning a new routine and the new expectations.

My DS was sent to principal's office about 3 times during the first few months of K last year. The incidences weren't for non-participation in the classroom though. In some cases DS was testing the new rules and in one case he really couldn't have been expected to know better (that his behavior was inappropriate). All three times the principal would call me while DS was in her office - which I thought was great. While it was mortifying that my DS was getting sent to the principal, it sent a strong message to him right away and he never got sent there again after those first few months.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You sound like a real pain in the ass. Either get over yourself or homeschool.

Top whom is this directed? OP or PP?

OP.

[Anonymous]

Also agree with PP. I will add that when a child is sent to the principal, the whole school loses a peace day. In my experience it's not something done lightly. But given the description of events and your daughters lack of response to the teachers efforts, the trip to the principals office sounds warranted.