Elder attorney told family that memory care is a scam

[Anonymous]

^^so Medicaid won’t for a mobile, healthy person with dementia to reside in a nursing home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
well, what is this attorney offering as an alternative for people with dementia? I mean, my mother is bored in memory care, but she is well taken care of and safe. The alternatives are her living with us and me quitting my job (because she cannot be alone and cannot just chill even for 30 minutes,) AND getting care or f/t care at home which is more expensive. She was kicked out of assisted living for dementia behaviors. I suppose I could just put her in an apartment and allow her to die through starvation; poisoning; getting lost, burning down the apartment....? This is someone who is unable to use a phone, much less care for herself.


The alternative proposed was a traditional Medicaid funded nursing home, but at least the one in the town nearby has said they can’t provide safe care due to mobility/roaming. They don’t have the safety measures memory facilities have, nor the staff to deal with the level of challenges parent has.j

As far as I know, nursing homes require medical needs and will not take someone who is at a certain level of dementia because they are liable if something goes wrong. Four need to use Medicaid, find a memory care place that will eventually take Medicaid.

For everyone saying that you will kill yourself when this happens, you still need to figure out long term care. One of the most common signs in early dementia (when you could still have the capacity to make a decision to end your life) is denial. Secondly, having been through this with my mother, who always insisted that I should just shoot her etc, the person she is now is not who she was, but she still is a person. She recognizes me, enjoys an ice cream sundae, occasionally dances to the oldies with her walker, snuggles with my dog when we come visit. She is also mostly incontinent, unable to remember her personal history, use a phone or focus on anything like reading, despite being someone who is highly educated and taught college history, spoke Italian French Spanish and read Latin and Greek. She is not who she was but she is a person who still feels things. I know when we get to the point I where she can’t speak or walk ill wish her suffering to end but even if she hadn’t capacity to make a decision about ending her life now, I don’t think she would.

Finally, memory care can be a horrible warehouse but it doesn’t have to be. We went from disappointing corporate chain that was part of larger facility to a small intimate non profit where all they do is memory care and my moms baseline has actually improved—she is calmer, more content and well cared for.

Where did you find a non profit that does this? My father has no savings and is in earlier stages of dementia. Some days are bad and he wonders off from our home. He lives with us and has started being pretty mean to my autistic son so we want to get him out. I am scared of taking on this financial obligation, so would love to find a non profit.

A nonprofit isn’t necessarily going to be less expensive than a for profit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP we had a similar experience with my parents' financial planner. Guy spent 30 minutes telling my mom that memory care was a scam and unreliable but then he didn't even offer an alternate suggestion. Just told her to talk to an elder care attorney to figure out Medicaid eligibility. And I'd bet a million dollars that he gets kick backs from the attorney for references.

They're all a bunch of slime balls who don't understand the reality of elder care. It's all just numbers on a screen. When I previously brought up that my parents don't have enough money to cover extensive memory care or skilled nursing (my grandma's side of the family all had dementia), he brushed it off saying "most people don't live long once they reach that stage." Which may be true, but hoping to die quickly is not what I want them to base their financial decisions on.

It’s not the lawyer’s fault that you asked for advice outside his scope and got referred to a more specialized practitioner. The rules on referral fees typically require them to track actual value added. I know a lot of attorneys and I don’t know anybody who pays just for referral.

I think the marketing term “memory care” is one of the most cynical things ever devised by the caretaking sales industry. Nobody is getting any “care” for their “memory.” They’re getting a more specialized form of custodial care adapted to the unique challenges of persons with dementia. I don’t think the idea of specialized, tailored care is a scam, but I’m not sure that a “memory care” unit is the only place to find it.

If you’re concerned about needing help with care costs, the best person to consult is an experienced attorney affiliated with the National Academy of Elder Law Attorneys. Medicaid rules are complex, subject to change, and present catastrophic traps for the unwary. This is not a place for crowdsourcing, amateur night or non-expert advice.

I don’t understand your beef with the term “memory care.” You actually described what it is perfectly, and your description is not at odds with the term. None of these facilities claim to improve memory; they just provide care for memory-impaired people. And yes, memory care is the best place for people with dementia who need constant supervision. Perhaps not if they are bed-bound, but if they are mobile and otherwise healthy, they must have a locked unit.

My problem with the marketing term is that I think it can suggest to at least some gullible consumers that the particular facility can or will reverse decline and get the person back to independent living when that is never going to happen. They are not treating or caring for memory but for the loss of it and other mental functions. Yes, some patients do better for a time when carefully monitored, supported and on a carefully managed medication program. But I think it is selling false hope to call that “memory” care when what is being treated is dementia.

[Anonymous]

This country's systems are so messed up it is criminal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^^so Medicaid won’t for a mobile, healthy person with dementia to reside in a nursing home.

As it turns out, I believe most of the memory care facilities won’t be able to accommodate some of his medical needs, so we may end up at a “regular” LTD/SNF that has “dementia” care. I don’t think we realized his medical needs exceeded that which most memory care facilities provide.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP we had a similar experience with my parents' financial planner. Guy spent 30 minutes telling my mom that memory care was a scam and unreliable but then he didn't even offer an alternate suggestion. Just told her to talk to an elder care attorney to figure out Medicaid eligibility. And I'd bet a million dollars that he gets kick backs from the attorney for references.

They're all a bunch of slime balls who don't understand the reality of elder care. It's all just numbers on a screen. When I previously brought up that my parents don't have enough money to cover extensive memory care or skilled nursing (my grandma's side of the family all had dementia), he brushed it off saying "most people don't live long once they reach that stage." Which may be true, but hoping to die quickly is not what I want them to base their financial decisions on.

It’s not the lawyer’s fault that you asked for advice outside his scope and got referred to a more specialized practitioner. The rules on referral fees typically require them to track actual value added. I know a lot of attorneys and I don’t know anybody who pays just for referral.

I think the marketing term “memory care” is one of the most cynical things ever devised by the caretaking sales industry. Nobody is getting any “care” for their “memory.” They’re getting a more specialized form of custodial care adapted to the unique challenges of persons with dementia. I don’t think the idea of specialized, tailored care is a scam, but I’m not sure that a “memory care” unit is the only place to find it.

If you’re concerned about needing help with care costs, the best person to consult is an experienced attorney affiliated with the National Academy of Elder Law Attorneys. Medicaid rules are complex, subject to change, and present catastrophic traps for the unwary. This is not a place for crowdsourcing, amateur night or non-expert advice.

I don’t understand your beef with the term “memory care.” You actually described what it is perfectly, and your description is not at odds with the term. None of these facilities claim to improve memory; they just provide care for memory-impaired people. And yes, memory care is the best place for people with dementia who need constant supervision. Perhaps not if they are bed-bound, but if they are mobile and otherwise healthy, they must have a locked unit.

My problem with the marketing term is that I think it can suggest to at least some gullible consumers that the particular facility can or will reverse decline and get the person back to independent living when that is never going to happen. They are not treating or caring for memory but for the loss of it and other mental functions. Yes, some patients do better for a time when carefully monitored, supported and on a carefully managed medication program. But I think it is selling false hope to call that “memory” care when what is being treated is dementia.

I don’t think anyone believes memory care will “treat” or improve one’s condition, but I would hope they would be better equipped to handle things like aggression and agitation, maybe even to the point of preventing it in some situations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Memory care is like prison. You should try to avoid putting your parent into it.

What do you suppose is a better alternative? Letting people with no insight or awareness of safety live on their own?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:


As far as I know, nursing homes require medical needs and will not take someone who is at a certain level of dementia because they are liable if something goes wrong. Four need to use Medicaid, find a memory care place that will eventually take Medicaid.

For everyone saying that you will kill yourself when this happens, you still need to figure out long term care. One of the most common signs in early dementia (when you could still have the capacity to make a decision to end your life) is denial. Secondly, having been through this with my mother, who always insisted that I should just shoot her etc, the person she is now is not who she was, but she still is a person. She recognizes me, enjoys an ice cream sundae, occasionally dances to the oldies with her walker, snuggles with my dog when we come visit. She is also mostly incontinent, unable to remember her personal history, use a phone or focus on anything like reading, despite being someone who is highly educated and taught college history, spoke Italian French Spanish and read Latin and Greek. She is not who she was but she is a person who still feels things. I know when we get to the point I where she can’t speak or walk ill wish her suffering to end but even if she hadn’t capacity to make a decision about ending her life now, I don’t think she would.

Finally, memory care can be a horrible warehouse but it doesn’t have to be. We went from disappointing corporate chain that was part of larger facility to a small intimate non profit where all they do is memory care and my moms baseline has actually improved—she is calmer, more content and well cared for.


Where did you find a non profit that does this? My father has no savings and is in earlier stages of dementia. Some days are bad and he wonders off from our home. He lives with us and has started being pretty mean to my autistic son so we want to get him out. I am scared of taking on this financial obligation, so would love to find a non profit.

Pp here. I should clarify that in this case I prefer the no. Profit because I think they put more back into staffing and training. It is actually more expensive than the for profit my mom was at before but much better. We pay about 11k/month and they do not accept Medicaid so although it may be no profit it still costs us dearly. However my experience is that the. Corporate chains keep getting new management, buy outs etc. we were at one place (assisted living for most of it and memory care for a bit) and from July 22-April 25 they had three executive directors, about 6 memory care directors and any number of other shifts. Another place we had been eyeing because it is so close to us has changed corporate ownership 3x in as many years each change of ownership is an entirely neenste of staff, procedures, financials etc.

[Anonymous]

You dont need an attorney or a trust. Tour multiple facilities, some are better than others.

For those who say it's a prison or to avoid it, they likely didn't have family who needed that environment. It got to a point where it was unsafe for my dad to be at home. We hired 24/7 care so that someone was awake even when he was asleep. Because he had instances of waking up at night and doing something dangerous. Knives and anything sharp had to be locked up. The house had to be childproofed so he couldn't turn on the stove or oven. But then his dementia got to the point that he would have angry outbursts. Thankfully, he never hurt my mom. But having worked with people with dementia, I know full well the possibility is there. I've been hurt by them. It was a hard decision but sometimes these "prisons" are absolutely the safest options.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You dont need an attorney or a trust. Tour multiple facilities, some are better than others.

For those who say it's a prison or to avoid it, they likely didn't have family who needed that environment. It got to a point where it was unsafe for my dad to be at home. We hired 24/7 care so that someone was awake even when he was asleep. Because he had instances of waking up at night and doing something dangerous. Knives and anything sharp had to be locked up. The house had to be childproofed so he couldn't turn on the stove or oven. But then his dementia got to the point that he would have angry outbursts. Thankfully, he never hurt my mom. But having worked with people with dementia, I know full well the possibility is there. I've been hurt by them. It was a hard decision but sometimes these "prisons" are absolutely the safest options.

+1

Had a relative who 8+ years ago, requested to go to a facility, as their memory started to decline. They didn't feel safe at home. Even once the doctors got the medications adjusted, the relative was happier in the facility, as they themselves didnt' worry about harming themselves accidentally (beginning stages of Alzheimers ) So for them, they felt great relief knowing they were safely "locked" in a facility, with activities to do, and didnt' have to worry about wandering off, etc. I'd argue that getting someone into a facility sooner in the progression of the illness is much better. And having access to engaging activities and interactions with others is huge for "slowing the progress" as much as you can. Whereas sitting at home, with one or two family members and caregivers is not the same at all.