Miyares is right about discrimination

[Anonymous]

I also think kids were intimidated from attending if they were such a small minority. Having each minority be at least 5 percent helps all students feel more comfortable. Its 1.5% at each school. Such a small amount of kids. It's supposed to be a regional school. Not a Chantilly and Mclean magnet.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Meanwhile Black families would just like to be statistically represented at TJ while AA families are complaining about making up less than 70% of the school population.

This is kind of the issue right. I mean it's kind of hard to cry discrimination when you are grossly overrepresented in the environment you claim has and is discriminating against you.

At some point the golden goose is going to get cooked, the baby will get thrown out with the bathwater, and TJ will be no more or will have a full on race blind 100% lottery admissions policy. Anyone with a GPA above a certain point will be offered the chance to apply, and all admissions will be pulled out of a hat. At that point levels will more adequately reflect the demographic makeup of the county. Win/win.

The forces aligned against merit have existed for generations. You seem to be saying that if we don't feed the beat at least a little bit by letting more undeterred URM in, we could lose the whole thing.

I would say that we should have an education system that prepares URM to get in under their own steam without favor or charity.

Well, yes.

When 20% of the population is taking 70% of the seats, there is going to be a backlash especially when the rules are set by democratically elected board members.
We live in a democracy and that means that results have to be acceptable to the majority regardless of who deserves what.
Having a selective school be 70% asian in an area where the population is like 20% asian just isn't acceptable.
And crying about merit isn't going to change that.

You seem to be having a problem accepting what FCPS is confirming with its own actions. There is not as much interest in advanced STEM education among various ethnic groups as the asian american students. For 550 seats, from entire 5 participating counties there are less than a 1000 non-asian american applicants. So when 1600+ asian american applicants are stepping up to study and learn STEM subjects at TJ's in-depth rigor, FCPS is glad to respond by extending offers to about 340 of them. Different ethnic student group have different interests, and FCPS accommodates their interests accordingly.

https://www.fcps.edu/news/offers-extended-thomas-jefferson-high-school-science-and-technology-class-2029

+1 Math and science, especially at TJ, is tough. And a there are a lot of parents and kids out there, of all stripes, that don't have it in them to prepare for that kind of education. They'd rather take their kids out of school to travel, or have them spend summers at the pool, or just relax and be kids. I don't necessarily fault them for that, but you can't "push in" kids who aren't qualified and don't have the drive and preparation for the rigor that they will face at TJ. Can't have it both ways. I'm thinking mainly of my white friends and neighbors, but it applies to URMs as well.

You are trying hard to stir up the forum suggesting Asian Americans should point fingers at Whites for the problems at TJ. It's not working

There didn't used to be a "problem" at TJ. Kids who qualified chose to work their butts off, had a long school day, and worked really hard at academics. My kids didn't want that, spent time with sports, PT jobs, other activities, and a lot of hanging out with friends and family. I didn't see them passionate enough about STEM to put the effort in and excel at TJ, so I was okay with it. Instead they thrived in their base school (still well ranked) and went to pretty decent universities and had the collegiate experience. I think they were a little surprised upon graduation to find the wide gulf between their liberal arts salaries and those of their friends who had more technical majors, but each launched and is living a happy, fulfilling life.

Kids were cheating to get in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Meanwhile Black families would just like to be statistically represented at TJ while AA families are complaining about making up less than 70% of the school population.

This is kind of the issue right. I mean it's kind of hard to cry discrimination when you are grossly overrepresented in the environment you claim has and is discriminating against you.

At some point the golden goose is going to get cooked, the baby will get thrown out with the bathwater, and TJ will be no more or will have a full on race blind 100% lottery admissions policy. Anyone with a GPA above a certain point will be offered the chance to apply, and all admissions will be pulled out of a hat. At that point levels will more adequately reflect the demographic makeup of the county. Win/win.

The forces aligned against merit have existed for generations. You seem to be saying that if we don't feed the beat at least a little bit by letting more undeterred URM in, we could lose the whole thing.

I would say that we should have an education system that prepares URM to get in under their own steam without favor or charity.

Well, yes.

When 20% of the population is taking 70% of the seats, there is going to be a backlash especially when the rules are set by democratically elected board members.
We live in a democracy and that means that results have to be acceptable to the majority regardless of who deserves what.
Having a selective school be 70% asian in an area where the population is like 20% asian just isn't acceptable.
And crying about merit isn't going to change that.

You seem to be having a problem accepting what FCPS is confirming with its own actions. There is not as much interest in advanced STEM education among various ethnic groups as the asian american students. For 550 seats, from entire 5 participating counties there are less than a 1000 non-asian american applicants. So when 1600+ asian american applicants are stepping up to study and learn STEM subjects at TJ's in-depth rigor, FCPS is glad to respond by extending offers to about 340 of them. Different ethnic student group have different interests, and FCPS accommodates their interests accordingly.

https://www.fcps.edu/news/offers-extended-thomas-jefferson-high-school-science-and-technology-class-2029

+1 Math and science, especially at TJ, is tough. And a there are a lot of parents and kids out there, of all stripes, that don't have it in them to prepare for that kind of education. They'd rather take their kids out of school to travel, or have them spend summers at the pool, or just relax and be kids. I don't necessarily fault them for that, but you can't "push in" kids who aren't qualified and don't have the drive and preparation for the rigor that they will face at TJ. Can't have it both ways. I'm thinking mainly of my white friends and neighbors, but it applies to URMs as well.

You are trying hard to stir up the forum suggesting Asian Americans should point fingers at Whites for the problems at TJ. It's not working

There didn't used to be a "problem" at TJ. Kids who qualified chose to work their butts off, had a long school day, and worked really hard at academics. My kids didn't want that, spent time with sports, PT jobs, other activities, and a lot of hanging out with friends and family. I didn't see them passionate enough about STEM to put the effort in and excel at TJ, so I was okay with it. Instead they thrived in their base school (still well ranked) and went to pretty decent universities and had the collegiate experience. I think they were a little surprised upon graduation to find the wide gulf between their liberal arts salaries and those of their friends who had more technical majors, but each launched and is living a happy, fulfilling life.

Kids were cheating to get in.

years of practice for public school sports team tryouts?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I also think kids were intimidated from attending if they were such a small minority. Having each minority be at least 5 percent helps all students feel more comfortable. Its 1.5% at each school. Such a small amount of kids. It's supposed to be a regional school. Not a Chantilly and Mclean magnet.

FCPS has been generous in extending offers to meet diversity target, but there’s only so much it can do if students find the TJ curriculum too challenging and choose to return to their base schools, where it's easy to get grades and they are not required to learn calculus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Meanwhile Black families would just like to be statistically represented at TJ while AA families are complaining about making up less than 70% of the school population.

But legit question. What would you say is keeping black families from being statistically represented at TJ under the old admissions through demonstrated achievement and high test scores model?
Racism?
Discrimination?
Is there something keeping black, Hispanic, and white students in fcps from achieving the same high test results and merit standards as the Asian students? And what would that be?
Is it possible that the family’s focus and orientation in the home toward supporting and expecting high academic success plays a more significant role in Asian American households?
And if so, shouldn’t we be trying to study that and then encourage non-Asian families to emulate those values and practices to yield similar results rather than re-orient the entire admissions system to artificially capture different demographics?

I think most Americans view the hyper fixation that some Asian families place on academics as not a positive approach that needs modeling and further encouragement

Of course they are free to feel that way and to live their own lives, but the same applies to the Asians.

If the Asians work hard and succeed, that is meritocracy.

There are many paths to fulfillment in life. In our family, only my DH was STEM-oriented. Fortunately, for the rest of us because his career was the more lucrative and allowed our kids to pursue their dreams. It's fine for "most Americans" to look at Asians as "hyper fixated" on academics, but in that case, don't expect your kids to have an equal shot at TJ, MIT, CalTech, etc. Those institutions reward kids who have been working hard since childhood on STEM disciplines. My only gripe with that is those well off families who are not American citizens and do not plan to stay in the US permanently. They do know which of our educational institutions are producing top STEM graduates before they arrive. IMO, the real scandal is the foreign families whose kids qualify for our elite institutions (sometimes for free or subsidized rates), but then bring their knowledge back to their home countries who benefit at the US's expense.

Are you sure?

Google (now Alphabet): Co-founded by Sergey Brin, who immigrated from Russia and studied at Stanford University.

Intel: Co-founded by Andy Grove, who fled Communist Hungary and earned his PhD from the University of California, Berkeley.

Qualcomm: Co-founded by Andrew Viterbi, the son of Italian-Jewish immigrants, who earned a doctorate from the University of Southern California.

eBay: Founded by Pierre Omidyar, born in France to Iranian immigrant parents, who studied computer science at Tufts University.

Yahoo!: Co-founded by Jerry Yang, who immigrated from Taiwan and earned both bachelor's and master's degrees in electrical engineering from Stanford University.

Instagram: Co-founded by Mike Krieger, who immigrated from Brazil to study at Stanford University.

YouTube: Co-founded by Steve Chen, who immigrated from Taiwan at a young age and studied computer science at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign.

LinkedIn: Co-founded by Eric Ly, who immigrated from Vietnam and studied at Stanford.

Nvidia: Co-founded by Jensen Huang, who immigrated from Taiwan and studied at Oregon State University and Stanford University.

Bose Corporation: Founded by Amar Bose, an Indian immigrant who earned his bachelor's, master's, and doctoral degrees from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

Sun Microsystems: Co-founded by Vinod Khosla, an Indian immigrant who earned master's degree from Carnegie Mellon University

Panda Express: Co-founded by Andrew Cherng, who immigrated from China and earned a bachelor's degree from Baker University

and a million more....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Meanwhile Black families would just like to be statistically represented at TJ while AA families are complaining about making up less than 70% of the school population.

But legit question. What would you say is keeping black families from being statistically represented at TJ under the old admissions through demonstrated achievement and high test scores model?
Racism?
Discrimination?
Is there something keeping black, Hispanic, and white students in fcps from achieving the same high test results and merit standards as the Asian students? And what would that be?
Is it possible that the family’s focus and orientation in the home toward supporting and expecting high academic success plays a more significant role in Asian American households?
And if so, shouldn’t we be trying to study that and then encourage non-Asian families to emulate those values and practices to yield similar results rather than re-orient the entire admissions system to artificially capture different demographics?

The biggest factor for academic achievement, at least with respect to TJ admissions, is family wealth.

That’s why before the admissions change only <1% of kids admitted came from low-income families. Even after the change, those kids are still at a huge disadvantage.

By allocating a small number of seats to all MSs, bright kids from high-FRE middle schools now have a shot of being admitted. Previously, it was nearly impossible for them to compete against kids from the affluent feeder schools that offered tons of STEM programming.

The only reason the FARMS and ELL rates have gone up at TJ is because those students receive bonus “experience” points. If a non FARM/ELL (likely a lot of these students are getting double bonus points), they are taking seats away from MORE QUALIFIED applicants.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let kids follow what they're genuinely interested in. If students loves STEM and demonstrate readiness, let them dive into it. Same goes for sports—leave it to the kids who are passionate and want to push themselves to the next level. And if a child is drawn to the arts, support them in exploring that path. There’s really no need to track and analyze student’s ethnicity in these interest areas.

Trying to force kids into certain interest areas just to check a box for diversity doesn’t help anyone. Support interests, dont limit or admit based on politics.

Tracking and analyzing children’s skin color is a passion for democrats. They love to divide children into separate “baskets.” They are obsessed with skin color over fairness.

Notice how it was the most politically-extreme democrats on the all-democrat School Board who rammed through the TJ changes right in the middle of the Covid pandemic crisis?

SB chair Karl Frisch was first elected to the SB after leaving his full-time job as a democrat public policy advocate. He has attempted to use his position as a mere stepping-stone to higher office as a democrat. He does not even have children, let alone children in FCPS. Until he completed a correspondence-degree last year, he didn’t even have a college degree.

His political campaign funding does not come from within FFX county. It does not even form from Virginia; the majority of his campaign money comes from the West Coast, where he promotes himself as a partisan activist.

Then Frisch gave away much of that money to candidates like Kyle McDaniel, who is under multiple fraud investigations.

These democrats are the people who schemed to alter the TJ admissions policy to try to excluded as many Asian / Indian students as they could get away with.

The only reason many Asians want to attend TJ is that it's a high percentage of Asians. They are actually being racist by pushing their kids to get in with cram schools.

The US lumps all Asians (well over half the world’s population) into one bucket.

That isn’t how Asians view themselves.

Asians want to be at TJ because it is the best.

Just imagine it was the elite travel sports team your kid has been training for and you will understand.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not even close to a win/win. If you create a school for the best, and then you turn the best away, then it’s a lose/lose.

Good thing they aren’t turning the best away, then.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Meanwhile Black families would just like to be statistically represented at TJ while AA families are complaining about making up less than 70% of the school population.

But legit question. What would you say is keeping black families from being statistically represented at TJ under the old admissions through demonstrated achievement and high test scores model?
Racism?
Discrimination?
Is there something keeping black, Hispanic, and white students in fcps from achieving the same high test results and merit standards as the Asian students? And what would that be?
Is it possible that the family’s focus and orientation in the home toward supporting and expecting high academic success plays a more significant role in Asian American households?
And if so, shouldn’t we be trying to study that and then encourage non-Asian families to emulate those values and practices to yield similar results rather than re-orient the entire admissions system to artificially capture different demographics?

The biggest factor for academic achievement, at least with respect to TJ admissions, is family wealth.

That’s why before the admissions change only <1% of kids admitted came from low-income families. Even after the change, those kids are still at a huge disadvantage.

By allocating a small number of seats to all MSs, bright kids from high-FRE middle schools now have a shot of being admitted. Previously, it was nearly impossible for them to compete against kids from the affluent feeder schools that offered tons of STEM programming.

The only reason the FARMS and ELL rates have gone up at TJ is because those students receive bonus “experience” points. If a non FARM/ELL (likely a lot of these students are getting double bonus points), they are taking seats away from MORE QUALIFIED applicants.

TJ is a public school resource that should be accessible to the whole community, not just a handful of wealthy feeder schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Meanwhile Black families would just like to be statistically represented at TJ while AA families are complaining about making up less than 70% of the school population.

But legit question. What would you say is keeping black families from being statistically represented at TJ under the old admissions through demonstrated achievement and high test scores model?
Racism?
Discrimination?
Is there something keeping black, Hispanic, and white students in fcps from achieving the same high test results and merit standards as the Asian students? And what would that be?
Is it possible that the family’s focus and orientation in the home toward supporting and expecting high academic success plays a more significant role in Asian American households?
And if so, shouldn’t we be trying to study that and then encourage non-Asian families to emulate those values and practices to yield similar results rather than re-orient the entire admissions system to artificially capture different demographics?

The biggest factor for academic achievement, at least with respect to TJ admissions, is family wealth.

That’s why before the admissions change only <1% of kids admitted came from low-income families. Even after the change, those kids are still at a huge disadvantage.

By allocating a small number of seats to all MSs, bright kids from high-FRE middle schools now have a shot of being admitted. Previously, it was nearly impossible for them to compete against kids from the affluent feeder schools that offered tons of STEM programming.

The only reason the FARMS and ELL rates have gone up at TJ is because those students receive bonus “experience” points. If a non FARM/ELL (likely a lot of these students are getting double bonus points), they are taking seats away from MORE QUALIFIED applicants.

TJ is a public school resource that should be accessible to the whole community, not just a handful of wealthy feeder schools.

The feeder schools don't attend TJ. The students do. This is about students -not the feeder schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Meanwhile Black families would just like to be statistically represented at TJ while AA families are complaining about making up less than 70% of the school population.

But legit question. What would you say is keeping black families from being statistically represented at TJ under the old admissions through demonstrated achievement and high test scores model?
Racism?
Discrimination?
Is there something keeping black, Hispanic, and white students in fcps from achieving the same high test results and merit standards as the Asian students? And what would that be?
Is it possible that the family’s focus and orientation in the home toward supporting and expecting high academic success plays a more significant role in Asian American households?
And if so, shouldn’t we be trying to study that and then encourage non-Asian families to emulate those values and practices to yield similar results rather than re-orient the entire admissions system to artificially capture different demographics?

The biggest factor for academic achievement, at least with respect to TJ admissions, is family wealth.

That’s why before the admissions change only <1% of kids admitted came from low-income families. Even after the change, those kids are still at a huge disadvantage.

By allocating a small number of seats to all MSs, bright kids from high-FRE middle schools now have a shot of being admitted. Previously, it was nearly impossible for them to compete against kids from the affluent feeder schools that offered tons of STEM programming.

The only reason the FARMS and ELL rates have gone up at TJ is because those students receive bonus “experience” points. If a non FARM/ELL (likely a lot of these students are getting double bonus points), they are taking seats away from MORE QUALIFIED applicants.

TJ is a public school resource that should be accessible to the whole community, not just a handful of wealthy feeder schools.

Academically wealthy, not athletically wealthy or financially wealthy

[Anonymous]

Allegedly, the new system was designed to aid black and hispanic students.

But as a practical matter, the changes raised the number of white admitees, no?

Not surprising considering some ethnic groups are not as evenly distributed throughout the county compared to white students. Thus, taking a fixed % of students from each school would raise white acceptances, while decreasing certain other groups. Isn't this what was done?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Meanwhile Black families would just like to be statistically represented at TJ while AA families are complaining about making up less than 70% of the school population.

But legit question. What would you say is keeping black families from being statistically represented at TJ under the old admissions through demonstrated achievement and high test scores model?
Racism?
Discrimination?
Is there something keeping black, Hispanic, and white students in fcps from achieving the same high test results and merit standards as the Asian students? And what would that be?
Is it possible that the family’s focus and orientation in the home toward supporting and expecting high academic success plays a more significant role in Asian American households?
And if so, shouldn’t we be trying to study that and then encourage non-Asian families to emulate those values and practices to yield similar results rather than re-orient the entire admissions system to artificially capture different demographics?

The biggest factor for academic achievement, at least with respect to TJ admissions, is family wealth.

That’s why before the admissions change only <1% of kids admitted came from low-income families. Even after the change, those kids are still at a huge disadvantage.

By allocating a small number of seats to all MSs, bright kids from high-FRE middle schools now have a shot of being admitted. Previously, it was nearly impossible for them to compete against kids from the affluent feeder schools that offered tons of STEM programming.

The only reason the FARMS and ELL rates have gone up at TJ is because those students receive bonus “experience” points. If a non FARM/ELL (likely a lot of these students are getting double bonus points), they are taking seats away from MORE QUALIFIED applicants.

TJ is a public school resource that should be accessible to the whole community, not just a handful of wealthy feeder schools.

FCPS seems them as academically wealthy, not financially wealthy. That's a good thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Allegedly, the new system was designed to aid black and hispanic students.

But as a practical matter, the changes raised the number of white admitees, no?

Not surprising considering some ethnic groups are not as evenly distributed throughout the county compared to white students. Thus, taking a fixed % of students from each school would raise white acceptances, while decreasing certain other groups. Isn't this what was done?

No. there are no political points to score for raising majority percent. But the second largest volume of applications caused the unintended effect. The entire admissions change is a mess - the very students admitted for diversity purposes are the only ones returning to base school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Meanwhile Black families would just like to be statistically represented at TJ while AA families are complaining about making up less than 70% of the school population.

But legit question. What would you say is keeping black families from being statistically represented at TJ under the old admissions through demonstrated achievement and high test scores model?
Racism?
Discrimination?
Is there something keeping black, Hispanic, and white students in fcps from achieving the same high test results and merit standards as the Asian students? And what would that be?
Is it possible that the family’s focus and orientation in the home toward supporting and expecting high academic success plays a more significant role in Asian American households?
And if so, shouldn’t we be trying to study that and then encourage non-Asian families to emulate those values and practices to yield similar results rather than re-orient the entire admissions system to artificially capture different demographics?

The biggest factor for academic achievement, at least with respect to TJ admissions, is family wealth.

That’s why before the admissions change only <1% of kids admitted came from low-income families. Even after the change, those kids are still at a huge disadvantage.

By allocating a small number of seats to all MSs, bright kids from high-FRE middle schools now have a shot of being admitted. Previously, it was nearly impossible for them to compete against kids from the affluent feeder schools that offered tons of STEM programming.

The only reason the FARMS and ELL rates have gone up at TJ is because those students receive bonus “experience” points. If a non FARM/ELL (likely a lot of these students are getting double bonus points), they are taking seats away from MORE QUALIFIED applicants.

TJ is a public school resource that should be accessible to the whole community, not just a handful of wealthy feeder schools.

Academically wealthy, not athletically wealthy or financially wealthy

Financially wealthy.

Less than 1% of the class of 2024 came from economically-disadvantaged families. In a county with 36% of kids qualifying for FRM.