attractive workers and your DH

[Anonymous]

I feel bad for men who are worried about being falsely accused of SH. I also feel bad for women who have been harassed and r***d.

Note that the underlying cause in both cases is people who r**e. If those people didn’t exist, #metoo wouldn’t be a thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My boss goes golfing with the men in our office. Nothing with women. Another one ripe for a lawsuit.

First, you need to read up on employment law if you think this is a lawsuit. Second, good luck with that, I suppose you could force a settlement and never be hired anywhere else again.

Women have their own advantage when they are young and attractive. Men want to be around them

Okay, so maybe not a lawsuit, but I happen to know that the higher-ups are aware of it and it has taken him down several notches in their estimation. It’s tone deaf.

I'm recently retired and over the past five or so years I really backed off one on one mentoring when 15 years ago one on one mentoring was almost a requirement for advancement. The first issue that arose was favoritism and then it became never be one on one with a female especially outside the office. I did do some group mentoring but it wasn't nearly as effective as one on one when you can really coach a junior person. Mentoring is tremendous for an individuals career development but when HR makes it a headache then it's why bother?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For everyone who keeps suggesting that men are opening themselves up to liability by mentoring one gender and not the other, you're missing a key component in the risk analysis.

If a man is accused of treating women differently by not mentoring them, the woman files a discrimination complaint and is required to prove her claim.

If a woman accuses a man of an inappropriate overture, true or not, the accusation is the conviction and that man's career will be forever affected by that.

In the final analysis, many men would rather take their chances with a jury in the court system than be convicted by accusation.

Do you really feel that you cannot be one on one with a female colleague without making an inappropriate overture?

Or do you think that women are just crazily accusing random men of sexual harassment/assault?
And if the women are just crazy, then what does it matter if you *really* met 1:1 with them or not? Couldn’t they accuse you either way? In fact, wouldn’t it be LESS likely that they would accuse someone they know to be kind and respectful vs someone they just see around the office?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For everyone who keeps suggesting that men are opening themselves up to liability by mentoring one gender and not the other, you're missing a key component in the risk analysis.

If a man is accused of treating women differently by not mentoring them, the woman files a discrimination complaint and is required to prove her claim.

If a woman accuses a man of an inappropriate overture, true or not, the accusation is the conviction and that man's career will be forever affected by that.

In the final analysis, many men would rather take their chances with a jury in the court system than be convicted by accusation.

Do you really feel that you cannot be one on one with a female colleague without making an inappropriate overture?

Or do you think that women are just crazily accusing random men of sexual harassment/assault?
And if the women are just crazy, then what does it matter if you *really* met 1:1 with them or not? Couldn’t they accuse you either way? In fact, wouldn’t it be LESS likely that they would accuse someone they know to be kind and respectful vs someone they just see around the office?

DP. +1. I don't understand this attitude at all. Men who feel this way appear to think either (1) they don't understand how to interact with women without harassing them, or (2) there is a significant risk that a woman will falsely accuse them of sexual harassment (why?). Somehow I make it through my days without sexually harassing people, nor have I ever been falsely accused of doing so. And yet this baseline level of professional competency somehow eludes large numbers of men.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For everyone who keeps suggesting that men are opening themselves up to liability by mentoring one gender and not the other, you're missing a key component in the risk analysis.

If a man is accused of treating women differently by not mentoring them, the woman files a discrimination complaint and is required to prove her claim.

If a woman accuses a man of an inappropriate overture, true or not, the accusation is the conviction and that man's career will be forever affected by that.

In the final analysis, many men would rather take their chances with a jury in the court system than be convicted by accusation.

Do you really feel that you cannot be one on one with a female colleague without making an inappropriate overture?

Or do you think that women are just crazily accusing random men of sexual harassment/assault?
And if the women are just crazy, then what does it matter if you *really* met 1:1 with them or not? Couldn’t they accuse you either way? In fact, wouldn’t it be LESS likely that they would accuse someone they know to be kind and respectful vs someone they just see around the office?

DP. +1. I don't understand this attitude at all. Men who feel this way appear to think either (1) they don't understand how to interact with women without harassing them, or (2) there is a significant risk that a woman will falsely accuse them of sexual harassment (why?). Somehow I make it through my days without sexually harassing people, nor have I ever been falsely accused of doing so. And yet this baseline level of professional competency somehow eludes large numbers of men.

I don’t get this either. If women are just out there falsely accusing people (by the way, this doesn’t do much for her career either), then what does it matter if you actually have a work relationship or not? If someone is willing to lie about this, then I would think they would be willing to lie about whether or not you ate lunch together.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For everyone who keeps suggesting that men are opening themselves up to liability by mentoring one gender and not the other, you're missing a key component in the risk analysis.

If a man is accused of treating women differently by not mentoring them, the woman files a discrimination complaint and is required to prove her claim.

If a woman accuses a man of an inappropriate overture, true or not, the accusation is the conviction and that man's career will be forever affected by that.

In the final analysis, many men would rather take their chances with a jury in the court system than be convicted by accusation.

Do you really feel that you cannot be one on one with a female colleague without making an inappropriate overture?

Or do you think that women are just crazily accusing random men of sexual harassment/assault?
And if the women are just crazy, then what does it matter if you *really* met 1:1 with them or not? Couldn’t they accuse you either way? In fact, wouldn’t it be LESS likely that they would accuse someone they know to be kind and respectful vs someone they just see around the office?

DP. +1. I don't understand this attitude at all. Men who feel this way appear to think either (1) they don't understand how to interact with women without harassing them, or (2) there is a significant risk that a woman will falsely accuse them of sexual harassment (why?). Somehow I make it through my days without sexually harassing people, nor have I ever been falsely accused of doing so. And yet this baseline level of professional competency somehow eludes large numbers of men.

It is the risk/reward though. And yes, lots of guys think lots of women make up claims of harassment or otherwise inappropriate behavior when they are mad about things. Whether true or not, there is very little upside to these one-on-one interactions for a higher-up, and a huge downside risk, even if the probability is low.

And my guess is that you are a woman, so you don't get the dynamic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For everyone who keeps suggesting that men are opening themselves up to liability by mentoring one gender and not the other, you're missing a key component in the risk analysis.

If a man is accused of treating women differently by not mentoring them, the woman files a discrimination complaint and is required to prove her claim.

If a woman accuses a man of an inappropriate overture, true or not, the accusation is the conviction and that man's career will be forever affected by that.

In the final analysis, many men would rather take their chances with a jury in the court system than be convicted by accusation.

Do you really feel that you cannot be one on one with a female colleague without making an inappropriate overture?

Or do you think that women are just crazily accusing random men of sexual harassment/assault?
And if the women are just crazy, then what does it matter if you *really* met 1:1 with them or not? Couldn’t they accuse you either way? In fact, wouldn’t it be LESS likely that they would accuse someone they know to be kind and respectful vs someone they just see around the office?

DP. +1. I don't understand this attitude at all. Men who feel this way appear to think either (1) they don't understand how to interact with women without harassing them, or (2) there is a significant risk that a woman will falsely accuse them of sexual harassment (why?). Somehow I make it through my days without sexually harassing people, nor have I ever been falsely accused of doing so. And yet this baseline level of professional competency somehow eludes large numbers of men.

It is the risk/reward though. And yes, lots of guys think lots of women make up claims of harassment or otherwise inappropriate behavior when they are mad about things. Whether true or not, there is very little upside to these one-on-one interactions for a higher-up, and a huge downside risk, even if the probability is low.

And my guess is that you are a woman, so you don't get the dynamic.

I don’t get it either. Why would she be willing to lie about assault or harassment, but not be willing to lie about sharing a bloomin’ onion?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For everyone who keeps suggesting that men are opening themselves up to liability by mentoring one gender and not the other, you're missing a key component in the risk analysis.

If a man is accused of treating women differently by not mentoring them, the woman files a discrimination complaint and is required to prove her claim.

If a woman accuses a man of an inappropriate overture, true or not, the accusation is the conviction and that man's career will be forever affected by that.

In the final analysis, many men would rather take their chances with a jury in the court system than be convicted by accusation.

Do you really feel that you cannot be one on one with a female colleague without making an inappropriate overture?

Or do you think that women are just crazily accusing random men of sexual harassment/assault?
And if the women are just crazy, then what does it matter if you *really* met 1:1 with them or not? Couldn’t they accuse you either way? In fact, wouldn’t it be LESS likely that they would accuse someone they know to be kind and respectful vs someone they just see around the office?

DP. +1. I don't understand this attitude at all. Men who feel this way appear to think either (1) they don't understand how to interact with women without harassing them, or (2) there is a significant risk that a woman will falsely accuse them of sexual harassment (why?). Somehow I make it through my days without sexually harassing people, nor have I ever been falsely accused of doing so. And yet this baseline level of professional competency somehow eludes large numbers of men.

It is the risk/reward though. And yes, lots of guys think lots of women make up claims of harassment or otherwise inappropriate behavior when they are mad about things. Whether true or not, there is very little upside to these one-on-one interactions for a higher-up, and a huge downside risk, even if the probability is low.

And my guess is that you are a woman, so you don't get the dynamic.

Because I'm a woman, I must not understand workplace dynamics between men and women? With an attitude like that, I can see why you personally are reluctant to interact with women in the workplace. There are no data to support the idea that lots of women invent claims of sexual harassment at work. I've personally never seen such a claim, true or untrue, become public knowledge or result in any consequences, and I've been in biglaw for 13 years. As with rape, there are vastly more incidents that are never reported than there are instances of false reporting. If you feel like a target, there's probably a good reason for that.

[Anonymous]

A male friend of mine was sexually harassed at work. It was ongoing and he did a good job documenting it. The woman who did it received mild discipline and ended up being transferred to another department.

A female friend of mine was repeatedly, sexually harassed (really she was sexually assaulted) by a lesbian manager, and nothing happened to the manager.

[Anonymous]

Mid 40s man, BigLaw partner over a large practice group. I still do one on one mentoring with some younger women but I am rare now. I have been cautioned by HR about it but it's not forbidden.

As a humblebrag, I have a lot of emotional intelligence so I know the line between being warm, charming and being inappropriate. But for some people, men especially it awkward and the easy thing is to avoid it.

Is the metoo movement necessary? Of course. Are there false accusations? Of course. The danger is a firm like mine just gets rid of people who are accused. We canned a male associate whom a female associate said was uncomfortable because he flirted with her at a happy hour. Just flirting. No idea if he was, but it's easier and cheaper to get rid of someone then investigate it and then worry about someone doing a tell all at AboveTheLaw about the firm that retained a predator.

We have a women in the law mentoring group but the anonymous truth is it's worthless because the women don't do a lot out of the office and few of them control business.

So the truth is a few rotten apples (the true harassers and the false claims women) have destroyed the warmth that is necessary for mentoring across sexes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For everyone who keeps suggesting that men are opening themselves up to liability by mentoring one gender and not the other, you're missing a key component in the risk analysis.

If a man is accused of treating women differently by not mentoring them, the woman files a discrimination complaint and is required to prove her claim.

If a woman accuses a man of an inappropriate overture, true or not, the accusation is the conviction and that man's career will be forever affected by that.

In the final analysis, many men would rather take their chances with a jury in the court system than be convicted by accusation.

Do you really feel that you cannot be one on one with a female colleague without making an inappropriate overture?

Or do you think that women are just crazily accusing random men of sexual harassment/assault?
And if the women are just crazy, then what does it matter if you *really* met 1:1 with them or not? Couldn’t they accuse you either way? In fact, wouldn’t it be LESS likely that they would accuse someone they know to be kind and respectful vs someone they just see around the office?

DP. +1. I don't understand this attitude at all. Men who feel this way appear to think either (1) they don't understand how to interact with women without harassing them, or (2) there is a significant risk that a woman will falsely accuse them of sexual harassment (why?). Somehow I make it through my days without sexually harassing people, nor have I ever been falsely accused of doing so. And yet this baseline level of professional competency somehow eludes large numbers of men.

It is the risk/reward though. And yes, lots of guys think lots of women make up claims of harassment or otherwise inappropriate behavior when they are mad about things. Whether true or not, there is very little upside to these one-on-one interactions for a higher-up, and a huge downside risk, even if the probability is low.

And my guess is that you are a woman, so you don't get the dynamic.

I don’t get it either. Why would she be willing to lie about assault or harassment, but not be willing to lie about sharing a bloomin’ onion?

New poster here, I don't care about a false accusation of somewhere I can prove I wasn't at. Easy to open and shut the case. It's worrisome if someone accused me of being inappropriate at a one on one happy hour. Then it's sort of irrelevant what I actually did because all that matters is her feelings and then how replaceable I am.

I think the false claims are very rare but if men have a choice to avoid it all together, I don't blame them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My boss goes golfing with the men in our office. Nothing with women. Another one ripe for a lawsuit.

First, you need to read up on employment law if you think this is a lawsuit. Second, good luck with that, I suppose you could force a settlement and never be hired anywhere else again.

Women have their own advantage when they are young and attractive. Men want to be around them

What if you’re an old and ugly woman? What then?

Honesty, it makes it easy. No one is remotely worried about being one on one with someone they will never sleep with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While my wife doesn't get a say in who my company hires to work for me (obviously), she does not want me to have dinner or drinks with my female subordinates. I think it's petty but it's not worth the fight. So I do lunch with the women (in groups only) and drinks with the men.

And this is why women have trouble advancing in the workplace.

Don’t blame it on the men who have gotten very gun shy due to #metoo.

If they’re not sexually harassing anyone, I’m not clear why they’d be gun shy.

When you're one on one, it's always a concern for men. I wouldn't mentor a female outside the workplace. If you want your face time do it in the office.

Agree. My wife wouldn't be jealous at all. But I would never have one-on-one drinks or dinner with any women subordinate. Consequently, I also don't have one-on-one drinks or dinner with males subordinates because I think that's unfair to women. So I either have group get togethers outside of work, or nothing.

But I will certainly not set myself up for any sort of claim of bias or harassment.

This is a fair and thoughtful approach. I don’t have a problem with men choosing not to participate in certain activities with ALL subordinates/colleagues, but if they engage in specific networking activities with men but NOT with women - that’s a problem.

Why is that a problem? There are networking groups for every ethnic minority out there and lots specifically for women. The only problem is your perception that it is. Men can and should network specifically with their own gender.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My DH is an adult who is capable of making his own decisions about these things. I am not going to micromanage his professional relationships with doctors or colleagues and I wouldn't want him doing that to me.

Men and women are completely capable of having professional, non-sexual interactions.

This. Also our nanny was smoking hot, she was amazing at childcare, and my husband did not sleep with her or harass her, because he's not an asshole.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Mid 40s man, BigLaw partner over a large practice group. I still do one on one mentoring with some younger women but I am rare now. I have been cautioned by HR about it but it's not forbidden.

As a humblebrag, I have a lot of emotional intelligence so I know the line between being warm, charming and being inappropriate. But for some people, men especially it awkward and the easy thing is to avoid it.

Is the metoo movement necessary? Of course. Are there false accusations? Of course. The danger is a firm like mine just gets rid of people who are accused. We canned a male associate whom a female associate said was uncomfortable because he flirted with her at a happy hour. Just flirting. No idea if he was, but it's easier and cheaper to get rid of someone then investigate it and then worry about someone doing a tell all at AboveTheLaw about the firm that retained a predator.

We have a women in the law mentoring group but the anonymous truth is it's worthless because the women don't do a lot out of the office and few of them control business.

So the truth is a few rotten apples (the true harassers and the false claims women) have destroyed the warmth that is necessary for mentoring across sexes.

I get that. I suppose that if you don’t know how to talk to people without making them feel unsafe, then it’s probably best to just stay out of it.

I work in medicine, and while there is definitely sexism prevalent at every level, I don’t see this lack of mentoring between men and women. Maybe that’s because we all have twenty interactions a day that could potentially end in career ending lawsuits.