Gifted vs Autism

[Anonymous]

What is this thread? Giftedness and autism are different. Some people have both. Some don’t.

People are who gifted and highly social sometimes don’t look gifted because they focus their energy on high EQ activities like organizing and leading groups of people.

The inward, logical thinking of autism lends itself to spending more time on academic activities and math, which can look like the “and talented” side of “gifted and talented”, or give giftedness more visibility.

[Anonymous]

Gifted neurotypical people typically do not neglect to brush their hair, take forever to complete assignments such that they have no time for more pleasurable activities, etc.
They may be lazy, procrastinate, or worry but the description of the child sounds neurodivergent regardless of IQ and intellectual attainment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s all labels. What problem or symptom do you see?

Social struggles, becoming more apparent as time goes on (now 8th grade). I've always had to support a lot with nurturing those friendships, but at this age, it falls on the kids more, and she struggles with those skills, or claims that she would rather spend time to herself or doesn't need friends. Maybe it's also that she is about 2 years behind physically/emotionally in maturity.

Lack of flexibility or wanting to try things. And this is not a problem, but it's just a trait- she still engages in many of the things she engaged in as a small child. Playing in sand, collecting found nature and mixing them together, observing a worm for a good 20 minutes, for example.

Lack of time awareness. 1 hour often feels like 5 minutes to her.

General slowness and lack of ability to focus on schoolwork. Homework that should take 50 minutes, quite often takes her 5 hours. But she always gets it all done, and pretty much receives perfect marks in all subjects. The only time she does not is when she forgets to turn something in.

I kept looking at the date and time stamp wondering if I had written this about my own dd (also 8th grade), except she is the type to race through assignments and finish first (with lots of careless mistakes) and THEN zone out. Also perfect grades in all subjects somehow. We are starting to experience a lot of meltdowns so I just reached out to her ped this morning about getting a referral to neuropsych.

[Anonymous]

Horses not zebras.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of the traits described in autism sound very similar to traits found in "gifted" students. How do you know if it's giftedness vs autism?

You can have both. You can also be an average person with Autism

A simpler of way of asking my question would be - can someone who is gifted and excels in school, ALSO be autistic? If yes, where exactly is that line?

There isn't a line! It's whether the person meets the DSM criteria for ASD. Basically poor social skills and repetitive behaviors. That's it. There's nothing about being gifted or academics or school at all. Sometimes gifted people also have ASD, sometimes they don't.

Talking about really profoundly gifted people, like calculus in 4th grade, music prodigies, speak six languages, real off the charts outliers does I think tend to overlap with ASD but also with having a really atypical childhood experience and maybe some social things just got missed. But most kids aren't that. If you're talking about a kid who is 2-3 years ahead in reading and math, that's just moderately gifted and on this board it isn't unusual.

You sound like you are trying to persuade yourself that your child is merely gifted but on some level you know there is more going on.

I'm just trying to figure out if we should intervene at this point, BEFORE things start getting harder for her at school.

I DO think she is profoundly gifted in some areas. She can sit and read a medical textbook and pretty much remember about 95% of what she's read. Her reading level is about 4-5years ahead. Her ELA teachers have struggled with providing her age-appropriate reading that matches her abilities.

You are a bit unhinged. That’s not gifted. She has an above-average working memory. Many kids can’t read and remember. It’s understanding and communicating/discussing what you’ve read.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of the traits described in autism sound very similar to traits found in "gifted" students. How do you know if it's giftedness vs autism?

You can have both. You can also be an average person with Autism

A simpler of way of asking my question would be - can someone who is gifted and excels in school, ALSO be autistic? If yes, where exactly is that line?

There isn't a line! It's whether the person meets the DSM criteria for ASD. Basically poor social skills and repetitive behaviors. That's it. There's nothing about being gifted or academics or school at all. Sometimes gifted people also have ASD, sometimes they don't.

Talking about really profoundly gifted people, like calculus in 4th grade, music prodigies, speak six languages, real off the charts outliers does I think tend to overlap with ASD but also with having a really atypical childhood experience and maybe some social things just got missed. But most kids aren't that. If you're talking about a kid who is 2-3 years ahead in reading and math, that's just moderately gifted and on this board it isn't unusual.

You sound like you are trying to persuade yourself that your child is merely gifted but on some level you know there is more going on.

I'm just trying to figure out if we should intervene at this point, BEFORE things start getting harder for her at school.

I DO think she is profoundly gifted in some areas. She can sit and read a medical textbook and pretty much remember about 95% of what she's read. Her reading level is about 4-5years ahead. Her ELA teachers have struggled with providing her age-appropriate reading that matches her abilities.

You are a bit unhinged. That’s not gifted. She has an above-average working memory. Many kids can’t read and remember. It’s understanding and communicating/discussing what you’ve read.

Not sure what you mean by unhinged. Are you saying she can't understand or able to communicate and talk about what she's read? She absolutely can, and can explain it better than most teachers I've had. Also, I don't think they would have placed her in a Gifted IEP if she was not gifted.

[Anonymous]

OP here. I don't know what to think about the hygiene stuff. It is partly a sensory thing - her hating the feeling of brushing her hair, her teeth, and having wet hair, and partly she hates stopping what she is doing to do something totally mundane and boring, and partly that she doesn't see the point of brushing hair. She does brush her teeth and shower regularly even though she may complain incessantly about it or procrastinate.

As for the slowness with homework - that's been harder to figure out. When it comes to math, it's the rote work of following the same steps. Nothing is ever automatic for her, she overthinks it, then gets lost, and then overcomplicates it, and then sometimes just gets stuck on really simple stuff. When it comes to writing, it's total writer's block and procrastination. When it comes to any project, it's a combination of procrastination, lack of commitment to a specific direction, and then lack of planning, and then always attempting to overdeliver - as in spending 20 hours on a project where the expectation was to spend just 5 hours on it. She studies and tests really well, but often needs extra time for tests. When I sit next to her, and keep her on track, she can work faster. But the distractions come frequently, and I need to redirect her a lot. She gets distracted by a bug, by a pile of crumbs, by a piece of paper. As I describe it, this all sounds more like adhd.

Generally though, a lot of it is her perfectionism. She refuses to settle for a 95, she feels like she absolutely must get the 100. She has low confidence and self esteem, and thinks her classmates are all smarter than her, because things seem to come more easily for them.

As for the social stuff - a lot of it is that she is naturally an extreme introvert and does not feel the need to socialize, and finds socializing draining. But it's also like she doesn't know how to do the things that most people for take for granted. Like how to enter/join a conversation, carry on a conversation, how to make small talk, how to make plans with friends, how to respond to a myriad of things that people might say in a conversation. I'm sure a lot of this is due to lack of interest, practice, and exposure due to her avoidance of social situations. She has a small group of friends, but she makes minimal effort to spend time with them and I feel like they are growing apart and she has no interest in making new ones.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A neuropsych.

Also, I disagree with the stereotype that gifted kids lack empathy as a result of the brilliance. My smartest kid is also my most empathetic/intuitive when it comes to emotions and that’s not uncommon.

Neuropsych evals are expensive. At what point would you consider one for a child that has been identified as gifted, if at all?

NP. You consider a neuropsych when the child is encountering problems that are affecting their daily life and may be helped by a diagnosis (through additional information, medication or behavioral therapies), and when there are potential conflating issues that make diagnosing by a pediatrician difficult.

You say your child takes 5 hours to do a 50 minute task. That sounds concerning imo. Your child's workload is going to increase in high school, as another poster pointed out. It's also going to increase in college, grad school, and in their professional life. Personally, I would want to know what is going on here and if there is anything that can be done to help the child.

From your description, it sounds like your child could have ADHD. Alternatively, it could be that your daughter has a high IQ and slow processing speed. Some of what you mention sounds like a neurotypical child experiencing depression. A neurospych would better be able to tease out the issue, and they would do an IQ test so the neuropsychologist would be aware during testing that your child is gifted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A neuropsych.

Also, I disagree with the stereotype that gifted kids lack empathy as a result of the brilliance. My smartest kid is also my most empathetic/intuitive when it comes to emotions and that’s not uncommon.

Neuropsych evals are expensive. At what point would you consider one for a child that has been identified as gifted, if at all?

NP. You consider a neuropsych when the child is encountering problems that are affecting their daily life and may be helped by a diagnosis (through additional information, medication or behavioral therapies), and when there are potential conflating issues that make diagnosing by a pediatrician difficult.

You say your child takes 5 hours to do a 50 minute task. That sounds concerning imo. Your child's workload is going to increase in high school, as another poster pointed out. It's also going to increase in college, grad school, and in their professional life. Personally, I would want to know what is going on here and if there is anything that can be done to help the child.

From your description, it sounds like your child could have ADHD. Alternatively, it could be that your daughter has a high IQ and slow processing speed. Some of what you mention sounds like a neurotypical child experiencing depression. A neurospych would better be able to tease out the issue, and they would do an IQ test so the neuropsychologist would be aware during testing that your child is gifted.

She has already taken an IQ test to qualify for her gifted IEP. She's identified as gifted. I suspected slow processing speed also, but her processing speed is still above average. But compared to other areas, this is the area where she receives the lowest marks.

I don't think she is experiencing depression.

I'm concerned about her slowness too. Something will have to change in HS - either her perfectionism, or maybe choosing not to do the most advanced classes, or some kind of intervention to help her be more efficient with her time.

I am different than her - I don't have her memory or her ability to read very dense texts and I was not as gifted. But like her, I was/am slow, struggled with perfectionism, and was disorganized. I also think she shares my perceptiveness and intuition about people, which is oddly paired with a lack of social skills, and sometimes leads to anxiety when people's words and behaviors do not match up with my perception of them. But I ultimately went into a creative field which was less challenging, and abandoned any academic pursuits. I probably have adhd. I have eventually learned enough social skills to pass for someone who looks like they have no issues with socializing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I don't know what to think about the hygiene stuff. It is partly a sensory thing - her hating the feeling of brushing her hair, her teeth, and having wet hair, and partly she hates stopping what she is doing to do something totally mundane and boring, and partly that she doesn't see the point of brushing hair. She does brush her teeth and shower regularly even though she may complain incessantly about it or procrastinate.

As for the slowness with homework - that's been harder to figure out. When it comes to math, it's the rote work of following the same steps. Nothing is ever automatic for her, she overthinks it, then gets lost, and then overcomplicates it, and then sometimes just gets stuck on really simple stuff. When it comes to writing, it's total writer's block and procrastination. When it comes to any project, it's a combination of procrastination, lack of commitment to a specific direction, and then lack of planning, and then always attempting to overdeliver - as in spending 20 hours on a project where the expectation was to spend just 5 hours on it. She studies and tests really well, but often needs extra time for tests. When I sit next to her, and keep her on track, she can work faster. But the distractions come frequently, and I need to redirect her a lot. She gets distracted by a bug, by a pile of crumbs, by a piece of paper. As I describe it, this all sounds more like adhd.

Generally though, a lot of it is her perfectionism. She refuses to settle for a 95, she feels like she absolutely must get the 100. She has low confidence and self esteem, and thinks her classmates are all smarter than her, because things seem to come more easily for them.

As for the social stuff - a lot of it is that she is naturally an extreme introvert and does not feel the need to socialize, and finds socializing draining. But it's also like she doesn't know how to do the things that most people for take for granted. Like how to enter/join a conversation, carry on a conversation, how to make small talk, how to make plans with friends, how to respond to a myriad of things that people might say in a conversation. I'm sure a lot of this is due to lack of interest, practice, and exposure due to her avoidance of social situations. She has a small group of friends, but she makes minimal effort to spend time with them and I feel like they are growing apart and she has no interest in making new ones.

I would definitely pursue an evaluation, ideally with an autism expert. Check out CAAT and Stixrud. Having a diagnosis can be really helpful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A neuropsych.

Also, I disagree with the stereotype that gifted kids lack empathy as a result of the brilliance. My smartest kid is also my most empathetic/intuitive when it comes to emotions and that’s not uncommon.

Are you saying autistic kids lack empathy? They do not.

[Anonymous]

Again, you sound you hinged. Reread what you type.

Stop pressuring your kid. Sitting next to her and she does better? You need to take a breath.

[Anonymous]

Well, what you're describing could be a combination of ADHD, poor executive functioning, sensory issues, anxiety, immaturity, and under-developed social skills. Those kinds of things can definitely add up to an autism-like presentation. Which is why you get the evaluation! But there is no "this looks like autism but is just giftedness". That's not a thing. Lots of gifted kids don't struggle with the things your daughter is struggling with. At least not at the level of giftedness that you describe.

She's struggling now. You're telling us she spends way too long on schoolwork and may soon lose friends and you know it can't continue. She needs your help now. And it seems like you're afraid it'll be autism so you're trying to avoid it. Lots of us here have kids on the spectrum and it's okay! It may come as a relief to her. Try to be at peace with it being whatever it ends up being.

[Anonymous]

You need to pay for an evaluation. She is struggling on many levels — and your lack of understanding regarding these issues at thus stage in your parenting journey suggests you will benefit from a privately hired evaluator walking you through it.

[Anonymous]

OP here. It looks like there are different types of neuropsychological evaluations. Which should I consider?

I'm still undecided. I think if any of her teachers knew I was even considering getting her tested, they would think I was nuts. She's a model student. In 3rd grade, when I brought up the possibility of some issues she might have to her teacher, he also thought I was nuts.