Boundary Review Meetings

[Anonymous]

Is capacity related only to building size or is it related to staffing

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They should also make Marshall road elementary school an Oakton only high school feeder like they did wolftrap. Everything is so mixed up. They really should have done a real comprehensive boundary review with western high school boundary in the mix before making any changes.

Well drop AAP at Mosaic and assign the Marshall Road students south of 66 to Mosaic, then unite fling hill by giving up the Madison part of Oakton.

Then move the Chantilly feeding part of Navy to Lees corner with the 12 kids off of Ashvale, and not that part of Cub Run!

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It doesn’t explain why they decided to not make a decision. Halley still has an attendance island. Are they too afraid to make a decision?

They got a lot of push back. I think for some areas they’re waiting and hoping the temperature drops? I don’t see that happening but whatever.

I think they really wanted them at Gunston, but due to the efforts of the Mason Neck Citizens Group, and probably also the physical state of Gunston ES, that’s not going to be feasible without big renovations to the school. So now it’s a big hot potato of do they move kids out of Gunston to I guess Island Creek to make room at Gunston? (That’s a long bus ride). Do they add Hagel to Lorton Station and then try to make moves to get LSES as a SC feeder? Not really possible right now without overcrowding South County MS and HS though. Do they add it to Lorton Station/Hayfield and then wash their hands of the whole thing? Do they try to add it to Laurel Hill which makes a nice border on paper but still ends up with a long bus ride? (And another overcrowded school at Laurel Hill as well). Are they ok with potentially taking LSES, which is a big feeder school, out of Hayfield and leaving Hayfield under-enrolled, assuming they’ll need the capacity at Hayfield to relieve Edison? But if Edison needs relief, the first places to look should be under-enrolled Lewis and over-expanded West Potomac.

I really think to solve the South County overcrowding, they should send kids from Springfield to Lewis. Anyways that bus ride for them is about 10-15 minutes so they might as well go to Lewis and let Lorton Students stay in Lorton.

Lorton station elementary students are closest to South County while some Springfield students go to south county. Not right. They should be at Lewis and they’ve got plenty of capacity

The only Springfield kids at SC are in Newington Forest, in which case they’d be bussed the whole way down the parkway to Key and Lewis, past the attendance areas for both Hunt Valley and Rolling Valley, which both go to West Springfield. That would be a gigantic border gerrymander. And at that point people would rightly wonder why it wasn’t at least part of Hunt Valley at Lewis and we’re suddenly back on that nonsense again. South County is fine as is and doesn’t need to lose any students. It’s just if they want it to gain a few hundred from Lorton Station that’s where the problem comes in.

Isn't Newington Forest in Lorton?

Thet would also go past Daventry and West Springfield Elementary.

Daventry is the neighborhood you should be focused on. They were recently zoned to Lewis, and are part of the Franconia magesterial district, not the Springfield district. Daventry and Keene Mill elementary are the closest West Springfield areas to Lewis by a long shot.

Whoever is saying that Newington should attend Lewis is not looking at maps.

There are no Springfield kids at South County. OP is confused. It’s entirely Lorton, Mason Neck, and Fairfax Station.

Technically Newington Forest elementary and the neighborhood has a Springfield 22153 address, same as Hunt Valley. But South County is definitely our closest school. Even West Springfield is a bit of a hike from here but is still closer than Lewis.

Hunt Valley is 22152

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:For the Kilmer / Thoreau issue they need to modify so that Wolftrap splits at the middle school level - those assigned to Madison go to Thoreau and those assigned to Marshall go to Kilmer. They would then move the <5 percent group you reference at Kilmer to Thoreau and those students would feed into Madison.

Why? They did what you said and also eliminated the split at middle school. All of Wolftrap now goes to Thoreau then Madison, which addresses your point about Thoreau to Madison consistency. Why do you say they need to split Wolftrap? That community is clearly very against the middle school split, as opposed to the Town of Vienna people at Westbriar who like their split.

I live in the community and have students attending Marshall and there has been no outreach to gather input from the community - push by current Wolftrap families is not the same as community input that involves those with students at other levels, not in school yet, or previously had students there.

People with kids already at Marshall won’t bad-mouth it but families with younger kids jumped at the chance to attend Madison. They live in Vienna, the Madison-bound parents constantly talk up Madison, and it’s a slog to get to Marshall from the Wolftrap area (unless you go well out of the way you have to go through the heart of Tysons).

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:For the Kilmer / Thoreau issue they need to modify so that Wolftrap splits at the middle school level - those assigned to Madison go to Thoreau and those assigned to Marshall go to Kilmer. They would then move the <5 percent group you reference at Kilmer to Thoreau and those students would feed into Madison.

Why? They did what you said and also eliminated the split at middle school. All of Wolftrap now goes to Thoreau then Madison, which addresses your point about Thoreau to Madison consistency. Why do you say they need to split Wolftrap? That community is clearly very against the middle school split, as opposed to the Town of Vienna people at Westbriar who like their split.

DP. Most of the Marshall people in Falls Church at Shrevewood and Lemon Road did not want to move to McLean, apart from that group of Pimmit Hills parents at Lemon Road, but most of the Marshall families at Wolftrap want to move to Madison. They live in Vienna and identify with Madison being the “Vienna high school.”

It’s not positive for Marshall in terms of the demographic impact, but they wanted to bring down the Kilmer enrollment and they did listen to the feedback.

A lot of changes could have been avoided if they’d prioritized additions to Kilmer MS and McLean HS over expansions of random elementary schools (and Herndon HS) but that’s never happened.

What’s really odd is that Kilmer does have building capacity. In 2023-24 it had 1227 seats, but then last year it was abruptly cut to 1023. It would be at 98% capacity (with modular) if that change hadn’t been made. Even before the modular was installed, capacity was 1143 which would put it at 106% without the modular. I’m not sure why they’re so keen to fill Thoreau with over 1400 kids. Seems like a nightmare for middle school.

I saw that as well but I’m also sure it was raised with FCPS by BRAC and other community members. I don’t know but one possibility could be that Kilmer Center space had been included with Kilmer MS space and then that square footage got backed out?

Thoreau is going to end up around the size of Carson and Longfellow at their peak but it did get a sizable expansion and at some point it seems inevitable that Oakton kids will be sent back to Jackson.

I’m not sure Oakton to Jackson is a foregone conclusion. With Mason Crest feeding fully to Falls Church HS, the next logical step may be to turn it into a K-6 elementary school like the rest of the pyramid and send them to Jackson MS.

If they move forward with plans to do the same to Bren Mar Park (K-6) to align it with Key/Lewis, then Holmes MS could potentially close and they could feed Annandale entirely through Poe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is capacity related only to building size or is it related to staffing

They are working with program capacity rather than design capacity so it also takes special programs and classroom sizes into account. That’s why you’ll see some schools with a lot of trailers and program capacities a lot lower than their design capacities.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It doesn’t explain why they decided to not make a decision. Halley still has an attendance island. Are they too afraid to make a decision?

They got a lot of push back. I think for some areas they’re waiting and hoping the temperature drops? I don’t see that happening but whatever.

I think they really wanted them at Gunston, but due to the efforts of the Mason Neck Citizens Group, and probably also the physical state of Gunston ES, that’s not going to be feasible without big renovations to the school. So now it’s a big hot potato of do they move kids out of Gunston to I guess Island Creek to make room at Gunston? (That’s a long bus ride). Do they add Hagel to Lorton Station and then try to make moves to get LSES as a SC feeder? Not really possible right now without overcrowding South County MS and HS though. Do they add it to Lorton Station/Hayfield and then wash their hands of the whole thing? Do they try to add it to Laurel Hill which makes a nice border on paper but still ends up with a long bus ride? (And another overcrowded school at Laurel Hill as well). Are they ok with potentially taking LSES, which is a big feeder school, out of Hayfield and leaving Hayfield under-enrolled, assuming they’ll need the capacity at Hayfield to relieve Edison? But if Edison needs relief, the first places to look should be under-enrolled Lewis and over-expanded West Potomac.

I really think to solve the South County overcrowding, they should send kids from Springfield to Lewis. Anyways that bus ride for them is about 10-15 minutes so they might as well go to Lewis and let Lorton Students stay in Lorton.

Lorton station elementary students are closest to South County while some Springfield students go to south county. Not right. They should be at Lewis and they’ve got plenty of capacity

The only Springfield kids at SC are in Newington Forest, in which case they’d be bussed the whole way down the parkway to Key and Lewis, past the attendance areas for both Hunt Valley and Rolling Valley, which both go to West Springfield. That would be a gigantic border gerrymander. And at that point people would rightly wonder why it wasn’t at least part of Hunt Valley at Lewis and we’re suddenly back on that nonsense again. South County is fine as is and doesn’t need to lose any students. It’s just if they want it to gain a few hundred from Lorton Station that’s where the problem comes in.

Isn't Newington Forest in Lorton?

Thet would also go past Daventry and West Springfield Elementary.

Daventry is the neighborhood you should be focused on. They were recently zoned to Lewis, and are part of the Franconia magesterial district, not the Springfield district. Daventry and Keene Mill elementary are the closest West Springfield areas to Lewis by a long shot.

Whoever is saying that Newington should attend Lewis is not looking at maps.

There are no Springfield kids at South County. OP is confused. It’s entirely Lorton, Mason Neck, and Fairfax Station.

Technically Newington Forest elementary and the neighborhood has a Springfield 22153 address, same as Hunt Valley. But South County is definitely our closest school. Even West Springfield is a bit of a hike from here but is still closer than Lewis.

Hunt Valley is 22152

The southern part of HV near Sydenstricker Methodist and off Gambrill is 22153. Actually so is Sangster and the neighborhoods near it by the Giant, now that I think about it. Are you going to send Sangster to Lewis because they have a Springfield address? Lol.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is capacity related only to building size or is it related to staffing

There are two: building capacity and program capacity.

Building capacity is how many students was the building physically designed for. But program capacity is how many students can be a room for a specific program.

For example, a preschool classroom (Head Start, Preschool Autism, etc) will have a lower program capacity than if the same room is used for a general ed 6th grade classroom. You're not going to put 30 preschoolers with autism into the same physical space as 30 general ed 6th graders. Those 30 preschoolers may be spread out over 5 different classrooms.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is capacity related only to building size or is it related to staffing

There are two: building capacity and program capacity.

Building capacity is how many students was the building physically designed for. But program capacity is how many students can be a room for a specific program.

For example, a preschool classroom (Head Start, Preschool Autism, etc) will have a lower program capacity than if the same room is used for a general ed 6th grade classroom. You're not going to put 30 preschoolers with autism into the same physical space as 30 general ed 6th graders. Those 30 preschoolers may be spread out over 5 different classrooms.

The thing is, I reviewed the most recent CIP to the one the year before the capacity change and there didn’t appear to be any change to programming at Kilmer, from what I could tell.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:For the Kilmer / Thoreau issue they need to modify so that Wolftrap splits at the middle school level - those assigned to Madison go to Thoreau and those assigned to Marshall go to Kilmer. They would then move the <5 percent group you reference at Kilmer to Thoreau and those students would feed into Madison.

Why? They did what you said and also eliminated the split at middle school. All of Wolftrap now goes to Thoreau then Madison, which addresses your point about Thoreau to Madison consistency. Why do you say they need to split Wolftrap? That community is clearly very against the middle school split, as opposed to the Town of Vienna people at Westbriar who like their split.

DP. Most of the Marshall people in Falls Church at Shrevewood and Lemon Road did not want to move to McLean, apart from that group of Pimmit Hills parents at Lemon Road, but most of the Marshall families at Wolftrap want to move to Madison. They live in Vienna and identify with Madison being the “Vienna high school.”

It’s not positive for Marshall in terms of the demographic impact, but they wanted to bring down the Kilmer enrollment and they did listen to the feedback.

A lot of changes could have been avoided if they’d prioritized additions to Kilmer MS and McLean HS over expansions of random elementary schools (and Herndon HS) but that’s never happened.

What’s really odd is that Kilmer does have building capacity. In 2023-24 it had 1227 seats, but then last year it was abruptly cut to 1023. It would be at 98% capacity (with modular) if that change hadn’t been made. Even before the modular was installed, capacity was 1143 which would put it at 106% without the modular. I’m not sure why they’re so keen to fill Thoreau with over 1400 kids. Seems like a nightmare for middle school.

I saw that as well but I’m also sure it was raised with FCPS by BRAC and other community members. I don’t know but one possibility could be that Kilmer Center space had been included with Kilmer MS space and then that square footage got backed out?

Thoreau is going to end up around the size of Carson and Longfellow at their peak but it did get a sizable expansion and at some point it seems inevitable that Oakton kids will be sent back to Jackson.

I’m not sure Oakton to Jackson is a foregone conclusion. With Mason Crest feeding fully to Falls Church HS, the next logical step may be to turn it into a K-6 elementary school like the rest of the pyramid and send them to Jackson MS.

If they move forward with plans to do the same to Bren Mar Park (K-6) to align it with Key/Lewis, then Holmes MS could potentially close and they could feed Annandale entirely through Poe.

Yeah.

I’ve thought about this idea too, but wouldn’t that put Poe upwards of 1500 students?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the Kilmer / Thoreau issue they need to modify so that Wolftrap splits at the middle school level - those assigned to Madison go to Thoreau and those assigned to Marshall go to Kilmer. They would then move the <5 percent group you reference at Kilmer to Thoreau and those students would feed into Madison.

Why? They did what you said and also eliminated the split at middle school. All of Wolftrap now goes to Thoreau then Madison, which addresses your point about Thoreau to Madison consistency. Why do you say they need to split Wolftrap? That community is clearly very against the middle school split, as opposed to the Town of Vienna people at Westbriar who like their split.

I live in the community and have students attending Marshall and there has been no outreach to gather input from the community - push by current Wolftrap families is not the same as community input that involves those with students at other levels, not in school yet, or previously had students there.

People with kids already at Marshall won’t bad-mouth it but families with younger kids jumped at the chance to attend Madison. They live in Vienna, the Madison-bound parents constantly talk up Madison, and it’s a slog to get to Marshall from the Wolftrap area (unless you go well out of the way you have to go through the heart of Tysons).

Both Madison and Marshall can be challenging to get to during rush hour from the Buehlah / Clarks Crossing / Meadowlark area - with a few minutes time difference on average with outliers here and there. What is occurring is vocal families that have moved into the area over the last five to 10 years want a school that is less socio-economic diverse (Marshall: 15.89% English Learner versus Madison 6.11%; Marshall: 20.78% Free/Reduce Fee Lunch versus Madison 10.26%; Marshall: 39.95% White (Not Of Hispanic Origin) versus Madison: 58.11%). There is strong pride for Marshall by those that are attending and have attended Marshall from impacted neighborhoods and those families are, for the most part, happy they ended up there instead of Madison. Marshall is a great school and unfortunately families with children at Wolftrap ES currently have become confused with the constant chatter about Madison being so great. There will always be a few families that want to go to Madison as it is more a sports oriented school and their AP program but those are outliers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the Kilmer / Thoreau issue they need to modify so that Wolftrap splits at the middle school level - those assigned to Madison go to Thoreau and those assigned to Marshall go to Kilmer. They would then move the <5 percent group you reference at Kilmer to Thoreau and those students would feed into Madison.

Why? They did what you said and also eliminated the split at middle school. All of Wolftrap now goes to Thoreau then Madison, which addresses your point about Thoreau to Madison consistency. Why do you say they need to split Wolftrap? That community is clearly very against the middle school split, as opposed to the Town of Vienna people at Westbriar who like their split.

DP. Most of the Marshall people in Falls Church at Shrevewood and Lemon Road did not want to move to McLean, apart from that group of Pimmit Hills parents at Lemon Road, but most of the Marshall families at Wolftrap want to move to Madison. They live in Vienna and identify with Madison being the “Vienna high school.”

It’s not positive for Marshall in terms of the demographic impact, but they wanted to bring down the Kilmer enrollment and they did listen to the feedback.

A lot of changes could have been avoided if they’d prioritized additions to Kilmer MS and McLean HS over expansions of random elementary schools (and Herndon HS) but that’s never happened.

What’s really odd is that Kilmer does have building capacity. In 2023-24 it had 1227 seats, but then last year it was abruptly cut to 1023. It would be at 98% capacity (with modular) if that change hadn’t been made. Even before the modular was installed, capacity was 1143 which would put it at 106% without the modular. I’m not sure why they’re so keen to fill Thoreau with over 1400 kids. Seems like a nightmare for middle school.

I saw that as well but I’m also sure it was raised with FCPS by BRAC and other community members. I don’t know but one possibility could be that Kilmer Center space had been included with Kilmer MS space and then that square footage got backed out?

Thoreau is going to end up around the size of Carson and Longfellow at their peak but it did get a sizable expansion and at some point it seems inevitable that Oakton kids will be sent back to Jackson.

I’m not sure Oakton to Jackson is a foregone conclusion. With Mason Crest feeding fully to Falls Church HS, the next logical step may be to turn it into a K-6 elementary school like the rest of the pyramid and send them to Jackson MS.

If they move forward with plans to do the same to Bren Mar Park (K-6) to align it with Key/Lewis, then Holmes MS could potentially close and they could feed Annandale entirely through Poe.

Yeah.

I’ve thought about this idea too, but wouldn’t that put Poe upwards of 1500 students?

You’re right, I forgot it was a 3 year middle school instead of 2.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:It doesn’t explain why they decided to not make a decision. Halley still has an attendance island. Are they too afraid to make a decision?

They got a lot of push back. I think for some areas they’re waiting and hoping the temperature drops? I don’t see that happening but whatever.

I think they really wanted them at Gunston, but due to the efforts of the Mason Neck Citizens Group, and probably also the physical state of Gunston ES, that’s not going to be feasible without big renovations to the school. So now it’s a big hot potato of do they move kids out of Gunston to I guess Island Creek to make room at Gunston? (That’s a long bus ride). Do they add Hagel to Lorton Station and then try to make moves to get LSES as a SC feeder? Not really possible right now without overcrowding South County MS and HS though. Do they add it to Lorton Station/Hayfield and then wash their hands of the whole thing? Do they try to add it to Laurel Hill which makes a nice border on paper but still ends up with a long bus ride? (And another overcrowded school at Laurel Hill as well). Are they ok with potentially taking LSES, which is a big feeder school, out of Hayfield and leaving Hayfield under-enrolled, assuming they’ll need the capacity at Hayfield to relieve Edison? But if Edison needs relief, the first places to look should be under-enrolled Lewis and over-expanded West Potomac.

I really think to solve the South County overcrowding, they should send kids from Springfield to Lewis. Anyways that bus ride for them is about 10-15 minutes so they might as well go to Lewis and let Lorton Students stay in Lorton.

Lorton station elementary students are closest to South County while some Springfield students go to south county. Not right. They should be at Lewis and they’ve got plenty of capacity

The only Springfield kids at SC are in Newington Forest, in which case they’d be bussed the whole way down the parkway to Key and Lewis, past the attendance areas for both Hunt Valley and Rolling Valley, which both go to West Springfield. That would be a gigantic border gerrymander. And at that point people would rightly wonder why it wasn’t at least part of Hunt Valley at Lewis and we’re suddenly back on that nonsense again. South County is fine as is and doesn’t need to lose any students. It’s just if they want it to gain a few hundred from Lorton Station that’s where the problem comes in.

Isn't Newington Forest in Lorton?

Thet would also go past Daventry and West Springfield Elementary.

Daventry is the neighborhood you should be focused on. They were recently zoned to Lewis, and are part of the Franconia magesterial district, not the Springfield district. Daventry and Keene Mill elementary are the closest West Springfield areas to Lewis by a long shot.

Whoever is saying that Newington should attend Lewis is not looking at maps.

There are no Springfield kids at South County. OP is confused. It’s entirely Lorton, Mason Neck, and Fairfax Station.

Technically Newington Forest elementary and the neighborhood has a Springfield 22153 address, same as Hunt Valley. But South County is definitely our closest school. Even West Springfield is a bit of a hike from here but is still closer than Lewis.

Hunt Valley is 22152

The southern part of HV near Sydenstricker Methodist and off Gambrill is 22153. Actually so is Sangster and the neighborhoods near it by the Giant, now that I think about it. Are you going to send Sangster to Lewis because they have a Springfield address? Lol.

I can see physically see Hunt Valley from my house and we're 22153.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The process should have been paused once Western was purchased to set the boundaries there and then focused on the over crowded schools in the other areas of the County.

Split feeders suck, we are at one. DS and his friends have kids at their MS that they like but they don’t bother inviting them to hang out because they know they won’t see them in a few years. Maybe ending split feeders where less then 20% of the school moves together makes sense or limiting schools to feeding only 2 HSs makes sense but I get the feeling that most parents were not thrilled with that either because they like their MS.

I have no idea what to do with attendance islands. It seems like families are fine with them and if the schools they attend are not over crowded then should they be moved?

I kindly disagree. I value my split feeder, as do many, many other parents. Split feeders will also be necessary given the geography of Fairfax. Trying to focus on split feeders and attendance islands was a huge fail.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The process should have been paused once Western was purchased to set the boundaries there and then focused on the over crowded schools in the other areas of the County.

Split feeders suck, we are at one. DS and his friends have kids at their MS that they like but they don’t bother inviting them to hang out because they know they won’t see them in a few years. Maybe ending split feeders where less then 20% of the school moves together makes sense or limiting schools to feeding only 2 HSs makes sense but I get the feeling that most parents were not thrilled with that either because they like their MS.

I have no idea what to do with attendance islands. It seems like families are fine with them and if the schools they attend are not over crowded then should they be moved?

I kindly disagree. I value my split feeder, as do many, many other parents. Split feeders will also be necessary given the geography of Fairfax. Trying to focus on split feeders and attendance islands was a huge fail.

To not engage with schools impacted by split feeders earlier in the process was a huge fail. The first two phases of the process were a total free for all to collect feedback (which they hardly used and instead asked BRAC to tell them what to do for scenario 4) if they had done targeted pyramid meetings like they did for the last round of feedback from the start they would have had a better understanding of where split feeders and islands should have been addressed.