VT ahead of WM in USNews

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:W&M is well past its prime. What does W&M excel in? It doesn’t have any signature programs, and seems to rest on its historical position.

VT has an outstanding Engineering program. And is much more innovative in terms of robotics, automation, agri-business, etc.

W&M needs to determine what its identity will be, other than a small-ish state school that educated a few of the first presidents.

It excels in undergraduate education.

Something the ranking-obsessed parents sometime forget is the point of college.

Education in WHAT? General liberal arts just isn’t enough for W&M. You can do that better elsewhere. They need to bump a few programs up to national-class status. Otherwise, they’re a state school with small class size.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you ask: Does this mean VT has truly overtaken WM in terms of prestige and job opportunities?


Why do you think these rankings have anything to do with either of these things? They quite clearly do not.

Take job opportunity. One measure of that might be earnings 10 years out. Santa Clara is ranked 60 this year, but is ranked 6 for salary 10 years out. Note Dame and WPI are identical for salary 10 years out, but USNWR has them at 20 and 82 this year, but they were 19 and 62 a few years ago.

What does VT passing W&M mean then?

That their campaign to increase DEI and hit 40% URM/ 1st Gen worked. Interestingly, many, many parents on this board complain loudly about that policy and say it overlooks strong students in favor of weak ones. Lot of bitter remarks about it when admissions decisions are released. But, in this case it worked to their benefit.

WM is just not strong onDEI metics. Being small, having a private like atmosphere and being so expensive doesn’t help them. But they also aren’t putting in the type of effort VT has.

So, so you like the new VT policy now? Or still pissed that it might keep your NOVA white/Asian kid out?

hahaha this +10000 SO true. VT alums/parents have been complaining for the last few years about the first gen directive from the president and look what happened? Now your proud?

DP. I haven’t complained about this at all. My white UMC kids had no problem with admittance. Sorry yours weren’t as fortunate, but there’s nothing wrong with helping 1st Gen students. Most of them are white, btw.

of course they had no problem getting in, it has a high acceptance rate.

What a troll. A 57% acceptance rate is hardly "high".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you ask: Does this mean VT has truly overtaken WM in terms of prestige and job opportunities?


Why do you think these rankings have anything to do with either of these things? They quite clearly do not.

Take job opportunity. One measure of that might be earnings 10 years out. Santa Clara is ranked 60 this year, but is ranked 6 for salary 10 years out. Note Dame and WPI are identical for salary 10 years out, but USNWR has them at 20 and 82 this year, but they were 19 and 62 a few years ago.

What does VT passing W&M mean then?

That their campaign to increase DEI and hit 40% URM/ 1st Gen worked. Interestingly, many, many parents on this board complain loudly about that policy and say it overlooks strong students in favor of weak ones. Lot of bitter remarks about it when admissions decisions are released. But, in this case it worked to their benefit.

WM is just not strong onDEI metics. Being small, having a private like atmosphere and being so expensive doesn’t help them. But they also aren’t putting in the type of effort VT has.

So, so you like the new VT policy now? Or still pissed that it might keep your NOVA white/Asian kid out?

hahaha this +10000 SO true. VT alums/parents have been complaining for the last few years about the first gen directive from the president and look what happened? Now your proud?

DP. I haven’t complained about this at all. My white UMC kids had no problem with admittance. Sorry yours weren’t as fortunate, but there’s nothing wrong with helping 1st Gen students. Most of them are white, btw.

of course they had no problem getting in, it has a high acceptance rate.

And yet, we had pages and pages of tantrum-throwing parents whose kids did not get in when they assumed they would. Huh.

Because oddly VT accepts kids with lower stats and yield protects by waitlisting high stats kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you ask: Does this mean VT has truly overtaken WM in terms of prestige and job opportunities?


Why do you think these rankings have anything to do with either of these things? They quite clearly do not.

Take job opportunity. One measure of that might be earnings 10 years out. Santa Clara is ranked 60 this year, but is ranked 6 for salary 10 years out. Note Dame and WPI are identical for salary 10 years out, but USNWR has them at 20 and 82 this year, but they were 19 and 62 a few years ago.

What does VT passing W&M mean then?

That their campaign to increase DEI and hit 40% URM/ 1st Gen worked. Interestingly, many, many parents on this board complain loudly about that policy and say it overlooks strong students in favor of weak ones. Lot of bitter remarks about it when admissions decisions are released. But, in this case it worked to their benefit.

WM is just not strong onDEI metics. Being small, having a private like atmosphere and being so expensive doesn’t help them. But they also aren’t putting in the type of effort VT has.

So, so you like the new VT policy now? Or still pissed that it might keep your NOVA white/Asian kid out?

hahaha this +10000 SO true. VT alums/parents have been complaining for the last few years about the first gen directive from the president and look what happened? Now your proud?

DP. I haven’t complained about this at all. My white UMC kids had no problem with admittance. Sorry yours weren’t as fortunate, but there’s nothing wrong with helping 1st Gen students. Most of them are white, btw.

of course they had no problem getting in, it has a high acceptance rate.

And yet, we had pages and pages of tantrum-throwing parents whose kids did not get in when they assumed they would. Huh.

Because oddly VT accepts kids with lower stats and yield protects by waitlisting high stats kids.

So, exactly what 99% of other colleges do? It's not "odd." It's done by many schools, and doesn't account for the high stats kids who ARE admitted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:W&M is well past its prime. What does W&M excel in? It doesn’t have any signature programs, and seems to rest on its historical position.

VT has an outstanding Engineering program. And is much more innovative in terms of robotics, automation, agri-business, etc.

W&M needs to determine what its identity will be, other than a small-ish state school that educated a few of the first presidents.

It excels in undergraduate education.

Something the ranking-obsessed parents sometime forget is the point of college.

Education in WHAT? General liberal arts just isn’t enough for W&M. You can do that better elsewhere. They need to bump a few programs up to national-class status. Otherwise, they’re a state school with small class size.

I can tell you are not a professor. Some schools place value on quality education (class size, classes being taught by actual professors, lots of one-on-one attention from professors, they are accessible). It is an ethos.

Other places just care about how much money the faculty brings in (i.e. research dollars), football, big name faculty, etc.

Some schools recognize faculty who emphasize being good teachers, and other schools things they are saps.

This is different than having a department that is particularly strong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:W&M is well past its prime. What does W&M excel in? It doesn’t have any signature programs, and seems to rest on its historical position.

VT has an outstanding Engineering program. And is much more innovative in terms of robotics, automation, agri-business, etc.

W&M needs to determine what its identity will be, other than a small-ish state school that educated a few of the first presidents.

As PP said, W&M excels at undergraduate education, which one would think would be important for an undergraduate program assessment. Compared to the public universities USNWR now ranks above it, W&M:

Ranks highest in undergraduate teaching (UWNWR)
Has the best student-to-faculty ratio
Has the highest percentage of undergraduate students living on campus
Has the highest percentage of undergraduate alumni who donate to their Alma Mater
Has the highest percentage of graduates earning Fulbright awards over the last 10 years
Has the highest percentage of graduates earning PhDs and the second highest percentage of graduates earning PhDs in STEM fields
Is tied for first in 4 year graduation rate for Pell Grant students
Has the highest federal graduation rate for student athletes

+1

[Anonymous]

Goodness, the WM parents are salty about their drop in the rankings. You don't have to keep repeating the same things and taking this so personally.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Goodness, the WM parents are salty about their drop in the rankings. You don't have to keep repeating the same things and taking this so personally.

Yeah. I'm sure there haven't been any provocative statements that have precipitated those responses. It is completely one-sided as you say. . .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:US News removed almost 20% of the criteria which caused the significant drop for smaller schools (mostly private) and rise for large publics:

- small class size
- student achievement (top 10% high school class)
- faculties with PhDs
- Alumni givings
- 4 year graduation rate

It has come to a point that there should be two rankings: one for privates and small publics like UVA and W&M that keep the above criteria for academic quality and class size, and one for large publics. They are two very different schools, and there is no point of mixing them together.

Yes, this version of the US News rankings are social mobility rankings, not best schools. That may be relevant to many people but it’s not what most of DCUM looks to rankings for.

Great! I am glad they’re useful to you. But they shouldn’t be confused with the “best college” ranking that US News has tried to sell in previous years. (I think all ratings are useless but people seem to love them).
DP. I find it kind of interesting, actually. Seeing which schools graduate successful students - of all socio-economic stripes - who are prepared to contribute to our society and economy is useful. Those are the kinds of schools I'd want my kids to attend, not some rarefied, precious, ivory tower-type place.

[Anonymous]

NP with VA kid at an OOS college. So, no personal feeling either way.

Hats off to VTech recognizing the trend earlier and increasing their 1st Gen/Pell numbers sooner.
Hats off to W&M to still graduate their 1st Gen/Pell students at a higher rate.

Find what is important to you and your kid and select accordingly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:W&M is well past its prime. What does W&M excel in? It doesn’t have any signature programs, and seems to rest on its historical position.

VT has an outstanding Engineering program. And is much more innovative in terms of robotics, automation, agri-business, etc.

W&M needs to determine what its identity will be, other than a small-ish state school that educated a few of the first presidents.

It excels in undergraduate education.

Something the ranking-obsessed parents sometime forget is the point of college.

Education in WHAT? General liberal arts just isn’t enough for W&M. You can do that better elsewhere. They need to bump a few programs up to national-class status. Otherwise, they’re a state school with small class size.

I can tell you are not a professor. Some schools place value on quality education (class size, classes being taught by actual professors, lots of one-on-one attention from professors, they are accessible). It is an ethos.

Other places just care about how much money the faculty brings in (i.e. research dollars), football, big name faculty, etc.

Some schools recognize faculty who emphasize being good teachers, and other schools things they are saps.

This is different than having a department that is particularly strong.

But WM does have very strong departments. Their school of education is consistently high and often ranked #1 in VA. So are chemistry and (surprisingly) geology, kinsetology, data science and marine science. But we’re they do extraordinarily well is their mix of economics, history, government (which at WM is also politics), IR, global studies (a foreign language like Arabic or Korean or Russian, plus a history, culture, foreign policy mix), public policy and business (this also includes pre-law). And it’s somewhat of a cluster of departments, because there is a lot of double majoring, minoring. And these departments all work together because IR may be their largest major, and it isn’t a department. It requires 4+ classes from each of a modern language, economics, government and history, plus some data science and sociology. Couple that with their St. Andrew’s program in these areas and their Washington Center program, and the fact they often rank #1 among public colleges in study abroad and internships. This is why they are a top Fulbright producer.

That’s where WM shines.

Plus yes, undergrad teaching, which one would think is important to undergrads.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:W&M is well past its prime. What does W&M excel in? It doesn’t have any signature programs, and seems to rest on its historical position.

VT has an outstanding Engineering program. And is much more innovative in terms of robotics, automation, agri-business, etc.

W&M needs to determine what its identity will be, other than a small-ish state school that educated a few of the first presidents.

It excels in undergraduate education.

Something the ranking-obsessed parents sometime forget is the point of college.

Education in WHAT? General liberal arts just isn’t enough for W&M. You can do that better elsewhere. They need to bump a few programs up to national-class status. Otherwise, they’re a state school with small class size.

I can tell you are not a professor. Some schools place value on quality education (class size, classes being taught by actual professors, lots of one-on-one attention from professors, they are accessible). It is an ethos.

Other places just care about how much money the faculty brings in (i.e. research dollars), football, big name faculty, etc.

Some schools recognize faculty who emphasize being good teachers, and other schools things they are saps.

This is different than having a department that is particularly strong.

But WM does have very strong departments. Their school of education is consistently high and often ranked #1 in VA. So are chemistry and (surprisingly) geology, kinsetology, data science and marine science. But we’re they do extraordinarily well is their mix of economics, history, government (which at WM is also politics), IR, global studies (a foreign language like Arabic or Korean or Russian, plus a history, culture, foreign policy mix), public policy and business (this also includes pre-law). And it’s somewhat of a cluster of departments, because there is a lot of double majoring, minoring. And these departments all work together because IR may be their largest major, and it isn’t a department. It requires 4+ classes from each of a modern language, economics, government and history, plus some data science and sociology. Couple that with their St. Andrew’s program in these areas and their Washington Center program, and the fact they often rank #1 among public colleges in study abroad and internships. This is why they are a top Fulbright producer.

That’s where WM shines.

Plus yes, undergrad teaching, which one would think is important to undergrads.

You're becoming almost as annoying as the UVA boosters. Not to mention, several other VA universities have excellent IR/political science departments, critical language requirements, study abroad, majors/minors, etc. etc. I'm not seeing anything unusual about WM. Out of curiosity, I looked up top Fulbright producers and did not see W&M listed as such in the most recent results. I did, however, see JMU as a top producer. Could you point me to your citation?

https://www.fulbrightprogram.org/tpi/?_filter_tpi_type=student&_filter_tpi_year=2022-2023&_filter_tpi_degree=phd

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:W&M is well past its prime. What does W&M excel in? It doesn’t have any signature programs, and seems to rest on its historical position.

VT has an outstanding Engineering program. And is much more innovative in terms of robotics, automation, agri-business, etc.

W&M needs to determine what its identity will be, other than a small-ish state school that educated a few of the first presidents.

It excels in undergraduate education.

Something the ranking-obsessed parents sometime forget is the point of college.

Education in WHAT? General liberal arts just isn’t enough for W&M. You can do that better elsewhere. They need to bump a few programs up to national-class status. Otherwise, they’re a state school with small class size.

I can tell you are not a professor. Some schools place value on quality education (class size, classes being taught by actual professors, lots of one-on-one attention from professors, they are accessible). It is an ethos.

Other places just care about how much money the faculty brings in (i.e. research dollars), football, big name faculty, etc.

Some schools recognize faculty who emphasize being good teachers, and other schools things they are saps.

This is different than having a department that is particularly strong.

But WM does have very strong departments. Their school of education is consistently high and often ranked #1 in VA. So are chemistry and (surprisingly) geology, kinsetology, data science and marine science. But we’re they do extraordinarily well is their mix of economics, history, government (which at WM is also politics), IR, global studies (a foreign language like Arabic or Korean or Russian, plus a history, culture, foreign policy mix), public policy and business (this also includes pre-law). And it’s somewhat of a cluster of departments, because there is a lot of double majoring, minoring. And these departments all work together because IR may be their largest major, and it isn’t a department. It requires 4+ classes from each of a modern language, economics, government and history, plus some data science and sociology. Couple that with their St. Andrew’s program in these areas and their Washington Center program, and the fact they often rank #1 among public colleges in study abroad and internships. This is why they are a top Fulbright producer.

That’s where WM shines.

Plus yes, undergrad teaching, which one would think is important to undergrads.

You're becoming almost as annoying as the UVA boosters. Not to mention, several other VA universities have excellent IR/political science departments, critical language requirements, study abroad, majors/minors, etc. etc. I'm not seeing anything unusual about WM. Out of curiosity, I looked up top Fulbright producers and did not see W&M listed as such in the most recent results. I did, however, see JMU as a top producer. Could you point me to your citation?

https://www.fulbrightprogram.org/tpi/?_filter_tpi_type=student&_filter_tpi_year=2022-2023&_filter_tpi_degree=phd

Do you understand that W&M is much smaller than JMU?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:W&M is well past its prime. What does W&M excel in? It doesn’t have any signature programs, and seems to rest on its historical position.

VT has an outstanding Engineering program. And is much more innovative in terms of robotics, automation, agri-business, etc.

W&M needs to determine what its identity will be, other than a small-ish state school that educated a few of the first presidents.

It excels in undergraduate education.

Something the ranking-obsessed parents sometime forget is the point of college.

Education in WHAT? General liberal arts just isn’t enough for W&M. You can do that better elsewhere. They need to bump a few programs up to national-class status. Otherwise, they’re a state school with small class size.

I can tell you are not a professor. Some schools place value on quality education (class size, classes being taught by actual professors, lots of one-on-one attention from professors, they are accessible). It is an ethos.

Other places just care about how much money the faculty brings in (i.e. research dollars), football, big name faculty, etc.

Some schools recognize faculty who emphasize being good teachers, and other schools things they are saps.

This is different than having a department that is particularly strong.

But WM does have very strong departments. Their school of education is consistently high and often ranked #1 in VA. So are chemistry and (surprisingly) geology, kinsetology, data science and marine science. But we’re they do extraordinarily well is their mix of economics, history, government (which at WM is also politics), IR, global studies (a foreign language like Arabic or Korean or Russian, plus a history, culture, foreign policy mix), public policy and business (this also includes pre-law). And it’s somewhat of a cluster of departments, because there is a lot of double majoring, minoring. And these departments all work together because IR may be their largest major, and it isn’t a department. It requires 4+ classes from each of a modern language, economics, government and history, plus some data science and sociology. Couple that with their St. Andrew’s program in these areas and their Washington Center program, and the fact they often rank #1 among public colleges in study abroad and internships. This is why they are a top Fulbright producer.

That’s where WM shines.

Plus yes, undergrad teaching, which one would think is important to undergrads.

You're becoming almost as annoying as the UVA boosters. Not to mention, several other VA universities have excellent IR/political science departments, critical language requirements, study abroad, majors/minors, etc. etc. I'm not seeing anything unusual about WM. Out of curiosity, I looked up top Fulbright producers and did not see W&M listed as such in the most recent results. I did, however, see JMU as a top producer. Could you point me to your citation?

https://www.fulbrightprogram.org/tpi/?_filter_tpi_type=student&_filter_tpi_year=2022-2023&_filter_tpi_degree=phd

Sign. Per capita.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:W&M is well past its prime. What does W&M excel in? It doesn’t have any signature programs, and seems to rest on its historical position.

VT has an outstanding Engineering program. And is much more innovative in terms of robotics, automation, agri-business, etc.

W&M needs to determine what its identity will be, other than a small-ish state school that educated a few of the first presidents.

It excels in undergraduate education.

Something the ranking-obsessed parents sometime forget is the point of college.

Education in WHAT? General liberal arts just isn’t enough for W&M. You can do that better elsewhere. They need to bump a few programs up to national-class status. Otherwise, they’re a state school with small class size.

I can tell you are not a professor. Some schools place value on quality education (class size, classes being taught by actual professors, lots of one-on-one attention from professors, they are accessible). It is an ethos.

Other places just care about how much money the faculty brings in (i.e. research dollars), football, big name faculty, etc.

Some schools recognize faculty who emphasize being good teachers, and other schools things they are saps.

This is different than having a department that is particularly strong.

But WM does have very strong departments. Their school of education is consistently high and often ranked #1 in VA. So are chemistry and (surprisingly) geology, kinsetology, data science and marine science. But we’re they do extraordinarily well is their mix of economics, history, government (which at WM is also politics), IR, global studies (a foreign language like Arabic or Korean or Russian, plus a history, culture, foreign policy mix), public policy and business (this also includes pre-law). And it’s somewhat of a cluster of departments, because there is a lot of double majoring, minoring. And these departments all work together because IR may be their largest major, and it isn’t a department. It requires 4+ classes from each of a modern language, economics, government and history, plus some data science and sociology. Couple that with their St. Andrew’s program in these areas and their Washington Center program, and the fact they often rank #1 among public colleges in study abroad and internships. This is why they are a top Fulbright producer.

That’s where WM shines.

Plus yes, undergrad teaching, which one would think is important to undergrads.

You're becoming almost as annoying as the UVA boosters. Not to mention, several other VA universities have excellent IR/political science departments, critical language requirements, study abroad, majors/minors, etc. etc. I'm not seeing anything unusual about WM. Out of curiosity, I looked up top Fulbright producers and did not see W&M listed as such in the most recent results. I did, however, see JMU as a top producer. Could you point me to your citation?

https://www.fulbrightprogram.org/tpi/?_filter_tpi_type=student&_filter_tpi_year=2022-2023&_filter_tpi_degree=phd

You asked what specific departments at WM were strong. Several times. Insisted being strong all around in liberal arts was not enough. You were told. It looks like WM is ranked 16th in the World (not just the US), in undergrad IR.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/02/20/top-fifty-schools-international-relations-foreign-policy/

Also, best public internships, best public study abroad, top undergrad teaching.

And now you’re upset someone answered your question?

Go to bed. You’ve obviously had a long day.