More Catholic pissing on women....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When person after person after person "hates" a religion, maybe you defenders should ask yourself - could there actually be anything about these religions that deserves the hatred? Could it be that there really is something reprehensible about these religions?

Sure, the church leadership is reprehensible.

But your broad brush of hatred includes the many concerned catholics who don't like their own leadership (some of whom are posting on this thread), and the wonderful nuns themselves. These people are part of the Catholic church too, but you ignore them completely.

Hatred and prejudice are broad brush problems. One symptom being a categorical refusal to understand nuance.

I agree with this. And I think that many Catholics understand perfectly well why person after person "hates" the Catholic church. Maybe you need to think about why people, even though they see the deep problems, still love the church. Why, for example, they love these nuns and would not desert them. The nuns were criticized for "doing too much work for the poor". Jesus I am sure is watching those nuns now from heaven and will support them. He knew you can never do "too much work for the poor". Of course, it may take a very long time. Maybe the people who "hate" and flee need a little patience. Whether we like it or not, God sometimes works very slowly. All the Catholic priests, monks, nuns, etc I know freely admit that the leadership of the church has had problems in the past, that it has done very bad things (for example, in the middle ages). But it has also done great things. I believe Catholic charities is the most efficient charity in the world. I think of all the brave priests and nuns who have died in South America standing up for the rights of the poor. Maybe no other church can offer up such a record of evil, but can any church offer up such a long, sustained, powerful record of good? Our world is a very complex place. If you refuse to deal with evil, you may find yourself also unable to do good. We could all be autonomous people just looking after ourselves and refusing to pay our taxes, our tithes, because somebody might do something with that that is evil, and we can just hang out with people who believe exact what we believe, and we can cast off everybody and everything that offends us and everybody who sins. We can refuse to try to help people change. We can bail when the going gets tough. Or we can hang in there and pray and fight, no matter how bad it gets. I know which I prefer. I'm part of this church, and I'm not going to leave it. I am going to pray for the nuns and for the value of their great work to be recognized.

[Anonymous]

Catholic here. I will stay with the church because it is my spiritual home and I think things will change. It is incredibly disheartening though to see the leadership go after the nuns like this while they hemmed, hawed, and covered up child rapists and I think Catholics need to be vocal in response to this, which many are. This will come back to bite the leadership in a big way, especially among American Catholics. Most of the faithful never engage with the bishops, but the nuns. And what a surprise - many women disagree with the Church's teachings on sexuality, especially contraceptives. In fact, even among those who have no problem with that teaching and maybe even agree with it, there are probably many who use contraceptives. And God forbid the nuns focus on serving the least fortunate among us; guess they should spend more time doing something productive, like picketing Planned Parenthood.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I'm not Catholic so I really don't give a rat's ass how the bishops treat the nuns.

NP, if you don't give a rat's ass, why bother to respond to this thread at all? Catholic or not, I find the Catholic patriarchal system disturbing. The years of brushing aside and HIDING abuse case after abuse case just floors me. I don't have to be Catholic to care, I can just be human.

It's the selectivity of your "caring" that's really disturbing. You're only here to bash the catholics, there are never DCUM threads about muslims or jews or anybody else. Tarring all catholics with your broad brush, including the nuns and concerned parishioners who try to work from change from within, is symptomatic of deep problems.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:
It's the selectivity of your "caring" that's really disturbing. You're only here to bash the catholics, there are never DCUM threads about muslims or jews or anybody else. Tarring all catholics with your broad brush, including the nuns and concerned parishioners who try to work from change from within, is symptomatic of deep problems.

You apparently don't read very many DCUM threads. There have been a number of threads about Jews and Muslims. Also, threads about gays, Hispanics, and African Americans.

Here is the cardinal rule of DCUM:

If you start a thread about Catholics, someone will say that you never would start a thread about Muslims, Jews, blacks, gays, etc.

If you start a thread about African Americans, someone will say that you would never start a thread about Catholics, Muslims, gays, etc.

If you start a thread about gays, someone will say that you would never start a thread about Catholics, Muslims, African Americans, etc.

If you start a thread about Muslims, someone will say that you would never start a thread about Catholics, African Americans, gays, etc.

The same is true for every minority group that I have failed to mention (of course, I failed to mention them because I would never start a thread about them).

I know that every group believes that it has won the Gold Medal in the Persecution Olympics. But, at least as far as DCUM is concerned, it is a shared prize.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It's the selectivity of your "caring" that's really disturbing. You're only here to bash the catholics, there are never DCUM threads about muslims or jews or anybody else. Tarring all catholics with your broad brush, including the nuns and concerned parishioners who try to work from change from within, is symptomatic of deep problems.

You apparently don't read very many DCUM threads. There have been a number of threads about Jews and Muslims. Also, threads about gays, Hispanics, and African Americans.

Here is the cardinal rule of DCUM:

If you start a thread about Catholics, someone will say that you never would start a thread about Muslims, Jews, blacks, gays, etc.

If you start a thread about African Americans, someone will say that you would never start a thread about Catholics, Muslims, gays, etc.

If you start a thread about gays, someone will say that you would never start a thread about Catholics, Muslims, African Americans, etc.

If you start a thread about Muslims, someone will say that you would never start a thread about Catholics, African Americans, gays, etc.

The same is true for every minority group that I have failed to mention (of course, I failed to mention them because I would never start a thread about them).

I know that every group believes that it has won the Gold Medal in the Persecution Olympics. But, at least as far as DCUM is concerned, it is a shared prize.

Thanks, Jeff. I've seen maybe 2-3 threads on Muslims in the past year. If you can document more, I'd be happy to be proven wrong. I don't recall a single thread, ever, about the limited role that some branches of Judaism give to women in services, et cetera. Again, I'd be happy if you can prove me wrong. But there seems to be an anti-catholic thread at least every month, sometimes every week. I'm not even catholic myself, which I guess is why I'm less accepting of the catholics here and maybe why I feel I can take this on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It's the selectivity of your "caring" that's really disturbing. You're only here to bash the catholics, there are never DCUM threads about muslims or jews or anybody else. Tarring all catholics with your broad brush, including the nuns and concerned parishioners who try to work from change from within, is symptomatic of deep problems.

You apparently don't read very many DCUM threads. There have been a number of threads about Jews and Muslims. Also, threads about gays, Hispanics, and African Americans.

Here is the cardinal rule of DCUM:

If you start a thread about Catholics, someone will say that you never would start a thread about Muslims, Jews, blacks, gays, etc.

If you start a thread about African Americans, someone will say that you would never start a thread about Catholics, Muslims, gays, etc.

If you start a thread about gays, someone will say that you would never start a thread about Catholics, Muslims, African Americans, etc.

If you start a thread about Muslims, someone will say that you would never start a thread about Catholics, African Americans, gays, etc.

The same is true for every minority group that I have failed to mention (of course, I failed to mention them because I would never start a thread about them).

I know that every group believes that it has won the Gold Medal in the Persecution Olympics. But, at least as far as DCUM is concerned, it is a shared prize.

Thanks, Jeff. I've seen maybe 2-3 threads on Muslims in the past year. If you can document more, I'd be happy to be proven wrong. I don't recall a single thread, ever, about the limited role that some branches of Judaism give to women in services, et cetera. Again, I'd be happy if you can prove me wrong. But there seems to be an anti-catholic thread at least every month, sometimes every week. I'm not even catholic myself, which I guess is why I'm less accepting of the catholics here and maybe why I feel I can take this on.

^^^ I meant "less accepting THAN the catholics here"

[Anonymous]

10:18 again, sorry but I'm pissed. And when Islam or Judaism do come up on DCUM, it's always a small sliver of the religion, like "how can you wear a veil" instead of a wholesale indictment of the entire religion and all its believers (like the several "how can you stay in the Catholic Church" threads or some of the PPs on this thread). And I can't even remember a similar thread on Judaism, even concerning some small aspect of the faith never mind the whole religion, but again you can go ahead and prove me wrong. The last thread on Islam was started by a Muslim herself ("I'm Muslim, ask me anything") maybe a month ago, and the discussion, in which I participated, was mostly on things like arcane rules of the religion rather than something like the PP who says "when lots of people hate you maybe it's your own fault."

For the record, I think the Vatican is totally wrong, but I admire the nuns. And I think the posters who stereotype Blacks, gays, and hispanics are totally wrong.

But how do we get from being AGAINST prejudice against blacks, gays and hispanics, to saying we should ACCEPT prejudice against Catholics?

But apparently lots of folks here think that's logical. Or, maybe I'm just sick of a certain type of dialogue on DCUM.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:10:18 again, sorry but I'm pissed. And when Islam or Judaism do come up on DCUM, it's always a small sliver of the religion, like "how can you wear a veil" instead of a wholesale indictment of the entire religion and all its believers (like the several "how can you stay in the Catholic Church" threads or some of the PPs on this thread). And I can't even remember a similar thread on Judaism, even concerning some small aspect of the faith never mind the whole religion, but again you can go ahead and prove me wrong. The last thread on Islam was started by a Muslim herself ("I'm Muslim, ask me anything") maybe a month ago, and the discussion, in which I participated, was mostly on things like arcane rules of the religion rather than something like the PP who says "when lots of people hate you maybe it's your own fault."

Issues regarding Muslims come up in a lot of other threads, especially in the Political Forum. But, here is a pretty extensive thread that contains its share of prejudice:

http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/84532.page

You asked for a pretty narrow example of a thread involving Judaism. I'm not sure why because if you narrowed down Catholic threads in a similar manner, it would also be a short list. But, the independent schools forum is full of threads that have been reported to me because of anti-Jewish statements. Some DCUM veterans will remember that it was a thread involving Jews that set off "she who will not be named" on the mother of all rampages.

The Catholic threads get reported to me all the time as well. From my reading, they normally are aimed at the institutions of the church such as the bishops and the Vatican rather than a wholesale indictment of the members. Also, these threads are notable by the fact that the harshest posts are almost always from former Catholics.

Regardless, I'm not saying that prejudice against Catholics, or anyone else for that matter, should be accepted or that Catholics should not be offended. I just get pretty tired of everyone feeling like they are the only ones who ever get singled out. And, don't even get me started on white posters who never miss a chance to write, "if a white person said that...".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I'm not Catholic so I really don't give a rat's ass how the bishops treat the nuns.

NP, if you don't give a rat's ass, why bother to respond to this thread at all? Catholic or not, I find the Catholic patriarchal system disturbing. The years of brushing aside and HIDING abuse case after abuse case just floors me. I don't have to be Catholic to care, I can just be human.

It's the selectivity of your "caring" that's really disturbing. You're only here to bash the catholics, there are never DCUM threads about muslims or jews or anybody else. Tarring all catholics with your broad brush, including the nuns and concerned parishioners who try to work from change from within, is symptomatic of deep problems.
I didn't bash the Catholics, I just said I really don't care how the bishops treat the nuns. I went to Catholic school, trust me, the nuns can take care of themselves and really don't need you sitting around wringing your hands about it. I can bash Muslims if that would make you feel better.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:10:18 again, sorry but I'm pissed. And when Islam or Judaism do come up on DCUM, it's always a small sliver of the religion, like "how can you wear a veil" instead of a wholesale indictment of the entire religion and all its believers (like the several "how can you stay in the Catholic Church" threads or some of the PPs on this thread). And I can't even remember a similar thread on Judaism, even concerning some small aspect of the faith never mind the whole religion, but again you can go ahead and prove me wrong. The last thread on Islam was started by a Muslim herself ("I'm Muslim, ask me anything") maybe a month ago, and the discussion, in which I participated, was mostly on things like arcane rules of the religion rather than something like the PP who says "when lots of people hate you maybe it's your own fault."

Issues regarding Muslims come up in a lot of other threads, especially in the Political Forum. But, here is a pretty extensive thread that contains its share of prejudice:

http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/84532.page

You asked for a pretty narrow example of a thread involving Judaism. I'm not sure why because if you narrowed down Catholic threads in a similar manner, it would also be a short list. But, the independent schools forum is full of threads that have been reported to me because of anti-Jewish statements. Some DCUM veterans will remember that it was a thread involving Jews that set off "she who will not be named" on the mother of all rampages.

The Catholic threads get reported to me all the time as well. From my reading, they normally are aimed at the institutions of the church such as the bishops and the Vatican rather than a wholesale indictment of the members. Also, these threads are notable by the fact that the harshest posts are almost always from former Catholics.

Regardless, I'm not saying that prejudice against Catholics, or anyone else for that matter, should be accepted or that Catholics should not be offended. I just get pretty tired of everyone feeling like they are the only ones who ever get singled out. And, don't even get me started on white posters who never miss a chance to write, "if a white person said that...".

OK, fair enough. I avoid the Political Forum because I'm expert on a several economic (not racial or religious) issues that are at the top of many politicians' agendas, and I don't see the percentage in getting frustrated arguing with people who just don't want to understand something. I'm a liberal dem, if that helps knowing where I'm coming from.

I weigh in on Islam because it's low cost for me, because I had a fabulous teacher in college. And on Catholics because they seem to have no defenders here. In other words, the Catholics seem to be walking the walk in terms of turning the other cheek (yes, mixed metaphor), and I, as a non-Catholic, am the only one here getting pissed and defending them. The blacks and jews and hispanics have plenty of defenders here, as they should. But the Catholics, not so much.

And yeah, when I'm bored, I like word wars with people like the PPs here, who clearly don't see their own hypocrisy. So shoot me.

Why is it wrong to say to another poster, "you think you're enlightened and you'd never do this to a black, hispanic or jew, but look at you lumping all Catholics into one pot and pissing on them" (to use OP's own language. That's all I'm doing here. Maybe I need another hobby.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I'm not Catholic so I really don't give a rat's ass how the bishops treat the nuns.

NP, if you don't give a rat's ass, why bother to respond to this thread at all? Catholic or not, I find the Catholic patriarchal system disturbing. The years of brushing aside and HIDING abuse case after abuse case just floors me. I don't have to be Catholic to care, I can just be human.

It's the selectivity of your "caring" that's really disturbing. You're only here to bash the catholics, there are never DCUM threads about muslims or jews or anybody else. Tarring all catholics with your broad brush, including the nuns and concerned parishioners who try to work from change from within, is symptomatic of deep problems.

I didn't bash the Catholics, I just said I really don't care how the bishops treat the nuns. I went to Catholic school, trust me, the nuns can take care of themselves and really don't need you sitting around wringing your hands about it. I can bash Muslims if that would make you feel better.

"Catholics Pissing on Women," your thread title, is as broad brush as you can get. You've included the nuns in your own thread title. Was this merely a stupid oversight?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I'm not Catholic so I really don't give a rat's ass how the bishops treat the nuns.

NP, if you don't give a rat's ass, why bother to respond to this thread at all? Catholic or not, I find the Catholic patriarchal system disturbing. The years of brushing aside and HIDING abuse case after abuse case just floors me. I don't have to be Catholic to care, I can just be human.

It's the selectivity of your "caring" that's really disturbing. You're only here to bash the catholics, there are never DCUM threads about muslims or jews or anybody else. Tarring all catholics with your broad brush, including the nuns and concerned parishioners who try to work from change from within, is symptomatic of deep problems.

I didn't bash the Catholics, I just said I really don't care how the bishops treat the nuns. I went to Catholic school, trust me, the nuns can take care of themselves and really don't need you sitting around wringing your hands about it. I can bash Muslims if that would make you feel better.

"Catholics Pissing on Women," your thread title, is as broad brush as you can get. You've included the nuns in your own thread title. Was this merely a stupid oversight?
I am not OP, I'm the PP who said to OP that I really don't give a rat's ass how the bishops treat the nuns when OP got all pissy because I told her to brush the chip off her shoulder and move on. Save your ire for OP. I have no problem with Catholics.

[Anonymous]

11:31 again. Jeff, have you ever come on a thread to say "stop feeling persecuted as a black person" or "stop feeling persecuted as a jew"? Or is only the defenders of Catholics who get this treatment?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:11:31 again. Jeff, have you ever come on a thread to say "stop feeling persecuted as a black person" or "stop feeling persecuted as a jew"? Or is only the defenders of Catholics who get this treatment?

I'm not Jeff, but I've seen both.

[Anonymous]

This thread has gotten off track. No the OP, but a Catholic who is deeply disturbed by the recent Vatican attack on American nuns. As an American woman, I feel it is a personal attack. And deeply disturbed and saddened by what I see as the hierarchy's lack of concern with or compassion for the realities of women's lives. In fact, I think the hierarchy disdains women. That's how I feel, as a Catholic. I'm not bashing all Catholics. I love many aspects of the church. This seems to be a forum with a number of Catholics, so I've posted here about my sadness surrounding the things in the church that I find unacceptable, in hopes of connecting with other Catholics. For the PP who came on and said just leave the church if you have a problem with it- problem solved- that PP is way off base. Leaving the church is like estranging yourself from your family, divorcing your husband after 40 years of marriage. It's heartbreaking. I do t want to leave, I want to vent.