Asian-Americans Fight Back Against School Discrimination

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an ivy-league educated African-American, I'd said that admissions to elite high schools are the least of our concerns...or at least should be.

Most of us are much more focused on getting black and brown kids to read and perform math at somewhere close to grade level...the numbers are abysmal (though quite mediocre for white kids as well). A world where 50% of black kids read and perform math at grade level is a world transformed---more meaningfully transformed than a world with a few more black kids at TJ, Lowell, or Stuyvesant.

Once we get a critical mass of our kids to grade level, we can then work on cultivating an advanced crew that operates 2-3 years above grade level (which seems to be about avg among Asians or at least certain sub-categories thereof).

At that point, we can begin to have a discussion about elite school admissions and putting in place the requisite prep systems -- which really need to start around 3rd grade...right? My understanding is that Asian parents are working toward schools like TJ for years before taking the test.

To the extent Asian kids are "privileged", it's because they have parents and a community that are truly committed to academic excellence BEYOND what the public school is offering, and they seem to have developed an academic acceleration eco-system to support it. That is a real privilege for kids with access to those (often ethnic) eco-systems, but one that "we" should seek to emulate, not punish.

Funny thing is, most normal black folks (i.e., black folks you'd meet in the barbershop) would agree with all of the above. These school boards need to spend more time on "the street" vs. carousing with white liberals and activists black folks with agendas far removed from the people for whom they purport to speak.

Do you think that your race factored into your admission to an Ivy League school? Do you think Ivy League universities shouldn’t push to increase enrollment of URMs until after we had a critical mass of "Ivy-League-caliber", URM high school students?

There already is a small cohort of black students who are 2-3 years ahead in math. They were being admitted to TJ at 1/3rd of the rate of other kids in the same classes. Something in the old admissions process was broken.

I do agree that we should push hard to get kids on grade level - that is a huge issue. BUT, in parallel, we should also be revamping the admissions policy to be more inclusive of ED, URM, and broader FCPS community (not just a pocket of wealthy middle schools).

I'm not talking about what the schools should do. They do whatever suits them (for the most part). I'm talking about what "we" in the black community should do to the extent we care about things like admission to TJ and the like (and I'm not saying we should). Asian "over"-representation at TJ and co. is the result of certain processes, structures, and practices in place within that community. So the obvious thing -- to me at least -- would be for us to emulate those processes, structures, and practices within the black community, or at least encourage our motivated students to avail themselves of those processes, structures, and practices where accessible. I question whether intra-Asia community structures would be practically accessible given certain ethnic realities, which is why replication is probably the more viable approach. We cannot rely on public beneficence or largesse to do the job of prepping our children for elite academic spaces--- I mean, is there any community that has ever done that?

And -- yes -- I'm almost certain that my race was a factor. How could it not be in an explicitly race-conscious admissions process? Was it decisive? I don't know. Did I deserve to be admitted based on demonstrated merit? I reason so. But I'd also reason that was also true with many (most?) of the rejectees. The point is, my odds of admission were simply greater from the start versus a similarly situated white or Asian applicant. That's not necessarily a (policy) argument against Affirmative Action, but a simple reality. I oppose race-conscious admissions, but I wasn't exactly in a position to reject whatever preference I may have enjoyed. At any rate, if the Supreme Court does what I think it will, it will all be academic as far as my kids are concerned. No matter to me, as they are privileged enough such that an ivy-league credential won't be the game-changer it was for me, with my decidedly MUCH more modest background. To be honest, I can't even relate to my kids' experiences most of the time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Do you think that your race factored into your admission to an Ivy League school? Do you think Ivy League universities shouldn’t push to increase enrollment of URMs until after we had a critical mass of "Ivy-League-caliber", URM high school students?

There already is a small cohort of black students who are 2-3 years ahead in math. They were being admitted to TJ at 1/3rd of the rate of other kids in the same classes. Something in the old admissions process was broken.

I do agree that we should push hard to get kids on grade level - that is a huge issue. BUT, in parallel, we should also be revamping the admissions policy to be more inclusive of ED, URM, and broader FCPS community (not just a pocket of wealthy middle schools).

DP.. if those kids were actually 2-3 years ahead in math, how is it that they weren't admitted? Did they apply? Were their test scores low? If that is the case, then instead of looking at race, they should be providing after school tutoring for test prep.

How is it that the previous policy excluded ED, URM and the broader FCPS community?

Because they didn't want to go. Just like all the other highly talented students at the other high schools in the area who chose not to go to TJ.

That is part of what the changes in admissions was designed to fix, as well. But a lot of it has been obscured by the emails and communications that have come to light.

No, they wanted to go. They applied in droves (~92% of eligible black 8th graders applied for class of 2015), but weren't admitted.

Look at black 8th graders in FCPS in 2010/11 (754)
~32% (244) were eligible to apply (205 were in A1H, 37 were in GH, 2 were above GH)
~92% (224) of eligible applied
average admit rates for A1H=4%, GH=26%, G+=67%
based on application rate & admit rates, the # of admits should be ~18 kids
but there were only 6 admitted
the admit rate for black students was 3% compared to the average admit rate of 15%

even if you just look at the kids who were 2+ years ahead in math (GH and above GH) there should have been 10 kids admitted

something is off

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not Asian but I hope they fight back. In my city, our number 1 magnet has a high Asian population. Similar things are happening with the admissions process. However, a large percentage of the Asian population have parents who are poor immigrants. People keep throwing the word "privilege" around. I am mot sure how being a poor immigrant and probably a high percentage are not documented make you privileged.

Privilege doesn’t only refer to the amount of money someone has. There are lots of ways to be advantaged that don’t involve money at all. Kids have no say in what family they are born to and shouldn’t be penalized for that fact.

Don’t black parents at least speak English? She me Asian parents are not fluent in English so that would put them at a disadvantage.

Why does that matter? If the kid speaks fluent English, it's a non-issue. It's the kid who is applying, not the parent.

Because the entire argument for changing the admissions system at TJ was that Asian parents were privileged and URM parents were not privileged. That’s why.

I dont understand Asian Americans obsession with being "discriminated" against for schools or college. Bias against Asian Americans is that you are smarter than other people, better at math, etc. Asian Americans also make more than any other race for the same job with the same education in the same location.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not Asian but I hope they fight back. In my city, our number 1 magnet has a high Asian population. Similar things are happening with the admissions process. However, a large percentage of the Asian population have parents who are poor immigrants. People keep throwing the word "privilege" around. I am mot sure how being a poor immigrant and probably a high percentage are not documented make you privileged.

Privilege doesn’t only refer to the amount of money someone has. There are lots of ways to be advantaged that don’t involve money at all. Kids have no say in what family they are born to and shouldn’t be penalized for that fact.

Don’t black parents at least speak English? She me Asian parents are not fluent in English so that would put them at a disadvantage.

Why does that matter? If the kid speaks fluent English, it's a non-issue. It's the kid who is applying, not the parent.

Because the entire argument for changing the admissions system at TJ was that Asian parents were privileged and URM parents were not privileged. That’s why.

I dont understand Asian Americans obsession with being "discriminated" against for schools or college. Bias against Asian Americans is that you are smarter than other people, better at math, etc. Asian Americans also make more than any other race for the same job with the same education in the same location.

I'll let Asian Americans address this, but I gather that it seems patently unfair that you have to score higher than others to even be considered for admission simply on account of a racial category. Also, I assume that the fact that Asian Americans do better in general is irrelevant as it pertains to you or your particular Asian family. In fact, I'd wager that the high achievement levels of Asians make college admissions even more fraught for Asians---having to maintain the image/standard and all. That being said, I'm not sure that you can make a global statement that Asian Americans are obsessed with this writ large.

But on the perception of being smarter...yeah, that is a "privilege" because I (and my black kids) have experienced the flip-side of being doubted until you've proven yourself to be one of the "smart ones", and even then, being more a curiosity that some folks don't know what to make off. On the other hand, if you are black and "exceptional" people tend to remember you, and lots of folks have an interest in showcasing you and showering you with attention (and rewards) that you might not get if you were white or Asian.....but this assumes that you've been able to run the gauntlet of low expectations. That's the thing, if you can make it through the obstacle course, you may find yourself with a leg up on college admissions to a selective institution. But most black kids (even ones with promising starts) have washed out by then.

Yeah, if DeMarcus maintains a low B average we are thrilled...but we expect so much more of Chad or Jenny, so let's see what we can do to get them to where we know they can achieve. I tell black parents all the time that YOU must set the standard for your kids because academic institutions will ALWAYS lowball your kids' abilities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Do you think that your race factored into your admission to an Ivy League school? Do you think Ivy League universities shouldn’t push to increase enrollment of URMs until after we had a critical mass of "Ivy-League-caliber", URM high school students?

There already is a small cohort of black students who are 2-3 years ahead in math. They were being admitted to TJ at 1/3rd of the rate of other kids in the same classes. Something in the old admissions process was broken.

I do agree that we should push hard to get kids on grade level - that is a huge issue. BUT, in parallel, we should also be revamping the admissions policy to be more inclusive of ED, URM, and broader FCPS community (not just a pocket of wealthy middle schools).

DP.. if those kids were actually 2-3 years ahead in math, how is it that they weren't admitted? Did they apply? Were their test scores low? If that is the case, then instead of looking at race, they should be providing after school tutoring for test prep.

How is it that the previous policy excluded ED, URM and the broader FCPS community?

Because they didn't want to go. Just like all the other highly talented students at the other high schools in the area who chose not to go to TJ.

That is part of what the changes in admissions was designed to fix, as well. But a lot of it has been obscured by the emails and communications that have come to light.

No, they wanted to go. They applied in droves (~92% of eligible black 8th graders applied for class of 2015), but weren't admitted.

Look at black 8th graders in FCPS in 2010/11 (754)
~32% (244) were eligible to apply (205 were in A1H, 37 were in GH, 2 were above GH)
~92% (224) of eligible applied
average admit rates for A1H=4%, GH=26%, G+=67%
based on application rate & admit rates, the # of admits should be ~18 kids
but there were only 6 admitted
the admit rate for black students was 3% compared to the average admit rate of 15%

even if you just look at the kids who were 2+ years ahead in math (GH and above GH) there should have been 10 kids admitted

something is off

I was not aware of any of this. If black kids' admit rates have been lower than what they should have been based by relevant metrics (and as compared to other populations), then is an issue, maybe even a legal one.

[Anonymous]

Hispanic admit rates for advanced math kids were more in line with what should be expected. (links & more data on the other thread)

Disclaimer that was just one year of data with some assumptions.

It'd be more meaningful to look to see if it's was a pattern over time. I'd be happy to crunch the numbers if the person who had the math class breakdown could get more years of data.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As an ivy-league educated African-American, I'd said that admissions to elite high schools are the least of our concerns...or at least should be.

Most of us are much more focused on getting black and brown kids to read and perform math at somewhere close to grade level...the numbers are abysmal (though quite mediocre for white kids as well). A world where 50% of black kids read and perform math at grade level is a world transformed---more meaningfully transformed than a world with a few more black kids at TJ, Lowell, or Stuyvesant.

Once we get a critical mass of our kids to grade level, we can then work on cultivating an advanced crew that operates 2-3 years above grade level (which seems to be about avg among Asians or at least certain sub-categories thereof).

At that point, we can begin to have a discussion about elite school admissions and putting in place the requisite prep systems -- which really need to start around 3rd grade...right? My understanding is that Asian parents are working toward schools like TJ for years before taking the test.

To the extent Asian kids are "privileged", it's because they have parents and a community that are truly committed to academic excellence BEYOND what the public school is offering, and they seem to have developed an academic acceleration eco-system to support it. That is a real privilege for kids with access to those (often ethnic) eco-systems, but one that "we" should seek to emulate, not punish.

Funny thing is, most normal black folks (i.e., black folks you'd meet in the barbershop) would agree with all of the above. These school boards need to spend more time on "the street" vs. carousing with white liberals and activists black folks with agendas far removed from the people for whom they purport to speak.

Very well said. Why are we focused on admissions to elite high schools when school districts need to focus on providing the supports and supplementation to families to ensure that 50 percent or more students are reading at grade level by the third grade? If school districts invested in providing additional tutoring and summer programing for all students who are not reading at grade level by first grade, they would see clear dividends. The Federal District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia held that tweaking the admissions process to achieve racial balancing is unconstitutional because it disparately impacts Asian students. But even if the current process was constitutional, what will make the biggest difference in fostering advanced students from underrepresented backgrounds is to shore up reading among younger students. Studies have shown that if a student is not reading at grade level by third grade, it will be difficult to make up for areas where they fall further behind in every subject where reading is critical. You learn to read in the early elementary years and then from third grade forward, you read to learn. Without this foundation, a student is forever trying to catch up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an ivy-league educated African-American, I'd said that admissions to elite high schools are the least of our concerns...or at least should be.

Most of us are much more focused on getting black and brown kids to read and perform math at somewhere close to grade level...the numbers are abysmal (though quite mediocre for white kids as well). A world where 50% of black kids read and perform math at grade level is a world transformed---more meaningfully transformed than a world with a few more black kids at TJ, Lowell, or Stuyvesant.

Once we get a critical mass of our kids to grade level, we can then work on cultivating an advanced crew that operates 2-3 years above grade level (which seems to be about avg among Asians or at least certain sub-categories thereof).

At that point, we can begin to have a discussion about elite school admissions and putting in place the requisite prep systems -- which really need to start around 3rd grade...right? My understanding is that Asian parents are working toward schools like TJ for years before taking the test.

To the extent Asian kids are "privileged", it's because they have parents and a community that are truly committed to academic excellence BEYOND what the public school is offering, and they seem to have developed an academic acceleration eco-system to support it. That is a real privilege for kids with access to those (often ethnic) eco-systems, but one that "we" should seek to emulate, not punish.

Funny thing is, most normal black folks (i.e., black folks you'd meet in the barbershop) would agree with all of the above. These school boards need to spend more time on "the street" vs. carousing with white liberals and activists black folks with agendas far removed from the people for whom they purport to speak.

Very well said. Why are we focused on admissions to elite high schools when school districts need to focus on providing the supports and supplementation to families to ensure that 50 percent or more students are reading at grade level by the third grade? If school districts invested in providing additional tutoring and summer programing for all students who are not reading at grade level by first grade, they would see clear dividends. The Federal District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia held that tweaking the admissions process to achieve racial balancing is unconstitutional because it disparately impacts Asian students. But even if the current process was constitutional, what will make the biggest difference in fostering advanced students from underrepresented backgrounds is to shore up reading among younger students. Studies have shown that if a student is not reading at grade level by third grade, it will be difficult to make up for areas where they fall further behind in every subject where reading is critical. You learn to read in the early elementary years and then from third grade forward, you read to learn. Without this foundation, a student is forever trying to catch up.

Who is focusing on admissions? The entitled, rich kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an ivy-league educated African-American, I'd said that admissions to elite high schools are the least of our concerns...or at least should be.

Most of us are much more focused on getting black and brown kids to read and perform math at somewhere close to grade level...the numbers are abysmal (though quite mediocre for white kids as well). A world where 50% of black kids read and perform math at grade level is a world transformed---more meaningfully transformed than a world with a few more black kids at TJ, Lowell, or Stuyvesant.

Once we get a critical mass of our kids to grade level, we can then work on cultivating an advanced crew that operates 2-3 years above grade level (which seems to be about avg among Asians or at least certain sub-categories thereof).

At that point, we can begin to have a discussion about elite school admissions and putting in place the requisite prep systems -- which really need to start around 3rd grade...right? My understanding is that Asian parents are working toward schools like TJ for years before taking the test.

To the extent Asian kids are "privileged", it's because they have parents and a community that are truly committed to academic excellence BEYOND what the public school is offering, and they seem to have developed an academic acceleration eco-system to support it. That is a real privilege for kids with access to those (often ethnic) eco-systems, but one that "we" should seek to emulate, not punish.

Funny thing is, most normal black folks (i.e., black folks you'd meet in the barbershop) would agree with all of the above. These school boards need to spend more time on "the street" vs. carousing with white liberals and activists black folks with agendas far removed from the people for whom they purport to speak.

Do you think that your race factored into your admission to an Ivy League school? Do you think Ivy League universities shouldn’t push to increase enrollment of URMs until after we had a critical mass of "Ivy-League-caliber", URM high school students?

There already is a small cohort of black students who are 2-3 years ahead in math. They were being admitted to TJ at 1/3rd of the rate of other kids in the same classes. Something in the old admissions process was broken.

I do agree that we should push hard to get kids on grade level - that is a huge issue. BUT, in parallel, we should also be revamping the admissions policy to be more inclusive of ED, URM, and broader FCPS community (not just a pocket of wealthy middle schools).

I'm not talking about what the schools should do. They do whatever suits them (for the most part). I'm talking about what "we" in the black community should do to the extent we care about things like admission to TJ and the like (and I'm not saying we should). Asian "over"-representation at TJ and co. is the result of certain processes, structures, and practices in place within that community. So the obvious thing -- to me at least -- would be for us to emulate those processes, structures, and practices within the black community, or at least encourage our motivated students to avail themselves of those processes, structures, and practices where accessible. I question whether intra-Asia community structures would be practically accessible given certain ethnic realities, which is why replication is probably the more viable approach. We cannot rely on public beneficence or largesse to do the job of prepping our children for elite academic spaces--- I mean, is there any community that has ever done that?

And -- yes -- I'm almost certain that my race was a factor. How could it not be in an explicitly race-conscious admissions process? Was it decisive? I don't know. Did I deserve to be admitted based on demonstrated merit? I reason so. But I'd also reason that was also true with many (most?) of the rejectees. The point is, my odds of admission were simply greater from the start versus a similarly situated white or Asian applicant. That's not necessarily a (policy) argument against Affirmative Action, but a simple reality. I oppose race-conscious admissions, but I wasn't exactly in a position to reject whatever preference I may have enjoyed. At any rate, if the Supreme Court does what I think it will, it will all be academic as far as my kids are concerned. No matter to me, as they are privileged enough such that an ivy-league credential won't be the game-changer it was for me, with my decidedly MUCH more modest background. To be honest, I can't even relate to my kids' experiences most of the time.

So pull that ladder up behind you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an ivy-league educated African-American, I'd said that admissions to elite high schools are the least of our concerns...or at least should be.

Most of us are much more focused on getting black and brown kids to read and perform math at somewhere close to grade level...the numbers are abysmal (though quite mediocre for white kids as well). A world where 50% of black kids read and perform math at grade level is a world transformed---more meaningfully transformed than a world with a few more black kids at TJ, Lowell, or Stuyvesant.

Once we get a critical mass of our kids to grade level, we can then work on cultivating an advanced crew that operates 2-3 years above grade level (which seems to be about avg among Asians or at least certain sub-categories thereof).

At that point, we can begin to have a discussion about elite school admissions and putting in place the requisite prep systems -- which really need to start around 3rd grade...right? My understanding is that Asian parents are working toward schools like TJ for years before taking the test.

To the extent Asian kids are "privileged", it's because they have parents and a community that are truly committed to academic excellence BEYOND what the public school is offering, and they seem to have developed an academic acceleration eco-system to support it. That is a real privilege for kids with access to those (often ethnic) eco-systems, but one that "we" should seek to emulate, not punish.

Funny thing is, most normal black folks (i.e., black folks you'd meet in the barbershop) would agree with all of the above. These school boards need to spend more time on "the street" vs. carousing with white liberals and activists black folks with agendas far removed from the people for whom they purport to speak.

Do you think that your race factored into your admission to an Ivy League school? Do you think Ivy League universities shouldn’t push to increase enrollment of URMs until after we had a critical mass of "Ivy-League-caliber", URM high school students?

There already is a small cohort of black students who are 2-3 years ahead in math. They were being admitted to TJ at 1/3rd of the rate of other kids in the same classes. Something in the old admissions process was broken.

I do agree that we should push hard to get kids on grade level - that is a huge issue. BUT, in parallel, we should also be revamping the admissions policy to be more inclusive of ED, URM, and broader FCPS community (not just a pocket of wealthy middle schools).

I'm not talking about what the schools should do. They do whatever suits them (for the most part). I'm talking about what "we" in the black community should do to the extent we care about things like admission to TJ and the like (and I'm not saying we should). Asian "over"-representation at TJ and co. is the result of certain processes, structures, and practices in place within that community. So the obvious thing -- to me at least -- would be for us to emulate those processes, structures, and practices within the black community, or at least encourage our motivated students to avail themselves of those processes, structures, and practices where accessible. I question whether intra-Asia community structures would be practically accessible given certain ethnic realities, which is why replication is probably the more viable approach. We cannot rely on public beneficence or largesse to do the job of prepping our children for elite academic spaces--- I mean, is there any community that has ever done that?

And -- yes -- I'm almost certain that my race was a factor. How could it not be in an explicitly race-conscious admissions process? Was it decisive? I don't know. Did I deserve to be admitted based on demonstrated merit? I reason so. But I'd also reason that was also true with many (most?) of the rejectees. The point is, my odds of admission were simply greater from the start versus a similarly situated white or Asian applicant. That's not necessarily a (policy) argument against Affirmative Action, but a simple reality. I oppose race-conscious admissions, but I wasn't exactly in a position to reject whatever preference I may have enjoyed. At any rate, if the Supreme Court does what I think it will, it will all be academic as far as my kids are concerned. No matter to me, as they are privileged enough such that an ivy-league credential won't be the game-changer it was for me, with my decidedly MUCH more modest background. To be honest, I can't even relate to my kids' experiences most of the time.

So pull that ladder up behind you.

Like Clarence Thomas

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an ivy-league educated African-American, I'd said that admissions to elite high schools are the least of our concerns...or at least should be.

Most of us are much more focused on getting black and brown kids to read and perform math at somewhere close to grade level...the numbers are abysmal (though quite mediocre for white kids as well). A world where 50% of black kids read and perform math at grade level is a world transformed---more meaningfully transformed than a world with a few more black kids at TJ, Lowell, or Stuyvesant.

Once we get a critical mass of our kids to grade level, we can then work on cultivating an advanced crew that operates 2-3 years above grade level (which seems to be about avg among Asians or at least certain sub-categories thereof).

At that point, we can begin to have a discussion about elite school admissions and putting in place the requisite prep systems -- which really need to start around 3rd grade...right? My understanding is that Asian parents are working toward schools like TJ for years before taking the test.

To the extent Asian kids are "privileged", it's because they have parents and a community that are truly committed to academic excellence BEYOND what the public school is offering, and they seem to have developed an academic acceleration eco-system to support it. That is a real privilege for kids with access to those (often ethnic) eco-systems, but one that "we" should seek to emulate, not punish.

Funny thing is, most normal black folks (i.e., black folks you'd meet in the barbershop) would agree with all of the above. These school boards need to spend more time on "the street" vs. carousing with white liberals and activists black folks with agendas far removed from the people for whom they purport to speak.

Do you think that your race factored into your admission to an Ivy League school? Do you think Ivy League universities shouldn’t push to increase enrollment of URMs until after we had a critical mass of "Ivy-League-caliber", URM high school students?

There already is a small cohort of black students who are 2-3 years ahead in math. They were being admitted to TJ at 1/3rd of the rate of other kids in the same classes. Something in the old admissions process was broken.

I do agree that we should push hard to get kids on grade level - that is a huge issue. BUT, in parallel, we should also be revamping the admissions policy to be more inclusive of ED, URM, and broader FCPS community (not just a pocket of wealthy middle schools).

I'm not talking about what the schools should do. They do whatever suits them (for the most part). I'm talking about what "we" in the black community should do to the extent we care about things like admission to TJ and the like (and I'm not saying we should). Asian "over"-representation at TJ and co. is the result of certain processes, structures, and practices in place within that community. So the obvious thing -- to me at least -- would be for us to emulate those processes, structures, and practices within the black community, or at least encourage our motivated students to avail themselves of those processes, structures, and practices where accessible. I question whether intra-Asia community structures would be practically accessible given certain ethnic realities, which is why replication is probably the more viable approach. We cannot rely on public beneficence or largesse to do the job of prepping our children for elite academic spaces--- I mean, is there any community that has ever done that?

And -- yes -- I'm almost certain that my race was a factor. How could it not be in an explicitly race-conscious admissions process? Was it decisive? I don't know. Did I deserve to be admitted based on demonstrated merit? I reason so. But I'd also reason that was also true with many (most?) of the rejectees. The point is, my odds of admission were simply greater from the start versus a similarly situated white or Asian applicant. That's not necessarily a (policy) argument against Affirmative Action, but a simple reality. I oppose race-conscious admissions, but I wasn't exactly in a position to reject whatever preference I may have enjoyed. At any rate, if the Supreme Court does what I think it will, it will all be academic as far as my kids are concerned. No matter to me, as they are privileged enough such that an ivy-league credential won't be the game-changer it was for me, with my decidedly MUCH more modest background. To be honest, I can't even relate to my kids' experiences most of the time.

So pull that ladder up behind you.

Like Clarence Thomas

There it is. The old pulling up the ladder trope. Shocked it wasn’t deployed earlier. I forgot that I’m estopped from having any independent views on the issue of racial preference policies because such policies may have been in place when I applied to school. That’s fine I guess, since very few people attend selective institutions where affirmative action is even a factor, meaning that the population of folks entitled to have views on the matter (which doesn’t include me apparently) remains large. So I’ll just keep my mouth shut like a good little…. At any rate, and more importantly, MOST black oppose the use of race preference in school admissions. As very few of them ascended a ladder to a selective institution, I gather they (unlike me) retain the right to express independent views of the matter. And they have indeed spoken: 62% of black folks oppose the use of race as a factor in college admissions.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/02/25/most-americans-say-colleges-should-not-consider-race-or-ethnicity-in-admissions/

But you know, it’s not like those folks know what good for ‘em.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
There it is. The old pulling up the ladder trope. Shocked it wasn’t deployed earlier. I forgot that I’m estopped from having any independent views on the issue of racial preference policies because such policies may have been in place when I applied to school. That’s fine I guess, since very few people attend selective institutions where affirmative action is even a factor, meaning that the population of folks entitled to have views on the matter (which doesn’t include me apparently) remains large. So I’ll just keep my mouth shut like a good little…. At any rate, and more importantly, MOST black oppose the use of race preference in school admissions. As very few of them ascended a ladder to a selective institution, I gather they (unlike me) retain the right to express independent views of the matter. And they have indeed spoken: 62% of black folks oppose the use of race as a factor in college admissions.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/02/25/most-americans-say-colleges-should-not-consider-race-or-ethnicity-in-admissions/

But you know, it’s not like those folks know what good for ‘em.

+1 CA -- majority minority state -- passed Prop 209, removing race as a qualifying factor in CA university admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not Asian but I hope they fight back. In my city, our number 1 magnet has a high Asian population. Similar things are happening with the admissions process. However, a large percentage of the Asian population have parents who are poor immigrants. People keep throwing the word "privilege" around. I am mot sure how being a poor immigrant and probably a high percentage are not documented make you privileged.

Privilege doesn’t only refer to the amount of money someone has. There are lots of ways to be advantaged that don’t involve money at all. Kids have no say in what family they are born to and shouldn’t be penalized for that fact.

Don’t black parents at least speak English? She me Asian parents are not fluent in English so that would put them at a disadvantage.

Why does that matter? If the kid speaks fluent English, it's a non-issue. It's the kid who is applying, not the parent.

Because the entire argument for changing the admissions system at TJ was that Asian parents were privileged and URM parents were not privileged. That’s why.

I dont understand Asian Americans obsession with being "discriminated" against for schools or college. Bias against Asian Americans is that you are smarter than other people, better at math, etc. Asian Americans also make more than any other race for the same job with the same education in the same location.

So Asian Americans are the model minority and have no right to speak up against discriminatory practices? Asian American discrimination is real. But the overarching problem, in my view, is assessing students predominantly through the lens of race, rather than as a person and an individual. That’s the truly invidious aspect of some of these discussions about race. There are privileged Asian American kids who benefit from the efforts of their families, just as there are wealthy/well off white, black, Latino families. But there are also kids who are from poor families, new immigrant families, etc. And of course there are both white, black, minority kids from disadvantaged backgrounds. A truly equitable approach to education and admissions would be to make a high quality education available to ALL kids and then to take family socioeconomic background into account in admissions, not just race.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not Asian but I hope they fight back. In my city, our number 1 magnet has a high Asian population. Similar things are happening with the admissions process. However, a large percentage of the Asian population have parents who are poor immigrants. People keep throwing the word "privilege" around. I am mot sure how being a poor immigrant and probably a high percentage are not documented make you privileged.

Privilege doesn’t only refer to the amount of money someone has. There are lots of ways to be advantaged that don’t involve money at all. Kids have no say in what family they are born to and shouldn’t be penalized for that fact.

Don’t black parents at least speak English? She me Asian parents are not fluent in English so that would put them at a disadvantage.

Why does that matter? If the kid speaks fluent English, it's a non-issue. It's the kid who is applying, not the parent.

Because the entire argument for changing the admissions system at TJ was that Asian parents were privileged and URM parents were not privileged. That’s why.

I dont understand Asian Americans obsession with being "discriminated" against for schools or college. Bias against Asian Americans is that you are smarter than other people, better at math, etc. Asian Americans also make more than any other race for the same job with the same education in the same location.

So Asian Americans are the model minority and have no right to speak up against discriminatory practices? Asian American discrimination is real. But the overarching problem, in my view, is assessing students predominantly through the lens of race, rather than as a person and an individual. That’s the truly invidious aspect of some of these discussions about race. There are privileged Asian American kids who benefit from the efforts of their families, just as there are wealthy/well off white, black, Latino families. But there are also kids who are from poor families, new immigrant families, etc. And of course there are both white, black, minority kids from disadvantaged backgrounds. A truly equitable approach to education and admissions would be to make a high quality education available to ALL kids and then to take family socioeconomic background into account in admissions, not just race.

How do you evaluate a person by just test scores and a gpa? BC thats the argument I hear for admissions when this is discussed- only academics matter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not Asian but I hope they fight back. In my city, our number 1 magnet has a high Asian population. Similar things are happening with the admissions process. However, a large percentage of the Asian population have parents who are poor immigrants. People keep throwing the word "privilege" around. I am mot sure how being a poor immigrant and probably a high percentage are not documented make you privileged.

Privilege doesn’t only refer to the amount of money someone has. There are lots of ways to be advantaged that don’t involve money at all. Kids have no say in what family they are born to and shouldn’t be penalized for that fact.

Don’t black parents at least speak English? She me Asian parents are not fluent in English so that would put them at a disadvantage.

Why does that matter? If the kid speaks fluent English, it's a non-issue. It's the kid who is applying, not the parent.

Because the entire argument for changing the admissions system at TJ was that Asian parents were privileged and URM parents were not privileged. That’s why.

I dont understand Asian Americans obsession with being "discriminated" against for schools or college. Bias against Asian Americans is that you are smarter than other people, better at math, etc. Asian Americans also make more than any other race for the same job with the same education in the same location.

So Asian Americans are the model minority and have no right to speak up against discriminatory practices? Asian American discrimination is real. But the overarching problem, in my view, is assessing students predominantly through the lens of race, rather than as a person and an individual. That’s the truly invidious aspect of some of these discussions about race. There are privileged Asian American kids who benefit from the efforts of their families, just as there are wealthy/well off white, black, Latino families. But there are also kids who are from poor families, new immigrant families, etc. And of course there are both white, black, minority kids from disadvantaged backgrounds. A truly equitable approach to education and admissions would be to make a high quality education available to ALL kids and then to take family socioeconomic background into account in admissions, not just race.

Kinda like giving extra points to kids from lower-income families and/or attended lower-income middle schools? Maybe even EL students?