VT ahead of WM in USNews

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does this strike anyone else as off? VT is a fine institution that has certainly made great strides.

But, WM has a lower acceptance rate, more professors with PHD’s from top schools, smaller classes, higher proportion of students doing undergraduate research, and the most obvious indicator, WM students often head to Ivys and high tier consulting and govt jobs directly after college, while VT grads USUALLY head a bit lower. These are not close, btw, this is all by a decently significant margin.

Again, I don’t want to fall into the trap of giving too much credence to rankings, but what is the reason for this? Does this mean VT has truly overtaken WM in terms of prestige and job opportunities?

Do you have any actual links to back up your claims? Any at all?

DP. The WSJ recently had a series of articles on this. Among publics, W&M graduate salaries ranked in the top 20 in five areas: Finance, Technology, Management Consulting, Marketing and Law. VT was in the top 20 in Management consulting only. In Management Consulting, W&M was #9 and VT #17.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/top-colleges-high-paying-finance-jobs-e6742bb8?mod=ig_collegepay
https://www.wsj.com/articles/top-colleges-high-paying-jobs-tech-58b1588c?mod=ig_collegepay
https://www.wsj.com/articles/top-colleges-high-paying-jobs-management-consulting-589f15c9?mod=ig_collegepay
https://www.wsj.com/articles/stanford-berkeley-top-colleges-for-high-paying-jobs-in-law-457cc225?mod=ig_collegepay
https://www.wsj.com/articles/top-colleges-high-paying-jobs-marketing-b0570aa3?mod=ig_collegepay

Do you have any sources regarding the quality of education at these schools?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I haven’t been to VT in a long time. Has it changed so much in those years? It was in a rural town and most of what students did for fun was drink and watch sports? My husband transferred out because there was nothing there if that wasn’t your scene. W&M also not exactly in a bustling location but definitely has less of a Greek influence. Unless Tech has changed entirely over those years (and hey maybe it has) these just don’t seem like schools the same kind of student would choose.

VT has less than 20% Greek participation. The vast majority of students there are not Greek, but are involved in the more than 800 clubs. I believe W&M has a higher Greek percentage precisely because there is not much to do there. I think your views of the schools are vastly outdated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does this strike anyone else as off? VT is a fine institution that has certainly made great strides.

But, WM has a lower acceptance rate, more professors with PHD’s from top schools, smaller classes, higher proportion of students doing undergraduate research, and the most obvious indicator, WM students often head to Ivys and high tier consulting and govt jobs directly after college, while VT grads USUALLY head a bit lower. These are not close, btw, this is all by a decently significant margin.

Again, I don’t want to fall into the trap of giving too much credence to rankings, but what is the reason for this? Does this mean VT has truly overtaken WM in terms of prestige and job opportunities?

Do you have any actual links to back up your claims? Any at all?

DP. The WSJ recently had a series of articles on this. Among publics, W&M graduate salaries ranked in the top 20 in five areas: Finance, Technology, Management Consulting, Marketing and Law. VT was in the top 20 in Management consulting only. In Management Consulting, W&M was #9 and VT #17.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/top-colleges-high-paying-finance-jobs-e6742bb8?mod=ig_collegepay
https://www.wsj.com/articles/top-colleges-high-paying-jobs-tech-58b1588c?mod=ig_collegepay
https://www.wsj.com/articles/top-colleges-high-paying-jobs-management-consulting-589f15c9?mod=ig_collegepay
https://www.wsj.com/articles/stanford-berkeley-top-colleges-for-high-paying-jobs-in-law-457cc225?mod=ig_collegepay
https://www.wsj.com/articles/top-colleges-high-paying-jobs-marketing-b0570aa3?mod=ig_collegepay

And JMU #19 for management consulting. 👏

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven’t been to VT in a long time. Has it changed so much in those years? It was in a rural town and most of what students did for fun was drink and watch sports? My husband transferred out because there was nothing there if that wasn’t your scene. W&M also not exactly in a bustling location but definitely has less of a Greek influence. Unless Tech has changed entirely over those years (and hey maybe it has) these just don’t seem like schools the same kind of student would choose.

VT has less than 20% Greek participation. The vast majority of students there are not Greek, but are involved in the more than 800 clubs. I believe W&M has a higher Greek percentage precisely because there is not much to do there. I think your views of the schools are vastly outdated.

Do you think they attract the same sort of student? Because I know a lot of kids at both, and they really do not. VT is a bit unusual in that it has the engineering and CS kids, who are pretty different than everyone else. And not good candidates for WM. The kids in other fields are different. I’ve seen kids deciding between UVA and WM. And UVA and VT. But not between WM and VT, because these schools have very little academic or social overlap.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I read a story on WTOP where they quoted the USNW people as saying they are favoring schools with strong STEM over general liberal arts education.

Maybe the above rationale explains why UVA is getting kicked out of top 25 this year.

It didn't. UVA moved up from 25 to 24. Here. https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

No, UVA is at 26.

It moved up to 24. read right here. https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

Or down to 27. They are tied with three other schools.

Was there a glitch when you checked? It says UVa at #24 on the U.S. News website. It rose one spot compared with last year and is on same level as Wash U and Emory (supposedly). Let us know if site doesn't work for you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven’t been to VT in a long time. Has it changed so much in those years? It was in a rural town and most of what students did for fun was drink and watch sports? My husband transferred out because there was nothing there if that wasn’t your scene. W&M also not exactly in a bustling location but definitely has less of a Greek influence. Unless Tech has changed entirely over those years (and hey maybe it has) these just don’t seem like schools the same kind of student would choose.

VT has less than 20% Greek participation. The vast majority of students there are not Greek, but are involved in the more than 800 clubs. I believe W&M has a higher Greek percentage precisely because there is not much to do there. I think your views of the schools are vastly outdated.

Maybe it’s because everyone I live around is obsessed with UVA vs. VT sports. It’s always turned me off to both schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s because the focus of the rankings has changed to how schools help lower income and first gen students rather than things like class sizes and undergrad education. That has been VT’s focus for the the last few years.

From the NYT article :


“The company discarded five factors that often favored wealthy colleges and together made up 18 percent of a school’s score, including undergraduate class sizes, alumni giving rates and high school class standing.

This year’s formula, which relied more on data sources beyond submissions by schools, also gave less weight to overall graduation rates and financial resources per student, which examines how much, on average, a university spends per student on costs like instruction and research.”

BINGO!! SO the rankings mean even less this year than previously (they didn't mean much then either).

I think undergrad class sizes are a key factor in quality of education---much more learning happens in a class with 25-40 students than a giant lecture hall with 500+.

VT is a good school, excellent for engineering but it is not a "better overall school than W&M"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s because the focus of the rankings has changed to how schools help lower income and first gen students rather than things like class sizes and undergrad education. That has been VT’s focus for the the last few years.

From the NYT article :


“The company discarded five factors that often favored wealthy colleges and together made up 18 percent of a school’s score, including undergraduate class sizes, alumni giving rates and high school class standing.

This year’s formula, which relied more on data sources beyond submissions by schools, also gave less weight to overall graduation rates and financial resources per student, which examines how much, on average, a university spends per student on costs like instruction and research.”

Exactly---for Chem 101 and Bio 101, those are probably best taught as a 150-200 person lecture with a 20-25 discussion section and a 20-30 lab section each week. But that 150-200 is still very different than a 500+ lecture for the core teaching.


Ignoring undergrad class size when ranking undergrad institutions seems questionable at best

The class size was so flawed. Gave top scores to class size under 20, but most college profs will tell you a room of 12 kids sometimes doesn't have enough voices for real discussion. 20 is fine. Also, it really skews my subject. There are not a lot of STEM classes with tiny numbers. So some schools tried to through labs in there, which is so different. It made no sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My Tech kid has all classes under 100 kids, and some lower. She did get out of most basic classes with her AP scores, so maybe that is why. Honestly, non of her STEM friends went to W&M, even though they got in. They went to Tech, UVA, and CNU- or out of state like Perdue and tech universities in the NorthEast. It came off as a school in flux (with construction and needed updates) with a strength in humanities. The people we know going there are all humanities majors. It makes sense that if STEM is the goal- then W&M won’t fare well in rankings.

Agreed, but ranking schools overall based on their STEM program is ridiculous. Have a separate section that ranks by degree (which they do) or STEM/Engineering.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven’t been to VT in a long time. Has it changed so much in those years? It was in a rural town and most of what students did for fun was drink and watch sports? My husband transferred out because there was nothing there if that wasn’t your scene. W&M also not exactly in a bustling location but definitely has less of a Greek influence. Unless Tech has changed entirely over those years (and hey maybe it has) these just don’t seem like schools the same kind of student would choose.

VT has less than 20% Greek participation. The vast majority of students there are not Greek, but are involved in the more than 800 clubs. I believe W&M has a higher Greek percentage precisely because there is not much to do there. I think your views of the schools are vastly outdated.

Do you think they attract the same sort of student? Because I know a lot of kids at both, and they really do not. VT is a bit unusual in that it has the engineering and CS kids, who are pretty different than everyone else. And not good candidates for WM. The kids in other fields are different. I’ve seen kids deciding between UVA and WM. And UVA and VT. But not between WM and VT, because these schools have very little academic or social overlap.

I don’t think they attract the same type of students socially, but academically - yes. Engineering is only about 1/3 of the student body at VT. The majority of students there are majoring in other disciplines.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I read a story on WTOP where they quoted the USNW people as saying they are favoring schools with strong STEM over general liberal arts education.

Maybe the above rationale explains why UVA is getting kicked out of top 25 this year.

It didn't. UVA moved up from 25 to 24. Here. https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

No, UVA is at 26.

It moved up to 24. read right here. https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

Or down to 27. They are tied with three other schools.

Was there a glitch when you checked? It says UVa at #24 on the U.S. News website. It rose one spot compared with last year and is on same level as Wash U and Emory (supposedly). Let us know if site doesn't work for you.

But in reality there aren’t 4 schools ranked 24. There are 4 schools ranked 24-27. I’m not sure why 24 bs 27 in one ranking with questionable methodology matters. I do know UVA boosters are over the top. If you were 25 and became tied with 4 schools for 24 to 27, you stayed stable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven’t been to VT in a long time. Has it changed so much in those years? It was in a rural town and most of what students did for fun was drink and watch sports? My husband transferred out because there was nothing there if that wasn’t your scene. W&M also not exactly in a bustling location but definitely has less of a Greek influence. Unless Tech has changed entirely over those years (and hey maybe it has) these just don’t seem like schools the same kind of student would choose.

VT has less than 20% Greek participation. The vast majority of students there are not Greek, but are involved in the more than 800 clubs. I believe W&M has a higher Greek percentage precisely because there is not much to do there. I think your views of the schools are vastly outdated.

Do you think they attract the same sort of student? Because I know a lot of kids at both, and they really do not. VT is a bit unusual in that it has the engineering and CS kids, who are pretty different than everyone else. And not good candidates for WM. The kids in other fields are different. I’ve seen kids deciding between UVA and WM. And UVA and VT. But not between WM and VT, because these schools have very little academic or social overlap.

I don’t think they attract the same type of students socially, but academically - yes. Engineering is only about 1/3 of the student body at VT. The majority of students there are majoring in other disciplines.

And the non-engineering students are valuing other things over the small classes, taught by full professor, discussion and writing based curriculum. Which is fine. But nobody goes to WM for the sports and nobody goes to VT for a small, discussion, presentation, writing heavy curriculum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven’t been to VT in a long time. Has it changed so much in those years? It was in a rural town and most of what students did for fun was drink and watch sports? My husband transferred out because there was nothing there if that wasn’t your scene. W&M also not exactly in a bustling location but definitely has less of a Greek influence. Unless Tech has changed entirely over those years (and hey maybe it has) these just don’t seem like schools the same kind of student would choose.

VT has less than 20% Greek participation. The vast majority of students there are not Greek, but are involved in the more than 800 clubs. I believe W&M has a higher Greek percentage precisely because there is not much to do there. I think your views of the schools are vastly outdated.

Do you think they attract the same sort of student? Because I know a lot of kids at both, and they really do not. VT is a bit unusual in that it has the engineering and CS kids, who are pretty different than everyone else. And not good candidates for WM. The kids in other fields are different. I’ve seen kids deciding between UVA and WM. And UVA and VT. But not between WM and VT, because these schools have very little academic or social overlap.

I don’t think they attract the same type of students socially, but academically - yes. Engineering is only about 1/3 of the student body at VT. The majority of students there are majoring in other disciplines.

I think the students are quite different academically (with the exception that the VT engineering students are similar to the academic profile of W&M students).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s because the focus of the rankings has changed to how schools help lower income and first gen students rather than things like class sizes and undergrad education. That has been VT’s focus for the the last few years.

From the NYT article :


“The company discarded five factors that often favored wealthy colleges and together made up 18 percent of a school’s score, including undergraduate class sizes, alumni giving rates and high school class standing.

This year’s formula, which relied more on data sources beyond submissions by schools, also gave less weight to overall graduation rates and financial resources per student, which examines how much, on average, a university spends per student on costs like instruction and research.”

BINGO!! SO the rankings mean even less this year than previously (they didn't mean much then either).

I think undergrad class sizes are a key factor in quality of education---much more learning happens in a class with 25-40 students than a giant lecture hall with 500+.

VT is a good school, excellent for engineering but it is not a "better overall school than W&M"

Where are you getting this trope that classes are 500+? They are not and I actually laughed when I read that. Some intro classes might be 100 or so - as they are in many universities - but as you progress in your major, classes get smaller fast. The student to faculty ratio is 17:1. Here are some more figures:

Class sizes:

20-49 - 46.2%

Classes with fewer than 20 students - 33.3%

50 or more - 20.5%

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/virginia-tech-3754/academics

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven’t been to VT in a long time. Has it changed so much in those years? It was in a rural town and most of what students did for fun was drink and watch sports? My husband transferred out because there was nothing there if that wasn’t your scene. W&M also not exactly in a bustling location but definitely has less of a Greek influence. Unless Tech has changed entirely over those years (and hey maybe it has) these just don’t seem like schools the same kind of student would choose.

VT has less than 20% Greek participation. The vast majority of students there are not Greek, but are involved in the more than 800 clubs. I believe W&M has a higher Greek percentage precisely because there is not much to do there. I think your views of the schools are vastly outdated.

Do you think they attract the same sort of student? Because I know a lot of kids at both, and they really do not. VT is a bit unusual in that it has the engineering and CS kids, who are pretty different than everyone else. And not good candidates for WM. The kids in other fields are different. I’ve seen kids deciding between UVA and WM. And UVA and VT. But not between WM and VT, because these schools have very little academic or social overlap.

I don’t think they attract the same type of students socially, but academically - yes. Engineering is only about 1/3 of the student body at VT. The majority of students there are majoring in other disciplines.

I think the students are quite different academically (with the exception that the VT engineering students are similar to the academic profile of W&M students).

I disagree. At our high school, the top students applied to VT and only some of them got in. Most weren’t going for engineering.