Gifted vs Autism

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of the traits described in autism sound very similar to traits found in "gifted" students. How do you know if it's giftedness vs autism?

Gifted high achievers also have strong executive functioning skills, communication skills, can regulate their emotions. And can be a very strong team athlete too. The triple or quadruple threats.

Gifted 2E students, not so much or only for select hyper interests.

lol I guess you’ve never met a lot of truly gifted high achievers. You are describing very fortunate people but likely not very high IQ people.

Whatever you say, sure.

Definitely no such thing as a high IQ, high GPA, attractive, athletic student or person doing tough majors and careers to wild success.

They are “fortunate.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s never ‘giftedness’. That’s just denial

Phrased more accurately, gifted kids can also have autism, ADHD, dyslexia, dysgraphia, etc.

The mistake is in assuming giftedness is causing the problems OP describes because you don't want to see the neurodivergence. You only want to acknowledge the giftedness. This willful blindness does not help the child.

Similarly, not catching LDs or neurodivergence early enough can mask giftedness, and adults wrongly assume the child is not intelligent.

[Anonymous]

A few years old, but fhis book addresses your question: https://a.co/d/bi1BBAw

Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnoses of Gifted Children and Adult

[Anonymous]

OP, I don’t know what your real question is. You seem to be trying to convince the board of your DD’s giftedness. I can assure you, the lack of personal hygiene or ability to make or keep friends has nothing to do with being gifted. And if she is struggling with time management in MS, HS will be a nightmare. I would test and get her help ASAP.
But then you say she is a model student and teachers think you are nuts. So she has no EF issues in school? Just at home? And let me ask, who decided she needs an introduction to the quantum world now, her or you?
Just saying.
Also agree with other PPs. County gifted designation is not gifted. It’s normal around here. Gifted is college at age 12. Publishing a book at that age, on your own. Winning math Olympiads for college students. Not just reading things. Get her tested. Get her help.

[Anonymous]

OP, get with her dr and get a referral for a neuropysch. Find a place that takes your insurance. Get it done.

My dc was dx with ASD years before they were dx gifted (by a developmental pediatric pysch). It is what it is, I don't really worry about which dx is causing whatever issue. I just try to help them be the best them they can be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I don’t know what your real question is. You seem to be trying to convince the board of your DD’s giftedness. I can assure you, the lack of personal hygiene or ability to make or keep friends has nothing to do with being gifted. And if she is struggling with time management in MS, HS will be a nightmare. I would test and get her help ASAP.
But then you say she is a model student and teachers think you are nuts. So she has no EF issues in school? Just at home? And let me ask, who decided she needs an introduction to the quantum world now, her or you?
Just saying.
Also agree with other PPs. County gifted designation is not gifted. It’s normal around here. Gifted is college at age 12. Publishing a book at that age, on your own. Winning math Olympiads for college students. Not just reading things. Get her tested. Get her help.

All of this. I'd also add that while getting your daughter help, you should seek help yourself. If your daughter in fact gets diagnosed with ASD or ADHD, I don't think you would take it kindly. Go speak to a therapist about why that is and why you are so fixated on trying to label your kid as gifted.

[Anonymous]

I’m struggling to understand what “gifted” means in this context. Our DD is by all accounts very smart (1590 SAT, 4-5 years above grade level in math and reading, admitted to both humanities and STEM magnet programs, etc) but I’ve never considered her “gifted”. Just a smart, intellectually curious kid.

She also has an assortment of “stuff”. At a minimum ADHD, everything else is a little hard to tell if it is part of her ADHD package or if it is ASD and other learning disabilities.

Here is the thing, in some respects none of those labels really matter. Is she gifted or is she just smart? It really doesn’t matter because she is on an academic pathway that makes sense for her as an individual.

Does she have ADHD or ASD? I also am not entirely sure (we have done several neuropsych evals). But similarly in some respects it really doesn’t matter because she has therapeutic interventions, accommodations, and medications that meet her very specific needs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are many links between autism and high IQ - https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4927579/

That’s not to say you ignore the needs of a high IQ kid on the grounds that it is “just” giftedness. But I move in circles with extraordinarily people and they are definitely not neurotypical in general. Merely smart people - sure.

OP here. Thank you so much for sharing this article. There is so much here that I've often wondered/theorized about. His perspective of autism as uneven development of intelligence and also the genetic correlations between high intelligence and autism is really interesting.

[Anonymous]

OP here, I've read all the responses, and thanks to all who have taken the time to answer. I don't have time to respond to all, but I did want to clarify a few things. We are in PA, where they do testing to see if you should receive a gifted IEP. They use teacher evaluations and standard IQ tests. We have 2 children who are in the same program. It's really become clear the contrast between the two this fall, seeing that our younger one have the exact same classes and teachers, and yet seeing that one is sometimes able to finish homework almost entirely while at school, while the other took 3-5 hours.

Some of this is personality. Our younger one has always been a bit high-strung / high anxiety, impatient, a planner, a fast thinker, an organizer, always needing to get things done and out of the way, always NEEDING to know the plan, the schedule, for the day, for the week, for the month, and driven by external influences (incentives/consequences/competition). And our older one is more artistic/creative, a slow/deep thinker, a chronic procrastinator, a perfectionist, easily distracted, and seemingly immune to external influences. Also she receives higher grades overall.

I don't have anything against autism or adhd, and I've done quite a bit of research on both. I can tell you that the diagnostic criteria for both have really changed a LOT in the last 25 years, to include a much broader percentage of the public. I do think some of this has been financially driven, largely by pharmaceutical companies. I actually wrote a research paper in college about autism (30+ years ago) and I can tell you that the definition for autism even then, was VERY different than what it is today. And as these definitions change, the DSM criteria changes, it's abundantly clear that this is not really a black and white thing that the medical world fully understands.

And I will also note that the current Dept of Health director has publicly announced that they would be working with NIH to develop a database of those that have been diagnosed with autism so that they can be "studied." I think there is a significant privacy risk to receiving an autism diagnosis.

So really I'm trying to weigh all of these things to see what approach I should take as my child will be entering HS next year. And either things will get harder for her, OR once she has freedom to actually choose some of the classes she wants to take, she might actually thrive. Because when it comes to topics she is really interested in, she really excels. I simply don't know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here, I've read all the responses, and thanks to all who have taken the time to answer. I don't have time to respond to all, but I did want to clarify a few things. We are in PA, where they do testing to see if you should receive a gifted IEP. They use teacher evaluations and standard IQ tests. We have 2 children who are in the same program. It's really become clear the contrast between the two this fall, seeing that our younger one have the exact same classes and teachers, and yet seeing that one is sometimes able to finish homework almost entirely while at school, while the other took 3-5 hours.

Some of this is personality. Our younger one has always been a bit high-strung / high anxiety, impatient, a planner, a fast thinker, an organizer, always needing to get things done and out of the way, always NEEDING to know the plan, the schedule, for the day, for the week, for the month, and driven by external influences (incentives/consequences/competition). And our older one is more artistic/creative, a slow/deep thinker, a chronic procrastinator, a perfectionist, easily distracted, and seemingly immune to external influences. Also she receives higher grades overall.

I don't have anything against autism or adhd, and I've done quite a bit of research on both. I can tell you that the diagnostic criteria for both have really changed a LOT in the last 25 years, to include a much broader percentage of the public. I do think some of this has been financially driven, largely by pharmaceutical companies. I actually wrote a research paper in college about autism (30+ years ago) and I can tell you that the definition for autism even then, was VERY different than what it is today. And as these definitions change, the DSM criteria changes, it's abundantly clear that this is not really a black and white thing that the medical world fully understands.

And I will also note that the current Dept of Health director has publicly announced that they would be working with NIH to develop a database of those that have been diagnosed with autism so that they can be "studied." I think there is a significant privacy risk to receiving an autism diagnosis.

So really I'm trying to weigh all of these things to see what approach I should take as my child will be entering HS next year. And either things will get harder for her, OR once she has freedom to actually choose some of the classes she wants to take, she might actually thrive. Because when it comes to topics she is really interested in, she really excels. I simply don't know.

Okay but the freedom to take classes she likes is not going to make her brush her hair voluntarily, nor cause her social skills to suddenly catch up. Your daughter needs help. You seem determined to over-think this. I understand the privacy risk, I understand you don't want to put in the time and money for a neuropsych if it isn't really necessary, certainly. But the social skills and hygiene issues are NOT because she's gifted, and it's not something that will be fixed with a different academic schedule.

Lots of people are gifted academically and also have great social skills and hygiene. They just aren't as noticeable, they don't stick out, they actually blend in really well because of their social skills. Maybe that's why you think gifted=ASD symptoms.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here, I've read all the responses, and thanks to all who have taken the time to answer. I don't have time to respond to all, but I did want to clarify a few things. We are in PA, where they do testing to see if you should receive a gifted IEP. They use teacher evaluations and standard IQ tests. We have 2 children who are in the same program. It's really become clear the contrast between the two this fall, seeing that our younger one have the exact same classes and teachers, and yet seeing that one is sometimes able to finish homework almost entirely while at school, while the other took 3-5 hours.

Some of this is personality. Our younger one has always been a bit high-strung / high anxiety, impatient, a planner, a fast thinker, an organizer, always needing to get things done and out of the way, always NEEDING to know the plan, the schedule, for the day, for the week, for the month, and driven by external influences (incentives/consequences/competition). And our older one is more artistic/creative, a slow/deep thinker, a chronic procrastinator, a perfectionist, easily distracted, and seemingly immune to external influences. Also she receives higher grades overall.

I don't have anything against autism or adhd, and I've done quite a bit of research on both. I can tell you that the diagnostic criteria for both have really changed a LOT in the last 25 years, to include a much broader percentage of the public. I do think some of this has been financially driven, largely by pharmaceutical companies. I actually wrote a research paper in college about autism (30+ years ago) and I can tell you that the definition for autism even then, was VERY different than what it is today. And as these definitions change, the DSM criteria changes, it's abundantly clear that this is not really a black and white thing that the medical world fully understands.

And I will also note that the current Dept of Health director has publicly announced that they would be working with NIH to develop a database of those that have been diagnosed with autism so that they can be "studied." I think there is a significant privacy risk to receiving an autism diagnosis.

So really I'm trying to weigh all of these things to see what approach I should take as my child will be entering HS next year. And either things will get harder for her, OR once she has freedom to actually choose some of the classes she wants to take, she might actually thrive. Because when it comes to topics she is really interested in, she really excels. I simply don't know.

Okay but the freedom to take classes she likes is not going to make her brush her hair voluntarily, nor cause her social skills to suddenly catch up. Your daughter needs help. You seem determined to over-think this. I understand the privacy risk, I understand you don't want to put in the time and money for a neuropsych if it isn't really necessary, certainly. But the social skills and hygiene issues are NOT because she's gifted, and it's not something that will be fixed with a different academic schedule.

Lots of people are gifted academically and also have great social skills and hygiene. They just aren't as noticeable, they don't stick out, they actually blend in really well because of their social skills. Maybe that's why you think gifted=ASD symptoms.

Oh, amen. You said it better than I did. What's troubling is not so much the dawdling or extra time it's the grooming deficits and such. Look, my IQ tests at the 99.9 percentile. At MIT I met people who awed me with their genius. Some guys in the big lectures smelled of bo from lack of laundry or showers but nobody didn't comb their hair. And the stinky ones didn't get the best grades, lol. So it wasn't their geniusness.

The most obvious signs she's not just a junior absent minded professor are the lack of toothbrushing (it has consequences and a smart gurl knows that), not brushing hair for days, forgetting to eat (not in touch with body).

[Anonymous]

Google "venn diagram giffed autism adhd" and there is a helpful image about different and overlapping characteristics of these groups

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of the traits described in autism sound very similar to traits found in "gifted" students. How do you know if it's giftedness vs autism?

Gifted high achievers also have strong executive functioning skills, communication skills, can regulate their emotions. And can be a very strong team athlete too. The triple or quadruple threats.

Gifted 2E students, not so much or only for select hyper interests.

lol I guess you’ve never met a lot of truly gifted high achievers. You are describing very fortunate people but likely not very high IQ people.

Whatever you say, sure.

Definitely no such thing as a high IQ, high GPA, attractive, athletic student or person doing tough majors and careers to wild success.

They are “fortunate.”

“High IQ” is not gifted. Of course there are many people who are very successful who have those characteristics but they aren’t getting the Nobel Prizes or even named chairs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of the traits described in autism sound very similar to traits found in "gifted" students. How do you know if it's giftedness vs autism?

You can have both. You can also be an average person with Autism

+1. Twice-exceptional kids.

[Anonymous]

OP, my child was diagnosed with the type of autism most people say "Oh I never would have noticed, she seems fine" and the type that would not have been diagnosed 20 years ago. Although she has relatively low support needs there is zero question in my mind the diagnosis is necessary and important. I am scared about a lot of things Trump is doing but the so called autism list is not remotely at the top of my worries. My child needs support right now. I can't deny her that over some hypothetical nightmare scenario that is as of yet completely speculative.