UVA Gang rape

[Anonymous]

Well, what do we know? We know that other rapes at UVA have occurred, one that took 20 years to prosecute where the victim only learned it was a gang rape 20 years after the fact. A couple of rapes where the perpetrators admitted guilt and were suspended but not expelled and nothing was reported to the police.

I have read many articles on this, and the commonality that strikes me is that no UVA alums are surprised at the rape allegations and many echo how rape/sexual assault are routinely brushed under the rug.

All of these are not allegations of both parties having too much to drink and one regretting it in the morning. These are repeated allegations of violent rape occurring and being ignored.

The total lack of surprise and resigned acceptance of this very serious problem by everyone that has a connection to UVA is the story here. I agree with the RS author.

This is not the Duke story. This is very different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wish we'd stop arguing about the nitty gritty of this particular case, and start talking about the greater wrong, which is indisputable. I am the PP who was asked by another PP what we can do about this, and I do not know. But I'd like the discussion to turn to that. There is so much that needs to change for our kids to be safe. (Girls and boys) Can we brainstorm a bit on what we can do that is productive?

Ban sexual violence from video games? That seems an obvious start.

Iceland just banned pornography. That should be up for discussion. Germany just created a law that 30% of the leadership in any business needs to be female. That'd go over like a lead balloon in our quota-hating society, but I think it'd be good for us. What else?

Assemblies about sexual violence at high schools? By reformed offenders, or by survivors (though I don't want to put the burden on them.)

I went to a progressive school on the West Coast, and while I have no doubt there were things like this that occurred from time to time it was in no way entrenched in the culture the way it seems to be at UVA. UVA has a patriarchal and antiquated culture, which is pretty unique to the south, and the students obviously totally buy into it. I don't want my daughter to wear pearls to football games or talk about her ancestors at parties with men in pastel pants who think its okay to be rapists. The trappings lure people in, and they think its all charming and old money and preppy, but its just a veneer over a culture of male dominance and endorsement of objectification of women. I am not sure about the scope of the problem at other schools, but I do know women are entering colleges at larger numbers than their male peers and are doing better academically than ever before. I also think we as a society are more aware than ever before. I am guessing that the odds of getting raped or assaulted at the average non total d-bag school like UVA are about equal to going to a bar, honestly. Odds go up if you are wasted or drugged. The issue I think so many of us feel with the UVA story is the school's endorsement of the behavior.

While I initially thought this article was a little fishy, it's this evasive email response that gives the game away. Trying to change the subject rather than just saying "we have lots of supporting information on file" makes it pretty clear there are significant weaknesses in the story. Wait and see.

[Anonymous]

If a girl was gang raped outside of a college campus, the perp would be prosecuted like every other rapist. Why do university's have the right to protect the rapists?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Well, what do we know? We know that other rapes at UVA have occurred, one that took 20 years to prosecute where the victim only learned it was a gang rape 20 years after the fact. A couple of rapes where the perpetrators admitted guilt and were suspended but not expelled and nothing was reported to the police.

I have read many articles on this, and the commonality that strikes me is that no UVA alums are surprised at the rape allegations and many echo how rape/sexual assault are routinely brushed under the rug.

All of these are not allegations of both parties having too much to drink and one regretting it in the morning. These are repeated allegations of violent rape occurring and being ignored.

The total lack of surprise and resigned acceptance of this very serious problem by everyone that has a connection to UVA is the story here. I agree with the RS author.

This is not the Duke story. This is very different.

I agree it's good to talk about the issues with rape in frats and at UVA. The question is whether or not this particular story in the RS was fabricated in any way, shape or form. If so, saying it's about the larger issue, not the story itself, is bad news. There's a lot of 'the end justifies the means' going around lately. I wholeheartedly reject that concept.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I agree it's good to talk about the issues with rape in frats and at UVA. The question is whether or not this particular story in the RS was fabricated in any way, shape or form. If so, saying it's about the larger issue, not the story itself, is bad news. There's a lot of 'the end justifies the means' going around lately. I wholeheartedly reject that concept.

I haven't noticed anybody saying "the end justifies the means". I have noticed a lot of people saying, "Rape and sexual assault are a systemic problem at UVa." I guess it's possible that there are appalling numbers of confirmed rapes, but nonetheless Jackie is lying about this particular one. Alternatively, one might assume that she's not lying.

[Anonymous]

Personally, I choose to believe that a woman is not fabricating something so traumatic as what is described in this article. I understand logically that a policy of taking such accusations seriously and trusting that the victim is reporting accurately may result in false allegations a very small percentage of the time. Given how many other people would prefer to believe that no nice college boys could possibly do something like this and that this woman must be a fame-seeking crazy, I strongly suspect that the rights of rapists are well protected by others. I choose to care more about the life of the victim and how it's already damaged than the remote possibility that the victim is lying.

[Anonymous]

I posted this on another thread, but will post again here:
I believe most of it. I knew two women who were gang raped in similar situations in frats while I was in college; they were not "duped" but sounded like they were incredibly fall-down drunk/stoned. Both became pregnant (which is the only reason I heard about it) and both had people tell them what happened after they realized something was wrong. The guys called it "riding the train" when they referred to the incident. (Not at UVA, by the way, but at schools with large DC-area student bodies.)

Nothing ever happened to the frat guys. Most were fairly wealthy, at least upper middle class as were the girls. The administration knew it was happening and did get security to do sweeps to "round up" the really drunk girls they found outside frat houses and deliver them to a safer place to sober up, so they would be less likely to be victimized. Seriously. Nothing was ever reported to police.

One girl gave the child up for adoption, the other decided to have an abortion. I just assume there were many many other stories I did not hear if the girls did not get pregnant due to: preexisting use of birth control, enough knowledge or bravery to go to the ER for treatment, or just plain luck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I believe she was told that Charlottesville police had no jurisdiction over University. It was a coverup by the Univ., and like all coverups. It blew up in their face.

It's such bullshit if it's true. She has no business running a university if she is this naive.

NP. The victim was told the Charlottesville police had no jurisdiction. And yes, the victim was a naive freshman, which the frats targeted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am stunned that the victim's friends were so cold and uncaring, despite her obvious distress and what sounds like visible injuries from being beaten. When I think back to my freshman year of college i can not imagine even one of my friends reacting that way, let alone a whole group of them. Telling her she should have enjoyed it? That she'll be "that girl" and ruin their chances at getting into a sorority or fraternity? I just can't wrap my brain around the fact that it wasn't just one crappy (personality disordered) friend who treated her this way, but several, according to the article. And that their own social status was the first thing they thought of upon seeing her immediately afterward in obvious physical and emotional distress. Unfathomable.

Not to mention that these seven men behaved so monstrously, as a pack. How is that possible? I always thought it would take a sociopath to rape, beat and torture a woman, but that these seven young men did this together is chilling.

Isn't it pack behavior? When you have one street dog, it is benign but when several dogs run around together, they become much more aggressive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I posted this on another thread, but will post again here:
I believe most of it. I knew two women who were gang raped in similar situations in frats while I was in college; they were not "duped" but sounded like they were incredibly fall-down drunk/stoned. Both became pregnant (which is the only reason I heard about it) and both had people tell them what happened after they realized something was wrong. The guys called it "riding the train" when they referred to the incident. (Not at UVA, by the way, but at schools with large DC-area student bodies.)

Nothing ever happened to the frat guys. Most were fairly wealthy, at least upper middle class as were the girls. The administration knew it was happening and did get security to do sweeps to "round up" the really drunk girls they found outside frat houses and deliver them to a safer place to sober up, so they would be less likely to be victimized. Seriously. Nothing was ever reported to police.

One girl gave the child up for adoption, the other decided to have an abortion. I just assume there were many many other stories I did not hear if the girls did not get pregnant due to: preexisting use of birth control, enough knowledge or bravery to go to the ER for treatment, or just plain luck.

So awful. I'd heard the expression "riding the train" before but until this thread, I never knew what it meant. I assumed it had something to do with consuming copious amounts of beer. Now I really wish that's all it were!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am stunned that the victim's friends were so cold and uncaring, despite her obvious distress and what sounds like visible injuries from being beaten. When I think back to my freshman year of college i can not imagine even one of my friends reacting that way, let alone a whole group of them. Telling her she should have enjoyed it? That she'll be "that girl" and ruin their chances at getting into a sorority or fraternity? I just can't wrap my brain around the fact that it wasn't just one crappy (personality disordered) friend who treated her this way, but several, according to the article. And that their own social status was the first thing they thought of upon seeing her immediately afterward in obvious physical and emotional distress. Unfathomable.

Not to mention that these seven men behaved so monstrously, as a pack. How is that possible? I always thought it would take a sociopath to rape, beat and torture a woman, but that these seven young men did this together is chilling.

Isn't it pack behavior? When you have one street dog, it is benign but when several dogs run around together, they become much more aggressive.

It is called mob mentality and it starts at a very young age.

Your son.. all by himself will not pick up a stone and throw it at somebody.
Your son... with 1 or 2 friends might be convinced to throw a stone at somebody if the others are doing it and getting away with it.
Add 1 crazy but influential friend and your son is with a group of boys that attack a smaller boy with stones and you are stunned that your son would do something like this.

Google mob mentality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Personally, I choose to believe that a woman is not fabricating something so traumatic as what is described in this article. I understand logically that a policy of taking such accusations seriously and trusting that the victim is reporting accurately may result in false allegations a very small percentage of the time. Given how many other people would prefer to believe that no nice college boys could possibly do something like this and that this woman must be a fame-seeking crazy, I strongly suspect that the rights of rapists are well protected by others. I choose to care more about the life of the victim and how it's already damaged than the remote possibility that the victim is lying.

If you care about civil liberties, and not simply demonizing men, you'd be more than mildly troubled by the juxtaposition of references to "campus rapes," which imply criminal behavior that could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and student behavior codes, which as interpreted by the Obama Administration's Department of Education, require schools to discipline students when single-person investigators, who may or may not have investigative skills and training, determine that it was "more likely than not" that an assualt occurred.

But I'm guessing that this doesn't matter much to you, since you seem supremely confident that there are only false allegations "a very small percentage of time." That's a conventional attitude, but God forbid it's ever your son who ends up in one of these kangaroo-court type proceedings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am stunned that the victim's friends were so cold and uncaring, despite her obvious distress and what sounds like visible injuries from being beaten. When I think back to my freshman year of college i can not imagine even one of my friends reacting that way, let alone a whole group of them. Telling her she should have enjoyed it? That she'll be "that girl" and ruin their chances at getting into a sorority or fraternity? I just can't wrap my brain around the fact that it wasn't just one crappy (personality disordered) friend who treated her this way, but several, according to the article. And that their own social status was the first thing they thought of upon seeing her immediately afterward in obvious physical and emotional distress. Unfathomable.

Not to mention that these seven men behaved so monstrously, as a pack. How is that possible? I always thought it would take a sociopath to rape, beat and torture a woman, but that these seven young men did this together is chilling.

Isn't it pack behavior? When you have one street dog, it is benign but when several dogs run around together, they become much more aggressive.

It is called mob mentality and it starts at a very young age.

Your son.. all by himself will not pick up a stone and throw it at somebody.
Your son... with 1 or 2 friends might be convinced to throw a stone at somebody if the others are doing it and getting away with it.
Add 1 crazy but influential friend and your son is with a group of boys that attack a smaller boy with stones and you are stunned that your son would do something like this.

Google mob mentality.

That could just as easily describe a group of women who collectively develop a convenient narrative that contains a combustible mix of true, imagined and wished-upon facts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

That could just as easily describe a group of women who collectively develop a convenient narrative that contains a combustible mix of true, imagined and wished-upon facts.

A group of people coming up with a group narrative is comparable to a group of people raping a person?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

That could just as easily describe a group of women who collectively develop a convenient narrative that contains a combustible mix of true, imagined and wished-upon facts.

A group of people coming up with a group narrative is comparable to a group of people raping a person?

If the narrative is a lie, yes... it is comparable.

But it isn't a lie so ... it's not.