More Catholic pissing on women....

[Anonymous]

That should say I *don't want to leave...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:11:31 again. Jeff, have you ever come on a thread to say "stop feeling persecuted as a black person" or "stop feeling persecuted as a jew"? Or is only the defenders of Catholics who get this treatment?

I'm not Jeff, but I've seen both.

I have never seen either. Honestly.

Another question for Jeff: why, on this thread at least, are you criticizing the people who call out the trollery/bigotry, and not the trolls/bigots themselves? How hard would it be for you to slap 19:04 back with "And how do you know your ancestor wasn't Attila the Hun?" Coming from you, that might have had an impact. Instead, you go after those who criticize 19:04 and her ilk, giving the impression that DCUM sanctions open season on Catholics (or name your group that is feeling persecuted).

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:11:31 again. Jeff, have you ever come on a thread to say "stop feeling persecuted as a black person" or "stop feeling persecuted as a jew"? Or is only the defenders of Catholics who get this treatment?

I'm not Jeff, but I've seen both.

I have never seen either. Honestly.

Another question for Jeff: why, on this thread at least, are you criticizing the people who call out the trollery/bigotry, and not the trolls/bigots themselves? How hard would it be for you to slap 19:04 back with "And how do you know your ancestor wasn't Attila the Hun?" Coming from you, that might have had an impact. Instead, you go after those who criticize 19:04 and her ilk, giving the impression that DCUM sanctions open season on Catholics (or name your group that is feeling persecuted).

I'm sure that if I asked someone whether their ancestor was Attila the Hun, someone would suggest that I would never ask someone whether their ancestor was Alexander the Great or Saladin. I was not taking a side in the pro and anti Catholic debate. I was simply pointing out the fallacy of suggesting that only Catholics are targeted for criticism here.

I think that if your goal is to oppose prejudice against Catholics, there are stronger arguments than suggesting that only Catholics are victims of prejudice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It's the selectivity of your "caring" that's really disturbing. You're only here to bash the catholics, there are never DCUM threads about muslims or jews or anybody else. Tarring all catholics with your broad brush, including the nuns and concerned parishioners who try to work from change from within, is symptomatic of deep problems.

You apparently don't read very many DCUM threads. There have been a number of threads about Jews and Muslims. Also, threads about gays, Hispanics, and African Americans.

Here is the cardinal rule of DCUM:

If you start a thread about Catholics, someone will say that you never would start a thread about Muslims, Jews, blacks, gays, etc.

If you start a thread about African Americans, someone will say that you would never start a thread about Catholics, Muslims, gays, etc.

If you start a thread about gays, someone will say that you would never start a thread about Catholics, Muslims, African Americans, etc.

If you start a thread about Muslims, someone will say that you would never start a thread about Catholics, African Americans, gays, etc.

The same is true for every minority group that I have failed to mention (of course, I failed to mention them because I would never start a thread about them).

I know that every group believes that it has won the Gold Medal in the Persecution Olympics. But, at least as far as DCUM is concerned, it is a shared prize.

Thanks, Jeff. I've seen maybe 2-3 threads on Muslims in the past year. If you can document more, I'd be happy to be proven wrong. I don't recall a single thread, ever, about the limited role that some branches of Judaism give to women in services, et cetera. Again, I'd be happy if you can prove me wrong. But there seems to be an anti-catholic thread at least every month, sometimes every week. I'm not even catholic myself, which I guess is why I'm less accepting of the catholics here and maybe why I feel I can take this on.

Catholics are 24% of the US population. Is it surprising that the topic comes up more?

If you want to see the number of anti-Islam posts, go to the political forum. You won't have any trouble finding them there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:11:31 again. Jeff, have you ever come on a thread to say "stop feeling persecuted as a black person" or "stop feeling persecuted as a jew"? Or is only the defenders of Catholics who get this treatment?

I'm not Jeff, but I've seen both.

I have never seen either. Honestly.

Another question for Jeff: why, on this thread at least, are you criticizing the people who call out the trollery/bigotry, and not the trolls/bigots themselves? How hard would it be for you to slap 19:04 back with "And how do you know your ancestor wasn't Attila the Hun?" Coming from you, that might have had an impact. Instead, you go after those who criticize 19:04 and her ilk, giving the impression that DCUM sanctions open season on Catholics (or name your group that is feeling persecuted).

Can you identify the posts where you provided the "slap back" to unreasonable people on your side of the issue? It would be hypocritical for you to expect something of one poster, even Jeff, if you don't do it yourself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:11:31 again. Jeff, have you ever come on a thread to say "stop feeling persecuted as a black person" or "stop feeling persecuted as a jew"? Or is only the defenders of Catholics who get this treatment?

I'm not Jeff, but I've seen both.

I have never seen either. Honestly.

Another question for Jeff: why, on this thread at least, are you criticizing the people who call out the trollery/bigotry, and not the trolls/bigots themselves? How hard would it be for you to slap 19:04 back with "And how do you know your ancestor wasn't Attila the Hun?" Coming from you, that might have had an impact. Instead, you go after those who criticize 19:04 and her ilk, giving the impression that DCUM sanctions open season on Catholics (or name your group that is feeling persecuted).

Can you identify the posts where you provided the "slap back" to unreasonable people on your side of the issue? It would be hypocritical for you to expect something of one poster, even Jeff, if you don't do it yourself.

Sure, easy-peasy. I'm 9:08 who thanked that PP for the historical lesson, but pointed her many omissions and questioned her maturity. Jeff can verify this.

I think we agree, though, that Jeff's posts have greater weight than mine.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:11:31 again. Jeff, have you ever come on a thread to say "stop feeling persecuted as a black person" or "stop feeling persecuted as a jew"? Or is only the defenders of Catholics who get this treatment?

I'm not Jeff, but I've seen both.

I have never seen either. Honestly.

Another question for Jeff: why, on this thread at least, are you criticizing the people who call out the trollery/bigotry, and not the trolls/bigots themselves? How hard would it be for you to slap 19:04 back with "And how do you know your ancestor wasn't Attila the Hun?" Coming from you, that might have had an impact. Instead, you go after those who criticize 19:04 and her ilk, giving the impression that DCUM sanctions open season on Catholics (or name your group that is feeling persecuted).

I'm sure that if I asked someone whether their ancestor was Attila the Hun, someone would suggest that I would never ask someone whether their ancestor was Alexander the Great or Saladin. I was not taking a side in the pro and anti Catholic debate. I was simply pointing out the fallacy of suggesting that only Catholics are targeted for criticism here.

I think that if your goal is to oppose prejudice against Catholics, there are stronger arguments than suggesting that only Catholics are victims of prejudice.

I never said *only* Catholics are victims of prejudice, and you can check my posts to verify this. I certainly don't think so, either. But when somebody comes on DCUM to say stupid things about minorities in publics schools, I cringe, but I'm sure that poster will get slapped down fast and furious. My input isn't particularly valuable, because by the time I've hit "submit" a gazillion other posters have blasted the bigot.

My point is: when you, the moderator, weigh in against the troll/bigot-buster and not against the troll/bigot, you can be sure the troll/bigots think they just got a free pass.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It's the selectivity of your "caring" that's really disturbing. You're only here to bash the catholics, there are never DCUM threads about muslims or jews or anybody else. Tarring all catholics with your broad brush, including the nuns and concerned parishioners who try to work from change from within, is symptomatic of deep problems.

You apparently don't read very many DCUM threads. There have been a number of threads about Jews and Muslims. Also, threads about gays, Hispanics, and African Americans.

Here is the cardinal rule of DCUM:

If you start a thread about Catholics, someone will say that you never would start a thread about Muslims, Jews, blacks, gays, etc.

If you start a thread about African Americans, someone will say that you would never start a thread about Catholics, Muslims, gays, etc.

If you start a thread about gays, someone will say that you would never start a thread about Catholics, Muslims, African Americans, etc.

If you start a thread about Muslims, someone will say that you would never start a thread about Catholics, African Americans, gays, etc.

The same is true for every minority group that I have failed to mention (of course, I failed to mention them because I would never start a thread about them).

I know that every group believes that it has won the Gold Medal in the Persecution Olympics. But, at least as far as DCUM is concerned, it is a shared prize.

Thanks, Jeff. I've seen maybe 2-3 threads on Muslims in the past year. If you can document more, I'd be happy to be proven wrong. I don't recall a single thread, ever, about the limited role that some branches of Judaism give to women in services, et cetera. Again, I'd be happy if you can prove me wrong. But there seems to be an anti-catholic thread at least every month, sometimes every week. I'm not even catholic myself, which I guess is why I'm less accepting of the catholics here and maybe why I feel I can take this on.

How about this: Have some cooth, and stop posting criticism of ANY religion (or race, or gender, or sexual preference, etc.)

Again, go get bubba and get back to hoggin'.

BTW, again, I think the KKK is accepting applications.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:
My point is: when you, the moderator, weigh in against the troll/bigot-buster and not against the troll/bigot, you can be sure the troll/bigots think they just got a free pass.

Fair enough, but I think we are having two different conversations. I didn't weigh in against a bigot-buster. I weighed in regarding this statement:

"there are never DCUM threads about muslims or jews or anybody else."

That is a factually incorrect statement. I tried to make clear that this type of false statement is not limited to defenders of Catholics, but is common among members of any group that is subject to criticism on DCUM.

I am not taking a position in the Catholic/anti-Catholic debate. I am taking a position on the one topic on which I can claim some expertise: threads that have been posted on DCUM.

I am sure that you agree that false statements do not strengthen your argument. Therefore, I don't understand why you would consider my correcting the record -- especially when I am clear that this type of mischaracterization is not limited to a single group -- objectionable.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
My point is: when you, the moderator, weigh in against the troll/bigot-buster and not against the troll/bigot, you can be sure the troll/bigots think they just got a free pass.

Fair enough, but I think we are having two different conversations. I didn't weigh in against a bigot-buster. I weighed in regarding this statement:

"there are never DCUM threads about muslims or jews or anybody else."

That is a factually incorrect statement. I tried to make clear that this type of false statement is not limited to defenders of Catholics, but is common among members of any group that is subject to criticism on DCUM.

I am not taking a position in the Catholic/anti-Catholic debate. I am taking a position on the one topic on which I can claim some expertise: threads that have been posted on DCUM.

I am sure that you agree that false statements do not strengthen your argument. Therefore, I don't understand why you would consider my correcting the record -- especially when I am clear that this type of mischaracterization is not limited to a single group -- objectionable.

OK, then. But I'm pretty sure if you totted up the number of anti-Catholic posts, they would overwhelm the number of anti-Islam or anti-Judaism posts. Overwhelm.

But you're still missing my point. According to the rubric you've created above, you've challenged my "facts," but you haven't challenged any of bigots' "facts." But that doesn't even really matter. More important is that what you think you're doing is not necessarily what people perceive you, as moderator, to be doing. Your post comes off as a slap-down of me, and a free pass for the bigots, Regardless of what particular aspect of my post you think you're slapping down, the bigots out there are rubbing their hands, and the anti-bigots are thinking, "do I want to risk a slap-down, for any reason, from the moderator?"

And since you post that my so-called "false statements" don't strengthen my argument, I need to remind you that you posted incorrectly that I think *only* Catholics are victims of prejudice. I never wrote that.

[Anonymous]

13:59 again. I'm realizing there's no way I can persuade you that what I was trying to do, regardless of how I framed my arguments, had any merit. Worse, thanks to me this has turned into a discussion of when and where the moderator should choose to slap somebody down.

My job is to accept the slapdown and slink off with my tail between my legs, suitably reprimanded. So I'll slink off.

I just hope you love the posters you have left!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:11:31 again. Jeff, have you ever come on a thread to say "stop feeling persecuted as a black person" or "stop feeling persecuted as a jew"? Or is only the defenders of Catholics who get this treatment?

I'm not Jeff, but I've seen both.

I have never seen either. Honestly.

Another question for Jeff: why, on this thread at least, are you criticizing the people who call out the trollery/bigotry, and not the trolls/bigots themselves? How hard would it be for you to slap 19:04 back with "And how do you know your ancestor wasn't Attila the Hun?" Coming from you, that might have had an impact. Instead, you go after those who criticize 19:04 and her ilk, giving the impression that DCUM sanctions open season on Catholics (or name your group that is feeling persecuted).

Can you identify the posts where you provided the "slap back" to unreasonable people on your side of the issue? It would be hypocritical for you to expect something of one poster, even Jeff, if you don't do it yourself.

Sure, easy-peasy. I'm 9:08 who thanked that PP for the historical lesson, but pointed her many omissions and questioned her maturity. Jeff can verify this.

I think we agree, though, that Jeff's posts have greater weight than mine.

Uh, you slapped back someone who is on the OTHER side of the issue, not your own. I don't think you get the analogy between what you expect of Jeff and what you practice yourself.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:My job is to accept the slapdown and slink off with my tail between my legs, suitably reprimanded. So I'll slink off.

I still don't understand why you believe you were slapped down. I have no issue with your protesting what you perceive to be anti-Catholic statements. You seem to believe that a technical correction means that I oppose your entire argument. If someone posted that the Chinese government is inhumane in its treatment of Tibetans and that 2 plus 2 equals 5, would someone replying that 2 plus 2 actually equals 4 be accused of supporting China's oppression and criticized for not attacking China instead?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Former (now non-practicing) Catholic here. What I think escapes the notice (or perhaps understanding) of many on this board is that there is a great deal of emotional pain that goes along with leaving the Catholic Church for many of us. We are leaving it for all of the reasons discussed, but it was good to us when we were growing up. Maybe we just didn't know what was going on (for sure we didn't know about the child abuse!) but we believed. We thought we were doing right. The priests, bishops, ccardinals... They were the GOOD guys. We prayed to them and for them every Sunday in church. We helped the poor, and we're reminded to give of ourselves and continue to do that. In the stricter homes, we prayed often, and believed that as we followed Church law, so we're the leaders of our Church. To find out now, as adults, how wrong we were, how corrupt the GOOD guys are (and have been), how we'ce been lied to and duped, has shaken us badly. We are badly hurt in ways you can't begin to imagine. Please try not to be so flippant about it. Telling us to "get over it" is harsh. We will. We are. But it's easier said than done for many of us.

This nailed it for me. And this is why I think there is so much "catholic bashing" that PPs are referring to. The church is sort of imploding on itself, and it leaves a lot of us who were part of it very angry. I've known abuse victims, and as it turns out I've known perpetrators. You think I'm not going to come on here and rip the catholic church for its hypocrisy and selling us a bill of goods? And then to hear how they're treating the nuns who taught us in school and were part of our upbringing as second class citizens? THAT's why we bash the catholic church. Not for sport, but out of sheer incredulity and sometimes shame that we were ever involved in such an organization.
And the PP going off on how it's all just bashing for sport, if you were never involved in the catholic church, you simply cannot understand.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My job is to accept the slapdown and slink off with my tail between my legs, suitably reprimanded. So I'll slink off.

I still don't understand why you believe you were slapped down. I have no issue with your protesting what you perceive to be anti-Catholic statements. You seem to believe that a technical correction means that I oppose your entire argument. If someone posted that the Chinese government is inhumane in its treatment of Tibetans and that 2 plus 2 equals 5, would someone replying that 2 plus 2 actually equals 4 be accused of supporting China's oppression and criticized for not attacking China instead?

Do you sometimes feel like the recess lady, and everyone is pulling on your skirt hem to tell on each other?