Official Government Shutdown 2023 Thread

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:hey i figure if i plan for the worst than maybe things will go ok.

on that note, if you think there might be any need to take a loan from your tsp during an extended shutdown, go ahead and add a checking/bank account as a linked financial institution in tsp.gov now, as there is a 7-day waiting period to disburse funds electronically to newly configured/changed bank accounts.

Thanks for the tip. That’s helpful. What are the consequences of taking out a TSP loan though?

I took one out for a down payment. There is a calculator that shows how much you can take out. Basically, most of your contributions. You pay back with regular deductions from your paycheck. You are charged interest (but much less than a credit card). Once you pay it back, there is a waiting period before you can take out a new one. Can pay it back early with no penalty if the shutdown doesn’t materialize.

It’s a good alternative to carrying a credit card balance. Lower interest rate, doesn’t hurt credit score. The big downside is don’t earn interest on the pretax money until you pay it back (because it isn’t in your account).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So any news from the Hill today?

+1

Breaking news: Republicans still horrible.

Exactly!!

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I have plane tickets for a weekend trip (planned 8 months ago) over Columbus/Indigenous Peoples weekend. Since I never traveled during past shutdowns, what is the likelihood of ATC and TSA working? (Not that any of us have crystal ball.)

They will force TSA to work unpaid.

That is so sh*tty. So blue collar workers at the TSA will be forced to come in without pay so that the fat-cat Congressmen who caused this shutdown will still be able to jet home?

As well as, of course, every other person who has a flight scheduled during the shutdown. Or would you prefer that all air travel in the country grind to a halt during the shutdown?

Umm yes. That's the point. It's a shutdown of government services because they can't reach any agreement on funding said services.

That should be the outcome when a shutdown is triggered.

So, also the military should stop working? National defense is on hold for the time being - we just hope no one notices? How about the Secret Service? People involved in monitoring nuclear power? Anyone can now wander onto military bases and take whatever they please? I could go on . . .

It's an absurd position, and I think you know that.

It's not absurd, because Joe Average in middle America who thinks the govt has too much money doesn't see the affects of a shutdown. He still gets his SS check, he can call the IRS, his plane still flies.

Average Americas need to see what their Representatives are causing, and they won't see that until it's hard for them.

What about the military? Intelligence agencies? FBI? Homeland Security? ICE? BCP? Embassies and Consulates? How much risk do you want to put the US in? Because if any of these agencies/services are shutdown, then the "pain" may be an invasion, rise in crime that could include loss of life, endangering US citizens abroad, compromise of US national security and more. Do you have any line at all of what is essential? Does your political philosophy in this situation mean that you consider loss of human life is acceptable just to drive the point home? Are you willing to have a foreign terrorist group enter the US and attack the US with no LEO or military to stop them or capture them? Are you willing to sacrifice US citizens in foreign countries to terrorist or military action and offer them no protection? Are you willing to let illegal aliens (or undocumented migrants) enter the nation at an even higher rate than currently are entering because we've eliminated all forms of border monitoring? Are you willing to have a crime spree because the FBI is not working?

If I were a member of Congress I would never put any of those things at risk, I would work with people I hate on the other side to get appropriations bills enacted and ensure the continuity of our federal government because all of those things are important. But I’m not a member of Congress, I’m a lowly federal employee who performs one of the functions you mention above and because of political dysfunction I will have to continue to do my job with delayed pay of weeks or months due to no fault of my own. The people who caused this problem and those who elected them into their jobs will face no consequences. I think that’s wrong and I think they should get exactly what they paid for. I hope a shutdown would become a very rare very short event but we have decided to make these much longer by making them painless to everyone except the federal workforce and I think that has been a very bad decision.

In other words, we have acted to minimize the disruption caused by federal government shutdowns, and confine its worst effects to a relatively small group of people. You are opposed to that, because you are in that group of people. You'd rather everyone suffer in the (vain, in my view) hope that if everyone suffers, they won't happen anymore.

I guess that's where we differ - I don't think it will work, and your path will only increase suffering. You still won't get paid on time (though you won't have to work, I guess), other individuals will suffer, and there may be systemic consequences. Seems like an easy decision to me. Of course, I'm not in the affected group.

You don’t get it. Sure, you can attempt limit the brunt of the impact to a few million (blameless) people. Then what…the majority of Americans don’t feel the pain (or comprehend the 100s of millions of their tax dollars being thrown away each day of the shut down) and think it’s no big deal so they don’t put pressure/consequences on congress and the situation just keeps recurring every few years (likely with increasing frequency).


Or we could just let the average American feel the brunt of a real shutdown and within a couple of days any future efforts to dangle it as a bargaining tool would be political suicide.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I have plane tickets for a weekend trip (planned 8 months ago) over Columbus/Indigenous Peoples weekend. Since I never traveled during past shutdowns, what is the likelihood of ATC and TSA working? (Not that any of us have crystal ball.)

They will force TSA to work unpaid.

That is so sh*tty. So blue collar workers at the TSA will be forced to come in without pay so that the fat-cat Congressmen who caused this shutdown will still be able to jet home?

As well as, of course, every other person who has a flight scheduled during the shutdown. Or would you prefer that all air travel in the country grind to a halt during the shutdown?

Umm yes. That's the point. It's a shutdown of government services because they can't reach any agreement on funding said services.

That should be the outcome when a shutdown is triggered.

So, also the military should stop working? National defense is on hold for the time being - we just hope no one notices? How about the Secret Service? People involved in monitoring nuclear power? Anyone can now wander onto military bases and take whatever they please? I could go on . . .

It's an absurd position, and I think you know that.

It is more absurd to have millions of Americans working without pay because the political leadership is dysfunctional. No other industry has to do this, but every few years we expect millions of civil servants and members of the military to quietly do their jobs with no pay because their jobs are very important to the daily functioning of our country and the public couldn't be inconvenienced. Shut down all of the airports, absolutely. Business leaders with influence would force the politicians to find a solution. Instead we have a bunch of GS-7 TSA employees bearing the cost of this dysfunction and they are the least to blame with the most to lose.

Can we please stop with the "working without pay" nonsense? No government worker is "working without pay." The pay is delayed. (Contractors, of course don't get paid, and I really feel sorry for them.) What is really happening is that all government workers get paid late, and many get paid for not working.

You all are coming at this form the point of view of the workers, which is understandable. But from the perspective of a person not involved, it's far more important to minimize disruption to the rest of the country, and economy, than it is to take draconian measures to try to prevent shutdowns. And it's unfortunate that federal employees' pay is *delayed* - but that's far better, for the country as a whole, than shutting down entirely.

My mortgage is still due on time. We need food and the water bill paid and gas in the car because we are still expected to go to work. These don't get "delayed". And yes, we have savings for emergencies. And yes we have credit cards. However, you are still putting the onus of the shutdown on workers.

Far better for the country would be not to have this type of instability to begin with.

Even worse, you are likely a GS-13 or higher being paid in the six figures (which is the majority of federal workers who post on DCUM). The same thing is happening to GS-1 through GS-10 workers who are making low to mid five figures. Many of them don't have emergency options like savings to pay bills due while not getting a paycheck. Some of them might be able to swing one month of missed mortgage payments, but many do not have two months of mortgage and utilities and food bills, etc to cover more than a month of delayed payment.

And while the PP feels really sorry for the contractors, the federal contract workforce is almost double the federal civil service workforce. There are roughly 1.2M civil service employees and well over 2M federal contractors. Of those federal contractors, only a small portion have forward funded contracts that allow them to work. There are millions of contractors who will not get paid for time off during a shutdown. So, PP's sympathy is pretty much worth the same as conservatives "thoughts and prayers" when children are slaughtered by guns.

What we really need is to have rules on automatic continuance of federal pay for employees (both civil service and contractors) during a shutdown. Pay for employees needs to be pulled from discretionary spending and put into essential funding that is not covered by lack of appropriations. There are many things that are not included in discretionary spending and we need to move employee pay from one side of the ledger to the other so that federal employees (both civil service and contractor) are no longer political pawns of the childish Congress.

If not, then perhaps a rule that the Congressional appropriations bill should be the last bill to pass. In several of these shutdowns, the Congressional appropriations was passed when others were not, so that the Congress and their staff were paid to work through the shutdown while others were not. Congressmen should learn to work without pay or have their pay delayed until after they do their jobs and if they have to do their jobs with no staffers to help them, then maybe they'll actually feel like acting more like an adult than like a toddler.

I am the PP everyone hates, and I don't have a problem with this. I would note, however, that you are arguing that the government should mitigate the effect of the shutdown, not make it worse. That's exactly what I'm saying. Your fellow travelers, on the other hand, want to shut down everything - make the consequences for the country much worse if a shutdown happens.

We live in a representative democracy. My fellow Americans voted for the buffoons who are voting for a shutdown. Many of them are cheering these clowns on. If my fellow citizens vote for people who don’t hide the fact they want shutdowns, like the FC, then they should get actual shutdowns. Why would we protect people from the consequences of their votes? Nobody held a gun to their head and made them vote for Matt Gaetz. If they become the dogs who catch the car, they should have to live with the consequences. Maybe they will contact their Rep and tell them to cut it out. And then the Rep will, or lose the next election. It’s how democracy works.

I don’t believe it’s healthy to give people a choice on — anything really— and then work as hard as we can to protect them from the downsides of that choice. That’s called enabling. And no, we shouldn’t enable the crazy caucus on the backs of GS7s.

Exactly - people think federal employees do nothing - let them see what happens when feds really aren't working.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I have plane tickets for a weekend trip (planned 8 months ago) over Columbus/Indigenous Peoples weekend. Since I never traveled during past shutdowns, what is the likelihood of ATC and TSA working? (Not that any of us have crystal ball.)

They will force TSA to work unpaid.

That is so sh*tty. So blue collar workers at the TSA will be forced to come in without pay so that the fat-cat Congressmen who caused this shutdown will still be able to jet home?

As well as, of course, every other person who has a flight scheduled during the shutdown. Or would you prefer that all air travel in the country grind to a halt during the shutdown?

Umm yes. That's the point. It's a shutdown of government services because they can't reach any agreement on funding said services.

That should be the outcome when a shutdown is triggered.

So, also the military should stop working? National defense is on hold for the time being - we just hope no one notices? How about the Secret Service? People involved in monitoring nuclear power? Anyone can now wander onto military bases and take whatever they please? I could go on . . .

It's an absurd position, and I think you know that.

It's not absurd, because Joe Average in middle America who thinks the govt has too much money doesn't see the affects of a shutdown. He still gets his SS check, he can call the IRS, his plane still flies.

Average Americas need to see what their Representatives are causing, and they won't see that until it's hard for them.

What about the military? Intelligence agencies? FBI? Homeland Security? ICE? BCP? Embassies and Consulates? How much risk do you want to put the US in? Because if any of these agencies/services are shutdown, then the "pain" may be an invasion, rise in crime that could include loss of life, endangering US citizens abroad, compromise of US national security and more. Do you have any line at all of what is essential? Does your political philosophy in this situation mean that you consider loss of human life is acceptable just to drive the point home? Are you willing to have a foreign terrorist group enter the US and attack the US with no LEO or military to stop them or capture them? Are you willing to sacrifice US citizens in foreign countries to terrorist or military action and offer them no protection? Are you willing to let illegal aliens (or undocumented migrants) enter the nation at an even higher rate than currently are entering because we've eliminated all forms of border monitoring? Are you willing to have a crime spree because the FBI is not working?

If I were a member of Congress I would never put any of those things at risk, I would work with people I hate on the other side to get appropriations bills enacted and ensure the continuity of our federal government because all of those things are important. But I’m not a member of Congress, I’m a lowly federal employee who performs one of the functions you mention above and because of political dysfunction I will have to continue to do my job with delayed pay of weeks or months due to no fault of my own. The people who caused this problem and those who elected them into their jobs will face no consequences. I think that’s wrong and I think they should get exactly what they paid for. I hope a shutdown would become a very rare very short event but we have decided to make these much longer by making them painless to everyone except the federal workforce and I think that has been a very bad decision.

In other words, we have acted to minimize the disruption caused by federal government shutdowns, and confine its worst effects to a relatively small group of people. You are opposed to that, because you are in that group of people. You'd rather everyone suffer in the (vain, in my view) hope that if everyone suffers, they won't happen anymore.

I guess that's where we differ - I don't think it will work, and your path will only increase suffering. You still won't get paid on time (though you won't have to work, I guess), other individuals will suffer, and there may be systemic consequences. Seems like an easy decision to me. Of course, I'm not in the affected group.

DP. No. Here’s where we differ. I see the waste of even near misses. And forget the long shutdowns. Even near misses are a huge waste of time, resources and productivity. I want one painful shutdown (but guaranteed to be short, because airports shut down and people pay attention. It would be over in less than 24 hours) to get the legislation we need to stop future shutdowns by continuing the government at current levels until Congress votes for something else. I see it happen up close and personal and understand that we have reached peak insanity where we keep doing the same thing and expecting that this time it will be something other than wasteful, stressful and expensive. Under Trump, we had multiple shutdown threats and near misses a year. And every single one of them took, time, energy, and money away from us serving the public.

This won’t get better unless something is done to stop the cycle. If that means the threat of retirement and SSI checks not going out and airports shutting down for a day (because that’s what it would be— a day) it’s worth it in the long run to stop these enormously expensive, pointless, productivity sapping exercises going forward. Short term pain. Enormous long term gain.

This isn’t about one shutdown. It’s about getting the leverage to pass legislation to prevent any future shutdowns. And that would be good for this country in many ways. Including economically. Moodys is discussing downgrading our debt if there is a shutdown. There is a cost to the chaos.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have plane tickets for a weekend trip (planned 8 months ago) over Columbus/Indigenous Peoples weekend. Since I never traveled during past shutdowns, what is the likelihood of ATC and TSA working? (Not that any of us have crystal ball.)

They will force TSA to work unpaid.

That is so sh*tty. So blue collar workers at the TSA will be forced to come in without pay so that the fat-cat Congressmen who caused this shutdown will still be able to jet home?

As well as, of course, every other person who has a flight scheduled during the shutdown. Or would you prefer that all air travel in the country grind to a halt during the shutdown?

Umm yes. That's the point. It's a shutdown of government services because they can't reach any agreement on funding said services.

That should be the outcome when a shutdown is triggered.

So, also the military should stop working? National defense is on hold for the time being - we just hope no one notices? How about the Secret Service? People involved in monitoring nuclear power? Anyone can now wander onto military bases and take whatever they please? I could go on . . .

It's an absurd position, and I think you know that.

It's not absurd, because Joe Average in middle America who thinks the govt has too much money doesn't see the affects of a shutdown. He still gets his SS check, he can call the IRS, his plane still flies.

Average Americas need to see what their Representatives are causing, and they won't see that until it's hard for them.

What about the military? Intelligence agencies? FBI? Homeland Security? ICE? BCP? Embassies and Consulates? How much risk do you want to put the US in? Because if any of these agencies/services are shutdown, then the "pain" may be an invasion, rise in crime that could include loss of life, endangering US citizens abroad, compromise of US national security and more. Do you have any line at all of what is essential? Does your political philosophy in this situation mean that you consider loss of human life is acceptable just to drive the point home? Are you willing to have a foreign terrorist group enter the US and attack the US with no LEO or military to stop them or capture them? Are you willing to sacrifice US citizens in foreign countries to terrorist or military action and offer them no protection? Are you willing to let illegal aliens (or undocumented migrants) enter the nation at an even higher rate than currently are entering because we've eliminated all forms of border monitoring? Are you willing to have a crime spree because the FBI is not working?

If I were a member of Congress I would never put any of those things at risk, I would work with people I hate on the other side to get appropriations bills enacted and ensure the continuity of our federal government because all of those things are important. But I’m not a member of Congress, I’m a lowly federal employee who performs one of the functions you mention above and because of political dysfunction I will have to continue to do my job with delayed pay of weeks or months due to no fault of my own. The people who caused this problem and those who elected them into their jobs will face no consequences. I think that’s wrong and I think they should get exactly what they paid for. I hope a shutdown would become a very rare very short event but we have decided to make these much longer by making them painless to everyone except the federal workforce and I think that has been a very bad decision.

In other words, we have acted to minimize the disruption caused by federal government shutdowns, and confine its worst effects to a relatively small group of people. You are opposed to that, because you are in that group of people. You'd rather everyone suffer in the (vain, in my view) hope that if everyone suffers, they won't happen anymore.

I guess that's where we differ - I don't think it will work, and your path will only increase suffering. You still won't get paid on time (though you won't have to work, I guess), other individuals will suffer, and there may be systemic consequences. Seems like an easy decision to me. Of course, I'm not in the affected group.

Can we agree that what we are doing and have been doing since Clinton doesn’t work? In that case, maybe it’s time for a new plan. The Trump shutdown only ended because of an ATC sickout and airports actually starting to close.

Also, you want to harm a small group. I say share the pain. You do realize that when people vote for Trump and he appoints pro life justices, all of a sudden all women in many states couldn’t access abortion. It hurt everyone, including the wanted pregnancy tragedies, not just the people who voted for it. There is a lot in this country, like guns and abortion, where everyone has to live with what a minority wanted, because if gerrymandering and the structure of the Senate. Why is that okay on guns and abortion, but not shutdowns? Because you haven’t had the misfortune of having or having a loved one actually have a tragedy in pregnancy or a school shooter, but a shutdown might actually hurt you?

Too bad. I’m living with a lot of crappy policies I didn’t vote for. That’s how democracy works.

[Anonymous]

Money is not just being thrown away in the event of a shutdown.

EVERY agency now is having to utilize their lawyers and leadership to make contingency plans. Those guys (and they are mostly guys) make big bucks and could actually be doing their jobs if they were not having to make plans for the possible shutdown.

That money is being wasted as I type this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have plane tickets for a weekend trip (planned 8 months ago) over Columbus/Indigenous Peoples weekend. Since I never traveled during past shutdowns, what is the likelihood of ATC and TSA working? (Not that any of us have crystal ball.)

They will force TSA to work unpaid.

That is so sh*tty. So blue collar workers at the TSA will be forced to come in without pay so that the fat-cat Congressmen who caused this shutdown will still be able to jet home?

As well as, of course, every other person who has a flight scheduled during the shutdown. Or would you prefer that all air travel in the country grind to a halt during the shutdown?

Umm yes. That's the point. It's a shutdown of government services because they can't reach any agreement on funding said services.

That should be the outcome when a shutdown is triggered.

So, also the military should stop working? National defense is on hold for the time being - we just hope no one notices? How about the Secret Service? People involved in monitoring nuclear power? Anyone can now wander onto military bases and take whatever they please? I could go on . . .

It's an absurd position, and I think you know that.

It's not absurd, because Joe Average in middle America who thinks the govt has too much money doesn't see the affects of a shutdown. He still gets his SS check, he can call the IRS, his plane still flies.

Average Americas need to see what their Representatives are causing, and they won't see that until it's hard for them.

What about the military? Intelligence agencies? FBI? Homeland Security? ICE? BCP? Embassies and Consulates? How much risk do you want to put the US in? Because if any of these agencies/services are shutdown, then the "pain" may be an invasion, rise in crime that could include loss of life, endangering US citizens abroad, compromise of US national security and more. Do you have any line at all of what is essential? Does your political philosophy in this situation mean that you consider loss of human life is acceptable just to drive the point home? Are you willing to have a foreign terrorist group enter the US and attack the US with no LEO or military to stop them or capture them? Are you willing to sacrifice US citizens in foreign countries to terrorist or military action and offer them no protection? Are you willing to let illegal aliens (or undocumented migrants) enter the nation at an even higher rate than currently are entering because we've eliminated all forms of border monitoring? Are you willing to have a crime spree because the FBI is not working?

If I were a member of Congress I would never put any of those things at risk, I would work with people I hate on the other side to get appropriations bills enacted and ensure the continuity of our federal government because all of those things are important. But I’m not a member of Congress, I’m a lowly federal employee who performs one of the functions you mention above and because of political dysfunction I will have to continue to do my job with delayed pay of weeks or months due to no fault of my own. The people who caused this problem and those who elected them into their jobs will face no consequences. I think that’s wrong and I think they should get exactly what they paid for. I hope a shutdown would become a very rare very short event but we have decided to make these much longer by making them painless to everyone except the federal workforce and I think that has been a very bad decision.

In other words, we have acted to minimize the disruption caused by federal government shutdowns, and confine its worst effects to a relatively small group of people. You are opposed to that, because you are in that group of people. You'd rather everyone suffer in the (vain, in my view) hope that if everyone suffers, they won't happen anymore.

I guess that's where we differ - I don't think it will work, and your path will only increase suffering. You still won't get paid on time (though you won't have to work, I guess), other individuals will suffer, and there may be systemic consequences. Seems like an easy decision to me. Of course, I'm not in the affected group.

Can we agree that what we are doing and have been doing since Clinton doesn’t work? In that case, maybe it’s time for a new plan. The Trump shutdown only ended because of an ATC sickout and airports actually starting to close.

Also, you want to harm a small group. I say share the pain. You do realize that when people vote for Trump and he appoints pro life justices, all of a sudden all women in many states couldn’t access abortion. It hurt everyone, including the wanted pregnancy tragedies, not just the people who voted for it. There is a lot in this country, like guns and abortion, where everyone has to live with what a minority wanted, because if gerrymandering and the structure of the Senate. Why is that okay on guns and abortion, but not shutdowns? Because you haven’t had the misfortune of having or having a loved one actually have a tragedy in pregnancy or a school shooter, but a shutdown might actually hurt you?

Too bad. I’m living with a lot of crappy policies I didn’t vote for. That’s how democracy works.

^ standing ovation

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:hey i figure if i plan for the worst than maybe things will go ok.

on that note, if you think there might be any need to take a loan from your tsp during an extended shutdown, go ahead and add a checking/bank account as a linked financial institution in tsp.gov now, as there is a 7-day waiting period to disburse funds electronically to newly configured/changed bank accounts.

Thanks for the tip. That’s helpful. What are the consequences of taking out a TSP loan though?

I took one out for a down payment. There is a calculator that shows how much you can take out. Basically, most of your contributions. You pay back with regular deductions from your paycheck. You are charged interest (but much less than a credit card). Once you pay it back, there is a waiting period before you can take out a new one. Can pay it back early with no penalty if the shutdown doesn’t materialize.

It’s a good alternative to carrying a credit card balance. Lower interest rate, doesn’t hurt credit score. The big downside is don’t earn interest on the pretax money until you pay it back (because it isn’t in your account).

Who carries a credit card balance? Don't spend what you don't have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have plane tickets for a weekend trip (planned 8 months ago) over Columbus/Indigenous Peoples weekend. Since I never traveled during past shutdowns, what is the likelihood of ATC and TSA working? (Not that any of us have crystal ball.)

They will force TSA to work unpaid.

That is so sh*tty. So blue collar workers at the TSA will be forced to come in without pay so that the fat-cat Congressmen who caused this shutdown will still be able to jet home?

As well as, of course, every other person who has a flight scheduled during the shutdown. Or would you prefer that all air travel in the country grind to a halt during the shutdown?

Umm yes. That's the point. It's a shutdown of government services because they can't reach any agreement on funding said services.

That should be the outcome when a shutdown is triggered.

So, also the military should stop working? National defense is on hold for the time being - we just hope no one notices? How about the Secret Service? People involved in monitoring nuclear power? Anyone can now wander onto military bases and take whatever they please? I could go on . . .

It's an absurd position, and I think you know that.

It's not absurd, because Joe Average in middle America who thinks the govt has too much money doesn't see the affects of a shutdown. He still gets his SS check, he can call the IRS, his plane still flies.

Average Americas need to see what their Representatives are causing, and they won't see that until it's hard for them.

What about the military? Intelligence agencies? FBI? Homeland Security? ICE? BCP? Embassies and Consulates? How much risk do you want to put the US in? Because if any of these agencies/services are shutdown, then the "pain" may be an invasion, rise in crime that could include loss of life, endangering US citizens abroad, compromise of US national security and more. Do you have any line at all of what is essential? Does your political philosophy in this situation mean that you consider loss of human life is acceptable just to drive the point home? Are you willing to have a foreign terrorist group enter the US and attack the US with no LEO or military to stop them or capture them? Are you willing to sacrifice US citizens in foreign countries to terrorist or military action and offer them no protection? Are you willing to let illegal aliens (or undocumented migrants) enter the nation at an even higher rate than currently are entering because we've eliminated all forms of border monitoring? Are you willing to have a crime spree because the FBI is not working?

If I were a member of Congress I would never put any of those things at risk, I would work with people I hate on the other side to get appropriations bills enacted and ensure the continuity of our federal government because all of those things are important. But I’m not a member of Congress, I’m a lowly federal employee who performs one of the functions you mention above and because of political dysfunction I will have to continue to do my job with delayed pay of weeks or months due to no fault of my own. The people who caused this problem and those who elected them into their jobs will face no consequences. I think that’s wrong and I think they should get exactly what they paid for. I hope a shutdown would become a very rare very short event but we have decided to make these much longer by making them painless to everyone except the federal workforce and I think that has been a very bad decision.

In other words, we have acted to minimize the disruption caused by federal government shutdowns, and confine its worst effects to a relatively small group of people. You are opposed to that, because you are in that group of people. You'd rather everyone suffer in the (vain, in my view) hope that if everyone suffers, they won't happen anymore.

I guess that's where we differ - I don't think it will work, and your path will only increase suffering. You still won't get paid on time (though you won't have to work, I guess), other individuals will suffer, and there may be systemic consequences. Seems like an easy decision to me. Of course, I'm not in the affected group.

Can we agree that what we are doing and have been doing since Clinton doesn’t work? In that case, maybe it’s time for a new plan. The Trump shutdown only ended because of an ATC sickout and airports actually starting to close.

Also, you want to harm a small group. I say share the pain. You do realize that when people vote for Trump and he appoints pro life justices, all of a sudden all women in many states couldn’t access abortion. It hurt everyone, including the wanted pregnancy tragedies, not just the people who voted for it. There is a lot in this country, like guns and abortion, where everyone has to live with what a minority wanted, because if gerrymandering and the structure of the Senate. Why is that okay on guns and abortion, but not shutdowns? Because you haven’t had the misfortune of having or having a loved one actually have a tragedy in pregnancy or a school shooter, but a shutdown might actually hurt you?

Too bad. I’m living with a lot of crappy policies I didn’t vote for. That’s how democracy works.

^ standing ovation

+2! I also will have to work with no pay and think literally everything should grind to a halt. You vacation is not essential, airports should close, trains should stop, because these things require the federal government to operate. Literally everyone should feel the pain of their idiotic votes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:hey i figure if i plan for the worst than maybe things will go ok.

on that note, if you think there might be any need to take a loan from your tsp during an extended shutdown, go ahead and add a checking/bank account as a linked financial institution in tsp.gov now, as there is a 7-day waiting period to disburse funds electronically to newly configured/changed bank accounts.

Thanks for the tip. That’s helpful. What are the consequences of taking out a TSP loan though?

I took one out for a down payment. There is a calculator that shows how much you can take out. Basically, most of your contributions. You pay back with regular deductions from your paycheck. You are charged interest (but much less than a credit card). Once you pay it back, there is a waiting period before you can take out a new one. Can pay it back early with no penalty if the shutdown doesn’t materialize.

It’s a good alternative to carrying a credit card balance. Lower interest rate, doesn’t hurt credit score. The big downside is don’t earn interest on the pretax money until you pay it back (because it isn’t in your account).

Who carries a credit card balance? Don't spend what you don't have.

More than 1/3 of Americans carry a credit card balance, another 1/3 can’t qualify for a credit card due to low income/existing debt. Congrats for apparently being above average with finances but I’m sure DCUM could find plenty of other shortcomings to criticize you for.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I have plane tickets for a weekend trip (planned 8 months ago) over Columbus/Indigenous Peoples weekend. Since I never traveled during past shutdowns, what is the likelihood of ATC and TSA working? (Not that any of us have crystal ball.)

They will force TSA to work unpaid.

That is so sh*tty. So blue collar workers at the TSA will be forced to come in without pay so that the fat-cat Congressmen who caused this shutdown will still be able to jet home?

As well as, of course, every other person who has a flight scheduled during the shutdown. Or would you prefer that all air travel in the country grind to a halt during the shutdown?

Umm yes. That's the point. It's a shutdown of government services because they can't reach any agreement on funding said services.

That should be the outcome when a shutdown is triggered.

So, also the military should stop working? National defense is on hold for the time being - we just hope no one notices? How about the Secret Service? People involved in monitoring nuclear power? Anyone can now wander onto military bases and take whatever they please? I could go on . . .

It's an absurd position, and I think you know that.

It's not absurd, because Joe Average in middle America who thinks the govt has too much money doesn't see the affects of a shutdown. He still gets his SS check, he can call the IRS, his plane still flies.

Average Americas need to see what their Representatives are causing, and they won't see that until it's hard for them.

What about the military? Intelligence agencies? FBI? Homeland Security? ICE? BCP? Embassies and Consulates? How much risk do you want to put the US in? Because if any of these agencies/services are shutdown, then the "pain" may be an invasion, rise in crime that could include loss of life, endangering US citizens abroad, compromise of US national security and more. Do you have any line at all of what is essential? Does your political philosophy in this situation mean that you consider loss of human life is acceptable just to drive the point home? Are you willing to have a foreign terrorist group enter the US and attack the US with no LEO or military to stop them or capture them? Are you willing to sacrifice US citizens in foreign countries to terrorist or military action and offer them no protection? Are you willing to let illegal aliens (or undocumented migrants) enter the nation at an even higher rate than currently are entering because we've eliminated all forms of border monitoring? Are you willing to have a crime spree because the FBI is not working?

If I were a member of Congress I would never put any of those things at risk, I would work with people I hate on the other side to get appropriations bills enacted and ensure the continuity of our federal government because all of those things are important. But I’m not a member of Congress, I’m a lowly federal employee who performs one of the functions you mention above and because of political dysfunction I will have to continue to do my job with delayed pay of weeks or months due to no fault of my own. The people who caused this problem and those who elected them into their jobs will face no consequences. I think that’s wrong and I think they should get exactly what they paid for. I hope a shutdown would become a very rare very short event but we have decided to make these much longer by making them painless to everyone except the federal workforce and I think that has been a very bad decision.

In other words, we have acted to minimize the disruption caused by federal government shutdowns, and confine its worst effects to a relatively small group of people. You are opposed to that, because you are in that group of people. You'd rather everyone suffer in the (vain, in my view) hope that if everyone suffers, they won't happen anymore.

I guess that's where we differ - I don't think it will work, and your path will only increase suffering. You still won't get paid on time (though you won't have to work, I guess), other individuals will suffer, and there may be systemic consequences. Seems like an easy decision to me. Of course, I'm not in the affected group.

You don’t get it. Sure, you can attempt limit the brunt of the impact to a few million (blameless) people. Then what…the majority of Americans don’t feel the pain (or comprehend the 100s of millions of their tax dollars being thrown away each day of the shut down) and think it’s no big deal so they don’t put pressure/consequences on congress and the situation just keeps recurring every few years (likely with increasing frequency).


Or we could just let the average American feel the brunt of a real shutdown and within a couple of days any future efforts to dangle it as a bargaining tool would be political suicide.

I do get it, I just disagree that the outcome will be what you believe. And I'd rather not risk it. If that means that federal workers have their pay delayed (not, as so many say, "lost money" or even "work without pay"), then OK.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have plane tickets for a weekend trip (planned 8 months ago) over Columbus/Indigenous Peoples weekend. Since I never traveled during past shutdowns, what is the likelihood of ATC and TSA working? (Not that any of us have crystal ball.)

They will force TSA to work unpaid.

That is so sh*tty. So blue collar workers at the TSA will be forced to come in without pay so that the fat-cat Congressmen who caused this shutdown will still be able to jet home?

As well as, of course, every other person who has a flight scheduled during the shutdown. Or would you prefer that all air travel in the country grind to a halt during the shutdown?

Umm yes. That's the point. It's a shutdown of government services because they can't reach any agreement on funding said services.

That should be the outcome when a shutdown is triggered.

So, also the military should stop working? National defense is on hold for the time being - we just hope no one notices? How about the Secret Service? People involved in monitoring nuclear power? Anyone can now wander onto military bases and take whatever they please? I could go on . . .

It's an absurd position, and I think you know that.

It's not absurd, because Joe Average in middle America who thinks the govt has too much money doesn't see the affects of a shutdown. He still gets his SS check, he can call the IRS, his plane still flies.

Average Americas need to see what their Representatives are causing, and they won't see that until it's hard for them.

What about the military? Intelligence agencies? FBI? Homeland Security? ICE? BCP? Embassies and Consulates? How much risk do you want to put the US in? Because if any of these agencies/services are shutdown, then the "pain" may be an invasion, rise in crime that could include loss of life, endangering US citizens abroad, compromise of US national security and more. Do you have any line at all of what is essential? Does your political philosophy in this situation mean that you consider loss of human life is acceptable just to drive the point home? Are you willing to have a foreign terrorist group enter the US and attack the US with no LEO or military to stop them or capture them? Are you willing to sacrifice US citizens in foreign countries to terrorist or military action and offer them no protection? Are you willing to let illegal aliens (or undocumented migrants) enter the nation at an even higher rate than currently are entering because we've eliminated all forms of border monitoring? Are you willing to have a crime spree because the FBI is not working?

If I were a member of Congress I would never put any of those things at risk, I would work with people I hate on the other side to get appropriations bills enacted and ensure the continuity of our federal government because all of those things are important. But I’m not a member of Congress, I’m a lowly federal employee who performs one of the functions you mention above and because of political dysfunction I will have to continue to do my job with delayed pay of weeks or months due to no fault of my own. The people who caused this problem and those who elected them into their jobs will face no consequences. I think that’s wrong and I think they should get exactly what they paid for. I hope a shutdown would become a very rare very short event but we have decided to make these much longer by making them painless to everyone except the federal workforce and I think that has been a very bad decision.

In other words, we have acted to minimize the disruption caused by federal government shutdowns, and confine its worst effects to a relatively small group of people. You are opposed to that, because you are in that group of people. You'd rather everyone suffer in the (vain, in my view) hope that if everyone suffers, they won't happen anymore.

I guess that's where we differ - I don't think it will work, and your path will only increase suffering. You still won't get paid on time (though you won't have to work, I guess), other individuals will suffer, and there may be systemic consequences. Seems like an easy decision to me. Of course, I'm not in the affected group.

DP. No. Here’s where we differ. I see the waste of even near misses. And forget the long shutdowns. Even near misses are a huge waste of time, resources and productivity. I want one painful shutdown (but guaranteed to be short, because airports shut down and people pay attention. It would be over in less than 24 hours) to get the legislation we need to stop future shutdowns by continuing the government at current levels until Congress votes for something else. I see it happen up close and personal and understand that we have reached peak insanity where we keep doing the same thing and expecting that this time it will be something other than wasteful, stressful and expensive. Under Trump, we had multiple shutdown threats and near misses a year. And every single one of them took, time, energy, and money away from us serving the public.

This won’t get better unless something is done to stop the cycle. If that means the threat of retirement and SSI checks not going out and airports shutting down for a day (because that’s what it would be— a day) it’s worth it in the long run to stop these enormously expensive, pointless, productivity sapping exercises going forward. Short term pain. Enormous long term gain.

This isn’t about one shutdown. It’s about getting the leverage to pass legislation to prevent any future shutdowns. And that would be good for this country in many ways. Including economically. Moodys is discussing downgrading our debt if there is a shutdown. There is a cost to the chaos.

Such naivete.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have plane tickets for a weekend trip (planned 8 months ago) over Columbus/Indigenous Peoples weekend. Since I never traveled during past shutdowns, what is the likelihood of ATC and TSA working? (Not that any of us have crystal ball.)

They will force TSA to work unpaid.

That is so sh*tty. So blue collar workers at the TSA will be forced to come in without pay so that the fat-cat Congressmen who caused this shutdown will still be able to jet home?

As well as, of course, every other person who has a flight scheduled during the shutdown. Or would you prefer that all air travel in the country grind to a halt during the shutdown?

Umm yes. That's the point. It's a shutdown of government services because they can't reach any agreement on funding said services.

That should be the outcome when a shutdown is triggered.

So, also the military should stop working? National defense is on hold for the time being - we just hope no one notices? How about the Secret Service? People involved in monitoring nuclear power? Anyone can now wander onto military bases and take whatever they please? I could go on . . .

It's an absurd position, and I think you know that.

It's not absurd, because Joe Average in middle America who thinks the govt has too much money doesn't see the affects of a shutdown. He still gets his SS check, he can call the IRS, his plane still flies.

Average Americas need to see what their Representatives are causing, and they won't see that until it's hard for them.

What about the military? Intelligence agencies? FBI? Homeland Security? ICE? BCP? Embassies and Consulates? How much risk do you want to put the US in? Because if any of these agencies/services are shutdown, then the "pain" may be an invasion, rise in crime that could include loss of life, endangering US citizens abroad, compromise of US national security and more. Do you have any line at all of what is essential? Does your political philosophy in this situation mean that you consider loss of human life is acceptable just to drive the point home? Are you willing to have a foreign terrorist group enter the US and attack the US with no LEO or military to stop them or capture them? Are you willing to sacrifice US citizens in foreign countries to terrorist or military action and offer them no protection? Are you willing to let illegal aliens (or undocumented migrants) enter the nation at an even higher rate than currently are entering because we've eliminated all forms of border monitoring? Are you willing to have a crime spree because the FBI is not working?

If I were a member of Congress I would never put any of those things at risk, I would work with people I hate on the other side to get appropriations bills enacted and ensure the continuity of our federal government because all of those things are important. But I’m not a member of Congress, I’m a lowly federal employee who performs one of the functions you mention above and because of political dysfunction I will have to continue to do my job with delayed pay of weeks or months due to no fault of my own. The people who caused this problem and those who elected them into their jobs will face no consequences. I think that’s wrong and I think they should get exactly what they paid for. I hope a shutdown would become a very rare very short event but we have decided to make these much longer by making them painless to everyone except the federal workforce and I think that has been a very bad decision.

In other words, we have acted to minimize the disruption caused by federal government shutdowns, and confine its worst effects to a relatively small group of people. You are opposed to that, because you are in that group of people. You'd rather everyone suffer in the (vain, in my view) hope that if everyone suffers, they won't happen anymore.

I guess that's where we differ - I don't think it will work, and your path will only increase suffering. You still won't get paid on time (though you won't have to work, I guess), other individuals will suffer, and there may be systemic consequences. Seems like an easy decision to me. Of course, I'm not in the affected group.

Can we agree that what we are doing and have been doing since Clinton doesn’t work? In that case, maybe it’s time for a new plan. The Trump shutdown only ended because of an ATC sickout and airports actually starting to close.

Also, you want to harm a small group. I say share the pain. You do realize that when people vote for Trump and he appoints pro life justices, all of a sudden all women in many states couldn’t access abortion. It hurt everyone, including the wanted pregnancy tragedies, not just the people who voted for it. There is a lot in this country, like guns and abortion, where everyone has to live with what a minority wanted, because if gerrymandering and the structure of the Senate. Why is that okay on guns and abortion, but not shutdowns? Because you haven’t had the misfortune of having or having a loved one actually have a tragedy in pregnancy or a school shooter, but a shutdown might actually hurt you?

Too bad. I’m living with a lot of crappy policies I didn’t vote for. That’s how democracy works.

^ standing ovation

+2! I also will have to work with no pay and think literally everything should grind to a halt. You vacation is not essential, airports should close, trains should stop, because these things require the federal government to operate. Literally everyone should feel the pain of their idiotic votes.

Just stop. No you won't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have plane tickets for a weekend trip (planned 8 months ago) over Columbus/Indigenous Peoples weekend. Since I never traveled during past shutdowns, what is the likelihood of ATC and TSA working? (Not that any of us have crystal ball.)

They will force TSA to work unpaid.

That is so sh*tty. So blue collar workers at the TSA will be forced to come in without pay so that the fat-cat Congressmen who caused this shutdown will still be able to jet home?

As well as, of course, every other person who has a flight scheduled during the shutdown. Or would you prefer that all air travel in the country grind to a halt during the shutdown?

Umm yes. That's the point. It's a shutdown of government services because they can't reach any agreement on funding said services.

That should be the outcome when a shutdown is triggered.

So, also the military should stop working? National defense is on hold for the time being - we just hope no one notices? How about the Secret Service? People involved in monitoring nuclear power? Anyone can now wander onto military bases and take whatever they please? I could go on . . .

It's an absurd position, and I think you know that.

It is more absurd to have millions of Americans working without pay because the political leadership is dysfunctional. No other industry has to do this, but every few years we expect millions of civil servants and members of the military to quietly do their jobs with no pay because their jobs are very important to the daily functioning of our country and the public couldn't be inconvenienced. Shut down all of the airports, absolutely. Business leaders with influence would force the politicians to find a solution. Instead we have a bunch of GS-7 TSA employees bearing the cost of this dysfunction and they are the least to blame with the most to lose.

Can we please stop with the "working without pay" nonsense? No government worker is "working without pay." The pay is delayed. (Contractors, of course don't get paid, and I really feel sorry for them.) What is really happening is that all government workers get paid late, and many get paid for not working.

You all are coming at this form the point of view of the workers, which is understandable. But from the perspective of a person not involved, it's far more important to minimize disruption to the rest of the country, and economy, than it is to take draconian measures to try to prevent shutdowns. And it's unfortunate that federal employees' pay is *delayed* - but that's far better, for the country as a whole, than shutting down entirely.

My mortgage is still due on time. We need food and the water bill paid and gas in the car because we are still expected to go to work. These don't get "delayed". And yes, we have savings for emergencies. And yes we have credit cards. However, you are still putting the onus of the shutdown on workers.

Far better for the country would be not to have this type of instability to begin with.

Even worse, you are likely a GS-13 or higher being paid in the six figures (which is the majority of federal workers who post on DCUM). The same thing is happening to GS-1 through GS-10 workers who are making low to mid five figures. Many of them don't have emergency options like savings to pay bills due while not getting a paycheck. Some of them might be able to swing one month of missed mortgage payments, but many do not have two months of mortgage and utilities and food bills, etc to cover more than a month of delayed payment.

And while the PP feels really sorry for the contractors, the federal contract workforce is almost double the federal civil service workforce. There are roughly 1.2M civil service employees and well over 2M federal contractors. Of those federal contractors, only a small portion have forward funded contracts that allow them to work. There are millions of contractors who will not get paid for time off during a shutdown. So, PP's sympathy is pretty much worth the same as conservatives "thoughts and prayers" when children are slaughtered by guns.

What we really need is to have rules on automatic continuance of federal pay for employees (both civil service and contractors) during a shutdown. Pay for employees needs to be pulled from discretionary spending and put into essential funding that is not covered by lack of appropriations. There are many things that are not included in discretionary spending and we need to move employee pay from one side of the ledger to the other so that federal employees (both civil service and contractor) are no longer political pawns of the childish Congress.

If not, then perhaps a rule that the Congressional appropriations bill should be the last bill to pass. In several of these shutdowns, the Congressional appropriations was passed when others were not, so that the Congress and their staff were paid to work through the shutdown while others were not. Congressmen should learn to work without pay or have their pay delayed until after they do their jobs and if they have to do their jobs with no staffers to help them, then maybe they'll actually feel like acting more like an adult than like a toddler.

I am the PP everyone hates, and I don't have a problem with this. I would note, however, that you are arguing that the government should mitigate the effect of the shutdown, not make it worse. That's exactly what I'm saying. Your fellow travelers, on the other hand, want to shut down everything - make the consequences for the country much worse if a shutdown happens.

We live in a representative democracy. My fellow Americans voted for the buffoons who are voting for a shutdown. Many of them are cheering these clowns on. If my fellow citizens vote for people who don’t hide the fact they want shutdowns, like the FC, then they should get actual shutdowns. Why would we protect people from the consequences of their votes? Nobody held a gun to their head and made them vote for Matt Gaetz. If they become the dogs who catch the car, they should have to live with the consequences. Maybe they will contact their Rep and tell them to cut it out. And then the Rep will, or lose the next election. It’s how democracy works.

I don’t believe it’s healthy to give people a choice on — anything really— and then work as hard as we can to protect them from the downsides of that choice. That’s called enabling. And no, we shouldn’t enable the crazy caucus on the backs of GS7s.

Exactly - people think federal employees do nothing - let them see what happens when feds really aren't working.

The ones who don't have to come in, yeah you don't do a whole lot. The ones that have to keep working actually do work.