Replicating ATS success — what are exact differences

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our neighbors left ATS because they said it was not a good school for their kid who had special needs.

Neighborhood schools ( not all, but many) do a better job with that.

Right. Because ATS is a choice school.

Because it's a self selecting group, that's about 75% of the success right there.

More than 75% I think. Probably 90%. There are some things that can be replicated, but you aren’t going to be able to fix the main ingredient for ATS’s success in narrowing the achievement gap.

If self-selection is the achievement gap fixer, why don't the other choice programs have the same effect?

No one can answer this. Why isn't APS interested in the question? Campbell is theoretically the most different from ATS so maybe that attracts a different kind of parent. But that's probably less true for immersion and Montessori compared with ATS. And Montessori has good practices that should reduce the achievement gap.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Get the book On Purpose: How Great Schools From Strong Character. An entire chapter on ATS.

ATS has a unique culture going back over 40 years. Every teacher and family has chosen to be there. They tell you that at every BTS night. Teachers send their kids there if they can, former ATS students come back and teach there. Former teachers come back and volunteer there.

Other APS schools could do some of what makes ATS unique and some similar things.

Some schools have a model project but ATS has the ABCs which means a focus on academics, behavior and character. Kids learn this from day one and can tell you what the ABCs are and what they mean. They teach and reinforce the 6 pillars of citizenship and all of these messages are everywhere in the school.

Like other APS schools, they have unique parties and traditions. People think it's some test prep school and no one has fun. We already have the schedule of school parties for the year and my kids can't wait to go to the fall festival.

Everyone focuses on the homework and tucked-in shirts. But the school builds teacher relationships and school community from day 1 to set every kid up for academic success.

So does every other elementary school in the system. This is NOT what sets ATS apart.
Every school in Arlington will say they have and set high expectations for all of its students. This is NOT what sets ATS apart.
Each school in APS has its "unique" traditions and parties. This is NOT what sets ATS apart.
Each school my children have attended, regardless of model project, discuss and emphasize character, community, and academic success. This is NOT what sets ATS apart.

I don't know what specific thing it is that does set it apart; my kids didn't attend and I don't have direct experience. But I don't buy the "self-selection" argument. From my conversations with ATS parents I've known over the years, I think the "secret sauce" ingredients include:

1. holding every single student to the SAME HIGH standard - not a standard or goal individualized to each child. They believe and expect every student can and will meet those standards.

2. expecting and extracting each student's best efforts and best work - with those highest expectations and standards as the goal

3. every student taking up a musical instrument (music and brain development....scientific credibility, folks; as well as expanded opportunity or exposure v. schools where it's optional)

4. and apparently instructional methods employed, per AEM and DCUM commentaries (not shifting with the winds, sticking with something when it works)

Here's one example of a significant difference from many years ago, OP:
The summer reading program/goals at our kids' elementary school was 10 books. Summer reading expectations at ATS was (oh shoot, I forget if it was 25 or 50! someone else here surely knows?) Regardless, it was MORE THAN DOUBLE our school's. And the "reward" for the students meeting the goal at our school was a cookie party. At ATS, it was a field trip to the zoo. While it may have been a challenge for some kids to read ten books, it was nothing for most of the kids who actually did it. They were not significantly challenging those kids.

Which brings us to another key difference between ATS and at least many of our other elementary schools:
5. demographics and resources

Yes, yes, I know ATS has many low-income students and a diverse student body. But it is not the low-income levels of our Title I schools and is not the same level of ELL as those schools in particular.

OP, I agree with others that taking this to your principal is a bad idea. This is something that people need to start pushing at Central office.

I am wholeheartedly opposed to merely establishing a second ATS. Every school does not need to be ATS. Every school just needs to be as academically engaging as ATS at least seems to be. The biggest issue I have with the schools my kids have attended is the watering down of expectations, the lower level of intensity (versus what people describe at ATS). Students meeting expectations is "good enough" and they are not necessarily pushed (in general by the school - perhaps by some individual teachers) to push themselves beyond that. Again, I think this is a bigger issue at the highest FRL/ELL schools because the school's primary need is to get every student on grade level and they have far more students who need far more focus to get them there in the same amount of time.

I'll add another one in the what distinguished ATS column:
6. Dress codes. People believe them to be sexist and racist. I don't think shirts have to be tucked in; but why is it sexist to require every student to have their butts and mid-sections covered? I'll be put in the sexist camp, but I don't think young girls need to have a lot of cleavage showing either. Not because it's their fault if some boy gets excited or assaults her; but because it is clearly unnecessary and inappropriate in the school setting. I'm not buying the "individual expression and proud of my body" crap. Teen girls are dressing the way they do specifically for the attention, whether from their friends or from the boys. And boys don't need to have their pants hanging off their asses either.

Regardless of all of that, a real dress code (uniforms in particular) contribute to better focus on the purpose at hand: school. They take away other distracting nonsense and instill a sense of discipline and school pride. Dress codes don't have to be overly restrictive and can still allow for individual expression.

PP. I shared those points because everyone always has this idea that ATS is some factory churning out reading and math robots. But honestly, it's just "school." Our neighborhood school had great events, loving teachers, orchestra starting in 4th and we didn't lose that when we went to ATS. But we gained the weekly reports, homework, high expectations for reading and behavior and other things. Nothing is by accident at ATS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do you feel your principal should hear your suggestions? Are you an educational consultant? Do you have a college degree in this field?
This type of feedback is out of turn. You have no idea what constraints the principal has.

DP. ATS has erased the achievement gap according to previous posts. Why shouldn't parents go to principals and ask would ATS's practices work here?

Veteran teachers at our school don't know anything about ATS. I asked last year after reading about it. They said they don't know much about it.

You think the principal is just sitting around twiddling their thumbs and waiting on a random parent to ask these questions? They’re already working hard, trying to get the best outcomes they can. They will never be ATS because
-they have some population of parents that can’t get their kids to school reliably. Not a factor at ATS
-they have some population of parents who do not care when their kid is disciplined. In fact they push back. Parents at ATS, just by participating in a lottery to get in, are the types who would take behavior seriously.
-they have parents who would never be on board with homework or a dress code (both, IMO, are part of the secret sauce). And forget summer homework
-they have lots of students with leaning disabilities, which affects test scores and how the school appears to be performing (because we all know kids with a lot of special need transfer from ATS when that becomes apparent and it’s not their strong suit)

So insulting to go to a principal and suggest they just try to be like ATS

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do you feel your principal should hear your suggestions? Are you an educational consultant? Do you have a college degree in this field?
This type of feedback is out of turn. You have no idea what constraints the principal has.

DP. ATS has erased the achievement gap according to previous posts. Why shouldn't parents go to principals and ask would ATS's practices work here?

Veteran teachers at our school don't know anything about ATS. I asked last year after reading about it. They said they don't know much about it.

You think the principal is just sitting around twiddling their thumbs and waiting on a random parent to ask these questions? They’re already working hard, trying to get the best outcomes they can. They will never be ATS because
-they have some population of parents that can’t get their kids to school reliably. Not a factor at ATS
-they have some population of parents who do not care when their kid is disciplined. In fact they push back. Parents at ATS, just by participating in a lottery to get in, are the types who would take behavior seriously.
-they have parents who would never be on board with homework or a dress code (both, IMO, are part of the secret sauce). And forget summer homework
-they have lots of students with leaning disabilities, which affects test scores and how the school appears to be performing (because we all know kids with a lot of special need transfer from ATS when that becomes apparent and it’s not their strong suit)

So insulting to go to a principal and suggest they just try to be like ATS

I guess I don’t understand why it matters if some parents can’t reliably get their kids to school and won’t supervise homework. Some of those kids would benefit from the structure that their parents can’t or won’t provide. Raise the expectations and standards at the schools and let the chips fall where they may.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our neighbors left ATS because they said it was not a good school for their kid who had special needs.

Neighborhood schools ( not all, but many) do a better job with that.

Right. Because ATS is a choice school.

Because it's a self selecting group, that's about 75% of the success right there.

More than 75% I think. Probably 90%. There are some things that can be replicated, but you aren’t going to be able to fix the main ingredient for ATS’s success in narrowing the achievement gap.

If self-selection is the achievement gap fixer, why don't the other choice programs have the same effect?

This right here! It is way more than just "self-selection" and "parent involvement".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do you feel your principal should hear your suggestions? Are you an educational consultant? Do you have a college degree in this field?
This type of feedback is out of turn. You have no idea what constraints the principal has.

DP. ATS has erased the achievement gap according to previous posts. Why shouldn't parents go to principals and ask would ATS's practices work here?

Veteran teachers at our school don't know anything about ATS. I asked last year after reading about it. They said they don't know much about it.

You think the principal is just sitting around twiddling their thumbs and waiting on a random parent to ask these questions? They’re already working hard, trying to get the best outcomes they can. They will never be ATS because
-they have some population of parents that can’t get their kids to school reliably. Not a factor at ATS
-they have some population of parents who do not care when their kid is disciplined. In fact they push back. Parents at ATS, just by participating in a lottery to get in, are the types who would take behavior seriously.
-they have parents who would never be on board with homework or a dress code (both, IMO, are part of the secret sauce). And forget summer homework
-they have lots of students with leaning disabilities, which affects test scores and how the school appears to be performing (because we all know kids with a lot of special need transfer from ATS when that becomes apparent and it’s not their strong suit)

So insulting to go to a principal and suggest they just try to be like ATS [/quote

I guess I don’t understand why it matters if some parents can’t reliably get their kids to school and won’t supervise homework. Some of those kids would benefit from the structure that their parents can’t or won’t provide. Raise the expectations and standards at the schools and let the chips fall where they may.

Really? You don't understand why kids who don't have high attendance and supportive help at home do better? It's really not even close. You can't raise the standards at school (whatever that means) if the parents aren't on board. Look at how these boards freak out over homework in elementary school and going to Back To School nights.

[Anonymous]

Expectations and standards need to be raised in all APS schools. It should not matter where the school is located or who attends. Parent participation shouldn't be looked at and then standards be set. Our kids deserve it!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our neighbors left ATS because they said it was not a good school for their kid who had special needs.

Neighborhood schools ( not all, but many) do a better job with that.

Right. Because ATS is a choice school.

Because it's a self selecting group, that's about 75% of the success right there.

More than 75% I think. Probably 90%. There are some things that can be replicated, but you aren’t going to be able to fix the main ingredient for ATS’s success in narrowing the achievement gap.

If self-selection is the achievement gap fixer, why don't the other choice programs have the same effect?

No one can answer this. Why isn't APS interested in the question? Campbell is theoretically the most different from ATS so maybe that attracts a different kind of parent. But that's probably less true for immersion and Montessori compared with ATS. And Montessori has good practices that should reduce the achievement gap.

There is some answer. Campbell attracts a lot of kods with ADHD, learning disorders, etc. That is going to have an impact on that scores (since I assume what we are basing ATS success on).

Immersion teachers 3 of the SOL teat subjects in a different language than the teat is given in..Immersion families and parents are very different and have very different education philosophies than ATS. at least at my Immersion schools no HW is very supported. There are other reasons I am sure but the population is just different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do you feel your principal should hear your suggestions? Are you an educational consultant? Do you have a college degree in this field?
This type of feedback is out of turn. You have no idea what constraints the principal has.

DP. ATS has erased the achievement gap according to previous posts. Why shouldn't parents go to principals and ask would ATS's practices work here?

Veteran teachers at our school don't know anything about ATS. I asked last year after reading about it. They said they don't know much about it.

You think the principal is just sitting around twiddling their thumbs and waiting on a random parent to ask these questions? They’re already working hard, trying to get the best outcomes they can. They will never be ATS because
-they have some population of parents that can’t get their kids to school reliably. Not a factor at ATS
-they have some population of parents who do not care when their kid is disciplined. In fact they push back. Parents at ATS, just by participating in a lottery to get in, are the types who would take behavior seriously.
-they have parents who would never be on board with homework or a dress code (both, IMO, are part of the secret sauce). And forget summer homework
-they have lots of students with leaning disabilities, which affects test scores and how the school appears to be performing (because we all know kids with a lot of special need transfer from ATS when that becomes apparent and it’s not their strong suit)

So insulting to go to a principal and suggest they just try to be like ATS [/quote

I guess I don’t understand why it matters if some parents can’t reliably get their kids to school and won’t supervise homework. Some of those kids would benefit from the structure that their parents can’t or won’t provide. Raise the expectations and standards at the schools and let the chips fall where they may.

Really? You don't understand why kids who don't have high attendance and supportive help at home do better? It's really not even close. You can't raise the standards at school (whatever that means) if the parents aren't on board. Look at how these boards freak out over homework in elementary school and going to Back To School nights.

In my experience when the bar is raised people often meet it or at least try to meet it. We are not raising the bar in some situations so why would you get more participation and support from families. APS is doing us all a disservice.

[Anonymous]

Is there as long of a wait to get in at Montessori, Immersion and Campbell as there is at ATS?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Expectations and standards need to be raised in all APS schools. It should not matter where the school is located or who attends. Parent participation shouldn't be looked at and then standards be set. Our kids deserve it!

Agree with this!! This dropping of standards is a problem in Arlington.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our neighbors left ATS because they said it was not a good school for their kid who had special needs.

Neighborhood schools ( not all, but many) do a better job with that.

Right. Because ATS is a choice school.

Because it's a self selecting group, that's about 75% of the success right there.

More than 75% I think. Probably 90%. There are some things that can be replicated, but you aren’t going to be able to fix the main ingredient for ATS’s success in narrowing the achievement gap.

If self-selection is the achievement gap fixer, why don't the other choice programs have the same effect?

No one can answer this. Why isn't APS interested in the question? Campbell is theoretically the most different from ATS so maybe that attracts a different kind of parent. But that's probably less true for immersion and Montessori compared with ATS. And Montessori has good practices that should reduce the achievement gap.

There is some answer. Campbell attracts a lot of kods with ADHD, learning disorders, etc. That is going to have an impact on that scores (since I assume what we are basing ATS success on).

Immersion teachers 3 of the SOL teat subjects in a different language than the teat is given in..Immersion families and parents are very different and have very different education philosophies than ATS. at least at my Immersion schools no HW is very supported. There are other reasons I am sure but the population is just different.

DP. PP said ATS has 12% SWD and has an autism program. But agree that cambpell attracts a different parent even though I know a lot of parents who applied to lottery for both.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Get the book On Purpose: How Great Schools From Strong Character. An entire chapter on ATS.

ATS has a unique culture going back over 40 years. Every teacher and family has chosen to be there. They tell you that at every BTS night. Teachers send their kids there if they can, former ATS students come back and teach there. Former teachers come back and volunteer there.

Other APS schools could do some of what makes ATS unique and some similar things.

Some schools have a model project but ATS has the ABCs which means a focus on academics, behavior and character. Kids learn this from day one and can tell you what the ABCs are and what they mean. They teach and reinforce the 6 pillars of citizenship and all of these messages are everywhere in the school.

Like other APS schools, they have unique parties and traditions. People think it's some test prep school and no one has fun. We already have the schedule of school parties for the year and my kids can't wait to go to the fall festival.

Everyone focuses on the homework and tucked-in shirts. But the school builds teacher relationships and school community from day 1 to set every kid up for academic success.

So does every other elementary school in the system. This is NOT what sets ATS apart.
Every school in Arlington will say they have and set high expectations for all of its students. This is NOT what sets ATS apart.
Each school in APS has its "unique" traditions and parties. This is NOT what sets ATS apart.
Each school my children have attended, regardless of model project, discuss and emphasize character, community, and academic success. This is NOT what sets ATS apart.

I don't know what specific thing it is that does set it apart; my kids didn't attend and I don't have direct experience. But I don't buy the "self-selection" argument. From my conversations with ATS parents I've known over the years, I think the "secret sauce" ingredients include:

1. holding every single student to the SAME HIGH standard - not a standard or goal individualized to each child. They believe and expect every student can and will meet those standards.

2. expecting and extracting each student's best efforts and best work - with those highest expectations and standards as the goal

3. every student taking up a musical instrument (music and brain development....scientific credibility, folks; as well as expanded opportunity or exposure v. schools where it's optional)

4. and apparently instructional methods employed, per AEM and DCUM commentaries (not shifting with the winds, sticking with something when it works)

Here's one example of a significant difference from many years ago, OP:
The summer reading program/goals at our kids' elementary school was 10 books. Summer reading expectations at ATS was (oh shoot, I forget if it was 25 or 50! someone else here surely knows?) Regardless, it was MORE THAN DOUBLE our school's. And the "reward" for the students meeting the goal at our school was a cookie party. At ATS, it was a field trip to the zoo. While it may have been a challenge for some kids to read ten books, it was nothing for most of the kids who actually did it. They were not significantly challenging those kids.

Which brings us to another key difference between ATS and at least many of our other elementary schools:
5. demographics and resources

Yes, yes, I know ATS has many low-income students and a diverse student body. But it is not the low-income levels of our Title I schools and is not the same level of ELL as those schools in particular.

OP, I agree with others that taking this to your principal is a bad idea. This is something that people need to start pushing at Central office.

I am wholeheartedly opposed to merely establishing a second ATS. Every school does not need to be ATS. Every school just needs to be as academically engaging as ATS at least seems to be. The biggest issue I have with the schools my kids have attended is the watering down of expectations, the lower level of intensity (versus what people describe at ATS). Students meeting expectations is "good enough" and they are not necessarily pushed (in general by the school - perhaps by some individual teachers) to push themselves beyond that. Again, I think this is a bigger issue at the highest FRL/ELL schools because the school's primary need is to get every student on grade level and they have far more students who need far more focus to get them there in the same amount of time.

I'll add another one in the what distinguished ATS column:
6. Dress codes. People believe them to be sexist and racist. I don't think shirts have to be tucked in; but why is it sexist to require every student to have their butts and mid-sections covered? I'll be put in the sexist camp, but I don't think young girls need to have a lot of cleavage showing either. Not because it's their fault if some boy gets excited or assaults her; but because it is clearly unnecessary and inappropriate in the school setting. I'm not buying the "individual expression and proud of my body" crap. Teen girls are dressing the way they do specifically for the attention, whether from their friends or from the boys. And boys don't need to have their pants hanging off their asses either.

Regardless of all of that, a real dress code (uniforms in particular) contribute to better focus on the purpose at hand: school. They take away other distracting nonsense and instill a sense of discipline and school pride. Dress codes don't have to be overly restrictive and can still allow for individual expression.

This dress code stuff doesn't make any sense. ATS is an elementary school. There are no teens. There is no cleavage. I've never seen an exposed midriff or butt of any note at our APS elementary school. There are no sexual assaults by elementary aged boys (I certainly hope). Elementary kid clothing is a total non-issue, ime. I have no idea why any of this rant would apply to any elementary school in Arlington.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do you feel your principal should hear your suggestions? Are you an educational consultant? Do you have a college degree in this field?
This type of feedback is out of turn. You have no idea what constraints the principal has.

DP. ATS has erased the achievement gap according to previous posts. Why shouldn't parents go to principals and ask would ATS's practices work here?

Veteran teachers at our school don't know anything about ATS. I asked last year after reading about it. They said they don't know much about it.

You think the principal is just sitting around twiddling their thumbs and waiting on a random parent to ask these questions? They’re already working hard, trying to get the best outcomes they can. They will never be ATS because
-they have some population of parents that can’t get their kids to school reliably. Not a factor at ATS
-they have some population of parents who do not care when their kid is disciplined. In fact they push back. Parents at ATS, just by participating in a lottery to get in, are the types who would take behavior seriously.
-they have parents who would never be on board with homework or a dress code (both, IMO, are part of the secret sauce). And forget summer homework
-they have lots of students with leaning disabilities, which affects test scores and how the school appears to be performing (because we all know kids with a lot of special need transfer from ATS when that becomes apparent and it’s not their strong suit)

So insulting to go to a principal and suggest they just try to be like ATS

I guess I don’t understand why it matters if some parents can’t reliably get their kids to school and won’t supervise homework. Some of those kids would benefit from the structure that their parents can’t or won’t provide. Raise the expectations and standards at the schools and let the chips fall where they may.

+100

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do you feel your principal should hear your suggestions? Are you an educational consultant? Do you have a college degree in this field?
This type of feedback is out of turn. You have no idea what constraints the principal has.

DP. ATS has erased the achievement gap according to previous posts. Why shouldn't parents go to principals and ask would ATS's practices work here?

Veteran teachers at our school don't know anything about ATS. I asked last year after reading about it. They said they don't know much about it.

You think the principal is just sitting around twiddling their thumbs and waiting on a random parent to ask these questions? They’re already working hard, trying to get the best outcomes they can. They will never be ATS because
-they have some population of parents that can’t get their kids to school reliably. Not a factor at ATS
-they have some population of parents who do not care when their kid is disciplined. In fact they push back. Parents at ATS, just by participating in a lottery to get in, are the types who would take behavior seriously.
-they have parents who would never be on board with homework or a dress code (both, IMO, are part of the secret sauce). And forget summer homework
-they have lots of students with leaning disabilities, which affects test scores and how the school appears to be performing (because we all know kids with a lot of special need transfer from ATS when that becomes apparent and it’s not their strong suit)

So insulting to go to a principal and suggest they just try to be like ATS [/quote

I guess I don’t understand why it matters if some parents can’t reliably get their kids to school and won’t supervise homework. Some of those kids would benefit from the structure that their parents can’t or won’t provide. Raise the expectations and standards at the schools and let the chips fall where they may.

Really? You don't understand why kids who don't have high attendance and supportive help at home do better? It's really not even close. You can't raise the standards at school (whatever that means) if the parents aren't on board. Look at how these boards freak out over homework in elementary school and going to Back To School nights.

It's this attitude that is the problem. Lower expectations because you know the higher ones aren't going to get reached and, at the same time, lower them for everyone, not just those you don't believe will rise to the occasion.