Court: TJ's New Admission Policy Does Not Discriminate

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When a group of people is good enough to fill 95% of a team, 70% does feel like discrimination.

Another example, the NBA, Athletics teams, NFL, NHL...Well, Asians are not represented per their population % there and NO ONE seems to be saying "Let's fix this"

Why should someone else be expected to represent Asian American interests? If they want it so badly, Asian Americans need to develop their own diversity, equity & inclusion industry, financially and politically, to assert their census status as a minority populace, and defend merit based access to advanced education.

Not sure about any of that but glad that FCPS has raised the merit standards for TJ by eliminating the rampant cheating that had tainted admissions in previous years.

Hmm.... Do you have any proof/reference? Looking at the performance for AMC 10 etc. it seems class of 2025 and beyond are lagging behind other local schools. PSAT/NMSQT this year will be another benchmark for the class of 2025. Science Olympiad and other Science/Math/Academic competitions will still have some seniors. Drama and other non-stem activities including sports; maybe is getting better

Both of you are wrong.

While I disagree with the assertion that FCPS has lowered the merit standards for TJ admissions, they certainly have not raised them either. What they've done is eliminated metrics that were occluding the selection process.

What students were doing to prepare for the TJ admissions exam wasn't "cheating" in any sense of the word. What they were doing is leveraging their parents' resources to attend prep programs that were cheating. That's not on the students or families, it's on the prep programs and their prior students who fed them questions from a secured exam. You can't blame the kids for this.

But at the same time, all PP is doing is insisting on continuing to measure the merit of students by standardized exams and academic competitions. This is a valueless statement. OF COURSE the new classes at TJ are going to have lower scores on standardized exams and probably not participate as heavily in competitions such as SciOly. Because the TJ admissions process is no longer overselecting for those metrics. When all you care about in an admissions process is metric X and Y, you shouldn't be surprised when your entire class excels at metric X and Y. It would be like a soccer team selecting their players entirely on goalkeeping skills or a basketball team on free throw shooting. Yes, those skills are tangentially relevant and could be a little bit predictive, but you're missing out on tons of other dimensions.

The key moving forward is for FCPS to do a better job of finding those other dimensions. But stopping the process of eliminating kids who aren't phenomenal test takers from the process at step one is a good...first step.

One could just as easily argue that a school that is supposed to nurture STEM students that bases admissions heavily on geography to placate politicians with no STEM backgrounds themselves is “overselecting” for geography.

By definition a process is not "overselecting" for anything if distributions of allocated spots are equal. That's the opposite of overselecting for geography.

What was happening previously is that an increasing number of students were coming from a decreasing geographical area. That WOULD be an example of overselecting for geography, even though that wasn't the reason they were getting in.

Arguing in bad faith doesn't make anyone look good.

Nope. Emphasizing geography without an adequate basis to conclude it would correlate with selecting the best qualified STEM candidates is overweighting. We’ll see the measurable declines in a few years as more data emerges but in the interim take your sophistry elsewhere.

Let's back up for a moment. Where is it written that FCPS is required to design a process to select "the best qualified STEM candidates"? These are 13 year olds we're talking about.

DP. I'll save everyone some time - it's not written anywhere at all. We'll see whether TJ's standing both nationally and within Northern Virginia rises or falls over the next few years, but there's absolutely nothing mandating that FCPS attempt to find "the best of the best" along any metric in any document governing TJ.

I guess they found the best prepped with the old system, but it seems like they're no selecting the most qualified.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When a group of people is good enough to fill 95% of a team, 70% does feel like discrimination.

Another example, the NBA, Athletics teams, NFL, NHL...Well, Asians are not represented per their population % there and NO ONE seems to be saying "Let's fix this"

Why should someone else be expected to represent Asian American interests? If they want it so badly, Asian Americans need to develop their own diversity, equity & inclusion industry, financially and politically, to assert their census status as a minority populace, and defend merit based access to advanced education.

Not sure about any of that but glad that FCPS has raised the merit standards for TJ by eliminating the rampant cheating that had tainted admissions in previous years.

Hmm.... Do you have any proof/reference? Looking at the performance for AMC 10 etc. it seems class of 2025 and beyond are lagging behind other local schools. PSAT/NMSQT this year will be another benchmark for the class of 2025. Science Olympiad and other Science/Math/Academic competitions will still have some seniors. Drama and other non-stem activities including sports; maybe is getting better

Both of you are wrong.

While I disagree with the assertion that FCPS has lowered the merit standards for TJ admissions, they certainly have not raised them either. What they've done is eliminated metrics that were occluding the selection process.

What students were doing to prepare for the TJ admissions exam wasn't "cheating" in any sense of the word. What they were doing is leveraging their parents' resources to attend prep programs that were cheating. That's not on the students or families, it's on the prep programs and their prior students who fed them questions from a secured exam. You can't blame the kids for this.

But at the same time, all PP is doing is insisting on continuing to measure the merit of students by standardized exams and academic competitions. This is a valueless statement. OF COURSE the new classes at TJ are going to have lower scores on standardized exams and probably not participate as heavily in competitions such as SciOly. Because the TJ admissions process is no longer overselecting for those metrics. When all you care about in an admissions process is metric X and Y, you shouldn't be surprised when your entire class excels at metric X and Y. It would be like a soccer team selecting their players entirely on goalkeeping skills or a basketball team on free throw shooting. Yes, those skills are tangentially relevant and could be a little bit predictive, but you're missing out on tons of other dimensions.

The key moving forward is for FCPS to do a better job of finding those other dimensions. But stopping the process of eliminating kids who aren't phenomenal test takers from the process at step one is a good...first step.

The new process indeed is failing to identify more students for the "top" slots (e.g. are the JMO kids) compared to the old process. A teacher recommendation or a verified achievement list could help. "Froshmore" selection process (by TJ teachers); if it is able to identify the "Right" candidates can also be adopted to the "Freshman" round selection

The more likely result is they will eliminate the froshmore round of admissions or take the teachers out of that. It wouldn't look good to have a comparison group, students rejected in 8th grade who get in the next year under a different admissions process.

Yes, but all indications are the new process is working well at identifying the top students.

DP and strongly pro-reform. People need to stop parroting this talking point unless their intent is to parody the folks on the other side.

There are no indications that the new process is identifying the "top students" - even within their own schools. What absolutely is clear is that TJ is a much healthier environment than it was prior to the admissions changes. That much is inarguable if you have spent any significant time in that building over the past 15-20 years.

I personally would like to see teacher recommendations return to the process and perhaps a move from top 1.5% to top 1%, but the admissions changes were a monumental step in the right direction compared to what was happening before, where you had this enormous glut of students who were all trying to get to the same place on the same path when hundreds of other paths and destinations are available.

I am not so sure it is healthier. Less capable students are feeling like they don't belong at TJ when their classmates are much smarter than them.

Deep dark secret. This has happened FOREVER at TJ. The kids who were artificially advanced in math and prepped within an inch of their life to master the Quant-Q or whatever exam was put in front of them felt the EXACT same way when confronted with the kids who actually belonged at TJ.

Except they were expected to follow the exact same path. These new kids, who have not had the same opportunities during their elementary and middle school years, are able to experience TJ at a similar pace to what most of the students in the 90s and 00s did.

And the school is doing a phenomenal job of supporting them and encouraging them to cut their own path. Some will succeed and some will fail, as has always been the case.

Very true but many seem to be fixated on the old system because they could game it more easily.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When a group of people is good enough to fill 95% of a team, 70% does feel like discrimination.

Another example, the NBA, Athletics teams, NFL, NHL...Well, Asians are not represented per their population % there and NO ONE seems to be saying "Let's fix this"

Why should someone else be expected to represent Asian American interests? If they want it so badly, Asian Americans need to develop their own diversity, equity & inclusion industry, financially and politically, to assert their census status as a minority populace, and defend merit based access to advanced education.

Not sure about any of that but glad that FCPS has raised the merit standards for TJ by eliminating the rampant cheating that had tainted admissions in previous years.

Hmm.... Do you have any proof/reference? Looking at the performance for AMC 10 etc. it seems class of 2025 and beyond are lagging behind other local schools. PSAT/NMSQT this year will be another benchmark for the class of 2025. Science Olympiad and other Science/Math/Academic competitions will still have some seniors. Drama and other non-stem activities including sports; maybe is getting better

Both of you are wrong.

While I disagree with the assertion that FCPS has lowered the merit standards for TJ admissions, they certainly have not raised them either. What they've done is eliminated metrics that were occluding the selection process.

What students were doing to prepare for the TJ admissions exam wasn't "cheating" in any sense of the word. What they were doing is leveraging their parents' resources to attend prep programs that were cheating. That's not on the students or families, it's on the prep programs and their prior students who fed them questions from a secured exam. You can't blame the kids for this.

But at the same time, all PP is doing is insisting on continuing to measure the merit of students by standardized exams and academic competitions. This is a valueless statement. OF COURSE the new classes at TJ are going to have lower scores on standardized exams and probably not participate as heavily in competitions such as SciOly. Because the TJ admissions process is no longer overselecting for those metrics. When all you care about in an admissions process is metric X and Y, you shouldn't be surprised when your entire class excels at metric X and Y. It would be like a soccer team selecting their players entirely on goalkeeping skills or a basketball team on free throw shooting. Yes, those skills are tangentially relevant and could be a little bit predictive, but you're missing out on tons of other dimensions.

The key moving forward is for FCPS to do a better job of finding those other dimensions. But stopping the process of eliminating kids who aren't phenomenal test takers from the process at step one is a good...first step.

The new process indeed is failing to identify more students for the "top" slots (e.g. are the JMO kids) compared to the old process. A teacher recommendation or a verified achievement list could help. "Froshmore" selection process (by TJ teachers); if it is able to identify the "Right" candidates can also be adopted to the "Freshman" round selection

The more likely result is they will eliminate the froshmore round of admissions or take the teachers out of that. It wouldn't look good to have a comparison group, students rejected in 8th grade who get in the next year under a different admissions process.

Yes, but all indications are the new process is working well at identifying the top students.

And what are your indicators? Your "cookie" said so? You do not have any measurements. Look at the drop out rates and data for standardized competitions and accept the reality.

The dropout rates aren't significantly different than they were before COVID.

And again... yes, when you are overselecting for things like standardized exam scores and participation in STEM competitions, those metrics are going to go down when you stop doing that. The segment of the population who believes that those metrics are how you should evaluate kids is smaller than you think and shrinking by the day. So you can sit on your high horse and believe what you want, but you're falling behind the rest of us.

Did you check the class of 2025 (FCPS school profile - history). Started with 541 students (9 dropped out after committing). 15 froshmore's added and as of June there are 520 students. So 36 already dropped out not including the 9 who decided not to join. 5-10 more students will drop out and the junior year will start with ~510 students. Close to 9% drop. Don't think it is normal drop-out rate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When a group of people is good enough to fill 95% of a team, 70% does feel like discrimination.

Another example, the NBA, Athletics teams, NFL, NHL...Well, Asians are not represented per their population % there and NO ONE seems to be saying "Let's fix this"

Why should someone else be expected to represent Asian American interests? If they want it so badly, Asian Americans need to develop their own diversity, equity & inclusion industry, financially and politically, to assert their census status as a minority populace, and defend merit based access to advanced education.

Not sure about any of that but glad that FCPS has raised the merit standards for TJ by eliminating the rampant cheating that had tainted admissions in previous years.

Hmm.... Do you have any proof/reference? Looking at the performance for AMC 10 etc. it seems class of 2025 and beyond are lagging behind other local schools. PSAT/NMSQT this year will be another benchmark for the class of 2025. Science Olympiad and other Science/Math/Academic competitions will still have some seniors. Drama and other non-stem activities including sports; maybe is getting better

Both of you are wrong.

While I disagree with the assertion that FCPS has lowered the merit standards for TJ admissions, they certainly have not raised them either. What they've done is eliminated metrics that were occluding the selection process.

What students were doing to prepare for the TJ admissions exam wasn't "cheating" in any sense of the word. What they were doing is leveraging their parents' resources to attend prep programs that were cheating. That's not on the students or families, it's on the prep programs and their prior students who fed them questions from a secured exam. You can't blame the kids for this.

But at the same time, all PP is doing is insisting on continuing to measure the merit of students by standardized exams and academic competitions. This is a valueless statement. OF COURSE the new classes at TJ are going to have lower scores on standardized exams and probably not participate as heavily in competitions such as SciOly. Because the TJ admissions process is no longer overselecting for those metrics. When all you care about in an admissions process is metric X and Y, you shouldn't be surprised when your entire class excels at metric X and Y. It would be like a soccer team selecting their players entirely on goalkeeping skills or a basketball team on free throw shooting. Yes, those skills are tangentially relevant and could be a little bit predictive, but you're missing out on tons of other dimensions.

The key moving forward is for FCPS to do a better job of finding those other dimensions. But stopping the process of eliminating kids who aren't phenomenal test takers from the process at step one is a good...first step.

The new process indeed is failing to identify more students for the "top" slots (e.g. are the JMO kids) compared to the old process. A teacher recommendation or a verified achievement list could help. "Froshmore" selection process (by TJ teachers); if it is able to identify the "Right" candidates can also be adopted to the "Freshman" round selection

The more likely result is they will eliminate the froshmore round of admissions or take the teachers out of that. It wouldn't look good to have a comparison group, students rejected in 8th grade who get in the next year under a different admissions process.

Yes, but all indications are the new process is working well at identifying the top students.

And what are your indicators? Your "cookie" said so? You do not have any measurements. Look at the drop out rates and data for standardized competitions and accept the reality.

The dropout rates aren't significantly different than they were before COVID.

And again... yes, when you are overselecting for things like standardized exam scores and participation in STEM competitions, those metrics are going to go down when you stop doing that. The segment of the population who believes that those metrics are how you should evaluate kids is smaller than you think and shrinking by the day. So you can sit on your high horse and believe what you want, but you're falling behind the rest of us.

Did you check the class of 2025 (FCPS school profile - history). Started with 541 students (9 dropped out after committing). 15 froshmore's added and as of June there are 520 students. So 36 already dropped out not including the 9 who decided not to join. 5-10 more students will drop out and the junior year will start with ~510 students. Close to 9% drop. Don't think it is normal drop-out rate.

They won’t care. They increased the class sizes after the renovation so TJ will still have more seniors than in the past.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When a group of people is good enough to fill 95% of a team, 70% does feel like discrimination.

Another example, the NBA, Athletics teams, NFL, NHL...Well, Asians are not represented per their population % there and NO ONE seems to be saying "Let's fix this"

Why should someone else be expected to represent Asian American interests? If they want it so badly, Asian Americans need to develop their own diversity, equity & inclusion industry, financially and politically, to assert their census status as a minority populace, and defend merit based access to advanced education.

Not sure about any of that but glad that FCPS has raised the merit standards for TJ by eliminating the rampant cheating that had tainted admissions in previous years.

Hmm.... Do you have any proof/reference? Looking at the performance for AMC 10 etc. it seems class of 2025 and beyond are lagging behind other local schools. PSAT/NMSQT this year will be another benchmark for the class of 2025. Science Olympiad and other Science/Math/Academic competitions will still have some seniors. Drama and other non-stem activities including sports; maybe is getting better

Both of you are wrong.

While I disagree with the assertion that FCPS has lowered the merit standards for TJ admissions, they certainly have not raised them either. What they've done is eliminated metrics that were occluding the selection process.

What students were doing to prepare for the TJ admissions exam wasn't "cheating" in any sense of the word. What they were doing is leveraging their parents' resources to attend prep programs that were cheating. That's not on the students or families, it's on the prep programs and their prior students who fed them questions from a secured exam. You can't blame the kids for this.

But at the same time, all PP is doing is insisting on continuing to measure the merit of students by standardized exams and academic competitions. This is a valueless statement. OF COURSE the new classes at TJ are going to have lower scores on standardized exams and probably not participate as heavily in competitions such as SciOly. Because the TJ admissions process is no longer overselecting for those metrics. When all you care about in an admissions process is metric X and Y, you shouldn't be surprised when your entire class excels at metric X and Y. It would be like a soccer team selecting their players entirely on goalkeeping skills or a basketball team on free throw shooting. Yes, those skills are tangentially relevant and could be a little bit predictive, but you're missing out on tons of other dimensions.

The key moving forward is for FCPS to do a better job of finding those other dimensions. But stopping the process of eliminating kids who aren't phenomenal test takers from the process at step one is a good...first step.

The new process indeed is failing to identify more students for the "top" slots (e.g. are the JMO kids) compared to the old process. A teacher recommendation or a verified achievement list could help. "Froshmore" selection process (by TJ teachers); if it is able to identify the "Right" candidates can also be adopted to the "Freshman" round selection

The more likely result is they will eliminate the froshmore round of admissions or take the teachers out of that. It wouldn't look good to have a comparison group, students rejected in 8th grade who get in the next year under a different admissions process.

Yes, but all indications are the new process is working well at identifying the top students.

And what are your indicators? Your "cookie" said so? You do not have any measurements. Look at the drop out rates and data for standardized competitions and accept the reality.

The dropout rates aren't significantly different than they were before COVID.

And again... yes, when you are overselecting for things like standardized exam scores and participation in STEM competitions, those metrics are going to go down when you stop doing that. The segment of the population who believes that those metrics are how you should evaluate kids is smaller than you think and shrinking by the day. So you can sit on your high horse and believe what you want, but you're falling behind the rest of us.

Did you check the class of 2025 (FCPS school profile - history). Started with 541 students (9 dropped out after committing). 15 froshmore's added and as of June there are 520 students. So 36 already dropped out not including the 9 who decided not to join. 5-10 more students will drop out and the junior year will start with ~510 students. Close to 9% drop. Don't think it is normal drop-out rate.

Why would only 541 kids start? Wouldn’t they offer those slots to kids on the waitlist?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When a group of people is good enough to fill 95% of a team, 70% does feel like discrimination.

Another example, the NBA, Athletics teams, NFL, NHL...Well, Asians are not represented per their population % there and NO ONE seems to be saying "Let's fix this"

Why should someone else be expected to represent Asian American interests? If they want it so badly, Asian Americans need to develop their own diversity, equity & inclusion industry, financially and politically, to assert their census status as a minority populace, and defend merit based access to advanced education.

Not sure about any of that but glad that FCPS has raised the merit standards for TJ by eliminating the rampant cheating that had tainted admissions in previous years.

Hmm.... Do you have any proof/reference? Looking at the performance for AMC 10 etc. it seems class of 2025 and beyond are lagging behind other local schools. PSAT/NMSQT this year will be another benchmark for the class of 2025. Science Olympiad and other Science/Math/Academic competitions will still have some seniors. Drama and other non-stem activities including sports; maybe is getting better

Both of you are wrong.

While I disagree with the assertion that FCPS has lowered the merit standards for TJ admissions, they certainly have not raised them either. What they've done is eliminated metrics that were occluding the selection process.

What students were doing to prepare for the TJ admissions exam wasn't "cheating" in any sense of the word. What they were doing is leveraging their parents' resources to attend prep programs that were cheating. That's not on the students or families, it's on the prep programs and their prior students who fed them questions from a secured exam. You can't blame the kids for this.

But at the same time, all PP is doing is insisting on continuing to measure the merit of students by standardized exams and academic competitions. This is a valueless statement. OF COURSE the new classes at TJ are going to have lower scores on standardized exams and probably not participate as heavily in competitions such as SciOly. Because the TJ admissions process is no longer overselecting for those metrics. When all you care about in an admissions process is metric X and Y, you shouldn't be surprised when your entire class excels at metric X and Y. It would be like a soccer team selecting their players entirely on goalkeeping skills or a basketball team on free throw shooting. Yes, those skills are tangentially relevant and could be a little bit predictive, but you're missing out on tons of other dimensions.

The key moving forward is for FCPS to do a better job of finding those other dimensions. But stopping the process of eliminating kids who aren't phenomenal test takers from the process at step one is a good...first step.

The new process indeed is failing to identify more students for the "top" slots (e.g. are the JMO kids) compared to the old process. A teacher recommendation or a verified achievement list could help. "Froshmore" selection process (by TJ teachers); if it is able to identify the "Right" candidates can also be adopted to the "Freshman" round selection

The more likely result is they will eliminate the froshmore round of admissions or take the teachers out of that. It wouldn't look good to have a comparison group, students rejected in 8th grade who get in the next year under a different admissions process.

Yes, but all indications are the new process is working well at identifying the top students.

DP and strongly pro-reform. People need to stop parroting this talking point unless their intent is to parody the folks on the other side.

There are no indications that the new process is identifying the "top students" - even within their own schools. What absolutely is clear is that TJ is a much healthier environment than it was prior to the admissions changes. That much is inarguable if you have spent any significant time in that building over the past 15-20 years.

I personally would like to see teacher recommendations return to the process and perhaps a move from top 1.5% to top 1%, but the admissions changes were a monumental step in the right direction compared to what was happening before, where you had this enormous glut of students who were all trying to get to the same place on the same path when hundreds of other paths and destinations are available.

I mostly agree, but there are thousands of kids who are capable of doing well at TJ. The new process just selects a slightly different group from that pool than the old process. It's fairer to the whole county and less easy to game through test buying. Overall it's a step in the right direction but dropping the percentage and finding a way to add back teacher recs that would offset the inherent racial bias would be great.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When a group of people is good enough to fill 95% of a team, 70% does feel like discrimination.

Another example, the NBA, Athletics teams, NFL, NHL...Well, Asians are not represented per their population % there and NO ONE seems to be saying "Let's fix this"

Why should someone else be expected to represent Asian American interests? If they want it so badly, Asian Americans need to develop their own diversity, equity & inclusion industry, financially and politically, to assert their census status as a minority populace, and defend merit based access to advanced education.

Not sure about any of that but glad that FCPS has raised the merit standards for TJ by eliminating the rampant cheating that had tainted admissions in previous years.

Hmm.... Do you have any proof/reference? Looking at the performance for AMC 10 etc. it seems class of 2025 and beyond are lagging behind other local schools. PSAT/NMSQT this year will be another benchmark for the class of 2025. Science Olympiad and other Science/Math/Academic competitions will still have some seniors. Drama and other non-stem activities including sports; maybe is getting better

Both of you are wrong.

While I disagree with the assertion that FCPS has lowered the merit standards for TJ admissions, they certainly have not raised them either. What they've done is eliminated metrics that were occluding the selection process.

What students were doing to prepare for the TJ admissions exam wasn't "cheating" in any sense of the word. What they were doing is leveraging their parents' resources to attend prep programs that were cheating. That's not on the students or families, it's on the prep programs and their prior students who fed them questions from a secured exam. You can't blame the kids for this.

But at the same time, all PP is doing is insisting on continuing to measure the merit of students by standardized exams and academic competitions. This is a valueless statement. OF COURSE the new classes at TJ are going to have lower scores on standardized exams and probably not participate as heavily in competitions such as SciOly. Because the TJ admissions process is no longer overselecting for those metrics. When all you care about in an admissions process is metric X and Y, you shouldn't be surprised when your entire class excels at metric X and Y. It would be like a soccer team selecting their players entirely on goalkeeping skills or a basketball team on free throw shooting. Yes, those skills are tangentially relevant and could be a little bit predictive, but you're missing out on tons of other dimensions.

The key moving forward is for FCPS to do a better job of finding those other dimensions. But stopping the process of eliminating kids who aren't phenomenal test takers from the process at step one is a good...first step.

The new process indeed is failing to identify more students for the "top" slots (e.g. are the JMO kids) compared to the old process. A teacher recommendation or a verified achievement list could help. "Froshmore" selection process (by TJ teachers); if it is able to identify the "Right" candidates can also be adopted to the "Freshman" round selection

The more likely result is they will eliminate the froshmore round of admissions or take the teachers out of that. It wouldn't look good to have a comparison group, students rejected in 8th grade who get in the next year under a different admissions process.

Yes, but all indications are the new process is working well at identifying the top students.

And what are your indicators? Your "cookie" said so? You do not have any measurements. Look at the drop out rates and data for standardized competitions and accept the reality.

The dropout rates aren't significantly different than they were before COVID.

And again... yes, when you are overselecting for things like standardized exam scores and participation in STEM competitions, those metrics are going to go down when you stop doing that. The segment of the population who believes that those metrics are how you should evaluate kids is smaller than you think and shrinking by the day. So you can sit on your high horse and believe what you want, but you're falling behind the rest of us.

Did you check the class of 2025 (FCPS school profile - history). Started with 541 students (9 dropped out after committing). 15 froshmore's added and as of June there are 520 students. So 36 already dropped out not including the 9 who decided not to join. 5-10 more students will drop out and the junior year will start with ~510 students. Close to 9% drop. Don't think it is normal drop-out rate.

It is, with the exception of the COVID years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When a group of people is good enough to fill 95% of a team, 70% does feel like discrimination.

Another example, the NBA, Athletics teams, NFL, NHL...Well, Asians are not represented per their population % there and NO ONE seems to be saying "Let's fix this"

Why should someone else be expected to represent Asian American interests? If they want it so badly, Asian Americans need to develop their own diversity, equity & inclusion industry, financially and politically, to assert their census status as a minority populace, and defend merit based access to advanced education.

Not sure about any of that but glad that FCPS has raised the merit standards for TJ by eliminating the rampant cheating that had tainted admissions in previous years.

Hmm.... Do you have any proof/reference? Looking at the performance for AMC 10 etc. it seems class of 2025 and beyond are lagging behind other local schools. PSAT/NMSQT this year will be another benchmark for the class of 2025. Science Olympiad and other Science/Math/Academic competitions will still have some seniors. Drama and other non-stem activities including sports; maybe is getting better

Both of you are wrong.

While I disagree with the assertion that FCPS has lowered the merit standards for TJ admissions, they certainly have not raised them either. What they've done is eliminated metrics that were occluding the selection process.

What students were doing to prepare for the TJ admissions exam wasn't "cheating" in any sense of the word. What they were doing is leveraging their parents' resources to attend prep programs that were cheating. That's not on the students or families, it's on the prep programs and their prior students who fed them questions from a secured exam. You can't blame the kids for this.

But at the same time, all PP is doing is insisting on continuing to measure the merit of students by standardized exams and academic competitions. This is a valueless statement. OF COURSE the new classes at TJ are going to have lower scores on standardized exams and probably not participate as heavily in competitions such as SciOly. Because the TJ admissions process is no longer overselecting for those metrics. When all you care about in an admissions process is metric X and Y, you shouldn't be surprised when your entire class excels at metric X and Y. It would be like a soccer team selecting their players entirely on goalkeeping skills or a basketball team on free throw shooting. Yes, those skills are tangentially relevant and could be a little bit predictive, but you're missing out on tons of other dimensions.

The key moving forward is for FCPS to do a better job of finding those other dimensions. But stopping the process of eliminating kids who aren't phenomenal test takers from the process at step one is a good...first step.

The new process indeed is failing to identify more students for the "top" slots (e.g. are the JMO kids) compared to the old process. A teacher recommendation or a verified achievement list could help. "Froshmore" selection process (by TJ teachers); if it is able to identify the "Right" candidates can also be adopted to the "Freshman" round selection

The more likely result is they will eliminate the froshmore round of admissions or take the teachers out of that. It wouldn't look good to have a comparison group, students rejected in 8th grade who get in the next year under a different admissions process.

Yes, but all indications are the new process is working well at identifying the top students.

DP and strongly pro-reform. People need to stop parroting this talking point unless their intent is to parody the folks on the other side.

There are no indications that the new process is identifying the "top students" - even within their own schools. What absolutely is clear is that TJ is a much healthier environment than it was prior to the admissions changes. That much is inarguable if you have spent any significant time in that building over the past 15-20 years.

I personally would like to see teacher recommendations return to the process and perhaps a move from top 1.5% to top 1%, but the admissions changes were a monumental step in the right direction compared to what was happening before, where you had this enormous glut of students who were all trying to get to the same place on the same path when hundreds of other paths and destinations are available.

I mostly agree, but there are thousands of kids who are capable of doing well at TJ. The new process just selects a slightly different group from that pool than the old process. It's fairer to the whole county and less easy to game through test buying. Overall it's a step in the right direction but dropping the percentage and finding a way to add back teacher recs that would offset the inherent racial bias would be great.

PP. We agree 100%.

[Anonymous]

Can I just say - it makes me so happy that every time one of the old-status-quo C4TJ types replies to this thread, it bumps the words "TJ's New Admission Policy Does Not Discriminate" back up to the top.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can I just say - it makes me so happy that every time one of the old-status-quo C4TJ types replies to this thread, it bumps the words "TJ's New Admission Policy Does Not Discriminate" back up to the top.

I understand that they want to return a system where people can buy their way in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can I just say - it makes me so happy that every time one of the old-status-quo C4TJ types replies to this thread, it bumps the words "TJ's New Admission Policy Does Not Discriminate" back up to the top.

I understand that they want to return a system where people can buy their way in.

The exam would filter those who couldn't afford to drop $5k+ on prep so ensured selection was only higher SES families who prioritized TJ. Now it's more about who can handle the work and would benefit the most from it. The wealthy prepsters will be fine anywhere but for many a TJ education will be lifechanging.

[Anonymous]

funny thing is that even with the new TJ format, parents continue to send their kids to these prep centers!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Oh boy, this is really going to piss off all the Annandale Asians.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2023/05/23/thomas-jefferson-admissions-policy-upheld/

Supreme Court Rules Against Affirmative Action

https://www.wsj.com/articles/supreme-court-rules-against-affirmative-action-c94b5a9c

Oh boy, you must be really pissed.

LOL

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh boy, this is really going to piss off all the Annandale Asians.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2023/05/23/thomas-jefferson-admissions-policy-upheld/

Supreme Court Rules Against Affirmative Action

https://www.wsj.com/articles/supreme-court-rules-against-affirmative-action-c94b5a9c

Oh boy, you must be really pissed.

LOL

So? That’s not the same thing as the TJ system, which is closer to the UT-Austin auto-admit system than Harvard’s. If the TJ case does find its way to the Supreme Court, I’m interested to see how the Coalition tries to argue that a nominally race-neutral geography-based system is a proxy for race-based AA. At least Harvard and UNC were upfront about their consideration of race in admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh boy, this is really going to piss off all the Annandale Asians.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2023/05/23/thomas-jefferson-admissions-policy-upheld/

Supreme Court Rules Against Affirmative Action

https://www.wsj.com/articles/supreme-court-rules-against-affirmative-action-c94b5a9c

Oh boy, you must be really pissed.

LOL

Since the ruling was about colleges that explicitly used race as a factor, it has no bearing at all on TJ.