Replicating ATS success — what are exact differences

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most of these differences only work with home support.

Summer reading...home support.

The instrument...home support.

The dress code...home support.

The homework...home support. Let's be real any homework before about 3rd or 4th grade is a group project with you and your kid.

People discounting what a difference it makes to have a student body filled 100 percent with parents who were motivated and interested enough to get the kids there are just naive.

Sure. A lot but not all of our elementaries have some of these things. Summer reading, homework, band take some level of parent buy in. I also think more but not all parents would ask their kids do these things if it was expected of them.

And why not weekly progress reports sent home to parents? That doesn’t require parent participation but more parents would know how their kid was doing. It opens the door to regular communication.

This. When it's required, they participate.
I don't care about weekly progress reports unless there's an ongoing problem. But if parents find them helpful, fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really need to stop reading the APS threads. They literally raise my blood pressure. You all are completely out of controlled. Obsessed really is the operative word. You will find out soon enough that you are all wasting your energy on meaningless differences between the elementary schools in Arlington - including ATS - in the long run. No matter which school your kids attend, they’re gonna be just fine - because they have to totally stressed out weirdos as parents.

I take it your kid has never been in a bad school. We did one South Arlington school (violence, multiple kids on behavior plans in every class, stressed out teachers, overcrowding) and ATS. It was night and day. The school refusal and headaches stopped. They were so happy every day.

Name the school.

DP. None of your business. It doesn't matter. Poster is sharing their experience. Absolutely does not matter which SA school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really need to stop reading the APS threads. They literally raise my blood pressure. You all are completely out of controlled. Obsessed really is the operative word. You will find out soon enough that you are all wasting your energy on meaningless differences between the elementary schools in Arlington - including ATS - in the long run. No matter which school your kids attend, they’re gonna be just fine - because they have to totally stressed out weirdos as parents.

I take it your kid has never been in a bad school. We did one South Arlington school (violence, multiple kids on behavior plans in every class, stressed out teachers, overcrowding) and ATS. It was night and day. The school refusal and headaches stopped. They were so happy every day.

Name the school.

You can figure it out. There aren’t that many non-option overcrowded elementary schools in SA. it doesn’t really matter anyway. My friends who have kids at neighboring schools experienced the same

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do you feel your principal should hear your suggestions? Are you an educational consultant? Do you have a college degree in this field?
This type of feedback is out of turn. You have no idea what constraints the principal has.

DP. ATS has erased the achievement gap according to previous posts. Why shouldn't parents go to principals and ask would ATS's practices work here?

Veteran teachers at our school don't know anything about ATS. I asked last year after reading about it. They said they don't know much about it.

You think the principal is just sitting around twiddling their thumbs and waiting on a random parent to ask these questions? They’re already working hard, trying to get the best outcomes they can. They will never be ATS because
-they have some population of parents that can’t get their kids to school reliably. Not a factor at ATS
-they have some population of parents who do not care when their kid is disciplined. In fact they push back. Parents at ATS, just by participating in a lottery to get in, are the types who would take behavior seriously.
-they have parents who would never be on board with homework or a dress code (both, IMO, are part of the secret sauce). And forget summer homework
-they have lots of students with leaning disabilities, which affects test scores and how the school appears to be performing (because we all know kids with a lot of special need transfer from ATS when that becomes apparent and it’s not their strong suit)

So insulting to go to a principal and suggest they just try to be like ATS

I guess I don’t understand why it matters if some parents can’t reliably get their kids to school and won’t supervise homework. Some of those kids would benefit from the structure that their parents can’t or won’t provide. Raise the expectations and standards at the schools and let the chips fall where they may.

+100

This is basically the George W Bush era thinking of "the soft bigotry of low expectations". I think it is compelling logic on paper. It's what drove No Child Left Behind, which we still see the impacts of right now. Regular testing and dis-aggregated data exist because of NCLB.

The chips falling where they may is a bit trickier You know where they will fall, but it won't be your kid, which is why you don't care. Kids without home support in that type of environment show up in a different place on Day 1. They show up behind. They fall further and further behind over time. I work in a private school and in education. I see it every day. Sometimes the school environment really just isn't going to do it even if the school is doing everything possible to both prop the kid up and set high expectations.

The question then is are these "lowered standards" REALLY harming your kid. Are they even lowered standards? A lot of this is what you're used to and what you grew up with and also some amount of hysteria about what is going on that isn't even true, to be honest. I see constant misrepresentation on this site about APS's homework and test re-take policies. The data bears out your typical high-income white kid will do about the same in most environments in terms of academic achievement.

When high school English classes don't even require their students to read books, it is absolutely a lower standard and absolutely negatively impacts them. Not so much because they may never read Dickens; but because they are not being pushed and challenged.

I base this not just on my own high school classes; but on my kids' comments, reactions, and level of engagement in their classes. When the students complain that they aren't doing anything in class, that is lowered standards and negatively impactful. If a student acknowledges the lack of expectations or challenge, that is lowered expectations.

These things are a disservice to ALL students. I'm sick of people telling me my white middle class kid will be fine and do just as well no matter which school they go to. I want my kids to be challenged, preferably inspired in some area. I want them to acquire and appreciate the value of working hard and achieving. I expect schools to want the same and to focus on making sure every student strives to achieve their personal potential, not just meet basic standards.

And yes, this is focused on the older grades. I don't think homework or no homework in elementary sets the destiny dial on success or failure. But the attitude and philosophy should be at all levels of education. It isn't just about UMC white kids.

To be blunt, I find this weird. I have two kids in APS high school and of course they read books. They read books in middle school before there was even any tracking. What school and what type of English class is this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really need to stop reading the APS threads. They literally raise my blood pressure. You all are completely out of controlled. Obsessed really is the operative word. You will find out soon enough that you are all wasting your energy on meaningless differences between the elementary schools in Arlington - including ATS - in the long run. No matter which school your kids attend, they’re gonna be just fine - because they have to totally stressed out weirdos as parents.

I take it your kid has never been in a bad school. We did one South Arlington school (violence, multiple kids on behavior plans in every class, stressed out teachers, overcrowding) and ATS. It was night and day. The school refusal and headaches stopped. They were so happy every day.

Name the school.

DP. None of your business. It doesn't matter. Poster is sharing their experience. Absolutely does not matter which SA school.

Sure it matters. “Violence” in an Arlington elementary school? Really? I call bullshit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most of these differences only work with home support.

Summer reading...home support.

The instrument...home support.

The dress code...home support.

The homework...home support. Let's be real any homework before about 3rd or 4th grade is a group project with you and your kid.

People discounting what a difference it makes to have a student body filled 100 percent with parents who were motivated and interested enough to get the kids there are just naive.

Sure. A lot but not all of our elementaries have some of these things. Summer reading, homework, band take some level of parent buy in. I also think more but not all parents would ask their kids do these things if it was expected of them.

And why not weekly progress reports sent home to parents? That doesn’t require parent participation but more parents would know how their kid was doing. It opens the door to regular communication.

Teachers are not going to have time for this because they deal with a higher load of discipline and SN kids than ATS (since SN kids who struggle leave ATS for a school without homework)

My SN kid got fantastic support at ATS, so you dont speak to my families experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really need to stop reading the APS threads. They literally raise my blood pressure. You all are completely out of controlled. Obsessed really is the operative word. You will find out soon enough that you are all wasting your energy on meaningless differences between the elementary schools in Arlington - including ATS - in the long run. No matter which school your kids attend, they’re gonna be just fine - because they have to totally stressed out weirdos as parents.

I take it your kid has never been in a bad school. We did one South Arlington school (violence, multiple kids on behavior plans in every class, stressed out teachers, overcrowding) and ATS. It was night and day. The school refusal and headaches stopped. They were so happy every day.

Name the school.

DP. None of your business. It doesn't matter. Poster is sharing their experience. Absolutely does not matter which SA school.

Sure it matters. “Violence” in an Arlington elementary school? Really? I call bullshit.

Same. I am in SA. I know kids at just about all the schools and the one thing I hear is how happy everyone is. Maybe some of them read this forum and we’re convinced some schools would be a mess. Barcroft, Randolph, Drew, Abingdon all have incredibly happy, content communities. The ONLY people who want to shred these schools are people posting anonymously on this site.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really need to stop reading the APS threads. They literally raise my blood pressure. You all are completely out of controlled. Obsessed really is the operative word. You will find out soon enough that you are all wasting your energy on meaningless differences between the elementary schools in Arlington - including ATS - in the long run. No matter which school your kids attend, they’re gonna be just fine - because they have to totally stressed out weirdos as parents.

I take it your kid has never been in a bad school. We did one South Arlington school (violence, multiple kids on behavior plans in every class, stressed out teachers, overcrowding) and ATS. It was night and day. The school refusal and headaches stopped. They were so happy every day.

Name the school.

Not PP but I bet you it’s Oakridge. The stories coming from there are horrendous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So I’m looking for a concrete plan to take to our principal.

1) direct instruction. Where is the inquiry instruction policy set by APS?

2) homework

3) tucked in shirts

4) high academic expectations? So I ask them why they currently have low expectations?

5) disciple expectations? See above?

Any more?

The biggest predictor of academic success is parental involvement. And ATS has 100% from every family.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One big difference is parents who are involved and motivated enough to seek a slot at ATS. Your principal can’t do anything about that one.

Sure but that can’t be only factor?

It’s the largest contributing factor. Like 90% of the pie.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Get the book On Purpose: How Great Schools From Strong Character. An entire chapter on ATS.

ATS has a unique culture going back over 40 years. Every teacher and family has chosen to be there. They tell you that at every BTS night. Teachers send their kids there if they can, former ATS students come back and teach there. Former teachers come back and volunteer there.

Other APS schools could do some of what makes ATS unique and some similar things.

Some schools have a model project but ATS has the ABCs which means a focus on academics, behavior and character. Kids learn this from day one and can tell you what the ABCs are and what they mean. They teach and reinforce the 6 pillars of citizenship and all of these messages are everywhere in the school.

Like other APS schools, they have unique parties and traditions. People think it's some test prep school and no one has fun. We already have the schedule of school parties for the year and my kids can't wait to go to the fall festival.

Everyone focuses on the homework and tucked-in shirts. But the school builds teacher relationships and school community from day 1 to set every kid up for academic success.

So does every other elementary school in the system. This is NOT what sets ATS apart.
Every school in Arlington will say they have and set high expectations for all of its students. This is NOT what sets ATS apart.
Each school in APS has its "unique" traditions and parties. This is NOT what sets ATS apart.
Each school my children have attended, regardless of model project, discuss and emphasize character, community, and academic success. This is NOT what sets ATS apart.

I don't know what specific thing it is that does set it apart; my kids didn't attend and I don't have direct experience. But I don't buy the "self-selection" argument. From my conversations with ATS parents I've known over the years, I think the "secret sauce" ingredients include:

1. holding every single student to the SAME HIGH standard - not a standard or goal individualized to each child. They believe and expect every student can and will meet those standards.

2. expecting and extracting each student's best efforts and best work - with those highest expectations and standards as the goal

3. every student taking up a musical instrument (music and brain development....scientific credibility, folks; as well as expanded opportunity or exposure v. schools where it's optional)

4. and apparently instructional methods employed, per AEM and DCUM commentaries (not shifting with the winds, sticking with something when it works)

Here's one example of a significant difference from many years ago, OP:
The summer reading program/goals at our kids' elementary school was 10 books. Summer reading expectations at ATS was (oh shoot, I forget if it was 25 or 50! someone else here surely knows?) Regardless, it was MORE THAN DOUBLE our school's. And the "reward" for the students meeting the goal at our school was a cookie party. At ATS, it was a field trip to the zoo. While it may have been a challenge for some kids to read ten books, it was nothing for most of the kids who actually did it. They were not significantly challenging those kids.

Which brings us to another key difference between ATS and at least many of our other elementary schools:
5. demographics and resources

Yes, yes, I know ATS has many low-income students and a diverse student body. But it is not the low-income levels of our Title I schools and is not the same level of ELL as those schools in particular.

OP, I agree with others that taking this to your principal is a bad idea. This is something that people need to start pushing at Central office.

I am wholeheartedly opposed to merely establishing a second ATS. Every school does not need to be ATS. Every school just needs to be as academically engaging as ATS at least seems to be. The biggest issue I have with the schools my kids have attended is the watering down of expectations, the lower level of intensity (versus what people describe at ATS). Students meeting expectations is "good enough" and they are not necessarily pushed (in general by the school - perhaps by some individual teachers) to push themselves beyond that. Again, I think this is a bigger issue at the highest FRL/ELL schools because the school's primary need is to get every student on grade level and they have far more students who need far more focus to get them there in the same amount of time.

I'll add another one in the what distinguished ATS column:
6. Dress codes. People believe them to be sexist and racist. I don't think shirts have to be tucked in; but why is it sexist to require every student to have their butts and mid-sections covered? I'll be put in the sexist camp, but I don't think young girls need to have a lot of cleavage showing either. Not because it's their fault if some boy gets excited or assaults her; but because it is clearly unnecessary and inappropriate in the school setting. I'm not buying the "individual expression and proud of my body" crap. Teen girls are dressing the way they do specifically for the attention, whether from their friends or from the boys. And boys don't need to have their pants hanging off their asses either.

Regardless of all of that, a real dress code (uniforms in particular) contribute to better focus on the purpose at hand: school. They take away other distracting nonsense and instill a sense of discipline and school pride. Dress codes don't have to be overly restrictive and can still allow for individual expression.

Ok, so they raise expectations and standards at all elementary schools. What happens when kids don’t meet them? You know, the kids who don’t have parents in their corner pushing them in the right direction?

Again, it comes down to parental involvement. A school can ask kids to read 100 books over the summer, but unless parents are checking in on them to make sure they’re doing it…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our neighbors left ATS because they said it was not a good school for their kid who had special needs.

Neighborhood schools ( not all, but many) do a better job with that.

Right. Because ATS is a choice school.

Because it's a self selecting group, that's about 75% of the success right there.

More than 75% I think. Probably 90%. There are some things that can be replicated, but you aren’t going to be able to fix the main ingredient for ATS’s success in narrowing the achievement gap.

If self-selection is the achievement gap fixer, why don't the other choice programs have the same effect?

These families aren’t necessarily selecting for the same things. Some choosing challenging academics, some looking for other things (language immersion, etc). I know Campbell families who are very anti-homework. These groups aren’t the same.

So yes, involved parents. But a *certain kind* of involved. ATS parents have high expectations when it comes to academics and behavior.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do you feel your principal should hear your suggestions? Are you an educational consultant? Do you have a college degree in this field?
This type of feedback is out of turn. You have no idea what constraints the principal has.

DP. ATS has erased the achievement gap according to previous posts. Why shouldn't parents go to principals and ask would ATS's practices work here?

Veteran teachers at our school don't know anything about ATS. I asked last year after reading about it. They said they don't know much about it.

You think the principal is just sitting around twiddling their thumbs and waiting on a random parent to ask these questions? They’re already working hard, trying to get the best outcomes they can. They will never be ATS because
-they have some population of parents that can’t get their kids to school reliably. Not a factor at ATS
-they have some population of parents who do not care when their kid is disciplined. In fact they push back. Parents at ATS, just by participating in a lottery to get in, are the types who would take behavior seriously.
-they have parents who would never be on board with homework or a dress code (both, IMO, are part of the secret sauce). And forget summer homework
-they have lots of students with leaning disabilities, which affects test scores and how the school appears to be performing (because we all know kids with a lot of special need transfer from ATS when that becomes apparent and it’s not their strong suit)

So insulting to go to a principal and suggest they just try to be like ATS

I guess I don’t understand why it matters if some parents can’t reliably get their kids to school and won’t supervise homework. Some of those kids would benefit from the structure that their parents can’t or won’t provide. Raise the expectations and standards at the schools and let the chips fall where they may.

That sounds great in theory, until the historically marginalized groups are disproportionately represented in the group that’s failing to meet those raised expectations.

We need a cultural shift. We need people to value education. And decorum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Expectations and standards need to be raised in all APS schools. It should not matter where the school is located or who attends. Parent participation shouldn't be looked at and then standards be set. Our kids deserve it!

It’s not parent participation. It’s lack of parental IDGAF.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One big difference is parents who are involved and motivated enough to seek a slot at ATS. Your principal can’t do anything about that one.

Sure but that can’t be only factor?

It’s the largest contributing factor. Like 90% of the pie.

OK. Clearly the ATS parents want the credit for their kids' and their school's success. So, yes, absolutely, it is entirely due to the parents who put in for the lottery and accept the slots. Entirely. Not 90%. Because without these specific fabulous parents being involved, the administration might implement instructional changes that they make the other neighborhood schools do. So, KUDOS to you parents!!!