Gaza war and College Campus Protests

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jews will never recover from what Israel has done in Palestine. World opinion is turning sharply against Israel and the effects will be felt by Jews wherever they live. The USA is an outlier, because Americans are both detached and stupid, but the college students are in the vanguard.

https://time.com/6559293/morning-consult-israel-global-opinion/

Let's differentiate between Jews and Zionists. As a Jew, I am revolted by Zionism and offended by the existence of Israel. Many of us feel this way.

Israel is an illegitimate country full of racist extremists, fundamentalist bigots, and opportunistic predators. It cannot, will not, and should not survive in its current form.

Most Israelis and nearly all of the objectionable ones may be Jewish, but please don't judge all Jewish people by these depraved and debauched examples of the group.

I don’t doubt this for a second, but the reality is that Israel is committing a genocide in the name of a Jewish state. The primary victims are, of course, those in Gaza, but all Jews and all Americans are now less safe due to the racism and extremism of Israel. We are globally reviled.

I dont believe the globally reviled propaganda. Most Arabs like America and like Jewish people and have family in America, where they are a religious minority on days like today along with Jews. They just want the killing to stop, and frankly that goes for any extremist right wingers whether homegrown or IDF or USA. The problem is economically a boy in Gaza has very little prospects unless he joins Hamas. The way to get the big bucks is to join the bad guys. The farmer or pharmacist isnt getting any dough.

Sort of. I would add to this that not all Hamas = terrorists. Some worked as policemen, teachers, healthcare workers, garbage collectors etc. so they were the pharmacist. They were the government.

But your point that some felt their future was hopeless is all too true. They were stateless, no passport, there was an air/land/sea blockage. No reparations for homes stolen. No ability to vote in a new party since 2006 (blocked by the PLO and Israel).

Now on top of hopeless they are broken and homeless and traumatized. But also likely angry and full of hatred. Not quite sure how this makes Israel safer long term.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So Palestinian terrorism is justified because, because, because. There is no peaceful way forward, terrorism is the only way to achieve anything? That's the argument? Anyone with a scintilla of civilized blood in their veins would reject that puerile, simplistic proposition. Of course, if you accept it, all bets are off - the Palestinians should keep inflicting terror. If you adhere to that idea, you've no basis for crying when the terrorists and their supporters are suppressed. So stop whining and accept that the current condition of the Gazans is self-inflicted even as you think their actions have some kind of utility in advancing their causes and redressing their grievances.

Never mind that the Arab states surrounding Israel mostly engage in political discourse and negotiations instead of violent aggression. Those countries have avoided any recent conflicts because they have stayed within their own borders, having learned from their past adventurism that attacking Israel achieves nothing but self-destruction, a diminution in their own borders, the loss of military capacity, and embarrassment on the world stage. Iran is still figuring that one out, as are the Houthis.

The Palestinians can try to re-fight the Israeli war for independence over and over again, obtaining the same results they did in 1948. You can cheer them on from the sidelines where it's safe, but encouraging them is to urge them to continue further aggravate their hopeless state of affairs.

Please suggest civilized ways currently available to the Palestinians to resist land grab and settlement expansion. I’ll wait.

Renounce terror to start with and go from there. Nothing will change as long as terror is the exclusive foreign policy pursued by the Palestinians. It matters not what alternatives they are offered, they consistently choose terror in the utterly absurd hope that such a path will result in the disappearance of Israel and its population and the return to the status quo ante of 1947, assuming they found the British Mandate a suitable form of governance and wouldn't complain just as much about that. The sheer imbecility of this course of action is astounding - no rational person could possibly conclude, after 75 years of failed efforts, that this is a viable path forward or that it forms the basis for a useful foreign policy and path to peaceful engagement with anyone.

The assertions here that terror is the only option available is equally idiotic - doing the same thing over and over and over, obtaining the same result over and over and over, and urging more of the same is irrational as well as ineffective. It's time for a change, and that change is not gong to be Israel packing up and dissolving itself, it has to be the Palestinians recognizing that trying to address their grievances through a corrupt government and terrorism is not only unproductive but affirmatively self-destructive. Trying a path without terrorism can only be an improvement, although that requires a rejection of sponsorship by Iran, which uses terror as an instrument of their own foreign policy. They do that through proxies like Hamas, to try to insulate themselves from direct retaliation but have no objections when their surrogates get hammered instead.

If the Palestinians reject terror, prospects for peace would increase exponentially. Continue to embrace terror, and the Palestinians will continue on a path towards obliteration, all while sympathizers decry the situation. The Palestinians can end the violence this moment by rejecting Hamas and all it stands for, and ensuring the release of the hostages. Or they can keep on keeping on. it's up to them - Hamas attacked on Oct. 7, not the IDF.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So Palestinian terrorism is justified because, because, because. There is no peaceful way forward, terrorism is the only way to achieve anything? That's the argument? Anyone with a scintilla of civilized blood in their veins would reject that puerile, simplistic proposition. Of course, if you accept it, all bets are off - the Palestinians should keep inflicting terror. If you adhere to that idea, you've no basis for crying when the terrorists and their supporters are suppressed. So stop whining and accept that the current condition of the Gazans is self-inflicted even as you think their actions have some kind of utility in advancing their causes and redressing their grievances.

Never mind that the Arab states surrounding Israel mostly engage in political discourse and negotiations instead of violent aggression. Those countries have avoided any recent conflicts because they have stayed within their own borders, having learned from their past adventurism that attacking Israel achieves nothing but self-destruction, a diminution in their own borders, the loss of military capacity, and embarrassment on the world stage. Iran is still figuring that one out, as are the Houthis.

The Palestinians can try to re-fight the Israeli war for independence over and over again, obtaining the same results they did in 1948. You can cheer them on from the sidelines where it's safe, but encouraging them is to urge them to continue further aggravate their hopeless state of affairs.

Please suggest civilized ways currently available to the Palestinians to resist land grab and settlement expansion. I’ll wait.

Renounce terror to start with and go from there. Nothing will change as long as terror is the exclusive foreign policy pursued by the Palestinians. It matters not what alternatives they are offered, they consistently choose terror in the utterly absurd hope that such a path will result in the disappearance of Israel and its population and the return to the status quo ante of 1947, assuming they found the British Mandate a suitable form of governance and wouldn't complain just as much about that. The sheer imbecility of this course of action is astounding - no rational person could possibly conclude, after 75 years of failed efforts, that this is a viable path forward or that it forms the basis for a useful foreign policy and path to peaceful engagement with anyone.

The assertions here that terror is the only option available is equally idiotic - doing the same thing over and over and over, obtaining the same result over and over and over, and urging more of the same is irrational as well as ineffective. It's time for a change, and that change is not gong to be Israel packing up and dissolving itself, it has to be the Palestinians recognizing that trying to address their grievances through a corrupt government and terrorism is not only unproductive but affirmatively self-destructive. Trying a path without terrorism can only be an improvement, although that requires a rejection of sponsorship by Iran, which uses terror as an instrument of their own foreign policy. They do that through proxies like Hamas, to try to insulate themselves from direct retaliation but have no objections when their surrogates get hammered instead.

If the Palestinians reject terror, prospects for peace would increase exponentially. Continue to embrace terror, and the Palestinians will continue on a path towards obliteration, all while sympathizers decry the situation. The Palestinians can end the violence this moment by rejecting Hamas and all it stands for, and ensuring the release of the hostages. Or they can keep on keeping on. it's up to them - Hamas attacked on Oct. 7, not the IDF.

Well said! Agree completely.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jews will never recover from what Israel has done in Palestine. World opinion is turning sharply against Israel and the effects will be felt by Jews wherever they live. The USA is an outlier, because Americans are both detached and stupid, but the college students are in the vanguard.

https://time.com/6559293/morning-consult-israel-global-opinion/

Let's differentiate between Jews and Zionists. As a Jew, I am revolted by Zionism and offended by the existence of Israel. Many of us feel this way.

Israel is an illegitimate country full of racist extremists, fundamentalist bigots, and opportunistic predators. It cannot, will not, and should not survive in its current form.

Most Israelis and nearly all of the objectionable ones may be Jewish, but please don't judge all Jewish people by these depraved and debauched examples of the group.

I don’t doubt this for a second, but the reality is that Israel is committing a genocide in the name of a Jewish state. The primary victims are, of course, those in Gaza, but all Jews and all Americans are now less safe due to the racism and extremism of Israel. We are globally reviled.

I dont believe the globally reviled propaganda. Most Arabs like America and like Jewish people and have family in America, where they are a religious minority on days like today along with Jews. They just want the killing to stop, and frankly that goes for any extremist right wingers whether homegrown or IDF or USA. The problem is economically a boy in Gaza has very little prospects unless he joins Hamas. The way to get the big bucks is to join the bad guys. The farmer or pharmacist isnt getting any dough.

Sort of. I would add to this that not all Hamas = terrorists. Some worked as policemen, teachers, healthcare workers, garbage collectors etc. so they were the pharmacist. They were the government.

But your point that some felt their future was hopeless is all too true. They were stateless, no passport, there was an air/land/sea blockage. No reparations for homes stolen. No ability to vote in a new party since 2006 (blocked by the PLO and Israel).

Now on top of hopeless they are broken and homeless and traumatized. But also likely angry and full of hatred. Not quite sure how this makes Israel safer long term.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So Palestinian terrorism is justified because, because, because. There is no peaceful way forward, terrorism is the only way to achieve anything? That's the argument? Anyone with a scintilla of civilized blood in their veins would reject that puerile, simplistic proposition. Of course, if you accept it, all bets are off - the Palestinians should keep inflicting terror. If you adhere to that idea, you've no basis for crying when the terrorists and their supporters are suppressed. So stop whining and accept that the current condition of the Gazans is self-inflicted even as you think their actions have some kind of utility in advancing their causes and redressing their grievances.

Never mind that the Arab states surrounding Israel mostly engage in political discourse and negotiations instead of violent aggression. Those countries have avoided any recent conflicts because they have stayed within their own borders, having learned from their past adventurism that attacking Israel achieves nothing but self-destruction, a diminution in their own borders, the loss of military capacity, and embarrassment on the world stage. Iran is still figuring that one out, as are the Houthis.

The Palestinians can try to re-fight the Israeli war for independence over and over again, obtaining the same results they did in 1948. You can cheer them on from the sidelines where it's safe, but encouraging them is to urge them to continue further aggravate their hopeless state of affairs.

Please suggest civilized ways currently available to the Palestinians to resist land grab and settlement expansion. I’ll wait.

Renounce terror to start with and go from there. Nothing will change as long as terror is the exclusive foreign policy pursued by the Palestinians. It matters not what alternatives they are offered, they consistently choose terror in the utterly absurd hope that such a path will result in the disappearance of Israel and its population and the return to the status quo ante of 1947, assuming they found the British Mandate a suitable form of governance and wouldn't complain just as much about that. The sheer imbecility of this course of action is astounding - no rational person could possibly conclude, after 75 years of failed efforts, that this is a viable path forward or that it forms the basis for a useful foreign policy and path to peaceful engagement with anyone.

The assertions here that terror is the only option available is equally idiotic - doing the same thing over and over and over, obtaining the same result over and over and over, and urging more of the same is irrational as well as ineffective. It's time for a change, and that change is not gong to be Israel packing up and dissolving itself, it has to be the Palestinians recognizing that trying to address their grievances through a corrupt government and terrorism is not only unproductive but affirmatively self-destructive. Trying a path without terrorism can only be an improvement, although that requires a rejection of sponsorship by Iran, which uses terror as an instrument of their own foreign policy. They do that through proxies like Hamas, to try to insulate themselves from direct retaliation but have no objections when their surrogates get hammered instead.

If the Palestinians reject terror, prospects for peace would increase exponentially. Continue to embrace terror, and the Palestinians will continue on a path towards obliteration, all while sympathizers decry the situation. The Palestinians can end the violence this moment by rejecting Hamas and all it stands for, and ensuring the release of the hostages. Or they can keep on keeping on. it's up to them - Hamas attacked on Oct. 7, not the IDF.

So much bloviating just to say “the beatings will continue until morale improves”.

Also, it’s very interesting how terrorism as an effective tool of “getting one’s way” is literally the tl/dr of Israel’s actual founding as a nation - but now, since YOU and the Zionist agenda are happy with where the balance of power stands in the region, it’s now an unacceptable, contemptible approach.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So Palestinian terrorism is justified because, because, because. There is no peaceful way forward, terrorism is the only way to achieve anything? That's the argument? Anyone with a scintilla of civilized blood in their veins would reject that puerile, simplistic proposition. Of course, if you accept it, all bets are off - the Palestinians should keep inflicting terror. If you adhere to that idea, you've no basis for crying when the terrorists and their supporters are suppressed. So stop whining and accept that the current condition of the Gazans is self-inflicted even as you think their actions have some kind of utility in advancing their causes and redressing their grievances.

Never mind that the Arab states surrounding Israel mostly engage in political discourse and negotiations instead of violent aggression. Those countries have avoided any recent conflicts because they have stayed within their own borders, having learned from their past adventurism that attacking Israel achieves nothing but self-destruction, a diminution in their own borders, the loss of military capacity, and embarrassment on the world stage. Iran is still figuring that one out, as are the Houthis.

The Palestinians can try to re-fight the Israeli war for independence over and over again, obtaining the same results they did in 1948. You can cheer them on from the sidelines where it's safe, but encouraging them is to urge them to continue further aggravate their hopeless state of affairs.

Please suggest civilized ways currently available to the Palestinians to resist land grab and settlement expansion. I’ll wait.

Renounce terror to start with and go from there. Nothing will change as long as terror is the exclusive foreign policy pursued by the Palestinians. It matters not what alternatives they are offered, they consistently choose terror in the utterly absurd hope that such a path will result in the disappearance of Israel and its population and the return to the status quo ante of 1947, assuming they found the British Mandate a suitable form of governance and wouldn't complain just as much about that. The sheer imbecility of this course of action is astounding - no rational person could possibly conclude, after 75 years of failed efforts, that this is a viable path forward or that it forms the basis for a useful foreign policy and path to peaceful engagement with anyone.

The assertions here that terror is the only option available is equally idiotic - doing the same thing over and over and over, obtaining the same result over and over and over, and urging more of the same is irrational as well as ineffective. It's time for a change, and that change is not gong to be Israel packing up and dissolving itself, it has to be the Palestinians recognizing that trying to address their grievances through a corrupt government and terrorism is not only unproductive but affirmatively self-destructive. Trying a path without terrorism can only be an improvement, although that requires a rejection of sponsorship by Iran, which uses terror as an instrument of their own foreign policy. They do that through proxies like Hamas, to try to insulate themselves from direct retaliation but have no objections when their surrogates get hammered instead.

If the Palestinians reject terror, prospects for peace would increase exponentially. Continue to embrace terror, and the Palestinians will continue on a path towards obliteration, all while sympathizers decry the situation. The Palestinians can end the violence this moment by rejecting Hamas and all it stands for, and ensuring the release of the hostages. Or they can keep on keeping on. it's up to them - Hamas attacked on Oct. 7, not the IDF.

PLO has renounced violence and recognized Israel. I note it accomplished 0% in terms of stopping land grab.

Again, please suggest civilized ways to stop settlement expansion.

Also, when do settlers get to renounce violence?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So Palestinian terrorism is justified because, because, because. There is no peaceful way forward, terrorism is the only way to achieve anything? That's the argument? Anyone with a scintilla of civilized blood in their veins would reject that puerile, simplistic proposition. Of course, if you accept it, all bets are off - the Palestinians should keep inflicting terror. If you adhere to that idea, you've no basis for crying when the terrorists and their supporters are suppressed. So stop whining and accept that the current condition of the Gazans is self-inflicted even as you think their actions have some kind of utility in advancing their causes and redressing their grievances.

Never mind that the Arab states surrounding Israel mostly engage in political discourse and negotiations instead of violent aggression. Those countries have avoided any recent conflicts because they have stayed within their own borders, having learned from their past adventurism that attacking Israel achieves nothing but self-destruction, a diminution in their own borders, the loss of military capacity, and embarrassment on the world stage. Iran is still figuring that one out, as are the Houthis.

The Palestinians can try to re-fight the Israeli war for independence over and over again, obtaining the same results they did in 1948. You can cheer them on from the sidelines where it's safe, but encouraging them is to urge them to continue further aggravate their hopeless state of affairs.

Please suggest civilized ways currently available to the Palestinians to resist land grab and settlement expansion. I’ll wait.

Renounce terror to start with and go from there. Nothing will change as long as terror is the exclusive foreign policy pursued by the Palestinians. It matters not what alternatives they are offered, they consistently choose terror in the utterly absurd hope that such a path will result in the disappearance of Israel and its population and the return to the status quo ante of 1947, assuming they found the British Mandate a suitable form of governance and wouldn't complain just as much about that. The sheer imbecility of this course of action is astounding - no rational person could possibly conclude, after 75 years of failed efforts, that this is a viable path forward or that it forms the basis for a useful foreign policy and path to peaceful engagement with anyone.

The assertions here that terror is the only option available is equally idiotic - doing the same thing over and over and over, obtaining the same result over and over and over, and urging more of the same is irrational as well as ineffective. It's time for a change, and that change is not gong to be Israel packing up and dissolving itself, it has to be the Palestinians recognizing that trying to address their grievances through a corrupt government and terrorism is not only unproductive but affirmatively self-destructive. Trying a path without terrorism can only be an improvement, although that requires a rejection of sponsorship by Iran, which uses terror as an instrument of their own foreign policy. They do that through proxies like Hamas, to try to insulate themselves from direct retaliation but have no objections when their surrogates get hammered instead.

If the Palestinians reject terror, prospects for peace would increase exponentially. Continue to embrace terror, and the Palestinians will continue on a path towards obliteration, all while sympathizers decry the situation. The Palestinians can end the violence this moment by rejecting Hamas and all it stands for, and ensuring the release of the hostages. Or they can keep on keeping on. it's up to them - Hamas attacked on Oct. 7, not the IDF.

Typical brainwashed hasbara.

Israel never intended to coexist with the Arabs. The founding fathers of Zionism all wrote about the various ways to impoverish Arabs and push them across the border. That sentiment never stopped. The prevailing motto was best expressed by Golda Meir: when it comes to building illegal settlements, we don’t talk about it, we just do it.

And if the Arabs resist? Terrorists!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So Palestinian terrorism is justified because, because, because. There is no peaceful way forward, terrorism is the only way to achieve anything? That's the argument? Anyone with a scintilla of civilized blood in their veins would reject that puerile, simplistic proposition. Of course, if you accept it, all bets are off - the Palestinians should keep inflicting terror. If you adhere to that idea, you've no basis for crying when the terrorists and their supporters are suppressed. So stop whining and accept that the current condition of the Gazans is self-inflicted even as you think their actions have some kind of utility in advancing their causes and redressing their grievances.

Never mind that the Arab states surrounding Israel mostly engage in political discourse and negotiations instead of violent aggression. Those countries have avoided any recent conflicts because they have stayed within their own borders, having learned from their past adventurism that attacking Israel achieves nothing but self-destruction, a diminution in their own borders, the loss of military capacity, and embarrassment on the world stage. Iran is still figuring that one out, as are the Houthis.

The Palestinians can try to re-fight the Israeli war for independence over and over again, obtaining the same results they did in 1948. You can cheer them on from the sidelines where it's safe, but encouraging them is to urge them to continue further aggravate their hopeless state of affairs.

Please suggest civilized ways currently available to the Palestinians to resist land grab and settlement expansion. I’ll wait.

Renounce terror to start with and go from there. Nothing will change as long as terror is the exclusive foreign policy pursued by the Palestinians. It matters not what alternatives they are offered, they consistently choose terror in the utterly absurd hope that such a path will result in the disappearance of Israel and its population and the return to the status quo ante of 1947, assuming they found the British Mandate a suitable form of governance and wouldn't complain just as much about that. The sheer imbecility of this course of action is astounding - no rational person could possibly conclude, after 75 years of failed efforts, that this is a viable path forward or that it forms the basis for a useful foreign policy and path to peaceful engagement with anyone.

The assertions here that terror is the only option available is equally idiotic - doing the same thing over and over and over, obtaining the same result over and over and over, and urging more of the same is irrational as well as ineffective. It's time for a change, and that change is not gong to be Israel packing up and dissolving itself, it has to be the Palestinians recognizing that trying to address their grievances through a corrupt government and terrorism is not only unproductive but affirmatively self-destructive. Trying a path without terrorism can only be an improvement, although that requires a rejection of sponsorship by Iran, which uses terror as an instrument of their own foreign policy. They do that through proxies like Hamas, to try to insulate themselves from direct retaliation but have no objections when their surrogates get hammered instead.

If the Palestinians reject terror, prospects for peace would increase exponentially. Continue to embrace terror, and the Palestinians will continue on a path towards obliteration, all while sympathizers decry the situation. The Palestinians can end the violence this moment by rejecting Hamas and all it stands for, and ensuring the release of the hostages. Or they can keep on keeping on. it's up to them - Hamas attacked on Oct. 7, not the IDF.

PLO has renounced violence and recognized Israel. I note it accomplished 0% in terms of stopping land grab.

Again, please suggest civilized ways to stop settlement expansion.

Also, when do settlers get to renounce violence?

+1 (and wishing peace for all, even the radical, extremists on all sides)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So Palestinian terrorism is justified because, because, because. There is no peaceful way forward, terrorism is the only way to achieve anything? That's the argument? Anyone with a scintilla of civilized blood in their veins would reject that puerile, simplistic proposition. Of course, if you accept it, all bets are off - the Palestinians should keep inflicting terror. If you adhere to that idea, you've no basis for crying when the terrorists and their supporters are suppressed. So stop whining and accept that the current condition of the Gazans is self-inflicted even as you think their actions have some kind of utility in advancing their causes and redressing their grievances.

Never mind that the Arab states surrounding Israel mostly engage in political discourse and negotiations instead of violent aggression. Those countries have avoided any recent conflicts because they have stayed within their own borders, having learned from their past adventurism that attacking Israel achieves nothing but self-destruction, a diminution in their own borders, the loss of military capacity, and embarrassment on the world stage. Iran is still figuring that one out, as are the Houthis.

The Palestinians can try to re-fight the Israeli war for independence over and over again, obtaining the same results they did in 1948. You can cheer them on from the sidelines where it's safe, but encouraging them is to urge them to continue further aggravate their hopeless state of affairs.

Please suggest civilized ways currently available to the Palestinians to resist land grab and settlement expansion. I’ll wait.

Renounce terror to start with and go from there. Nothing will change as long as terror is the exclusive foreign policy pursued by the Palestinians. It matters not what alternatives they are offered, they consistently choose terror in the utterly absurd hope that such a path will result in the disappearance of Israel and its population and the return to the status quo ante of 1947, assuming they found the British Mandate a suitable form of governance and wouldn't complain just as much about that. The sheer imbecility of this course of action is astounding - no rational person could possibly conclude, after 75 years of failed efforts, that this is a viable path forward or that it forms the basis for a useful foreign policy and path to peaceful engagement with anyone.

The assertions here that terror is the only option available is equally idiotic - doing the same thing over and over and over, obtaining the same result over and over and over, and urging more of the same is irrational as well as ineffective. It's time for a change, and that change is not gong to be Israel packing up and dissolving itself, it has to be the Palestinians recognizing that trying to address their grievances through a corrupt government and terrorism is not only unproductive but affirmatively self-destructive. Trying a path without terrorism can only be an improvement, although that requires a rejection of sponsorship by Iran, which uses terror as an instrument of their own foreign policy. They do that through proxies like Hamas, to try to insulate themselves from direct retaliation but have no objections when their surrogates get hammered instead.

If the Palestinians reject terror, prospects for peace would increase exponentially. Continue to embrace terror, and the Palestinians will continue on a path towards obliteration, all while sympathizers decry the situation. The Palestinians can end the violence this moment by rejecting Hamas and all it stands for, and ensuring the release of the hostages. Or they can keep on keeping on. it's up to them - Hamas attacked on Oct. 7, not the IDF.

Typical brainwashed hasbara.

Israel never intended to coexist with the Arabs. The founding fathers of Zionism all wrote about the various ways to impoverish Arabs and push them across the border. That sentiment never stopped. The prevailing motto was best expressed by Golda Meir: when it comes to building illegal settlements, we don’t talk about it, we just do it.

And if the Arabs resist? Terrorists!!

+1 (and thank you - one of the more succinct history lessons based on actual facts that we’ve seen across these many threads over the past 15 months)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So Palestinian terrorism is justified because, because, because. There is no peaceful way forward, terrorism is the only way to achieve anything? That's the argument? Anyone with a scintilla of civilized blood in their veins would reject that puerile, simplistic proposition. Of course, if you accept it, all bets are off - the Palestinians should keep inflicting terror. If you adhere to that idea, you've no basis for crying when the terrorists and their supporters are suppressed. So stop whining and accept that the current condition of the Gazans is self-inflicted even as you think their actions have some kind of utility in advancing their causes and redressing their grievances.

Never mind that the Arab states surrounding Israel mostly engage in political discourse and negotiations instead of violent aggression. Those countries have avoided any recent conflicts because they have stayed within their own borders, having learned from their past adventurism that attacking Israel achieves nothing but self-destruction, a diminution in their own borders, the loss of military capacity, and embarrassment on the world stage. Iran is still figuring that one out, as are the Houthis.

The Palestinians can try to re-fight the Israeli war for independence over and over again, obtaining the same results they did in 1948. You can cheer them on from the sidelines where it's safe, but encouraging them is to urge them to continue further aggravate their hopeless state of affairs.

Please suggest civilized ways currently available to the Palestinians to resist land grab and settlement expansion. I’ll wait.

Renounce terror to start with and go from there. Nothing will change as long as terror is the exclusive foreign policy pursued by the Palestinians. It matters not what alternatives they are offered, they consistently choose terror in the utterly absurd hope that such a path will result in the disappearance of Israel and its population and the return to the status quo ante of 1947, assuming they found the British Mandate a suitable form of governance and wouldn't complain just as much about that. The sheer imbecility of this course of action is astounding - no rational person could possibly conclude, after 75 years of failed efforts, that this is a viable path forward or that it forms the basis for a useful foreign policy and path to peaceful engagement with anyone.

The assertions here that terror is the only option available is equally idiotic - doing the same thing over and over and over, obtaining the same result over and over and over, and urging more of the same is irrational as well as ineffective. It's time for a change, and that change is not gong to be Israel packing up and dissolving itself, it has to be the Palestinians recognizing that trying to address their grievances through a corrupt government and terrorism is not only unproductive but affirmatively self-destructive. Trying a path without terrorism can only be an improvement, although that requires a rejection of sponsorship by Iran, which uses terror as an instrument of their own foreign policy. They do that through proxies like Hamas, to try to insulate themselves from direct retaliation but have no objections when their surrogates get hammered instead.

If the Palestinians reject terror, prospects for peace would increase exponentially. Continue to embrace terror, and the Palestinians will continue on a path towards obliteration, all while sympathizers decry the situation. The Palestinians can end the violence this moment by rejecting Hamas and all it stands for, and ensuring the release of the hostages. Or they can keep on keeping on. it's up to them - Hamas attacked on Oct. 7, not the IDF.

PLO has renounced violence and recognized Israel. I note it accomplished 0% in terms of stopping land grab.

Again, please suggest civilized ways to stop settlement expansion.

Also, when do settlers get to renounce violence?

Because Fatah is corrupt as hell. 89 year old Abbas is not bringing an independent state. He and the rest of Fatah only care about their money. Much like the Hamas leadership, who were all billionaires before they were killed.

I personally think the West Bank settlers are awful. Israel will never be the "good guy" as long as those 600,000 orthodox lowlifes and extremists are taking land in the West Bank. But... Palestinians offer nothing. There's no one to negotiate with. A bunch of Islamic extremists and fat cat oligarchs. Right now, the smart Palestinians become doctors and engineers and move away as quickly as possible. Meanwhile, civic culture among Palestinians is a cesspool.

Where is is the Palestinian Ghandi? Where is the Lech Walesa? Where is the MLK? Where is the Ataturk? Where is the Palestinian equivalent of David Ben-Gurion?

Until Palestinians do a little soul searching and revolt against Hamas and Fatah, it's not going to go well. There is no one to negotiate with. The Palestinian leadership is horrible, and until that changes, nothing is going to change.

And yes, blah blah blah. Those super smart Zionists controlling Palestinian politics. If Palestinians think the Israelis are controlling everything, well, it's not a mature society. It's all grievance all the time. And that gets you nowhere.

When Palestinians in Gaza start killing Hamas members, I will pay attention and be hopeful something new is afoot. Until then, Palestinians really don't have much hope.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So Palestinian terrorism is justified because, because, because. There is no peaceful way forward, terrorism is the only way to achieve anything? That's the argument? Anyone with a scintilla of civilized blood in their veins would reject that puerile, simplistic proposition. Of course, if you accept it, all bets are off - the Palestinians should keep inflicting terror. If you adhere to that idea, you've no basis for crying when the terrorists and their supporters are suppressed. So stop whining and accept that the current condition of the Gazans is self-inflicted even as you think their actions have some kind of utility in advancing their causes and redressing their grievances.

Never mind that the Arab states surrounding Israel mostly engage in political discourse and negotiations instead of violent aggression. Those countries have avoided any recent conflicts because they have stayed within their own borders, having learned from their past adventurism that attacking Israel achieves nothing but self-destruction, a diminution in their own borders, the loss of military capacity, and embarrassment on the world stage. Iran is still figuring that one out, as are the Houthis.

The Palestinians can try to re-fight the Israeli war for independence over and over again, obtaining the same results they did in 1948. You can cheer them on from the sidelines where it's safe, but encouraging them is to urge them to continue further aggravate their hopeless state of affairs.

Please suggest civilized ways currently available to the Palestinians to resist land grab and settlement expansion. I’ll wait.

Renounce terror to start with and go from there. Nothing will change as long as terror is the exclusive foreign policy pursued by the Palestinians. It matters not what alternatives they are offered, they consistently choose terror in the utterly absurd hope that such a path will result in the disappearance of Israel and its population and the return to the status quo ante of 1947, assuming they found the British Mandate a suitable form of governance and wouldn't complain just as much about that. The sheer imbecility of this course of action is astounding - no rational person could possibly conclude, after 75 years of failed efforts, that this is a viable path forward or that it forms the basis for a useful foreign policy and path to peaceful engagement with anyone.

The assertions here that terror is the only option available is equally idiotic - doing the same thing over and over and over, obtaining the same result over and over and over, and urging more of the same is irrational as well as ineffective. It's time for a change, and that change is not gong to be Israel packing up and dissolving itself, it has to be the Palestinians recognizing that trying to address their grievances through a corrupt government and terrorism is not only unproductive but affirmatively self-destructive. Trying a path without terrorism can only be an improvement, although that requires a rejection of sponsorship by Iran, which uses terror as an instrument of their own foreign policy. They do that through proxies like Hamas, to try to insulate themselves from direct retaliation but have no objections when their surrogates get hammered instead.

If the Palestinians reject terror, prospects for peace would increase exponentially. Continue to embrace terror, and the Palestinians will continue on a path towards obliteration, all while sympathizers decry the situation. The Palestinians can end the violence this moment by rejecting Hamas and all it stands for, and ensuring the release of the hostages. Or they can keep on keeping on. it's up to them - Hamas attacked on Oct. 7, not the IDF.

PLO has renounced violence and recognized Israel. I note it accomplished 0% in terms of stopping land grab.

Again, please suggest civilized ways to stop settlement expansion.

Also, when do settlers get to renounce violence?

Because Fatah is corrupt as hell. 89 year old Abbas is not bringing an independent state. He and the rest of Fatah only care about their money. Much like the Hamas leadership, who were all billionaires before they were killed.

I personally think the West Bank settlers are awful. Israel will never be the "good guy" as long as those 600,000 orthodox lowlifes and extremists are taking land in the West Bank. But... Palestinians offer nothing. There's no one to negotiate with. A bunch of Islamic extremists and fat cat oligarchs. Right now, the smart Palestinians become doctors and engineers and move away as quickly as possible. Meanwhile, civic culture among Palestinians is a cesspool.

Where is is the Palestinian Ghandi? Where is the Lech Walesa? Where is the MLK? Where is the Ataturk? Where is the Palestinian equivalent of David Ben-Gurion?

Until Palestinians do a little soul searching and revolt against Hamas and Fatah, it's not going to go well. There is no one to negotiate with. The Palestinian leadership is horrible, and until that changes, nothing is going to change.

And yes, blah blah blah. Those super smart Zionists controlling Palestinian politics. If Palestinians think the Israelis are controlling everything, well, it's not a mature society. It's all grievance all the time. And that gets you nowhere.

When Palestinians in Gaza start killing Hamas members, I will pay attention and be hopeful something new is afoot. Until then, Palestinians really don't have much hope.

Ben Gurion? The terrorist???

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So Palestinian terrorism is justified because, because, because. There is no peaceful way forward, terrorism is the only way to achieve anything? That's the argument? Anyone with a scintilla of civilized blood in their veins would reject that puerile, simplistic proposition. Of course, if you accept it, all bets are off - the Palestinians should keep inflicting terror. If you adhere to that idea, you've no basis for crying when the terrorists and their supporters are suppressed. So stop whining and accept that the current condition of the Gazans is self-inflicted even as you think their actions have some kind of utility in advancing their causes and redressing their grievances.

Never mind that the Arab states surrounding Israel mostly engage in political discourse and negotiations instead of violent aggression. Those countries have avoided any recent conflicts because they have stayed within their own borders, having learned from their past adventurism that attacking Israel achieves nothing but self-destruction, a diminution in their own borders, the loss of military capacity, and embarrassment on the world stage. Iran is still figuring that one out, as are the Houthis.

The Palestinians can try to re-fight the Israeli war for independence over and over again, obtaining the same results they did in 1948. You can cheer them on from the sidelines where it's safe, but encouraging them is to urge them to continue further aggravate their hopeless state of affairs.

Please suggest civilized ways currently available to the Palestinians to resist land grab and settlement expansion. I’ll wait.

Renounce terror to start with and go from there. Nothing will change as long as terror is the exclusive foreign policy pursued by the Palestinians. It matters not what alternatives they are offered, they consistently choose terror in the utterly absurd hope that such a path will result in the disappearance of Israel and its population and the return to the status quo ante of 1947, assuming they found the British Mandate a suitable form of governance and wouldn't complain just as much about that. The sheer imbecility of this course of action is astounding - no rational person could possibly conclude, after 75 years of failed efforts, that this is a viable path forward or that it forms the basis for a useful foreign policy and path to peaceful engagement with anyone.

The assertions here that terror is the only option available is equally idiotic - doing the same thing over and over and over, obtaining the same result over and over and over, and urging more of the same is irrational as well as ineffective. It's time for a change, and that change is not gong to be Israel packing up and dissolving itself, it has to be the Palestinians recognizing that trying to address their grievances through a corrupt government and terrorism is not only unproductive but affirmatively self-destructive. Trying a path without terrorism can only be an improvement, although that requires a rejection of sponsorship by Iran, which uses terror as an instrument of their own foreign policy. They do that through proxies like Hamas, to try to insulate themselves from direct retaliation but have no objections when their surrogates get hammered instead.

If the Palestinians reject terror, prospects for peace would increase exponentially. Continue to embrace terror, and the Palestinians will continue on a path towards obliteration, all while sympathizers decry the situation. The Palestinians can end the violence this moment by rejecting Hamas and all it stands for, and ensuring the release of the hostages. Or they can keep on keeping on. it's up to them - Hamas attacked on Oct. 7, not the IDF.

PLO has renounced violence and recognized Israel. I note it accomplished 0% in terms of stopping land grab.

Again, please suggest civilized ways to stop settlement expansion.

Also, when do settlers get to renounce violence?

Because Fatah is corrupt as hell. 89 year old Abbas is not bringing an independent state. He and the rest of Fatah only care about their money. Much like the Hamas leadership, who were all billionaires before they were killed.

I personally think the West Bank settlers are awful. Israel will never be the "good guy" as long as those 600,000 orthodox lowlifes and extremists are taking land in the West Bank. But... Palestinians offer nothing. There's no one to negotiate with. A bunch of Islamic extremists and fat cat oligarchs. Right now, the smart Palestinians become doctors and engineers and move away as quickly as possible. Meanwhile, civic culture among Palestinians is a cesspool.

Where is is the Palestinian Ghandi? Where is the Lech Walesa? Where is the MLK? Where is the Ataturk? Where is the Palestinian equivalent of David Ben-Gurion?

Until Palestinians do a little soul searching and revolt against Hamas and Fatah, it's not going to go well. There is no one to negotiate with. The Palestinian leadership is horrible, and until that changes, nothing is going to change.

And yes, blah blah blah. Those super smart Zionists controlling Palestinian politics. If Palestinians think the Israelis are controlling everything, well, it's not a mature society. It's all grievance all the time. And that gets you nowhere.

When Palestinians in Gaza start killing Hamas members, I will pay attention and be hopeful something new is afoot. Until then, Palestinians really don't have much hope.

Ben Gurion? The terrorist???

If Palestinians could manage to elevate a Ben Gurion as their leader, they'd be doing infinitely better than their Abbas and Sinwar choices.

It's up to them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So Palestinian terrorism is justified because, because, because. There is no peaceful way forward, terrorism is the only way to achieve anything? That's the argument? Anyone with a scintilla of civilized blood in their veins would reject that puerile, simplistic proposition. Of course, if you accept it, all bets are off - the Palestinians should keep inflicting terror. If you adhere to that idea, you've no basis for crying when the terrorists and their supporters are suppressed. So stop whining and accept that the current condition of the Gazans is self-inflicted even as you think their actions have some kind of utility in advancing their causes and redressing their grievances.

Never mind that the Arab states surrounding Israel mostly engage in political discourse and negotiations instead of violent aggression. Those countries have avoided any recent conflicts because they have stayed within their own borders, having learned from their past adventurism that attacking Israel achieves nothing but self-destruction, a diminution in their own borders, the loss of military capacity, and embarrassment on the world stage. Iran is still figuring that one out, as are the Houthis.

The Palestinians can try to re-fight the Israeli war for independence over and over again, obtaining the same results they did in 1948. You can cheer them on from the sidelines where it's safe, but encouraging them is to urge them to continue further aggravate their hopeless state of affairs.

Please suggest civilized ways currently available to the Palestinians to resist land grab and settlement expansion. I’ll wait.

Renounce terror to start with and go from there. Nothing will change as long as terror is the exclusive foreign policy pursued by the Palestinians. It matters not what alternatives they are offered, they consistently choose terror in the utterly absurd hope that such a path will result in the disappearance of Israel and its population and the return to the status quo ante of 1947, assuming they found the British Mandate a suitable form of governance and wouldn't complain just as much about that. The sheer imbecility of this course of action is astounding - no rational person could possibly conclude, after 75 years of failed efforts, that this is a viable path forward or that it forms the basis for a useful foreign policy and path to peaceful engagement with anyone.

The assertions here that terror is the only option available is equally idiotic - doing the same thing over and over and over, obtaining the same result over and over and over, and urging more of the same is irrational as well as ineffective. It's time for a change, and that change is not gong to be Israel packing up and dissolving itself, it has to be the Palestinians recognizing that trying to address their grievances through a corrupt government and terrorism is not only unproductive but affirmatively self-destructive. Trying a path without terrorism can only be an improvement, although that requires a rejection of sponsorship by Iran, which uses terror as an instrument of their own foreign policy. They do that through proxies like Hamas, to try to insulate themselves from direct retaliation but have no objections when their surrogates get hammered instead.

If the Palestinians reject terror, prospects for peace would increase exponentially. Continue to embrace terror, and the Palestinians will continue on a path towards obliteration, all while sympathizers decry the situation. The Palestinians can end the violence this moment by rejecting Hamas and all it stands for, and ensuring the release of the hostages. Or they can keep on keeping on. it's up to them - Hamas attacked on Oct. 7, not the IDF.

PLO has renounced violence and recognized Israel. I note it accomplished 0% in terms of stopping land grab.

Again, please suggest civilized ways to stop settlement expansion.

Also, when do settlers get to renounce violence?

Because Fatah is corrupt as hell. 89 year old Abbas is not bringing an independent state. He and the rest of Fatah only care about their money. Much like the Hamas leadership, who were all billionaires before they were killed.

I personally think the West Bank settlers are awful. Israel will never be the "good guy" as long as those 600,000 orthodox lowlifes and extremists are taking land in the West Bank. But... Palestinians offer nothing. There's no one to negotiate with. A bunch of Islamic extremists and fat cat oligarchs. Right now, the smart Palestinians become doctors and engineers and move away as quickly as possible. Meanwhile, civic culture among Palestinians is a cesspool.

Where is is the Palestinian Ghandi? Where is the Lech Walesa? Where is the MLK? Where is the Ataturk? Where is the Palestinian equivalent of David Ben-Gurion?

Until Palestinians do a little soul searching and revolt against Hamas and Fatah, it's not going to go well. There is no one to negotiate with. The Palestinian leadership is horrible, and until that changes, nothing is going to change.

And yes, blah blah blah. Those super smart Zionists controlling Palestinian politics. If Palestinians think the Israelis are controlling everything, well, it's not a mature society. It's all grievance all the time. And that gets you nowhere.

When Palestinians in Gaza start killing Hamas members, I will pay attention and be hopeful something new is afoot. Until then, Palestinians really don't have much hope.

Ben Gurion? The terrorist???

If Palestinians could manage to elevate a Ben Gurion as their leader, they'd be doing infinitely better than their Abbas and Sinwar choices.

It's up to them.

The same David Ben-Gurion (David Grun before he changed his name to fake indigeneity) who personally led vicious massacres of indigenous people in the region to force the hands of Western powers? Western powers already bending over backwards to hasten recognition of the State of Israel that they had forced upon the native, indigenous people?

That explains a lot. That terrorist is a peaceful statesman in your twisted mind, when in reality he was nothing more than the worst of Hamas, Hezbollah, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So Palestinian terrorism is justified because, because, because. There is no peaceful way forward, terrorism is the only way to achieve anything? That's the argument? Anyone with a scintilla of civilized blood in their veins would reject that puerile, simplistic proposition. Of course, if you accept it, all bets are off - the Palestinians should keep inflicting terror. If you adhere to that idea, you've no basis for crying when the terrorists and their supporters are suppressed. So stop whining and accept that the current condition of the Gazans is self-inflicted even as you think their actions have some kind of utility in advancing their causes and redressing their grievances.

Never mind that the Arab states surrounding Israel mostly engage in political discourse and negotiations instead of violent aggression. Those countries have avoided any recent conflicts because they have stayed within their own borders, having learned from their past adventurism that attacking Israel achieves nothing but self-destruction, a diminution in their own borders, the loss of military capacity, and embarrassment on the world stage. Iran is still figuring that one out, as are the Houthis.

The Palestinians can try to re-fight the Israeli war for independence over and over again, obtaining the same results they did in 1948. You can cheer them on from the sidelines where it's safe, but encouraging them is to urge them to continue further aggravate their hopeless state of affairs.

Please suggest civilized ways currently available to the Palestinians to resist land grab and settlement expansion. I’ll wait.

Renounce terror to start with and go from there. Nothing will change as long as terror is the exclusive foreign policy pursued by the Palestinians. It matters not what alternatives they are offered, they consistently choose terror in the utterly absurd hope that such a path will result in the disappearance of Israel and its population and the return to the status quo ante of 1947, assuming they found the British Mandate a suitable form of governance and wouldn't complain just as much about that. The sheer imbecility of this course of action is astounding - no rational person could possibly conclude, after 75 years of failed efforts, that this is a viable path forward or that it forms the basis for a useful foreign policy and path to peaceful engagement with anyone.

The assertions here that terror is the only option available is equally idiotic - doing the same thing over and over and over, obtaining the same result over and over and over, and urging more of the same is irrational as well as ineffective. It's time for a change, and that change is not gong to be Israel packing up and dissolving itself, it has to be the Palestinians recognizing that trying to address their grievances through a corrupt government and terrorism is not only unproductive but affirmatively self-destructive. Trying a path without terrorism can only be an improvement, although that requires a rejection of sponsorship by Iran, which uses terror as an instrument of their own foreign policy. They do that through proxies like Hamas, to try to insulate themselves from direct retaliation but have no objections when their surrogates get hammered instead.

If the Palestinians reject terror, prospects for peace would increase exponentially. Continue to embrace terror, and the Palestinians will continue on a path towards obliteration, all while sympathizers decry the situation. The Palestinians can end the violence this moment by rejecting Hamas and all it stands for, and ensuring the release of the hostages. Or they can keep on keeping on. it's up to them - Hamas attacked on Oct. 7, not the IDF.

PLO has renounced violence and recognized Israel. I note it accomplished 0% in terms of stopping land grab.

Again, please suggest civilized ways to stop settlement expansion.

Also, when do settlers get to renounce violence?

Because Fatah is corrupt as hell. 89 year old Abbas is not bringing an independent state. He and the rest of Fatah only care about their money. Much like the Hamas leadership, who were all billionaires before they were killed.

I personally think the West Bank settlers are awful. Israel will never be the "good guy" as long as those 600,000 orthodox lowlifes and extremists are taking land in the West Bank. But... Palestinians offer nothing. There's no one to negotiate with. A bunch of Islamic extremists and fat cat oligarchs. Right now, the smart Palestinians become doctors and engineers and move away as quickly as possible. Meanwhile, civic culture among Palestinians is a cesspool.

Where is is the Palestinian Ghandi? Where is the Lech Walesa? Where is the MLK? Where is the Ataturk? Where is the Palestinian equivalent of David Ben-Gurion?

Until Palestinians do a little soul searching and revolt against Hamas and Fatah, it's not going to go well. There is no one to negotiate with. The Palestinian leadership is horrible, and until that changes, nothing is going to change.

And yes, blah blah blah. Those super smart Zionists controlling Palestinian politics. If Palestinians think the Israelis are controlling everything, well, it's not a mature society. It's all grievance all the time. And that gets you nowhere.

When Palestinians in Gaza start killing Hamas members, I will pay attention and be hopeful something new is afoot. Until then, Palestinians really don't have much hope.

Wait you’re saying Palestinians have to offer something for Israel to stop stealing their land? Hey when you try to rape a woman and she resists, do you ask her what she can offer to make you stop?

And hey, “no partner for peace “, hasbara lives on. But settlers are awful of course , tsk tsk, these evil evil settlers who enjoy no support whatsoever in the government of the army. It’s like they got dropped into their villages from Mars.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So Palestinian terrorism is justified because, because, because. There is no peaceful way forward, terrorism is the only way to achieve anything? That's the argument? Anyone with a scintilla of civilized blood in their veins would reject that puerile, simplistic proposition. Of course, if you accept it, all bets are off - the Palestinians should keep inflicting terror. If you adhere to that idea, you've no basis for crying when the terrorists and their supporters are suppressed. So stop whining and accept that the current condition of the Gazans is self-inflicted even as you think their actions have some kind of utility in advancing their causes and redressing their grievances.

Never mind that the Arab states surrounding Israel mostly engage in political discourse and negotiations instead of violent aggression. Those countries have avoided any recent conflicts because they have stayed within their own borders, having learned from their past adventurism that attacking Israel achieves nothing but self-destruction, a diminution in their own borders, the loss of military capacity, and embarrassment on the world stage. Iran is still figuring that one out, as are the Houthis.

The Palestinians can try to re-fight the Israeli war for independence over and over again, obtaining the same results they did in 1948. You can cheer them on from the sidelines where it's safe, but encouraging them is to urge them to continue further aggravate their hopeless state of affairs.

Please suggest civilized ways currently available to the Palestinians to resist land grab and settlement expansion. I’ll wait.

Renounce terror to start with and go from there. Nothing will change as long as terror is the exclusive foreign policy pursued by the Palestinians. It matters not what alternatives they are offered, they consistently choose terror in the utterly absurd hope that such a path will result in the disappearance of Israel and its population and the return to the status quo ante of 1947, assuming they found the British Mandate a suitable form of governance and wouldn't complain just as much about that. The sheer imbecility of this course of action is astounding - no rational person could possibly conclude, after 75 years of failed efforts, that this is a viable path forward or that it forms the basis for a useful foreign policy and path to peaceful engagement with anyone.

The assertions here that terror is the only option available is equally idiotic - doing the same thing over and over and over, obtaining the same result over and over and over, and urging more of the same is irrational as well as ineffective. It's time for a change, and that change is not gong to be Israel packing up and dissolving itself, it has to be the Palestinians recognizing that trying to address their grievances through a corrupt government and terrorism is not only unproductive but affirmatively self-destructive. Trying a path without terrorism can only be an improvement, although that requires a rejection of sponsorship by Iran, which uses terror as an instrument of their own foreign policy. They do that through proxies like Hamas, to try to insulate themselves from direct retaliation but have no objections when their surrogates get hammered instead.

If the Palestinians reject terror, prospects for peace would increase exponentially. Continue to embrace terror, and the Palestinians will continue on a path towards obliteration, all while sympathizers decry the situation. The Palestinians can end the violence this moment by rejecting Hamas and all it stands for, and ensuring the release of the hostages. Or they can keep on keeping on. it's up to them - Hamas attacked on Oct. 7, not the IDF.

PLO has renounced violence and recognized Israel. I note it accomplished 0% in terms of stopping land grab.

Again, please suggest civilized ways to stop settlement expansion.

Also, when do settlers get to renounce violence?

Because Fatah is corrupt as hell. 89 year old Abbas is not bringing an independent state. He and the rest of Fatah only care about their money. Much like the Hamas leadership, who were all billionaires before they were killed.

I personally think the West Bank settlers are awful. Israel will never be the "good guy" as long as those 600,000 orthodox lowlifes and extremists are taking land in the West Bank. But... Palestinians offer nothing. There's no one to negotiate with. A bunch of Islamic extremists and fat cat oligarchs. Right now, the smart Palestinians become doctors and engineers and move away as quickly as possible. Meanwhile, civic culture among Palestinians is a cesspool.

Where is is the Palestinian Ghandi? Where is the Lech Walesa? Where is the MLK? Where is the Ataturk? Where is the Palestinian equivalent of David Ben-Gurion?

Until Palestinians do a little soul searching and revolt against Hamas and Fatah, it's not going to go well. There is no one to negotiate with. The Palestinian leadership is horrible, and until that changes, nothing is going to change.

And yes, blah blah blah. Those super smart Zionists controlling Palestinian politics. If Palestinians think the Israelis are controlling everything, well, it's not a mature society. It's all grievance all the time. And that gets you nowhere.

When Palestinians in Gaza start killing Hamas members, I will pay attention and be hopeful something new is afoot. Until then, Palestinians really don't have much hope.

Where is the Palestinian Ben Gurion? Take your pick. Sinwar, Haniyeh, Sheikh Yassin, they would all fit. Let’s look at some sayings by Mr BG , shall we?

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
David Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.”
— David Ben Gurion. Quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

“We must do everything to insure they (the Palestinians) never do return.”
David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, 18 July 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar’s Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet, Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157.