Help settle a debate about saying grace

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We had Christian friends that would occasionally join us for dinner at our home. I loved spending money and hours cooking an elaborate meal and then sitting there while they thanked Jesus for the meal. THAT felt disrespectful

Interesting, I've never thought about it like that.

fake post: Christians say grace to God. Sir or Madam Elaborate Meal is trolling.

[Anonymous]

We don’t say grace, but if we are eating with people who I know do I invite them to say a prayer before we start. It doesn’t bother me to sit through a 15 second blessing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You don't have to respect their beliefs, but there is no way to respectfully ask people to refrain from praying. They will be offended. There's a big difference between not being religious and being so offended by other people's religion that you fee compelled to prevent them from practicing it in your presence.

Exactly.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I invite people I care about to enjoy a meal with me at my home or a restaurant, I want them to be comfortable and I want to enjoy time in their presence.

At home, being a host isn’t about the host imposing their rules on their guests. The host is supposed to accommodate their guests.

I don’t tell anyone what they can or cannot do in regards to their beliefs. If I invited a vegan to my home, am I going to insist that they eat meat because I do and my wishes are running the get together, because I am the host? No, I accommodate my guest by serving vegan dishes, because I invited my vegan guest to dinner. When I invite someone to my house, I am making a huge effort to provide them with a nice memory.

I consider it a privilege for my friends to feel comfortable around me and to live their lives authentically.

If I care about someone enough to schedule a meal with them as a pleasant activity, the last thing I am going to do is stress out over prayer and who tells who what to do, etc.
You are going to make a big deal and ruin a get together over something that isn’t a big deal? Somehow I don’t think people who would do this really respect or care about their friends or family.

And remember: the host accommodates the guests, not the other way around.

Disagree in these circumstances

If you personally as a host want to accommodate your vegan guests by planning a vegan centric menu then that’s great for you. Nevertheless if a vegan is invited to a dinner as one of a larger group it’s just plain rude for them to expect/request the host prepare a vegan-centric meal or to make a big show over their diet restrictions during the meal. The same principle is true for an invited dinner guest expecting everyone to accommodate them in observing a collective prayer before a meal rather than just discretely saying a silent prayer themselves.

On the flip side, as a vegan hosting a meal you shouldn’t be expected to prepare meat dishes for your carnivore loving friends and should feel free to serve them a meal adapted to your diet, just as you should be free to continue to observe a tradition of saying a collective grace before a meal in your own home even if guests are present m.

I think the equivalent situation here would be for the vegan to bring their own food which is appropriate if the host has not prepared any or enough vegan food (say, the guest wants something with protein and not just lettuce and carrots). If the food is not vegan, the vegan cannot eat, due to their beliefs. Similarly, the religious person does not feel right eating without saying a prayer thanking God. In both cases, the vegan/prayerful person should be respectful and quiet, not making a big show. However, they should be able to say a verbal prayer if they wish, or explain they have their own tofu dish, and everyone should respect them with no obligation to participate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm an atheist. If someone invited to dinner wants to say a quick prayer before their meal, they are welcome to. I would appreciate a heads up, so that I can let everyone know that Suzy would like to say a prayer, and could we all be quiet before starting dinner. If out at a restaurant, I would refrain from eating while they said their prayer.

This is not onerous. I don't see what the problem is with letting someone go ahead with their prayer. It's not like it's harming anyone.

So the people of different beliefs should not be respected? Why can’t the person with the belief pray quietly, and be thankful to their God quietly? Then everybody can deal with it on their own terms in accordance with their own beliefs.

I mean this example in a public place with a mixed group, not in a private home.

Atheist PP. I don't see how it is disrespectful to people of different beliefs to allow one or more people in a group to say grace. I would be equally open to any other prayer; it doesn't require participation, just not being rude.

Great idea! So then the atheist can say "well there is no evidence of a god, but man do those jalepeno poppers look good, I am eager to eat them!" That should not offend anyone, right?

The majority of prominent conceptions of God explicitly or effectively posit a being whose existence is not testable either by proof or disproof. Therefore, the question of God's existence may lie outside the purview of modern science by definition.

Why would you bring up something at a meal with friends that illustrates how dumb you are?

Someone who does not believe in a god is dumb?

Also, where do you see the word "proof" in the post you are replying to?

Here's the answer: you don't! You are being dishonest and straw-man-ing.

You are advertising your ignorance regarding this subject. I would tell you that you should not do so, but I don’t think you have to worry about being invited to meals with friends very often, if ever.

Your insult is a tacit admission that you have no substantive response. Please try and engage fairly and with substance.

Why do atheists have to start arguing about whether God exists or not IN EVERY THREAD?

Go back and read the thread above. The first person to bring up existence/proof was a theist. All the atheists were talking about their belief.

Are you ok? We are discussing saying grace before a meal to GOD. In this thread we all assume that GOD is listening to us pray before meals and we are discussing etiquette only, not His existence.

Some jackass atheist had to start talking about evidence for God and how there isn’t any. That has nothing to do with this topic. Grow up damn.

No, you did not read the thread above.

The first person above to talk about "proof or disproof" is a theist.

I guess you could claim the atheists should not respond, but make no mistake, the threadjack started with a theist.

[Anonymous]

Our policy. The person who wants grace can ask those assembled if anyone minds a pause for giving grace. If so, then that person can lead the prayer. If someone says they prefer not, then the meal continues and the person can say a quiet personal grace before eating. I have had both situations and the person who wants grace, can does not have to do it publicly. Grace is a personal choice and should not be imposed on everyone if they aren't comfortable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Our policy. The person who wants grace can ask those assembled if anyone minds a pause for giving grace. If so, then that person can lead the prayer. If someone says they prefer not, then the meal continues and the person can say a quiet personal grace before eating. I have had both situations and the person who wants grace, can does not have to do it publicly. Grace is a personal choice and should not be imposed on everyone if they aren't comfortable.

What about Muslim, Buddhist, or Hindu friends? Do you make them ask permission from everyone else present to pray according to their religious beliefs before eating?

I don’t. They don’t have to get permission from other people to practice their religion in my presence.

Why does someone else practicing their religion make you uncomfortable,

Do Muslims and Buddhists and Christians have cooties, and you are afraid of cooties cross over during a 30 second prayer of thanksgiving?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our policy. The person who wants grace can ask those assembled if anyone minds a pause for giving grace. If so, then that person can lead the prayer. If someone says they prefer not, then the meal continues and the person can say a quiet personal grace before eating. I have had both situations and the person who wants grace, can does not have to do it publicly. Grace is a personal choice and should not be imposed on everyone if they aren't comfortable.

What about Muslim, Buddhist, or Hindu friends? Do you make them ask permission from everyone else present to pray according to their religious beliefs before eating?

I don’t. They don’t have to get permission from other people to practice their religion in my presence.

Why does someone else practicing their religion make you uncomfortable,

Do Muslims and Buddhists and Christians have cooties, and you are afraid of cooties cross over during a 30 second prayer of thanksgiving?

NP

You think someone should just break into prayer without a tiny prelude?

I don’t really care but I have family that do not want to hold hands and I think that should be respected.

I don’t control everyone but if your going to pray or do a toast usually something is said like… I’d like to propose a toast, or if you I will lead be leading a short blessing.

But also I’m not the atheist police if someone starts in their salad during it so what.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You don't have to respect their beliefs, but there is no way to respectfully ask people to refrain from praying. They will be offended. There's a big difference between not being religious and being so offended by other people's religion that you fee compelled to prevent them from practicing it in your presence.

Exactly.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I invite people I care about to enjoy a meal with me at my home or a restaurant, I want them to be comfortable and I want to enjoy time in their presence.

At home, being a host isn’t about the host imposing their rules on their guests. The host is supposed to accommodate their guests.

I don’t tell anyone what they can or cannot do in regards to their beliefs. If I invited a vegan to my home, am I going to insist that they eat meat because I do and my wishes are running the get together, because I am the host? No, I accommodate my guest by serving vegan dishes, because I invited my vegan guest to dinner. When I invite someone to my house, I am making a huge effort to provide them with a nice memory.

I consider it a privilege for my friends to feel comfortable around me and to live their lives authentically.

If I care about someone enough to schedule a meal with them as a pleasant activity, the last thing I am going to do is stress out over prayer and who tells who what to do, etc.
You are going to make a big deal and ruin a get together over something that isn’t a big deal? Somehow I don’t think people who would do this really respect or care about their friends or family.

And remember: the host accommodates the guests, not the other way around.

Disagree in these circumstances

If you personally as a host want to accommodate your vegan guests by planning a vegan centric menu then that’s great for you. Nevertheless if a vegan is invited to a dinner as one of a larger group it’s just plain rude for them to expect/request the host prepare a vegan-centric meal or to make a big show over their diet restrictions during the meal. The same principle is true for an invited dinner guest expecting everyone to accommodate them in observing a collective prayer before a meal rather than just discretely saying a silent prayer themselves.

On the flip side, as a vegan hosting a meal you shouldn’t be expected to prepare meat dishes for your carnivore loving friends and should feel free to serve them a meal adapted to your diet, just as you should be free to continue to observe a tradition of saying a collective grace before a meal in your own home even if guests are present m.

I think the equivalent situation here would be for the vegan to bring their own food which is appropriate if the host has not prepared any or enough vegan food (say, the guest wants something with protein and not just lettuce and carrots). If the food is not vegan, the vegan cannot eat, due to their beliefs. Similarly, the religious person does not feel right eating without saying a prayer thanking God. In both cases, the vegan/prayerful person should be respectful and quiet, not making a big show. However, they should be able to say a verbal prayer if they wish, or explain they have their own tofu dish, and everyone should respect them with no obligation to participate.

Mostly agree but (as you suggest) the vegan/praying guests should strive to be as unobtrusive as possible in meeting their specific needs without unduly imposing on others or usurping the host.

As a Christian myself I’d personally reject the idea that a prayer before meals must be voiced out loud in front of a non religious group and certainly wouldn’t expect others to wait to eat.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We had Christian friends that would occasionally join us for dinner at our home. I loved spending money and hours cooking an elaborate meal and then sitting there while they thanked Jesus for the meal. THAT felt disrespectful

So at no point in the dinner or evening they said thank you to you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You don't have to respect their beliefs, but there is no way to respectfully ask people to refrain from praying. They will be offended. There's a big difference between not being religious and being so offended by other people's religion that you fee compelled to prevent them from practicing it in your presence.

Ok but is it alright to begin eating while they spend their time in prayer?

How long do the Christians you eat with pray before meals?

If a Muslim, Buddhist, or Hindu was praying before a meal, would you start slamming food down your throat like a MY 600 lb life patient during their prayer? I personally would allow the Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, or Christian to finish their prayer before eating as a mark of respect to my friends, not their religion.

But by all means, start cramming your mouth full of food asap. It’s your absolute best choice to show what a pleasant and open minded and accepting person you are.

None of my Muslim, Buddhist, or Hindu friends have ever expressed an interest in praying before a meal. You’re trying to co-opt other religions into what is generally a Christian practice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You don't have to respect their beliefs, but there is no way to respectfully ask people to refrain from praying. They will be offended. There's a big difference between not being religious and being so offended by other people's religion that you fee compelled to prevent them from practicing it in your presence.

Ok but is it alright to begin eating while they spend their time in prayer?

How long do the Christians you eat with pray before meals?

If a Muslim, Buddhist, or Hindu was praying before a meal, would you start slamming food down your throat like a MY 600 lb life patient during their prayer? I personally would allow the Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, or Christian to finish their prayer before eating as a mark of respect to my friends, not their religion.

But by all means, start cramming your mouth full of food asap. It’s your absolute best choice to show what a pleasant and open minded and accepting person you are.

None of my Muslim, Buddhist, or Hindu friends have ever expressed an interest in praying before a meal. You’re trying to co-opt other religions into what is generally a Christian practice.

Over 80% of Muslims fast during their holy month. Would you invite a Muslim to dinner during Ramadan?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We had Christian friends that would occasionally join us for dinner at our home. I loved spending money and hours cooking an elaborate meal and then sitting there while they thanked Jesus for the meal. THAT felt disrespectful

So at no point in the dinner or evening they said thank you to you?

+1 yeah pp did they not say great dinner, thanks for having us, and reciprocate at some point by inviting you over for dinner?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You don't have to respect their beliefs, but there is no way to respectfully ask people to refrain from praying. They will be offended. There's a big difference between not being religious and being so offended by other people's religion that you fee compelled to prevent them from practicing it in your presence.

Ok but is it alright to begin eating while they spend their time in prayer?

How long do the Christians you eat with pray before meals?

If a Muslim, Buddhist, or Hindu was praying before a meal, would you start slamming food down your throat like a MY 600 lb life patient during their prayer? I personally would allow the Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, or Christian to finish their prayer before eating as a mark of respect to my friends, not their religion.

But by all means, start cramming your mouth full of food asap. It’s your absolute best choice to show what a pleasant and open minded and accepting person you are.

None of my Muslim, Buddhist, or Hindu friends have ever expressed an interest in praying before a meal. You’re trying to co-opt other religions into what is generally a Christian practice.

Over 80% of Muslims fast during their holy month. Would you invite a Muslim to dinner during Ramadan?

I certainly wouldn’t. You are trying so hard to make this work, but it’s not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Our policy. The person who wants grace can ask those assembled if anyone minds a pause for giving grace. If so, then that person can lead the prayer. If someone says they prefer not, then the meal continues and the person can say a quiet personal grace before eating. I have had both situations and the person who wants grace, can does not have to do it publicly. Grace is a personal choice and should not be imposed on everyone if they aren't comfortable.

How and when do you communicate your policy?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You don't have to respect their beliefs, but there is no way to respectfully ask people to refrain from praying. They will be offended. There's a big difference between not being religious and being so offended by other people's religion that you fee compelled to prevent them from practicing it in your presence.

Exactly.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I invite people I care about to enjoy a meal with me at my home or a restaurant, I want them to be comfortable and I want to enjoy time in their presence.

At home, being a host isn’t about the host imposing their rules on their guests. The host is supposed to accommodate their guests.

I don’t tell anyone what they can or cannot do in regards to their beliefs. If I invited a vegan to my home, am I going to insist that they eat meat because I do and my wishes are running the get together, because I am the host? No, I accommodate my guest by serving vegan dishes, because I invited my vegan guest to dinner. When I invite someone to my house, I am making a huge effort to provide them with a nice memory.

I consider it a privilege for my friends to feel comfortable around me and to live their lives authentically.

If I care about someone enough to schedule a meal with them as a pleasant activity, the last thing I am going to do is stress out over prayer and who tells who what to do, etc.
You are going to make a big deal and ruin a get together over something that isn’t a big deal? Somehow I don’t think people who would do this really respect or care about their friends or family.

And remember: the host accommodates the guests, not the other way around.

Disagree in these circumstances

If you personally as a host want to accommodate your vegan guests by planning a vegan centric menu then that’s great for you. Nevertheless if a vegan is invited to a dinner as one of a larger group it’s just plain rude for them to expect/request the host prepare a vegan-centric meal or to make a big show over their diet restrictions during the meal. The same principle is true for an invited dinner guest expecting everyone to accommodate them in observing a collective prayer before a meal rather than just discretely saying a silent prayer themselves.

On the flip side, as a vegan hosting a meal you shouldn’t be expected to prepare meat dishes for your carnivore loving friends and should feel free to serve them a meal adapted to your diet, just as you should be free to continue to observe a tradition of saying a collective grace before a meal in your own home even if guests are present m.

I think the equivalent situation here would be for the vegan to bring their own food which is appropriate if the host has not prepared any or enough vegan food (say, the guest wants something with protein and not just lettuce and carrots). If the food is not vegan, the vegan cannot eat, due to their beliefs. Similarly, the religious person does not feel right eating without saying a prayer thanking God. In both cases, the vegan/prayerful person should be respectful and quiet, not making a big show. However, they should be able to say a verbal prayer if they wish, or explain they have their own tofu dish, and everyone should respect them with no obligation to participate.

This is a great analogy, pp. Another analogy would be the Jewish or Muslim person bringing a chicken dish to the pig roast.