More Catholic pissing on women....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My job is to accept the slapdown and slink off with my tail between my legs, suitably reprimanded. So I'll slink off.

I still don't understand why you believe you were slapped down. I have no issue with your protesting what you perceive to be anti-Catholic statements. You seem to believe that a technical correction means that I oppose your entire argument. If someone posted that the Chinese government is inhumane in its treatment of Tibetans and that 2 plus 2 equals 5, would someone replying that 2 plus 2 actually equals 4 be accused of supporting China's oppression and criticized for not attacking China instead?

Do you sometimes feel like the recess lady, and everyone is pulling on your skirt hem to tell on each other?

Do you sometimes feel like the goody-two-shoes who tells the teacher, "it wasn't me, I told them to stop!"

[Anonymous]

I think there are a few reasons the church is often the subject of vitriol on DCUM and I don't think it's as simple as some of the Catholics on here would like to posit. It isn't just bigotry.

1. The church often inserts itself into modern politics. Not saying it shouldn't (not saying it should either). I'm saying that draws the attention of many people who would otherwise be uninvolved or unaware of/in the beliefs of Catholics.

2. The church has taken positions on topics that are controversial and has lots of members in influential positions of government. How many Muslims are on the Supreme Court? Or for that matter Mormons or Baptists? Catholics are the majority on the court right now. Muslims/Jews in Congress? Far fewer than there are Catholics. Are Muslims opposed to birth control? Do they actively lobby in opposition to gay marriage? Maybe they do oppose gay marriage (I don't know) but they aren't as vocal about it.

3. The Catholic church has a much more centralized and vocal leadership than Jews or Muslims. They can "rally the have troops" so to speak and get their message out much more effectively than those other religious groups. Mormons do too (and there is lots of periodic Mormon bashing on here) but there aren't as many Mormons in leadership positions in the government.

4. The sex abuse scandal. No one can possibly excuse the church's handling of this and it shocked many people with the level of institutional harm done to children on part of the church. It brought a lot of non-Catholics into a conversation about an institution they may otherwise have largely ignored. Read this article...the sex abuse scandal is not over and man some of the Cardinals and archbishops (like Bevilaqua of Philadelphia) behaved in truly repugnant and reprehensible ways during all this. http://www.phillymag.com/scripts/print/article.php?asset_idx=299437

I know Catholics have been subjected to suspicion about their motives and beliefs for a long time. But I honestly think the church, not individual Catholics, have drawn a lot of negative attention to themselves over the past decade. Some of it intentional, some of it not. But those are the reasons I think people have more to say about the church than Jews or Muslims on here, and I think they are about more than simple bigotry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My job is to accept the slapdown and slink off with my tail between my legs, suitably reprimanded. So I'll slink off.

I still don't understand why you believe you were slapped down. I have no issue with your protesting what you perceive to be anti-Catholic statements. You seem to believe that a technical correction means that I oppose your entire argument. If someone posted that the Chinese government is inhumane in its treatment of Tibetans and that 2 plus 2 equals 5, would someone replying that 2 plus 2 actually equals 4 be accused of supporting China's oppression and criticized for not attacking China instead?

Do you sometimes feel like the recess lady, and everyone is pulling on your skirt hem to tell on each other?

Do you sometimes feel like the goody-two-shoes who tells the teacher, "it wasn't me, I told them to stop!"

No.

[Anonymous]

NP here. It seems that American bishops are bringing this down on the nuns because of the health care reform issue. LCWR said it would accept the Obama compromise and that ticked the bishops off. There are a number of negative blogs written by priests out there against the LCWR. They are "too liberal" for a lot of priests. Priests don't mind exploiting that cheap labor though. I think the whole thing is sad. I was educated by nuns and didn't experience any of the negative stereotypes that are being promoted now. I don't think they deserve this public humiliation. The Church doesn't even care enough about them to have this conversation privately. For me, there's not much reason to be Catholic now because what I loved about Catholocism was its commitment to social justice. They've moved from that into all Catholic doctrine all the time and I get tired of their issues with homosexuality, that's all these conservative priests want to focus on. The priests today just don't seem as intelligent as the ones that taught and were pastors in the 70s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP here. It seems that American bishops are bringing this down on the nuns because of the health care reform issue. LCWR said it would accept the Obama compromise and that ticked the bishops off. There are a number of negative blogs written by priests out there against the LCWR. They are "too liberal" for a lot of priests. Priests don't mind exploiting that cheap labor though. I think the whole thing is sad. I was educated by nuns and didn't experience any of the negative stereotypes that are being promoted now. I don't think they deserve this public humiliation. The Church doesn't even care enough about them to have this conversation privately. For me, there's not much reason to be Catholic now because what I loved about Catholocism was its commitment to social justice. They've moved from that into all Catholic doctrine all the time and I get tired of their issues with homosexuality, that's all these conservative priests want to focus on. The priests today just don't seem as intelligent as the ones that taught and were pastors in the 70s.

What are some of those priest blogs? I'm just curious about them, if you don't mind posting them, or at least enough info for me to find them and read what they are saying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:11:31 again. Jeff, have you ever come on a thread to say "stop feeling persecuted as a black person" or "stop feeling persecuted as a jew"? Or is only the defenders of Catholics who get this treatment?

I'm not Jeff, but I've seen both.

I have never seen either. Honestly.

Another question for Jeff: why, on this thread at least, are you criticizing the people who call out the trollery/bigotry, and not the trolls/bigots themselves? How hard would it be for you to slap 19:04 back with "And how do you know your ancestor wasn't Attila the Hun?" Coming from you, that might have had an impact. Instead, you go after those who criticize 19:04 and her ilk, giving the impression that DCUM sanctions open season on Catholics (or name your group that is feeling persecuted).

I'm sure that if I asked someone whether their ancestor was Attila the Hun, someone would suggest that I would never ask someone whether their ancestor was Alexander the Great or Saladin. I was not taking a side in the pro and anti Catholic debate. I was simply pointing out the fallacy of suggesting that only Catholics are targeted for criticism here.

I think that if your goal is to oppose prejudice against Catholics, there are stronger arguments than suggesting that only Catholics are victims of prejudice.

I never said *only* Catholics are victims of prejudice, and you can check my posts to verify this. I certainly don't think so, either. But when somebody comes on DCUM to say stupid things about minorities in publics schools, I cringe, but I'm sure that poster will get slapped down fast and furious. My input isn't particularly valuable, because by the time I've hit "submit" a gazillion other posters have blasted the bigot.

My point is: when you, the moderator, weigh in against the troll/bigot-buster and not against the troll/bigot, you can be sure the troll/bigots think they just got a free pass.

Well he hasn't weighed in on all the bigots on the thread involving the woman who lost her four children in the fire. I think a ton of people should be biatch slapped for their atrocious comments on that thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP here. It seems that American bishops are bringing this down on the nuns because of the health care reform issue. LCWR said it would accept the Obama compromise and that ticked the bishops off. There are a number of negative blogs written by priests out there against the LCWR. They are "too liberal" for a lot of priests. Priests don't mind exploiting that cheap labor though. I think the whole thing is sad. I was educated by nuns and didn't experience any of the negative stereotypes that are being promoted now. I don't think they deserve this public humiliation. The Church doesn't even care enough about them to have this conversation privately. For me, there's not much reason to be Catholic now because what I loved about Catholocism was its commitment to social justice. They've moved from that into all Catholic doctrine all the time and I get tired of their issues with homosexuality, that's all these conservative priests want to focus on. The priests today just don't seem as intelligent as the ones that taught and were pastors in the 70s.

Whoa -- way misinformation being stated here. The LCWR has been in hot water for at least 10 years regarding their deviations from Catholic theology. There was nothing stunning or new for the leadership over there. They haven't changed their ways but perhaps were shocked that the Bishops finally called their bluff publically. There is a huge division within WR about the LCWR and if they are actually representational of the nuns that we all grew up with in our parishes. In addition the report clearly mentions that the LCWR has done a lot of work in social justic according to Church teachings. Those weren't the problems with LCWR.

The Vatican actually established the LCWR so you can look at it like your boss putting you on probatio for years (10 at a minimum), trying to help you to correct your ways then finally having to fire you because you just won't listen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP here. It seems that American bishops are bringing this down on the nuns because of the health care reform issue. LCWR said it would accept the Obama compromise and that ticked the bishops off. There are a number of negative blogs written by priests out there against the LCWR. They are "too liberal" for a lot of priests. Priests don't mind exploiting that cheap labor though. I think the whole thing is sad. I was educated by nuns and didn't experience any of the negative stereotypes that are being promoted now. I don't think they deserve this public humiliation. The Church doesn't even care enough about them to have this conversation privately. For me, there's not much reason to be Catholic now because what I loved about Catholocism was its commitment to social justice. They've moved from that into all Catholic doctrine all the time and I get tired of their issues with homosexuality, that's all these conservative priests want to focus on. The priests today just don't seem as intelligent as the ones that taught and were pastors in the 70s.

Truly an offensive statement. That says a lot more about you than about any priest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think there are a few reasons the church is often the subject of vitriol on DCUM and I don't think it's as simple as some of the Catholics on here would like to posit. It isn't just bigotry.

1. The church often inserts itself into modern politics. Not saying it shouldn't (not saying it should either). I'm saying that draws the attention of many people who would otherwise be uninvolved or unaware of/in the beliefs of Catholics.

2. The church has taken positions on topics that are controversial and has lots of members in influential positions of government. How many Muslims are on the Supreme Court? Or for that matter Mormons or Baptists? Catholics are the majority on the court right now. Muslims/Jews in Congress? Far fewer than there are Catholics. Are Muslims opposed to birth control? Do they actively lobby in opposition to gay marriage? Maybe they do oppose gay marriage (I don't know) but they aren't as vocal about it.

3. The Catholic church has a much more centralized and vocal leadership than Jews or Muslims. They can "rally the have troops" so to speak and get their message out much more effectively than those other religious groups. Mormons do too (and there is lots of periodic Mormon bashing on here) but there aren't as many Mormons in leadership positions in the government.

4. The sex abuse scandal. No one can possibly excuse the church's handling of this and it shocked many people with the level of institutional harm done to children on part of the church. It brought a lot of non-Catholics into a conversation about an institution they may otherwise have largely ignored. Read this article...the sex abuse scandal is not over and man some of the Cardinals and archbishops (like Bevilaqua of Philadelphia) behaved in truly repugnant and reprehensible ways during all this. http://www.phillymag.com/scripts/print/article.php?asset_idx=299437

I know Catholics have been subjected to suspicion about their motives and beliefs for a long time. But I honestly think the church, not individual Catholics, have drawn a lot of negative attention to themselves over the past decade. Some of it intentional, some of it not. But those are the reasons I think people have more to say about the church than Jews or Muslims on here, and I think they are about more than simple bigotry.

Yes. All of this. Plus many of us are or were Catholics and as one born and bred, I feel entitled to bitch. Plus, because THE CHURCH has one centralized mouthpiece, the statements they make which some of us find objectionable tar all Catholic churches as a result. No matter how extreme some muslim practices may seem to us, no one mosque sets the tone for all of islam. There also is no overarching Jewish authority.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP here. It seems that American bishops are bringing this down on the nuns because of the health care reform issue. LCWR said it would accept the Obama compromise and that ticked the bishops off. There are a number of negative blogs written by priests out there against the LCWR. They are "too liberal" for a lot of priests. Priests don't mind exploiting that cheap labor though. I think the whole thing is sad. I was educated by nuns and didn't experience any of the negative stereotypes that are being promoted now. I don't think they deserve this public humiliation. The Church doesn't even care enough about them to have this conversation privately. For me, there's not much reason to be Catholic now because what I loved about Catholocism was its commitment to social justice. They've moved from that into all Catholic doctrine all the time and I get tired of their issues with homosexuality, that's all these conservative priests want to focus on. The priests today just don't seem as intelligent as the ones that taught and were pastors in the 70s.

Whoa -- way misinformation being stated here. The LCWR has been in hot water for at least 10 years regarding their deviations from Catholic theology. There was nothing stunning or new for the leadership over there. They haven't changed their ways but perhaps were shocked that the Bishops finally called their bluff publically. There is a huge division within WR about the LCWR and if they are actually representational of the nuns that we all grew up with in our parishes. In addition the report clearly mentions that the LCWR has done a lot of work in social justic according to Church teachings. Those weren't the problems with LCWR.

The Vatican actually established the LCWR so you can look at it like your boss putting you on probatio for years (10 at a minimum), trying to help you to correct your ways then finally having to fire you because you just won't listen.

To a lot of people, this is exactly the problem of the Catholic Church. If even the nuns don't cut it, then the problem isn't the employees but the employer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP here. It seems that American bishops are bringing this down on the nuns because of the health care reform issue. LCWR said it would accept the Obama compromise and that ticked the bishops off. There are a number of negative blogs written by priests out there against the LCWR. They are "too liberal" for a lot of priests. Priests don't mind exploiting that cheap labor though. I think the whole thing is sad. I was educated by nuns and didn't experience any of the negative stereotypes that are being promoted now. I don't think they deserve this public humiliation. The Church doesn't even care enough about them to have this conversation privately. For me, there's not much reason to be Catholic now because what I loved about Catholocism was its commitment to social justice. They've moved from that into all Catholic doctrine all the time and I get tired of their issues with homosexuality, that's all these conservative priests want to focus on. The priests today just don't seem as intelligent as the ones that taught and were pastors in the 70s.

Truly an offensive statement. That says a lot more about you than about any priest.

Why is it an offensive statement? Nuns accept a stipend and cannot accumulate any wealth. Period. They take a vow of poverty. Priests do not. And yes, Catholic schools were able to operate because nuns did much of the teaching so the costs were low. I am a lifelong Catholic, went to Catholic schools all my life, and I am as entitled to my opinion as you are to yours.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP here. It seems that American bishops are bringing this down on the nuns because of the health care reform issue. LCWR said it would accept the Obama compromise and that ticked the bishops off. There are a number of negative blogs written by priests out there against the LCWR. They are "too liberal" for a lot of priests. Priests don't mind exploiting that cheap labor though. I think the whole thing is sad. I was educated by nuns and didn't experience any of the negative stereotypes that are being promoted now. I don't think they deserve this public humiliation. The Church doesn't even care enough about them to have this conversation privately. For me, there's not much reason to be Catholic now because what I loved about Catholocism was its commitment to social justice. They've moved from that into all Catholic doctrine all the time and I get tired of their issues with homosexuality, that's all these conservative priests want to focus on. The priests today just don't seem as intelligent as the ones that taught and were pastors in the 70s.

Whoa -- way misinformation being stated here. The LCWR has been in hot water for at least 10 years regarding their deviations from Catholic theology. There was nothing stunning or new for the leadership over there. They haven't changed their ways but perhaps were shocked that the Bishops finally called their bluff publically. There is a huge division within WR about the LCWR and if they are actually representational of the nuns that we all grew up with in our parishes. In addition the report clearly mentions that the LCWR has done a lot of work in social justic according to Church teachings. Those weren't the problems with LCWR.

The Vatican actually established the LCWR so you can look at it like your boss putting you on probatio for years (10 at a minimum), trying to help you to correct your ways then finally having to fire you because you just won't listen.

What misinformation? It's my opinion that the US Conference of Bishops decided to bring their wrath down on the nuns thanks to this issue. The real reasons are unclear because the report is vague and does not offer any evidence to support its conclusions. You are welcome to your own opinions. If the USCCB decides to actually share it's evidence and provide specifics, then maybe we can have an informed discussion. Until then, to me it looks like a witch hunt.