Accommodation Nation

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I work as an attorney and it’s shocking (and getting worse every year) how many new employees come in that don’t seem to understand that when I say I need something by noon on Thursday, that isn’t a guideline or a suggestion or a wish. I’m sure I’m not very popular with the young ones. They either figure it out after the first couple assignments or they find other employment.

I’m an attorney too and I’m seeing younger employees come in with that mindset too. Constant requests for time off, constant sick days, not planning ahead, not taking initiative, disregarding instructions. I don’t know if it’s the pandemic, the economy, accommodations, helicopter parenting, or some combination of everything.

More attorneys sharing parenting responsibilities across gender lines, worse childcare options, and fewer people thinking their employers will love them back for making their entire life work.

In the law firm world, the client does not care about those things. Especially not at the rates we charge. If that’s not for you, totally understand. But if you want big law pay, you’ll have to get up to speed or be pushed out. When we tell a client we will get them something by a deadline, we do it barring truly extenuating circumstances. And if you are a litigator, the deadlines are truly firm and imposed by the court/the statute.

I say this as an attorney (one of maybe the majority of this board), but maybe you should staff cases/deals better? Your employees are human beings with human needs. And they have legal entitlement to things like paid sick leave, parental leave, FMLA, etc. You need to structure your staffing to be able to accommodate these inevitabilities, especially when so many firms makes (bullshit) promises about supporting working parents and valuing employee health and wellbeing.

Being a big law attorney is a demanding job. It’s not the kind of job for someone who needs a soft workplace. If we have a filing deadline, we have to get it done whether your kid is sick or not. And no we don’t just keep extra staff on hand just in case. If you let a senior attorney down enough times they will stop bringing work to you. Again, it’s not for everyone.

Exactly. Nobody who has ever had to have extra time to accomplish tasks is cut out for big law. Acknowledge the disability and that it isn't compatible with all jobs. Or just teach the kids how to handle their time and cut out the disability completely.

You know some of the most gifted litigators in the world have dyslexia and learning disabilities, right? Take a look at David Boies and Elizabeth Cabraser.

They don’t get extra time from the courts based on their dyslexia….

They've both admitted to being slower readers and writers. That doesn't mean they can't make court deadlines, which are virtually always set with plenty of lead time, and at a minimum a day of lead time.

Nothing like timed tests in school...

So you're for getting rid of all timed tests, correct? Just across the board because they are so useless.

I'm not a fan of them, personally. I never said they need to be gotten rid of. I'm saying people who need extended time can be really successful in high-stress careers.

No. We can't have two sets of rules. One that puts one group at a distinct advantage (all the time they need!) and another group who may also benefit for more time because it's not about how fast you can't do it but don't get the time. Level the playing field. If working in a timely manner makes no difference in careers then what is the point?

There are a lot of different solutions, and you seem to be really lacking in creativity. No one said two sets of rules. We give exams with an end time that have plenty of buffer built in. A 24-hour take home exam with word limits is a good example.

You keep distorting my words to make it sound like I've made a completely unreasonable proposition. Finishing a test in 45 minutes is not like meeting a deadline a week away. It's also not turning around work product by EOD. Nobody is saying (or certainly I am not saying) to abolish all deadlines.

Unless you’re trying to test how well students can use AI, unproctored assignments are not very useful these days. Thera a reason that many profs are returning to closed book exams.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Maybe they should cap the grades for those with non-physical accommodations so they can’t achieve an A. An A should be only for those who can do the work correctly under the designated conditions. Then at least if people cheat they’ll only get a B and won’t affect the curve for the entire class.

Curves are pretty rare in colleges these days?

[Anonymous]

One big thing behind this push for accommodations by people whose kids don’t truly need them is because it’s no longer ok to be average or ordinary. Everyone wants their kid to be at the top. The truth is, 99% of us are average or ordinary. Our kids are average and ordinary. When did it stop being ok to be average?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Maybe they should cap the grades for those with non-physical accommodations so they can’t achieve an A. An A should be only for those who can do the work correctly under the designated conditions. Then at least if people cheat they’ll only get a B and won’t affect the curve for the entire class.

Are you kidding me? My kid has a typing accommodation for dysgraphia. Is that capped at a B? She has to type because her handwriting is completely illegible, but dysgraphia is a disability that goes beyond the physical act of handwriting. It involves written expression. So which part is capped at a B? How is that at all fair to kids with learning disabilities. It's just another barrier to achievement when they are intelligent and able to do the work with some accommodations. So you basically need to put learning disabled kids down to assure your special snowflake gets an A?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:One big thing behind this push for accommodations by people whose kids don’t truly need them is because it’s no longer ok to be average or ordinary. Everyone wants their kid to be at the top. The truth is, 99% of us are average or ordinary. Our kids are average and ordinary. When did it stop being ok to be average?

Yes, I think this is true.

I think it's because the middle class in disappearing. People are afraid of their kids "just" having regular jobs or going to regular schools. They worry that having an average kid who becomes a school teacher or a nurse or winds up in a lower level job in some corporate company will not be enough. The costs of housing, healthcare, childcare, and college mean that people with these sorts of jobs are not really guaranteed much in life -- they may never own a home, it may be hard to have kids, and if they have kids they may have little hope of being able to send them to college. So there is fear of a downward spiral. If there are really only to major economic classes, an upper class and a underclass, then you have to hope your kid is in the upper class, right?

But we still maintain this belief in some kind of American meritocracy so people think if they can just get their kids into the right schools and the right industries, their kids can "earn" their way into that upper class.

Except... can they?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:One big thing behind this push for accommodations by people whose kids don’t truly need them is because it’s no longer ok to be average or ordinary. Everyone wants their kid to be at the top. The truth is, 99% of us are average or ordinary. Our kids are average and ordinary. When did it stop being ok to be average?

There is no accepted test by a licensed professional that makes an average kid exceptional. Licensed professionals are not making up diagnoses so your kid can cheat.

These tests allow kids to reach their full potential, whatever that is. Because it allows them to learn in the same way that their brains process information.

The problem is that our health care system sucks. And often the only way to get the help your kid needs is to pay a lot of money out of pocket.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One big thing behind this push for accommodations by people whose kids don’t truly need them is because it’s no longer ok to be average or ordinary. Everyone wants their kid to be at the top. The truth is, 99% of us are average or ordinary. Our kids are average and ordinary. When did it stop being ok to be average?

There is no accepted test by a licensed professional that makes an average kid exceptional. Licensed professionals are not making up diagnoses so your kid can cheat.

These tests allow kids to reach their full potential, whatever that is. Because it allows them to learn in the same way that their brains process information.

The problem is that our health care system sucks. And often the only way to get the help your kid needs is to pay a lot of money out of pocket.

So is there any kid who doesn't have anxiety when taking tests and wouldn't benefit from no time constraint and the ability to check their work?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe they should cap the grades for those with non-physical accommodations so they can’t achieve an A. An A should be only for those who can do the work correctly under the designated conditions. Then at least if people cheat they’ll only get a B and won’t affect the curve for the entire class.

Are you kidding me? My kid has a typing accommodation for dysgraphia. Is that capped at a B? She has to type because her handwriting is completely illegible, but dysgraphia is a disability that goes beyond the physical act of handwriting. It involves written expression. So which part is capped at a B? How is that at all fair to kids with learning disabilities. It's just another barrier to achievement when they are intelligent and able to do the work with some accommodations. So you basically need to put learning disabled kids down to assure your special snowflake gets an A?

Don't worry, this person isn't serious. They're just trolling.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I work as an attorney and it’s shocking (and getting worse every year) how many new employees come in that don’t seem to understand that when I say I need something by noon on Thursday, that isn’t a guideline or a suggestion or a wish. I’m sure I’m not very popular with the young ones. They either figure it out after the first couple assignments or they find other employment.

I’m an attorney too and I’m seeing younger employees come in with that mindset too. Constant requests for time off, constant sick days, not planning ahead, not taking initiative, disregarding instructions. I don’t know if it’s the pandemic, the economy, accommodations, helicopter parenting, or some combination of everything.

More attorneys sharing parenting responsibilities across gender lines, worse childcare options, and fewer people thinking their employers will love them back for making their entire life work.

In the law firm world, the client does not care about those things. Especially not at the rates we charge. If that’s not for you, totally understand. But if you want big law pay, you’ll have to get up to speed or be pushed out. When we tell a client we will get them something by a deadline, we do it barring truly extenuating circumstances. And if you are a litigator, the deadlines are truly firm and imposed by the court/the statute.

I say this as an attorney (one of maybe the majority of this board), but maybe you should staff cases/deals better? Your employees are human beings with human needs. And they have legal entitlement to things like paid sick leave, parental leave, FMLA, etc. You need to structure your staffing to be able to accommodate these inevitabilities, especially when so many firms makes (bullshit) promises about supporting working parents and valuing employee health and wellbeing.

Being a big law attorney is a demanding job. It’s not the kind of job for someone who needs a soft workplace. If we have a filing deadline, we have to get it done whether your kid is sick or not. And no we don’t just keep extra staff on hand just in case. If you let a senior attorney down enough times they will stop bringing work to you. Again, it’s not for everyone.

Exactly. Nobody who has ever had to have extra time to accomplish tasks is cut out for big law. Acknowledge the disability and that it isn't compatible with all jobs. Or just teach the kids how to handle their time and cut out the disability completely.

Extended time big law senior associate checking in! We do fine!

And I’m sure you accept that sometimes you have to work nights and weekends and that’s just how it goes.

I sure do! Working late and longer than most people is how I'm successful in biglaw. That has nothing to do with whether I'm unable to do my job because I got extended time on exams in school.

I completely agree and would have no trouble with someone like this at our firm who met deadlines. We were objecting to a poster who said they “never” in their entire career had to meet timed deadlines.

I don't think they said they never had to meet timed deadlines. I think they said they didn't have deadlines that were short that it approximated a timed test. Virtually all substantive assignments, in my experience, have multi-day lead time.

There are very, very few areas of the law where you can just hole up and write a brief for days with no interaction. Eventually there are questions and matters you need to be able to handle quickly. Even appellate lawyers need to think quickly at oral argument (which is basically a test).

Holing up and writing a brief for multiple days isn’t remotely what I described. Oral arguments aren’t like timed exams, but also most lawyers suck at them, including big law partners. And people don’t just need extended time for slow processing speed. Dyslexics like David Boies and Elizabeth Cabraser excel at oral argument, which doesn’t involve reading for them, but are slow readers and writers.

For a lawyer, you're pretty weak at making convincing arguments. You've given no reason for timed tests and have argued why they don't relate to the real world, but also can't articulate why we still need them, just that we shouldn't do away with them. Why?

I'm fine doing away with speeded tests. I've said that earlier. I'm not taking a position on whether timed tests should be done away with because that's not the purpose of this discussion. This discussion is about whether students who are receiving accommodations on timed exams as they currently exist can be successful in stressful, elite work environments.

There is no way that you were ever hired by Big Law with these writing skills. Also, you are hilarious if you think BigLaw deadlines have a several day lead in. I can't tell you how many last minute all nighters I pulled. I generally didn't even know what I had to do that day until around 5pm as the deadlines came late and hard. You are not qualified to give advice.

If you're pulling an all nighter to meet a deadline, it's not like a timed exam..................

And don't worry, I was on law review (made it via blind reviewed writing competition only), published my note reviewed blind (one of 10ish at my T14), got honors in legal writing (top 3 in the class), did a federal clerkship, have worked at two biglaw firms, and am a senior associate.

If I'm told at 5pm that I need to write a 10 page brief by morning, it very much is like a timed exam. This happened many times. Litigation. If we found something, we weren't waiting to file. We would jump. Higher than we thought possible. Several times, I would actually have to be in NYC by morning also in order to have my own eyes on the final product being filed. This is why clients paid so much.

Yes, this is a realistic situation. But you have *checks notes* 16 hours to write that brief. That’s a stressful assignment, absolutely. But that’s not the 45 min, 90 min, or 4 hour exam time limit. It’s more akin to a 24 hour take home, where you don’t get extended time as an accommodation. This is my point.

DP but how are you actually this dumb? It’s mind-boggling, truly.

A 45 minute timed exam has about 45 minutes worth of work involved. Her 10 page brief is undoubtedly MORE than 45 minutes worth of work. Giving her 45 minutes to do it would indeed be stupid. Giving student 45 minutes to answer 45 minutes worth of multiple choice questions is a completely sane and reasonable thing to do.

Are you just a troll?

Do you understand that people who get 50% extended time on exams typically don't get those on much longer 24-hour take homes where they're expected to produce much more content? They also don't get extended time on projects and papers? They only get extended time on these time-compressed exams, like a 45 minute test.

Having 16 hours to write a ten-page brief is a huge assignment. But it's not nearly as time-pressured as, say, answering six short-answer questions in 4 hours without breaks. Or answering 45 multiple choice questions in an hour. The work is incredibly different.

I don't think you understand how disabilities work. I don't think you understand how accommodations work.

I don’t think you even understand your own argument.

Your real disability is that you are too literal. There is zero nuance in your thinking, which hinders your comprehension. This is why you keep making the same illogical point (which I am sure makes sense in your rigid framework) and either refuse to accept or are incapable of accepting input, suggestion, or correction.

I don’t know what the solution would be for someone like you, but clearly more time isn’t helping.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I work as an attorney and it’s shocking (and getting worse every year) how many new employees come in that don’t seem to understand that when I say I need something by noon on Thursday, that isn’t a guideline or a suggestion or a wish. I’m sure I’m not very popular with the young ones. They either figure it out after the first couple assignments or they find other employment.

I’m an attorney too and I’m seeing younger employees come in with that mindset too. Constant requests for time off, constant sick days, not planning ahead, not taking initiative, disregarding instructions. I don’t know if it’s the pandemic, the economy, accommodations, helicopter parenting, or some combination of everything.

More attorneys sharing parenting responsibilities across gender lines, worse childcare options, and fewer people thinking their employers will love them back for making their entire life work.

In the law firm world, the client does not care about those things. Especially not at the rates we charge. If that’s not for you, totally understand. But if you want big law pay, you’ll have to get up to speed or be pushed out. When we tell a client we will get them something by a deadline, we do it barring truly extenuating circumstances. And if you are a litigator, the deadlines are truly firm and imposed by the court/the statute.

I say this as an attorney (one of maybe the majority of this board), but maybe you should staff cases/deals better? Your employees are human beings with human needs. And they have legal entitlement to things like paid sick leave, parental leave, FMLA, etc. You need to structure your staffing to be able to accommodate these inevitabilities, especially when so many firms makes (bullshit) promises about supporting working parents and valuing employee health and wellbeing.

Being a big law attorney is a demanding job. It’s not the kind of job for someone who needs a soft workplace. If we have a filing deadline, we have to get it done whether your kid is sick or not. And no we don’t just keep extra staff on hand just in case. If you let a senior attorney down enough times they will stop bringing work to you. Again, it’s not for everyone.

Exactly. Nobody who has ever had to have extra time to accomplish tasks is cut out for big law. Acknowledge the disability and that it isn't compatible with all jobs. Or just teach the kids how to handle their time and cut out the disability completely.

Extended time big law senior associate checking in! We do fine!

And I’m sure you accept that sometimes you have to work nights and weekends and that’s just how it goes.

I sure do! Working late and longer than most people is how I'm successful in biglaw. That has nothing to do with whether I'm unable to do my job because I got extended time on exams in school.

I completely agree and would have no trouble with someone like this at our firm who met deadlines. We were objecting to a poster who said they “never” in their entire career had to meet timed deadlines.

I don't think they said they never had to meet timed deadlines. I think they said they didn't have deadlines that were short that it approximated a timed test. Virtually all substantive assignments, in my experience, have multi-day lead time.

There are very, very few areas of the law where you can just hole up and write a brief for days with no interaction. Eventually there are questions and matters you need to be able to handle quickly. Even appellate lawyers need to think quickly at oral argument (which is basically a test).

Holing up and writing a brief for multiple days isn’t remotely what I described. Oral arguments aren’t like timed exams, but also most lawyers suck at them, including big law partners. And people don’t just need extended time for slow processing speed. Dyslexics like David Boies and Elizabeth Cabraser excel at oral argument, which doesn’t involve reading for them, but are slow readers and writers.

For a lawyer, you're pretty weak at making convincing arguments. You've given no reason for timed tests and have argued why they don't relate to the real world, but also can't articulate why we still need them, just that we shouldn't do away with them. Why?

I'm fine doing away with speeded tests. I've said that earlier. I'm not taking a position on whether timed tests should be done away with because that's not the purpose of this discussion. This discussion is about whether students who are receiving accommodations on timed exams as they currently exist can be successful in stressful, elite work environments.

There is no way that you were ever hired by Big Law with these writing skills. Also, you are hilarious if you think BigLaw deadlines have a several day lead in. I can't tell you how many last minute all nighters I pulled. I generally didn't even know what I had to do that day until around 5pm as the deadlines came late and hard. You are not qualified to give advice.

If you're pulling an all nighter to meet a deadline, it's not like a timed exam..................

And don't worry, I was on law review (made it via blind reviewed writing competition only), published my note reviewed blind (one of 10ish at my T14), got honors in legal writing (top 3 in the class), did a federal clerkship, have worked at two biglaw firms, and am a senior associate.

If I'm told at 5pm that I need to write a 10 page brief by morning, it very much is like a timed exam. This happened many times. Litigation. If we found something, we weren't waiting to file. We would jump. Higher than we thought possible. Several times, I would actually have to be in NYC by morning also in order to have my own eyes on the final product being filed. This is why clients paid so much.

Yes, this is a realistic situation. But you have *checks notes* 16 hours to write that brief. That’s a stressful assignment, absolutely. But that’s not the 45 min, 90 min, or 4 hour exam time limit. It’s more akin to a 24 hour take home, where you don’t get extended time as an accommodation. This is my point.

DP but how are you actually this dumb? It’s mind-boggling, truly.

A 45 minute timed exam has about 45 minutes worth of work involved. Her 10 page brief is undoubtedly MORE than 45 minutes worth of work. Giving her 45 minutes to do it would indeed be stupid. Giving student 45 minutes to answer 45 minutes worth of multiple choice questions is a completely sane and reasonable thing to do.

Are you just a troll?

Do you understand that people who get 50% extended time on exams typically don't get those on much longer 24-hour take homes where they're expected to produce much more content? They also don't get extended time on projects and papers? They only get extended time on these time-compressed exams, like a 45 minute test.

Having 16 hours to write a ten-page brief is a huge assignment. But it's not nearly as time-pressured as, say, answering six short-answer questions in 4 hours without breaks. Or answering 45 multiple choice questions in an hour. The work is incredibly different.

I don't think you understand how disabilities work. I don't think you understand how accommodations work.

I don’t think you even understand your own argument.

Your real disability is that you are too literal. There is zero nuance in your thinking, which hinders your comprehension. This is why you keep making the same illogical point (which I am sure makes sense in your rigid framework) and either refuse to accept or are incapable of accepting input, suggestion, or correction.

I don’t know what the solution would be for someone like you, but clearly more time isn’t helping.

And you're the epitome of flexible thinking capable of integrating feedback from other people's life experiences /s

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One big thing behind this push for accommodations by people whose kids don’t truly need them is because it’s no longer ok to be average or ordinary. Everyone wants their kid to be at the top. The truth is, 99% of us are average or ordinary. Our kids are average and ordinary. When did it stop being ok to be average?

There is no accepted test by a licensed professional that makes an average kid exceptional. Licensed professionals are not making up diagnoses so your kid can cheat.

These tests allow kids to reach their full potential, whatever that is. Because it allows them to learn in the same way that their brains process information.

The problem is that our health care system sucks. And often the only way to get the help your kid needs is to pay a lot of money out of pocket.

So is there any kid who doesn't have anxiety when taking tests and wouldn't benefit from no time constraint and the ability to check their work?

Are people getting the SINGLE diagnosis of test anxiety or do they also have a diagnosed anxiety disorder, ADHD, autism, etc? Because that sounds like fake internet lore.

[Anonymous]

Where are these doctors who hand out ADHD diagnoses to everyone who makes a 15 min appointment? As an adult, I went to three different professionals to be evaluated for ADHD and was told each time: "Nope, you just have anxiety."

My kid got diagnosed with ADHD, but it required multiple teacher and parent evaluations, a self-assessment, and in-person testing with a malingering evaluation as well.

[Anonymous]

Ah dysgraphia. Wish I had heard of that back in the day. I’m left handed and no one showed me how to write well so I curl my hand around (script looks great but my hand looks ridiculous). Upshot is on blue book tests about 15 minutes in I’d start cramping and it’d be impossible to write for a few minutes. Then every ten minutes, then every minute or two until it was just pins and needles if the test was 90 minutes long.

Wouldn’t it have been nice to get the time back when my damn hand didn’t work on the exam? (Or alternatively I got better teachers when I was 5-8 years old.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Where are these doctors who hand out ADHD diagnoses to everyone who makes a 15 min appointment? As an adult, I went to three different professionals to be evaluated for ADHD and was told each time: "Nope, you just have anxiety."

My kid got diagnosed with ADHD, but it required multiple teacher and parent evaluations, a self-assessment, and in-person testing with a malingering evaluation as well.

Exactly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ah dysgraphia. Wish I had heard of that back in the day. I’m left handed and no one showed me how to write well so I curl my hand around (script looks great but my hand looks ridiculous). Upshot is on blue book tests about 15 minutes in I’d start cramping and it’d be impossible to write for a few minutes. Then every ten minutes, then every minute or two until it was just pins and needles if the test was 90 minutes long.

Wouldn’t it have been nice to get the time back when my damn hand didn’t work on the exam? (Or alternatively I got better teachers when I was 5-8 years old.)

That’s not dysgraphia. When my kid was diagnosed with it and the evaluator showed me how he approached the exercises it was eye opening. It’s more than just poor writing form.