Reflections on the "TJ Papers"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sad. Very sad that TJ admissions have become so political. I hope they take up the offer from that professor to make an "unpreppable test" that we keep hearing about and figure out how to fix the AAP process to identify URMs earlier and give them an honest chance to compete for admission to TJ.

Yes - it is sad, but you have to ask:

- which party politicized it?

The entire school board and Brabrand are democrats.

- why do people vote against their children’s best interests by voting for democrats? And before someone attacks republicans here, let school boards were balanced or even majority R; yet the republicans never proposed anything as radical as what the current entrenched Dem school board has actually done.

So looking forward to change under Youngkin!

We have to have a more politically diverse group of School Board members.

The 12-0 Democratic School Board of the past two years has been the largest disaster in recent FCPS history. It's not that these people never disagree with each other; they do, sometimes vociferously, and ridicule each other in their text messages and emails, as revealed by the discovery in this case. The problem is that they believe that publicly they have to toe the same party line and speak with an almost uniform voice. They operate in constant fear of being called out as "on the wrong side of history" by their political patrons.

That is a recipe for disaster, and we see the poor results time after time with this School Board.

As a Democrat I'm disappointed in this but not about to switch parties. I do think there is a collision between attitudes that are pro-science, pro-education, and pro-expert judgment in general on the left, and the dismantling of advanced education. It's a potential wedge issue but I hope it doesn't become that (any more than it has).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow lots to read but thank you for the summary. Early identification of URM students and early mentoring can help achieve equity without discrimination against another group.

Whenever someone says this, my sense is always that what they really want is for admissions to stay exactly as it is so that kids who already have the advantage of early “mentoring” (in the form of parents who are highly interested in education) will continue to be the ones who go to TJ.

And to add, they don’t really have a strong interest in helping kids who have fewer advantages than their own kids.

I think realistically, people are all for the idea of having more underprivileged SES or racial minorities at TJ, and the real concern is just the watering down of standards. (The idea is that we should be ensuring that all kids have the education they need to do well at TJ, not just giving up and saying, eh, these kids can't compete so we'll lower the bar.)

The root (or a root) of the problem seems to be that some kids get more of a head start than others, and so realistically it seems like the best solution to this is to help give kids who aren't getting a 'leg up' from their parents to get that leg up as quickly as possible from the schools - through extra early resources. That's not a solution I've heard anyone rally against, which is what I'd expect if parents with more advantages were truly trying to keep kids with fewer advantages down. But it's also not a fast solution, and thus not popular with the district.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow lots to read but thank you for the summary. Early identification of URM students and early mentoring can help achieve equity without discrimination against another group.

Whenever someone says this, my sense is always that what they really want is for admissions to stay exactly as it is so that kids who already have the advantage of early “mentoring” (in the form of parents who are highly interested in education) will continue to be the ones who go to TJ.

And to add, they don’t really have a strong interest in helping kids who have fewer advantages than their own kids.

Interesting you'd say that, because there was probably no more active group of tutors than the TJ parents and students, mostly Asian, who volunteered their time at Weyanoke and other elementary schools near TJ.

It's just bizarre that the number of Black, Hispanic and FARMS kids at TJ was allowed to become the main test as to whether FCPS is helping less advantaged kids. They can rejigger their admissions process yet again to ensure the admission of more URM and FARMS kids and still the vast majority of kids in FCPS will still be attending other schools.

Interesting you’d bring up the TJ tutoring program. I spent two years driving TJ kids to tutor at a school near TJ. There were no parents tutoring, and frankly, from their conversations in my car, it sounded as though most of the kids were doing it to have some kind of “community service” to put on their college applications.

TJ should be a place for all the kids who need a school like that, even, and maybe especially, the kids who didn’t happen to be born to parents who prioritize the education of their children above all else.

[Anonymous]

What a shame TJ has now ceased to be a top STEM school for academically advanced students and now is just an experiment in social mobility to be achieved by awarding golden tickets in a comparatively random manner.

[Anonymous]

If your kid would have gotten in under the old systems and doesn’t under the new system, they were probably a marginal candidate to begin with and will be just as well served in their home school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow lots to read but thank you for the summary. Early identification of URM students and early mentoring can help achieve equity without discrimination against another group.

Agreed. But how do we do this? Very important issue so I am truly interested in hearing how this can be achieved.

If you read through the docs, there was a blurb backed with actual stats that there were enough URM black and hispanic kids in level IV centers taking geometry in 8th to fill half a TJ freshman class, but they were not applying for TJ .

If the students are prepared, but not interested, for whatever reason, then lowering the standards to something almost any fcps can meet (algebra in 8th and low GPA cut off for middle school) is a huge mistake.

As a parent of a TJ kid, I think the bolded needs to be looked at. WHY are kids/parents not interested? (And some are overly interested.)

Why is it hard to understand that a 45+ minute commute to high school isn't desirable for a lot of kids especially if it means having to drop sports and activities.

It is almost comical that nobody has brought up the issue of peer groups as a reason why some of these qualified URMs are not choosing to attend TJ. Get a critical mass of URM students in there and then see if that changes the perception of TJ as an Asian/White magnet school.

I wholeheartedly support Dr. Brabrand and the SB on this issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If your kid would have gotten in under the old systems and doesn’t under the new system, they were probably a marginal candidate to begin with and will be just as well served in their home school.

Spare us the agit prop. The changes were intended to admit students who wouldn’t have made the cut under the older, more rigorous application process. Too bad your kids depend on anti-Asian politicians to have a shot.

[Anonymous]

Yeah. This seals the deal for me- the change in admissions is definitely racist.

Brabrand should get sued for this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow lots to read but thank you for the summary. Early identification of URM students and early mentoring can help achieve equity without discrimination against another group.

Agreed. But how do we do this? Very important issue so I am truly interested in hearing how this can be achieved.

If you read through the docs, there was a blurb backed with actual stats that there were enough URM black and hispanic kids in level IV centers taking geometry in 8th to fill half a TJ freshman class, but they were not applying for TJ .

If the students are prepared, but not interested, for whatever reason, then lowering the standards to something almost any fcps can meet (algebra in 8th and low GPA cut off for middle school) is a huge mistake.

As a parent of a TJ kid, I think the bolded needs to be looked at. WHY are kids/parents not interested? (And some are overly interested.)

Why is it hard to understand that a 45+ minute commute to high school isn't desirable for a lot of kids especially if it means having to drop sports and activities.

It is almost comical that nobody has brought up the issue of peer groups as a reason why some of these qualified URMs are not choosing to attend TJ. Get a critical mass of URM students in there and then see if that changes the perception of TJ as an Asian/White magnet school.

I wholeheartedly support Dr. Brabrand and the SB on this issue.

No one perceives TJ as “Asian/White.” The student body was consistently 80% Asian, with the remaining 20% a mix of other races.

But in the past, all the TJ students had one thing in common: they were judged and admitted on the content of their academic achievement, rather than on the color of their skin.

Racist new criteria were introduced by Brabrand and the current SB.

How can you possibly support these racists, and their racist policies? It is all out in the open now (not to mention a focus on TJ admissions at the expense of dealing with the Covid-19 crisis).

[Anonymous]

How can liberal whites sleep at night when they support all the racist liberal policies (affirmative action, TJ reform... you name it) and act like a civilized person in front of people?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow lots to read but thank you for the summary. Early identification of URM students and early mentoring can help achieve equity without discrimination against another group.

Whenever someone says this, my sense is always that what they really want is for admissions to stay exactly as it is so that kids who already have the advantage of early “mentoring” (in the form of parents who are highly interested in education) will continue to be the ones who go to TJ.

And to add, they don’t really have a strong interest in helping kids who have fewer advantages than their own kids.

I think realistically, people are all for the idea of having more underprivileged SES or racial minorities at TJ, and the real concern is just the watering down of standards. (The idea is that we should be ensuring that all kids have the education they need to do well at TJ, not just giving up and saying, eh, these kids can't compete so we'll lower the bar.)

The root (or a root) of the problem seems to be that some kids get more of a head start than others, and so realistically it seems like the best solution to this is to help give kids who aren't getting a 'leg up' from their parents to get that leg up as quickly as possible from the schools - through extra early resources. That's not a solution I've heard anyone rally against, which is what I'd expect if parents with more advantages were truly trying to keep kids with fewer advantages down. But it's also not a fast solution, and thus not popular with the district.

That method has been tried since the beginning of head start in the 1960s. It doesn't work because 1) there just aren't enough resources to equalize opportunities between kids with educated well off motivated parents and kids whose parents are none of those things and 2) there is no political will to dump that kind of money into pushing poorer kids past better off kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow lots to read but thank you for the summary. Early identification of URM students and early mentoring can help achieve equity without discrimination against another group.

Agreed. But how do we do this? Very important issue so I am truly interested in hearing how this can be achieved.

If you read through the docs, there was a blurb backed with actual stats that there were enough URM black and hispanic kids in level IV centers taking geometry in 8th to fill half a TJ freshman class, but they were not applying for TJ .

If the students are prepared, but not interested, for whatever reason, then lowering the standards to something almost any fcps can meet (algebra in 8th and low GPA cut off for middle school) is a huge mistake.

As a parent of a TJ kid, I think the bolded needs to be looked at. WHY are kids/parents not interested? (And some are overly interested.)

Why is it hard to understand that a 45+ minute commute to high school isn't desirable for a lot of kids especially if it means having to drop sports and activities.

It is almost comical that nobody has brought up the issue of peer groups as a reason why some of these qualified URMs are not choosing to attend TJ. Get a critical mass of URM students in there and then see if that changes the perception of TJ as an Asian/White magnet school.

I wholeheartedly support Dr. Brabrand and the SB on this issue.

No one perceives TJ as “Asian/White.” The student body was consistently 80% Asian, with the remaining 20% a mix of other races.

But in the past, all the TJ students had one thing in common: they were judged and admitted on the content of their academic achievement, rather than on the color of their skin.

Racist new criteria were introduced by Brabrand and the current SB.

How can you possibly support these racists, and their racist policies? It is all out in the open now (not to mention a focus on TJ admissions at the expense of dealing with the Covid-19 crisis).

I think you know the answer to this. This county has a lot of hard-core liberals and Democrats who supported changing TJ admissions, by whatever means necessary, and simply look at the process by which FCPS arrived at that decision, not matter how ugly and contrived, as a distraction that they'll dismiss as the "sausage-making."

I don't think for a second the goal of the White liberals was to increase the number of White students at TJ. It was to increase the number of Black, Hispanic, and FARMS kids at TJ so that they could burnish their own reputations as "allies" of those communities on a much broader range of social issues. Ultimately, it is very much about self-interest, and Asian kids are the sacrificial lambs in the process, but it's not just about increasing the percentage of White kids at TJ. Those families are just as happy to see their kids go to a Langley or a Lake Braddock, because they know their kids enjoy other advantages in life that make attending TJ less important to their future prospects.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow lots to read but thank you for the summary. Early identification of URM students and early mentoring can help achieve equity without discrimination against another group.

Whenever someone says this, my sense is always that what they really want is for admissions to stay exactly as it is so that kids who already have the advantage of early “mentoring” (in the form of parents who are highly interested in education) will continue to be the ones who go to TJ.

And to add, they don’t really have a strong interest in helping kids who have fewer advantages than their own kids.

I think realistically, people are all for the idea of having more underprivileged SES or racial minorities at TJ, and the real concern is just the watering down of standards. (The idea is that we should be ensuring that all kids have the education they need to do well at TJ, not just giving up and saying, eh, these kids can't compete so we'll lower the bar.)

The root (or a root) of the problem seems to be that some kids get more of a head start than others, and so realistically it seems like the best solution to this is to help give kids who aren't getting a 'leg up' from their parents to get that leg up as quickly as possible from the schools - through extra early resources. That's not a solution I've heard anyone rally against, which is what I'd expect if parents with more advantages were truly trying to keep kids with fewer advantages down. But it's also not a fast solution, and thus not popular with the district.

There are different opinions about this. Some experts have argued that the real problem is that bright minorities - the ones who would most benefit from being nurtured in a place like TJ - aren't always recognized as such. From that perspective, actions which would further obfuscate the landscape - like making the admissions process more promiscuous and flooding the school with marginally qualified students - would only serve to aggravate the fundamental problem.

In some ways, the picture we've been given has been self-contradictory. On one hand, the students we're supposed to be helping are the bright, motivated ones who, due to poverty, have no time to invest in their studies. We've heard stories about how they're working odd jobs, babysitting siblings, and so on, meaning that their academics suffer out of practical necessity. At the same time, the students who the system is set up to help are lower income students with perfect GPAs, which seems to catch something entirely different from what the previous example said we were missing.

[Anonymous]

“ On one hand, the students we're supposed to be helping are the bright, motivated ones who, due to poverty, have no time to invest in their studies. We've heard stories about how they're working odd jobs, babysitting siblings, and so on, meaning that their academics suffer out of practical necessity. At the same time, the students who the system is set up to help are lower income students with perfect GPAs, which seems to catch something entirely different from what the previous example said we were missing.”

I would say we should be helping the poor child with great grades and promise but who due to those extra demands on time and/or fewer family resources is less likely to have paid for test prep and private extracurricular things like higher quality stem camps etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow lots to read but thank you for the summary. Early identification of URM students and early mentoring can help achieve equity without discrimination against another group.

Agreed. But how do we do this? Very important issue so I am truly interested in hearing how this can be achieved.

I am no education expert. Teachers can start to identify gifted kids from K, you don’t have to be an advanced reader to be gifted. Maybe teachers need to figure how how to identify giftedness without assessing advanced reading and math skills. Parents play a big role in their child’s education and future. Unfortunately gifted kids will be left behind if they don’t have an involved parent. Each title one school should have a mentor for these kids, make sure they are doing what they need to stay on track. The mentor along with the AART should make sure these students to have what they need to thrive and be ready for TJ if that’s where they want to go.

Sloan Presidio told SB members that there wasn't a "pipeline issue" because there were sufficient numbers of Black and Hispanic students in 8th grade receiving AAP/LLIV services to fill TJ if they applied and were admitted.

But if you accepted this you had to think (1) participation in AAP equates to meeting the qualifications for TJ and (2) therefore, there was a problem with the admissions process that FCPS had to "fix."

A better analysis would have been to acknowledge that TJ had been screening for a higher level of qualification than simply meeting the threshold for AAP/LLIV services, and that FCPS still had work to do to challenge its Black and Hispanic students in AAP/LLIV. Instead, in the rush to change the TJ demographics, the baby was thrown out with the bath water, and objective measures of qualification were tossed aside in favor of experience factors that, as Brabrand's emails make clear, Brabrand made sure were reverse-engineered to produce the result that he wanted.

Yet the new admission process disadvantages kids in AAP as quotas are allocated by school of attendance rather than base school. For the class of 2025, they screwed over URMS in AAP for lesser qualified candidates.