Gifted vs Autism

[Anonymous]

To the OP, I’m an essay consultant who just had an aha moment and decided to come to this board to ask a question about a student I am helping.

I saw your thread before I posted and your description of you daughter sounds exactly like the kid I am helping — except we meet over Zoom so I’m not sure about hygiene.

This boy is a high school senior and scored a 1550 first attempt on his SAT. He is an only child who does not have many ECs. I’ve been wondering what he does after he gets home and still have not figured it out. The other night his parents told me he was up from 10:30 pm until 2 am working on essays. I saw fewer than 20 words changed in his drafts. When I spoke to him, he said he had spent 90 minutes on a snack and the rest on making minor edits to his essays. So he was kind of honest — maybe 100 % honest. Then his dad told me kid has always taken a long time to write essays. They’re telling me now? This kid should have started essay work at the start of summer. I’m wondering if he is twice-exceptional too! Either that or he is working on something else that they don’t want me to know about because I asked them to ensure he stayed away from that project.

I have noticed his complete lack of executive function skills. I know an academically gifted student and while she might stand out in a room full of athletes or something, she has great EF skills. She wants to be with people and she puts in effort into her friendships. Like your other child, she is quick in everything she does. This student is sooooo slow.

All this to say, please get your kid tested for anything and everything. This is your chance to prevent her from becoming like my student. What is the point if getting a 1550 if he can’t even follow a consultant’s advice to get his apps ready? I’m worried about how he will handle college. Get your kid the help she needs. And thanks for making things click for me! Good luck.,

[Anonymous]

Such amazing gifted kids, their future is paved with gold and fame!

[Anonymous]

Giftedness is a label that means different things to different people. Our developmental pediatrician and many doctors use it based on my kids testing but she’s a very very smart but not Nobel prize level kid so some people here might disagree with that characterization. Who knows, who cares.

Your child is struggling. 5 hours a night on homework alone should be a huge red flag. My child has an ADHD diagnosis, is under medicated due to an unrelated condition that means we can’t give her stimulants and never spends more than an hour on homework alone should. If she did I would take additional action. That’s not ok for any kid, let alone a kid struggling in the other ways you describe. At a bare minimum talk to your pediatrician about doing the ADHD and depression screenings. If those don’t lead to a path that helps your daughter you have to do more. Sitting around wondering if this is giftedness (it’s definitely not JUST giftedness, my kid uses her smarts as a workaround for her lack of social gifts, I see her analyzing a situation and logging data on how to jump in, probably because I do it too) is honestly wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Giftedness is a label that means different things to different people. Our developmental pediatrician and many doctors use it based on my kids testing but she’s a very very smart but not Nobel prize level kid so some people here might disagree with that characterization. Who knows, who cares.

Your child is struggling. 5 hours a night on homework alone should be a huge red flag. My child has an ADHD diagnosis, is under medicated due to an unrelated condition that means we can’t give her stimulants and never spends more than an hour on homework alone should. If she did I would take additional action. That’s not ok for any kid, let alone a kid struggling in the other ways you describe. At a bare minimum talk to your pediatrician about doing the ADHD and depression screenings. If those don’t lead to a path that helps your daughter you have to do more. Sitting around wondering if this is giftedness (it’s definitely not JUST giftedness, my kid uses her smarts as a workaround for her lack of social gifts, I see her analyzing a situation and logging data on how to jump in, probably because I do it too) is honestly wrong.

Me again- my husband is one of those smart kids who didn’t get diagnosed when we were growing up. He always got by but there were so many all nighters and he was just unhappy a lot in a way I don’t think he would have been if he’d gotten some executive function help. I am his executive function coach now, basically, but he still ends up working until 2 in the morning sometimes. Your window to make your kid get help is not that long honestly. I would do it now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Some of the traits described in autism sound very similar to traits found in "gifted" students. How do you know if it's giftedness vs autism?

Many gifted kids are very socially attuned because their giftedness naturally makes them very observant so they’re able to read people and work a situation to their advantage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of the traits described in autism sound very similar to traits found in "gifted" students. How do you know if it's giftedness vs autism?

Many gifted kids are very socially attuned because their giftedness naturally makes them very observant so they’re able to read people and work a situation to their advantage.

I meant to add that these kids are often the full package: class president and valedictorian types. There are very smart people who struggle socially, but I think that stands out so much because there is such a big contrast between social and intellectual ability. I wouldn’t say that being gifted inherently means that someone will struggle socially.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s all labels. What problem or symptom do you see?

Social struggles, becoming more apparent as time goes on (now 8th grade). I've always had to support a lot with nurturing those friendships, but at this age, it falls on the kids more, and she struggles with those skills, or claims that she would rather spend time to herself or doesn't need friends. Maybe it's also that she is about 2 years behind physically/emotionally in maturity.

Lack of flexibility or wanting to try things. And this is not a problem, but it's just a trait- she still engages in many of the things she engaged in as a small child. Playing in sand, collecting found nature and mixing them together, observing a worm for a good 20 minutes, for example.

Lack of time awareness. 1 hour often feels like 5 minutes to her.

General slowness and lack of ability to focus on schoolwork. Homework that should take 50 minutes, quite often takes her 5 hours. But she always gets it all done, and pretty much receives perfect marks in all subjects. The only time she does not is when she forgets to turn something in.

If this were my child then based on this description I would get a neuropsych. You want her to be able to live independently, get and maintain a job, and maintain at least a few close relationships. Giftedness is beside the point if she can’t get through college and/or maintain some type of job. The older I get the more I see that executive function skills are at the heart of everything, especially if you are a girl/woman.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A neuropsych.

Also, I disagree with the stereotype that gifted kids lack empathy as a result of the brilliance. My smartest kid is also my most empathetic/intuitive when it comes to emotions and that’s not uncommon.

Are you saying autistic kids lack empathy? They do not.

Yeah, I haven't read this entire thread but was hoping someone would call out this comment. Thank you for doing so.

My gifted AuDHD kid (2e) is one of the most empathetic souls I have ever met. Does she express it in a typical way? Not always. Sometimes she is overwhelmed with empathy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of the traits described in autism sound very similar to traits found in "gifted" students. How do you know if it's giftedness vs autism?

Many gifted kids are very socially attuned because their giftedness naturally makes them very observant so they’re able to read people and work a situation to their advantage.

I meant to add that these kids are often the full package: class president and valedictorian types. There are very smart people who struggle socially, but I think that stands out so much because there is such a big contrast between social and intellectual ability. I wouldn’t say that being gifted inherently means that someone will struggle socially.

You're likely describing above average, not gifted.

[Anonymous]

I had an acquaintance in college (HYP) who had great social skills. Everyone liked her. She played rec hockey and was just a fun person. At graduation I saw her with the Masters degree students, and there was a bio of her in the school newspaper because she was graduating with a MA as well as a BA and-- she was only 19 years old! I was completely stunned, I had no idea! That is what a gifted person with great social skills can be like. They don't necessarily stick out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A lot of red flags for autism.
I don’t see the gifted part. Only some splinter skills that won’t help her in the long run since her challenges appear to be more prominent than her skills.

+a million. As a parent of a kid with autism, I would be shocked if OP’s kid is not diagnosed with level 1 autism. Once you understand the condition, there is no way you wouldn’t see the myriad of red flags.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of the traits described in autism sound very similar to traits found in "gifted" students. How do you know if it's giftedness vs autism?

Many gifted kids are very socially attuned because their giftedness naturally makes them very observant so they’re able to read people and work a situation to their advantage.

I meant to add that these kids are often the full package: class president and valedictorian types. There are very smart people who struggle socially, but I think that stands out so much because there is such a big contrast between social and intellectual ability. I wouldn’t say that being gifted inherently means that someone will struggle socially.

You're likely describing above average, not gifted.

Gifted does not mean that a child looks at salamanders for an hour, spends 5 hours on homework that would take a child of average intelligence 20% of the time to complete, and needs their mother to maintain their friendships in 8th grade. My husband is gifted as in genius level intelligence, artistically brilliant, and also incredibly savvy socially. He comes from a family of incredibly gifted people - like Manhattan Project scientists, famous authors and artists, and fed chair equivalent economists.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here, I've read all the responses, and thanks to all who have taken the time to answer. I don't have time to respond to all, but I did want to clarify a few things. We are in PA, where they do testing to see if you should receive a gifted IEP. They use teacher evaluations and standard IQ tests. We have 2 children who are in the same program. It's really become clear the contrast between the two this fall, seeing that our younger one have the exact same classes and teachers, and yet seeing that one is sometimes able to finish homework almost entirely while at school, while the other took 3-5 hours.

Some of this is personality. Our younger one has always been a bit high-strung / high anxiety, impatient, a planner, a fast thinker, an organizer, always needing to get things done and out of the way, always NEEDING to know the plan, the schedule, for the day, for the week, for the month, and driven by external influences (incentives/consequences/competition). And our older one is more artistic/creative, a slow/deep thinker, a chronic procrastinator, a perfectionist, easily distracted, and seemingly immune to external influences. Also she receives higher grades overall.

I don't have anything against autism or adhd, and I've done quite a bit of research on both. I can tell you that the diagnostic criteria for both have really changed a LOT in the last 25 years, to include a much broader percentage of the public. I do think some of this has been financially driven, largely by pharmaceutical companies. I actually wrote a research paper in college about autism (30+ years ago) and I can tell you that the definition for autism even then, was VERY different than what it is today. And as these definitions change, the DSM criteria changes, it's abundantly clear that this is not really a black and white thing that the medical world fully understands.

And I will also note that the current Dept of Health director has publicly announced that they would be working with NIH to develop a database of those that have been diagnosed with autism so that they can be "studied." I think there is a significant privacy risk to receiving an autism diagnosis.

So really I'm trying to weigh all of these things to see what approach I should take as my child will be entering HS next year. And either things will get harder for her, OR once she has freedom to actually choose some of the classes she wants to take, she might actually thrive. Because when it comes to topics she is really interested in, she really excels. I simply don't know.

Okay but the freedom to take classes she likes is not going to make her brush her hair voluntarily, nor cause her social skills to suddenly catch up. Your daughter needs help. You seem determined to over-think this. I understand the privacy risk, I understand you don't want to put in the time and money for a neuropsych if it isn't really necessary, certainly. But the social skills and hygiene issues are NOT because she's gifted, and it's not something that will be fixed with a different academic schedule.

Lots of people are gifted academically and also have great social skills and hygiene. They just aren't as noticeable, they don't stick out, they actually blend in really well because of their social skills. Maybe that's why you think gifted=ASD symptoms.

This. The OP seems convinced that anyone who is socially adept and intelligent is just above average and that truly gifted people run around in a John Nash like psychosis. It’s not true, OP. For those of us who went to HYPs or work in tech or finance and see people like this everyday I can say that social intelligence is directly connected to EF capacity. People who are very gifted and socially intelligent seem like they are just above average because they don’t spend hours talking about quantum physics at parties. That’s how people like this become phenomenally successful. They are brilliant and know how to relate, how to send an email, how to diplomatically ask questions, how to maintain hygiene, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of the traits described in autism sound very similar to traits found in "gifted" students. How do you know if it's giftedness vs autism?

Many gifted kids are very socially attuned because their giftedness naturally makes them very observant so they’re able to read people and work a situation to their advantage.

I meant to add that these kids are often the full package: class president and valedictorian types. There are very smart people who struggle socially, but I think that stands out so much because there is such a big contrast between social and intellectual ability. I wouldn’t say that being gifted inherently means that someone will struggle socially.

You're likely describing above average, not gifted.

Gifted does not mean that a child looks at salamanders for an hour, spends 5 hours on homework that would take a child of average intelligence 20% of the time to complete, and needs their mother to maintain their friendships in 8th grade. My husband is gifted as in genius level intelligence, artistically brilliant, and also incredibly savvy socially. He comes from a family of incredibly gifted people - like Manhattan Project scientists, famous authors and artists, and fed chair equivalent economists.

Not sure why both can't be true. You can have a gifted, socially capable individual and an above average socially gifted individual. There will just be more of the latter than the former, statistically speaking.

And it's ok to be above average, too.