Boundary Review Meetings

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is capacity related only to building size or is it related to staffing

There are two: building capacity and program capacity.

Building capacity is how many students was the building physically designed for. But program capacity is how many students can be a room for a specific program.

For example, a preschool classroom (Head Start, Preschool Autism, etc) will have a lower program capacity than if the same room is used for a general ed 6th grade classroom. You're not going to put 30 preschoolers with autism into the same physical space as 30 general ed 6th graders. Those 30 preschoolers may be spread out over 5 different classrooms.

The thing is, I reviewed the most recent CIP to the one the year before the capacity change and there didn’t appear to be any change to programming at Kilmer, from what I could tell.

If only they would release the new CIP, but alas, I guess they don't do that until the meeting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Both Madison and Marshall can be challenging to get to during rush hour from the Buehlah / Clarks Crossing / Meadowlark area - with a few minutes time difference on average with outliers here and there. What is occurring is vocal families that have moved into the area over the last five to 10 years want a school that is less socio-economic diverse (Marshall: 15.89% English Learner versus Madison 6.11%; Marshall: 20.78% Free/Reduce Fee Lunch versus Madison 10.26%; Marshall: 39.95% White (Not Of Hispanic Origin) versus Madison: 58.11%). There is strong pride for Marshall by those that are attending and have attended Marshall from impacted neighborhoods and those families are, for the most part, happy they ended up there instead of Madison. Marshall is a great school and unfortunately families with children at Wolftrap ES currently have become confused with the constant chatter about Madison being so great. There will always be a few families that want to go to Madison as it is more a sports oriented school and their AP program but those are outliers.

As a parent of young kids at Wolftrap ES, I understand what you are saying... We knew we were zoned for Marshall when we bought out house and were fine with it, it is a great school and we were happy to attend there. I don't think most people's hopes to switch are as nefarious as you are making it sound, at least in my experience and conversations (granted I am taking people at their word, so I do allow for the possibility that deep down it could be about socio economic status for some of them as you say).

I think people love both Wolftrap and Marshall. But, the split feeder thing is tough, especially for young families zoned for Marshall watching their kids start to form friendships at a young age with kids zoned for Madison (i.e. our kid's entire tee ball team lived in Eudora neighborhood and would eventually go to Madison, except for our daughter!). So when this boundary process started to take off, and scenarios 1-3 showed all of Eudora moving from Kilmer to Thoreau and starting the split in middle school instead of high school, the split feeder factor started to feel a lot more daunting. A chunk of Wolftrap that is zoned for Marshall was moving to Westbriar in Scenarios 1-3, reducing that cohort group further. One of the early stated goals was to reduce split feeder patterns and it felt like this was carving our piece of Wolftrap into an even smaller part that was not attending Thoreau/Madison. Everyone I know is glad to have all of Wolftrap move up together. We would have been just as happy if all of Wolftrap was switched to Marshall, but I understand the people currently zoned for Madison would have thrown a fit.

[Anonymous]

Can we address the fact that Oakton does not have its own middle school aligned with its high school and the fact that you have not had time to think about that because of the fact you guys are all established where you are and don’t see the big issue with your kids’ split feeding.

You FCPS parents lack real thought and only seek things that come to benefit you all in such a selfish and narcissistic demeanor that prevents real work from taking place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can we address the fact that Oakton does not have its own middle school aligned with its high school and the fact that you have not had time to think about that because of the fact you guys are all established where you are and don’t see the big issue with your kids’ split feeding.

You FCPS parents lack real thought and only seek things that come to benefit you all in such a selfish and narcissistic demeanor that prevents real work from taking place.

Yeah, how come not everyone on this board is focused on Oakton? Why are you selfish people talking about other areas of the county? This is the Oakton thread and not some stupid Boundary Review Meetings thread....oh wait.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can we address the fact that Oakton does not have its own middle school aligned with its high school and the fact that you have not had time to think about that because of the fact you guys are all established where you are and don’t see the big issue with your kids’ split feeding.

You FCPS parents lack real thought and only seek things that come to benefit you all in such a selfish and narcissistic demeanor that prevents real work from taking place.

Why didn't we see the obvious solution -- conjure up a middle school out of thin air.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can we address the fact that Oakton does not have its own middle school aligned with its high school and the fact that you have not had time to think about that because of the fact you guys are all established where you are and don’t see the big issue with your kids’ split feeding.

You FCPS parents lack real thought and only seek things that come to benefit you all in such a selfish and narcissistic demeanor that prevents real work from taking place.[/quote

Where were they going to put it? There is no land available within 5 miles of Oakton, for you people that drive 45 minutes to Oakton ES, HS, while passing a more than a few schools that are actually much closer to your house pipe down. I have no interest in my kiddo doing a 45 minute commute to a MS on the other side, outer edges of the county, where their might actually be some land, just because it sucks for people who would have screamed bloody murder if they's been rezoned to elementary, middle and highschools that were you know close to where they actually lived and thus community schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can we address the fact that Oakton does not have its own middle school aligned with its high school and the fact that you have not had time to think about that because of the fact you guys are all established where you are and don’t see the big issue with your kids’ split feeding.

You FCPS parents lack real thought and only seek things that come to benefit you all in such a selfish and narcissistic demeanor that prevents real work from taking place.

Where were they going to put it?

There is no land available within 5 miles of Oakton. And as for the people that drive 45 minutes to Oakton ES, HS, while passing more than a few schools that are actually much closer to your house, pipe down. Because I have no interest in my kiddo doing a 45 minute commute to a MS on the other side of the county, in outer edges of the Oakton/Reston, where there might actually be some land.

Why on earth would anyone who lives close to Oakton ES and Oakton HS, be interested in that, I'm sure it sucks, but those very same people who would have screamed bloody murder if the county could actually do the right thing but tough thing and rezone people to elementary, middle and highschools that were, you know close to where they actually lived. And yes your actual neighborhood schools would probably have a have a lot more poors in them, but they would be your poors, and they would be your community schools.

[Anonymous]

Lots of split feeder middle schools.

Nothing special or interesting about Oakton, and there's plenty of capacity in the western middle schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can we address the fact that Oakton does not have its own middle school aligned with its high school and the fact that you have not had time to think about that because of the fact you guys are all established where you are and don’t see the big issue with your kids’ split feeding.

You FCPS parents lack real thought and only seek things that come to benefit you all in such a selfish and narcissistic demeanor that prevents real work from taking place.

Why didn't we see the obvious solution -- conjure up a middle school out of thin air.

It wouldn’t exactly be conjured up, but Franklin would close become something else or have the site be redeveloped into another condo building or townhomes (would love to see that), and if you buy flint hill’s lower a hoop, that could be enough land to build a 3 story middle school with a capacity of 1200.

[Anonymous]

Does anyone think the Board will make any changes to her proposal or just approve as is? Also, her recommendation is missing an implementation date. I guess we assume next school year but she doesn't come out and say that. I can't believe they didn't pause this after they acquired the new high school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone think the Board will make any changes to her proposal or just approve as is? Also, her recommendation is missing an implementation date. I guess we assume next school year but she doesn't come out and say that. I can't believe they didn't pause this after they acquired the new high school.

It depends. The public hearing will probably be flooded with families urging that no further changes be made than what was proposed, so it’ll probably be a wash. Things like Westbriar/Kilmer/Madison and Rolling Valley/Key/Lewis may ping the radar. I’m sure the school board will make a tizzy about the lack of attention paid to policy 8130 (lots of split feeders, attendance islands, and transportation not addressed) but will then pass it anyway saying they’ll do better next time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the Kilmer / Thoreau issue they need to modify so that Wolftrap splits at the middle school level - those assigned to Madison go to Thoreau and those assigned to Marshall go to Kilmer. They would then move the <5 percent group you reference at Kilmer to Thoreau and those students would feed into Madison.

Why? They did what you said and also eliminated the split at middle school. All of Wolftrap now goes to Thoreau then Madison, which addresses your point about Thoreau to Madison consistency. Why do you say they need to split Wolftrap? That community is clearly very against the middle school split, as opposed to the Town of Vienna people at Westbriar who like their split.

DP. Most of the Marshall people in Falls Church at Shrevewood and Lemon Road did not want to move to McLean, apart from that group of Pimmit Hills parents at Lemon Road, but most of the Marshall families at Wolftrap want to move to Madison. They live in Vienna and identify with Madison being the “Vienna high school.”

It’s not positive for Marshall in terms of the demographic impact, but they wanted to bring down the Kilmer enrollment and they did listen to the feedback.

A lot of changes could have been avoided if they’d prioritized additions to Kilmer MS and McLean HS over expansions of random elementary schools (and Herndon HS) but that’s never happened.

What’s really odd is that Kilmer does have building capacity. In 2023-24 it had 1227 seats, but then last year it was abruptly cut to 1023. It would be at 98% capacity (with modular) if that change hadn’t been made. Even before the modular was installed, capacity was 1143 which would put it at 106% without the modular. I’m not sure why they’re so keen to fill Thoreau with over 1400 kids. Seems like a nightmare for middle school.

I saw that as well but I’m also sure it was raised with FCPS by BRAC and other community members. I don’t know but one possibility could be that Kilmer Center space had been included with Kilmer MS space and then that square footage got backed out?

Thoreau is going to end up around the size of Carson and Longfellow at their peak but it did get a sizable expansion and at some point it seems inevitable that Oakton kids will be sent back to Jackson.

I’m not sure Oakton to Jackson is a foregone conclusion. With Mason Crest feeding fully to Falls Church HS, the next logical step may be to turn it into a K-6 elementary school like the rest of the pyramid and send them to Jackson MS.

If they move forward with plans to do the same to Bren Mar Park (K-6) to align it with Key/Lewis, then Holmes MS could potentially close and they could feed Annandale entirely through Poe.

Very few things relating to these boundaries are foregone conclusions. But there are two different issues.

One is how large Thoreau stands to get if kids move from Kilmer to Thoreau and the Thoreau-zoned AAP kids now at Jackson and Kilmer return to Thoreau. Nothing that FCPS does with Mason Crest, Beech Tree, Bren Mar Park, Glasgow, Poe, Holmes, Key, Justice, Falls Church, Annandale, or Edison has any impact on this.

So, in theory, yes, they could make Jackson a straight feeder to Falls Church, Poe a straight feeder to Annandale, and Bren Mar Park a feeder to Key/Lewis, and close Holmes, but (1) that won't do anything for Thoreau; and (2) given the focus on downsizing Glasgow based on the conclusion that it just has too many kids (regardless of the design/program capacity), they seem unlikely to go down the path of turning Poe into another Glasgow.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone think the Board will make any changes to her proposal or just approve as is? Also, her recommendation is missing an implementation date. I guess we assume next school year but she doesn't come out and say that. I can't believe they didn't pause this after they acquired the new high school.

It depends. The public hearing will probably be flooded with families urging that no further changes be made than what was proposed, so it’ll probably be a wash. Things like Westbriar/Kilmer/Madison and Rolling Valley/Key/Lewis may ping the radar. I’m sure the school board will make a tizzy about the lack of attention paid to policy 8130 (lots of split feeders, attendance islands, and transportation not addressed) but will then pass it anyway saying they’ll do better next time.

I'm thinking not many will show up to the public hearing which will give the administration and the board a sense they did a good job. If one were to interview all the families that will be immediately impacted by the proposal I wonder what percentage actually know their children may be at a different school next year. Ultimately this generally turned into loud voices getting wants which was generally going to be the case as there were very few needs to change anything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the Kilmer / Thoreau issue they need to modify so that Wolftrap splits at the middle school level - those assigned to Madison go to Thoreau and those assigned to Marshall go to Kilmer. They would then move the <5 percent group you reference at Kilmer to Thoreau and those students would feed into Madison.

Why? They did what you said and also eliminated the split at middle school. All of Wolftrap now goes to Thoreau then Madison, which addresses your point about Thoreau to Madison consistency. Why do you say they need to split Wolftrap? That community is clearly very against the middle school split, as opposed to the Town of Vienna people at Westbriar who like their split.

I live in the community and have students attending Marshall and there has been no outreach to gather input from the community - push by current Wolftrap families is not the same as community input that involves those with students at other levels, not in school yet, or previously had students there.

People with kids already at Marshall won’t bad-mouth it but families with younger kids jumped at the chance to attend Madison. They live in Vienna, the Madison-bound parents constantly talk up Madison, and it’s a slog to get to Marshall from the Wolftrap area (unless you go well out of the way you have to go through the heart of Tysons).

Both Madison and Marshall can be challenging to get to during rush hour from the Buehlah / Clarks Crossing / Meadowlark area - with a few minutes time difference on average with outliers here and there. What is occurring is vocal families that have moved into the area over the last five to 10 years want a school that is less socio-economic diverse (Marshall: 15.89% English Learner versus Madison 6.11%; Marshall: 20.78% Free/Reduce Fee Lunch versus Madison 10.26%; Marshall: 39.95% White (Not Of Hispanic Origin) versus Madison: 58.11%). There is strong pride for Marshall by those that are attending and have attended Marshall from impacted neighborhoods and those families are, for the most part, happy they ended up there instead of Madison. Marshall is a great school and unfortunately families with children at Wolftrap ES currently have become confused with the constant chatter about Madison being so great. There will always be a few families that want to go to Madison as it is more a sports oriented school and their AP program but those are outliers.

Nah, this is nothing new. Given a choice, most families at Wolftrap long would have opted for Madison over Marshall given a choice, but for years Marshall's enrollment was so low that it never entered anyone's mind that they would move kids from Marshall to Madison. Also, Madison had not been expanded, so it didn't have the 2500 seats it now has (and which, to some degree, FCPS needs to justify, since it expanded Madison outside the renovation queue and ignored other schools like Annandale and McLean).

So it's not like those who moved into the Wolftrap/Kilmer/Marshall over the last 5-10 years behave any differently than their predecessors. They just see an opportunity that wasn't previously available.

People with kids there are generally satisfied with Marshall, but it's in Falls Church rather than Vienna, it has IB (less popular), traffic through the heart of Tysons is still worse than Maple Avenue (as congested as Maple can also get) and its sports teams aren't the same caliber. That's not irrelevant in Vienna, which is a very sports-oriented area.

In "real life," Madison and Marshall families generally are respectful of each other's schools, but more than one Madison family from the Wolftrap area asked us if our kids felt safe at Marshall. It's seemed passive-aggressive, since they'd sent their kids to Kilmer, and about 85% of Kilmer feeds to Marshall.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can we address the fact that Oakton does not have its own middle school aligned with its high school and the fact that you have not had time to think about that because of the fact you guys are all established where you are and don’t see the big issue with your kids’ split feeding.

You FCPS parents lack real thought and only seek things that come to benefit you all in such a selfish and narcissistic demeanor that prevents real work from taking place.

I'd be fine making Franklin the only Oakton middle school and even paying to expand Franklin as needed, although you could end up with Franklin being outside of its attendance area and kids next door to Franklin attending Chantilly or Western rather than Oakton.

Otherwise, I'm kind of bored with the demands for a brand-new Oakton middle school when other schools have capacity and needs of their own. Maybe Flint Hill will have a crisis of some sort and fall into FCPS's lap like KAA fell into their lap.