Board of Veterans Appeals (Attorney Advisor)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Though they decreased quota by .25 per week, 3 signed cases a week is still tough.

Don't forget that you can't even begin drafting a decision until you've read the whole file first. It's not unusual for files to be 1000+ pages, especially as you get more experienced. Fun.

That’s right. Don’t forget to add that BVA attorneys must review the entire 1000+ page file AND draft a decision within 10 hours. Rinse and repeat three times per week.

And let’s not forget that sometimes you’ll find some admin stuff in some random document (after spending hours on case review) just to find out that you need to send to admin and can’t proceed to draft your decision

But, you still have to get three drafts signed each week regardless of any administrative or technical difficulties.

Don't forget to fill out the All Employee Survey. I'm sure the responses will be taken seriously and meaningful change will happen. lol.

Well, quota is a non negotiable matter…lol.

New poster here. What are you talking about? No one mentioned anything about the quota being negotiable or non-negotiable. While you are correct in that management does not have to negotiate performance standards, management can in fact unilaterally lower the quota in response to concerns raised in the All Employee Survey. Furthermore, there is nothing stopping management from lowering the quota in response to concerns raised by the union. Just because management doesn't have to bargain over performance standard, doesn't mean that management can't voluntarily adjust performance standards in response to concerns.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Though they decreased quota by .25 per week, 3 signed cases a week is still tough.

Don't forget that you can't even begin drafting a decision until you've read the whole file first. It's not unusual for files to be 1000+ pages, especially as you get more experienced. Fun.

That’s right. Don’t forget to add that BVA attorneys must review the entire 1000+ page file AND draft a decision within 10 hours. Rinse and repeat three times per week.

And let’s not forget that sometimes you’ll find some admin stuff in some random document (after spending hours on case review) just to find out that you need to send to admin and can’t proceed to draft your decision

But, you still have to get three drafts signed each week regardless of any administrative or technical difficulties.

Don't forget to fill out the All Employee Survey. I'm sure the responses will be taken seriously and meaningful change will happen. lol.

Well, quota is a non negotiable matter…lol.

The all employee survey is not something to union does, if that was what you were implying by talking about negotiations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:question: how does time off/leave affect your quotas at these "production based" jobs? For example, If I take a sick day or an afternoon off, do I still have to meet the quota, say three signed decisions that day, or does it reduce my monthly quota by 5%, or how does that work? Or if I take three days off or a week off over summer, does that reduce my quota those days or do you have to churn it out in advance? I'm just wondering how you could possibly have a life or take vacations if you're constantly trying to meet a quota, if it's much like a yearly billable requirement

I've never worked there but have been told that people have to use leave to not miss their quota, but still work those days, just to make quota. So you use leave to not be fired, but aren't actually taking leave.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a trademark attorney at the USPTO. For the poster who wrote an article on trademark law, this could have actually worked against you. The USPTO does not care about experience, and generally hires 3L's with no trademark experience. You have to tailor your cover letter towards the production element of the job. They want to know that you work quickly, can take criticism well (your work is reviewed by a mentor for two years), and that you are okay with a repetitive job.

Yes, morale is very low here. It's an exhausting job. Not only is the production egregious, but everything you do is reviewed, and a small or large issue counts as an "error" against you - get enough errors and you will not be satisfactory. You are only as good as your last quarter at the PTO, which leads to massive burnout. People are fired there. Even people with extenuating family circumstances.

Unlike the BVA, I would still recommend it to people who have no other options. There is no upward mobility at the PTO and most are looking for jobs on the side.

One PP mentioned how the PTO will fare now that more offices are adopting telework flexibility. This is a great point. The PTO could get away with the production because of the perk of telework. However, this is no longer unique to the PTO. To be able to spend a day not worrying about meeting a quota sounds like a dream to me!

Unlike the BVA, I wouldn't call the PTO toxic or vengeful. it's just not a place that most people will want to stay long term.

At the PTO, if you can’t meet your quota during your work hours, are you allowed to make up your cases in your personal time? If so, do people get penalized for using personal time to meet production?

The rule at BVA is that attorneys can't work more than 40 hours a week. But, in practice, there's an unofficial don't ask don't tell policy in effect when in comes to work hours. Most attorneys at BVA work around 50 hours a week, but those with difficult judges tend to work in excess of 60 hours a week. You can work as many hours you want/need to, so long as you don't expressly tell your manager that you are working unpaid overtime.

Can the extra work be done at home if you are new and aren't allowed to telecommute?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:question: how does time off/leave affect your quotas at these "production based" jobs? For example, If I take a sick day or an afternoon off, do I still have to meet the quota, say three signed decisions that day, or does it reduce my monthly quota by 5%, or how does that work? Or if I take three days off or a week off over summer, does that reduce my quota those days or do you have to churn it out in advance? I'm just wondering how you could possibly have a life or take vacations if you're constantly trying to meet a quota, if it's much like a yearly billable requirement

I've never worked there but have been told that people have to use leave to not miss their quota, but still work those days, just to make quota. So you use leave to not be fired, but aren't actually taking leave.

I can confirm that rumor. Many BVA attorneys work while on annual leave in order to meet the quota. However, that strategy is not a magic solution and will only work if you're close to meeting the quota.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:question: how does time off/leave affect your quotas at these "production based" jobs? For example, If I take a sick day or an afternoon off, do I still have to meet the quota, say three signed decisions that day, or does it reduce my monthly quota by 5%, or how does that work? Or if I take three days off or a week off over summer, does that reduce my quota those days or do you have to churn it out in advance? I'm just wondering how you could possibly have a life or take vacations if you're constantly trying to meet a quota, if it's much like a yearly billable requirement

I've never worked there but have been told that people have to use leave to not miss their quota, but still work those days, just to make quota. So you use leave to not be fired, but aren't actually taking leave.

I can confirm that rumor. Many BVA attorneys work while on annual leave in order to meet the quota. However, that strategy is not a magic solution and will only work if you're close to meeting the quota.

Can confirm. Management knows this yet doesn't care.

[Anonymous]

I just received an offer from the BVA to work as a Program Specialist which works with the Attorneys. Is life at the BVA awful for the Program Specialist also? It is a Virtual Position which sound like a perk.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I just received an offer from the BVA to work as a Program Specialist which works with the Attorneys. Is life at the BVA awful for the Program Specialist also? It is a Virtual Position which sound like a perk.

What does a program specialist do? Do they have a quota?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just received an offer from the BVA to work as a Program Specialist which works with the Attorneys. Is life at the BVA awful for the Program Specialist also? It is a Virtual Position which sound like a perk.

What does a program specialist do? Do they have a quota?

They specialize in a program.

[Anonymous]

So helpful!

[Anonymous]

I’m an atty there...and I think program specialist is someone who deals with admin issues (eg. hearing team etc).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m an atty there...and I think program specialist is someone who deals with admin issues (eg. hearing team etc).

Then I doubt their life is nearly as bad as the life of an attorney. They probably have some sort of work quota they need to fulfill, but they cannot possibly be subject to the same harassment, intimidation, and abuse that the attorneys are subjected to on a daily basis.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m an atty there...and I think program specialist is someone who deals with admin issues (eg. hearing team etc).

Then I doubt their life is nearly as bad as the life of an attorney. They probably have some sort of work quota they need to fulfill, but they cannot possibly be subject to the same harassment, intimidation, and abuse that the attorneys are subjected to on a daily basis.

This thread is so sad. I read a WSJ article claiming Miami law grads graduate with about $300k in debt but only make maybe $65k. Is that how much the VA pays? I would say I hope they join BVA and get PSLF but you all make it sound like it takes heroics to make it more than a few years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m an atty there...and I think program specialist is someone who deals with admin issues (eg. hearing team etc).

Then I doubt their life is nearly as bad as the life of an attorney. They probably have some sort of work quota they need to fulfill, but they cannot possibly be subject to the same harassment, intimidation, and abuse that the attorneys are subjected to on a daily basis.

Management regularly harasses and abuses attorneys to force them to write more decisions, as Congress only cares about numbers. Support staff members do not face the same level of abuse because Congress generally doesn’t care about the work that they perform, unless it affects the ability of attorneys to draft decisions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m an atty there...and I think program specialist is someone who deals with admin issues (eg. hearing team etc).

Then I doubt their life is nearly as bad as the life of an attorney. They probably have some sort of work quota they need to fulfill, but they cannot possibly be subject to the same harassment, intimidation, and abuse that the attorneys are subjected to on a daily basis.

This thread is so sad. I read a WSJ article claiming Miami law grads graduate with about $300k in debt but only make maybe $65k. Is that how much the VA pays? I would say I hope they join BVA and get PSLF but you all make it sound like it takes heroics to make it more than a few years.

Working at BVA is a terrible experience, but don’t just take my word. Read the survey - the section on morale starts on p. 111.

https://documentcloud.adobe.com/link/track/?uri=urn%3Aaaid%3Ascds%3AUS%3A4dc55b1b-80ed-4b2c-9e0a-155be961d998&pageNum=1#pageNum=2