Official Government Shutdown 2023 Thread

[Anonymous]

hey i figure if i plan for the worst than maybe things will go ok.

on that note, if you think there might be any need to take a loan from your tsp during an extended shutdown, go ahead and add a checking/bank account as a linked financial institution in tsp.gov now, as there is a 7-day waiting period to disburse funds electronically to newly configured/changed bank accounts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The thing that most people don't (or want to) comprehend is that shutting down the government and reopening the government costs enormous amounts of money. It's grossly inefficient. Work that the American taxpayer is depending on, work that keeps our economy going is getting delayed.

Have you ever stepped away from a project/task for weeks/months? It takes lots of hours/work to get back to where you started, especially if it was complicated matter.

Not to mention all the planning and handwringing we're doing now, in anticipation of the shutdown. We could have launched a product in October and now I'm not sure how to proceed, and I won't have clear guidance until next week if I'm lucky.

Agreed, nobody is starting anything new and is in wait-and-see mode. It's so unproductive.

I work with the public a lot. Right now, I have multiple draft communications sitting on my desk because it would be stupid to send them out and invite people to meetings and events that may not happen until next quarter after all. So, I’m killing time here. This is so ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:hey i figure if i plan for the worst than maybe things will go ok.

on that note, if you think there might be any need to take a loan from your tsp during an extended shutdown, go ahead and add a checking/bank account as a linked financial institution in tsp.gov now, as there is a 7-day waiting period to disburse funds electronically to newly configured/changed bank accounts.

Thanks for the tip. That’s helpful. What are the consequences of taking out a TSP loan though?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have plane tickets for a weekend trip (planned 8 months ago) over Columbus/Indigenous Peoples weekend. Since I never traveled during past shutdowns, what is the likelihood of ATC and TSA working? (Not that any of us have crystal ball.)

They will force TSA to work unpaid.

That is so sh*tty. So blue collar workers at the TSA will be forced to come in without pay so that the fat-cat Congressmen who caused this shutdown will still be able to jet home?

As well as, of course, every other person who has a flight scheduled during the shutdown. Or would you prefer that all air travel in the country grind to a halt during the shutdown?

Umm yes. That's the point. It's a shutdown of government services because they can't reach any agreement on funding said services.

That should be the outcome when a shutdown is triggered.

So, also the military should stop working? National defense is on hold for the time being - we just hope no one notices? How about the Secret Service? People involved in monitoring nuclear power? Anyone can now wander onto military bases and take whatever they please? I could go on . . .

It's an absurd position, and I think you know that.

It is more absurd to have millions of Americans working without pay because the political leadership is dysfunctional. No other industry has to do this, but every few years we expect millions of civil servants and members of the military to quietly do their jobs with no pay because their jobs are very important to the daily functioning of our country and the public couldn't be inconvenienced. Shut down all of the airports, absolutely. Business leaders with influence would force the politicians to find a solution. Instead we have a bunch of GS-7 TSA employees bearing the cost of this dysfunction and they are the least to blame with the most to lose.

Can we please stop with the "working without pay" nonsense? No government worker is "working without pay." The pay is delayed. (Contractors, of course don't get paid, and I really feel sorry for them.) What is really happening is that all government workers get paid late, and many get paid for not working.

You all are coming at this form the point of view of the workers, which is understandable. But from the perspective of a person not involved, it's far more important to minimize disruption to the rest of the country, and economy, than it is to take draconian measures to try to prevent shutdowns. And it's unfortunate that federal employees' pay is *delayed* - but that's far better, for the country as a whole, than shutting down entirely.

Here’s what minimizing disruption gets you: more shutdowns because the average American isn’t affected. Maybe if the average American was inconvenienced, they vote for Reps who will do their job. It s easy to vote for chaos when the chaos doesn’t affect you. You want the Average American not to be inconvenienced. But the House directly represents average Americans. If average Americans vote for Reps who want shutdowns, then average Americans deserve to see the actual consequences of their votes.

No, that's not the goal. The goal is to avoid the tremendous economic dislocation and impact of the type of shutdown that you all are suggesting. I am not sure there is an appreciation of how catastrophic that type of shutdown would be.

Again, your goal is to minimize the impact on federal employees. That's perfectly understandable. But that's not my goal, and it's not necessarily the one that is in the best interest of the country. Your strategy is to make the consequences of the shutdown so severe that Congress wouldn't dream of letting it get to that point. While great in theory, in practice it's very dangerous. There's no indication that Congress as a whole is, at this point of time, capable of exercising that kind of rational thinking. Remember the fiscal cliff of 2012-13? The crazy caucus in the House is more powerful and less controlled than it was then.

Look, I get that federal workers get screwed here, and it's tough for many of them. But the "shut it all down" proposals all assume that the total shutdown would never happen. I think that's wildly optimistic, and if there's even a chance to avoid that kind of catastrophe, we should.

We all would like it if there were no further shutdowns. But if you're honest, you'll recognize that for the country as a whole (not federal workers), limiting the consequences of one is the right way to go.

But it’s not just about federal workers. It’s about ordinary Americans understanding how many things the federal government actually does so they are motivated to vote for elected officials that don’t engage in stupid politics that cause govt shutdowns.

[Anonymous]

So any news from the Hill today?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have plane tickets for a weekend trip (planned 8 months ago) over Columbus/Indigenous Peoples weekend. Since I never traveled during past shutdowns, what is the likelihood of ATC and TSA working? (Not that any of us have crystal ball.)

They will force TSA to work unpaid.

That is so sh*tty. So blue collar workers at the TSA will be forced to come in without pay so that the fat-cat Congressmen who caused this shutdown will still be able to jet home?

As well as, of course, every other person who has a flight scheduled during the shutdown. Or would you prefer that all air travel in the country grind to a halt during the shutdown?

Umm yes. That's the point. It's a shutdown of government services because they can't reach any agreement on funding said services.

That should be the outcome when a shutdown is triggered.

So, also the military should stop working? National defense is on hold for the time being - we just hope no one notices? How about the Secret Service? People involved in monitoring nuclear power? Anyone can now wander onto military bases and take whatever they please? I could go on . . .

It's an absurd position, and I think you know that.

It's not absurd, because Joe Average in middle America who thinks the govt has too much money doesn't see the affects of a shutdown. He still gets his SS check, he can call the IRS, his plane still flies.

Average Americas need to see what their Representatives are causing, and they won't see that until it's hard for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have plane tickets for a weekend trip (planned 8 months ago) over Columbus/Indigenous Peoples weekend. Since I never traveled during past shutdowns, what is the likelihood of ATC and TSA working? (Not that any of us have crystal ball.)

They will force TSA to work unpaid.

That is so sh*tty. So blue collar workers at the TSA will be forced to come in without pay so that the fat-cat Congressmen who caused this shutdown will still be able to jet home?

As well as, of course, every other person who has a flight scheduled during the shutdown. Or would you prefer that all air travel in the country grind to a halt during the shutdown?

Umm yes. That's the point. It's a shutdown of government services because they can't reach any agreement on funding said services.

That should be the outcome when a shutdown is triggered.

So, also the military should stop working? National defense is on hold for the time being - we just hope no one notices? How about the Secret Service? People involved in monitoring nuclear power? Anyone can now wander onto military bases and take whatever they please? I could go on . . .

It's an absurd position, and I think you know that.

It is more absurd to have millions of Americans working without pay because the political leadership is dysfunctional. No other industry has to do this, but every few years we expect millions of civil servants and members of the military to quietly do their jobs with no pay because their jobs are very important to the daily functioning of our country and the public couldn't be inconvenienced. Shut down all of the airports, absolutely. Business leaders with influence would force the politicians to find a solution. Instead we have a bunch of GS-7 TSA employees bearing the cost of this dysfunction and they are the least to blame with the most to lose.

Can we please stop with the "working without pay" nonsense? No government worker is "working without pay." The pay is delayed. (Contractors, of course don't get paid, and I really feel sorry for them.) What is really happening is that all government workers get paid late, and many get paid for not working.

You all are coming at this form the point of view of the workers, which is understandable. But from the perspective of a person not involved, it's far more important to minimize disruption to the rest of the country, and economy, than it is to take draconian measures to try to prevent shutdowns. And it's unfortunate that federal employees' pay is *delayed* - but that's far better, for the country as a whole, than shutting down entirely.

My mortgage is still due on time. We need food and the water bill paid and gas in the car because we are still expected to go to work. These don't get "delayed". And yes, we have savings for emergencies. And yes we have credit cards. However, you are still putting the onus of the shutdown on workers.

Far better for the country would be not to have this type of instability to begin with.

Even worse, you are likely a GS-13 or higher being paid in the six figures (which is the majority of federal workers who post on DCUM). The same thing is happening to GS-1 through GS-10 workers who are making low to mid five figures. Many of them don't have emergency options like savings to pay bills due while not getting a paycheck. Some of them might be able to swing one month of missed mortgage payments, but many do not have two months of mortgage and utilities and food bills, etc to cover more than a month of delayed payment.

And while the PP feels really sorry for the contractors, the federal contract workforce is almost double the federal civil service workforce. There are roughly 1.2M civil service employees and well over 2M federal contractors. Of those federal contractors, only a small portion have forward funded contracts that allow them to work. There are millions of contractors who will not get paid for time off during a shutdown. So, PP's sympathy is pretty much worth the same as conservatives "thoughts and prayers" when children are slaughtered by guns.

What we really need is to have rules on automatic continuance of federal pay for employees (both civil service and contractors) during a shutdown. Pay for employees needs to be pulled from discretionary spending and put into essential funding that is not covered by lack of appropriations. There are many things that are not included in discretionary spending and we need to move employee pay from one side of the ledger to the other so that federal employees (both civil service and contractor) are no longer political pawns of the childish Congress.

If not, then perhaps a rule that the Congressional appropriations bill should be the last bill to pass. In several of these shutdowns, the Congressional appropriations was passed when others were not, so that the Congress and their staff were paid to work through the shutdown while others were not. Congressmen should learn to work without pay or have their pay delayed until after they do their jobs and if they have to do their jobs with no staffers to help them, then maybe they'll actually feel like acting more like an adult than like a toddler.

I am the PP everyone hates, and I don't have a problem with this. I would note, however, that you are arguing that the government should mitigate the effect of the shutdown, not make it worse. That's exactly what I'm saying. Your fellow travelers, on the other hand, want to shut down everything - make the consequences for the country much worse if a shutdown happens.

DP. I don't hate you but I think you're veru incorrect.
PPs are trying to deal in incentives. Either make a shutdown so bad nobody does it / they pass legislation to make it impossible, or make it so toothless it's not a bargaining chip.
Your suggestion - that the less visible parts of government shut down (including payroll) - is the staus quo. It enables one side to hold the other hostage by making human shields out of SSA recipients and others, and is therefore no solution. It also has contributed to the slow denigrating of government services that allows people to say government doesn't do anything, because anything above the bare minimum keeps getting shut down every couple years.

I understand that they're dealing in incentives, or disincentives, and that the status quo sucks. No argument there. And I'm fine with making the shutdown so toothless that it ceases to be a bargaining ship. But I also think that making a shutdown "so bad nobody does it" is wildly optimistic, bordering on naive. Congress has shown no indication that they would be constrained in that way.

And from a partisan political standpoint, this would completely screw the Democrats, and the programs they support. Only one party has shown that it is willing to take the country hostage, and shoot the hostage, to get what they want. Making a shutdown catastrophic for the country would only give the GOP *more* leverage, and force the Democrats to make more and more concessions, and further gut government programs. Best case scenario, they would have to depend on rational republicans, the few that remain, to prevent disaster (and they'd get primaried during the next election).

Yes, the status quo sucks. But it's better than that alternative. This is a harsh way to say it, but we're making an omelet here, and federal workers are the eggs. I'm sorry about that, but there it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have plane tickets for a weekend trip (planned 8 months ago) over Columbus/Indigenous Peoples weekend. Since I never traveled during past shutdowns, what is the likelihood of ATC and TSA working? (Not that any of us have crystal ball.)

They will force TSA to work unpaid.

That is so sh*tty. So blue collar workers at the TSA will be forced to come in without pay so that the fat-cat Congressmen who caused this shutdown will still be able to jet home?

As well as, of course, every other person who has a flight scheduled during the shutdown. Or would you prefer that all air travel in the country grind to a halt during the shutdown?

Umm yes. That's the point. It's a shutdown of government services because they can't reach any agreement on funding said services.

That should be the outcome when a shutdown is triggered.

So, also the military should stop working? National defense is on hold for the time being - we just hope no one notices? How about the Secret Service? People involved in monitoring nuclear power? Anyone can now wander onto military bases and take whatever they please? I could go on . . .

It's an absurd position, and I think you know that.

It is more absurd to have millions of Americans working without pay because the political leadership is dysfunctional. No other industry has to do this, but every few years we expect millions of civil servants and members of the military to quietly do their jobs with no pay because their jobs are very important to the daily functioning of our country and the public couldn't be inconvenienced. Shut down all of the airports, absolutely. Business leaders with influence would force the politicians to find a solution. Instead we have a bunch of GS-7 TSA employees bearing the cost of this dysfunction and they are the least to blame with the most to lose.

Can we please stop with the "working without pay" nonsense? No government worker is "working without pay." The pay is delayed. (Contractors, of course don't get paid, and I really feel sorry for them.) What is really happening is that all government workers get paid late, and many get paid for not working.

You all are coming at this form the point of view of the workers, which is understandable. But from the perspective of a person not involved, it's far more important to minimize disruption to the rest of the country, and economy, than it is to take draconian measures to try to prevent shutdowns. And it's unfortunate that federal employees' pay is *delayed* - but that's far better, for the country as a whole, than shutting down entirely.

Here’s what minimizing disruption gets you: more shutdowns because the average American isn’t affected. Maybe if the average American was inconvenienced, they vote for Reps who will do their job. It s easy to vote for chaos when the chaos doesn’t affect you. You want the Average American not to be inconvenienced. But the House directly represents average Americans. If average Americans vote for Reps who want shutdowns, then average Americans deserve to see the actual consequences of their votes.

No, that's not the goal. The goal is to avoid the tremendous economic dislocation and impact of the type of shutdown that you all are suggesting. I am not sure there is an appreciation of how catastrophic that type of shutdown would be.

Again, your goal is to minimize the impact on federal employees. That's perfectly understandable. But that's not my goal, and it's not necessarily the one that is in the best interest of the country. Your strategy is to make the consequences of the shutdown so severe that Congress wouldn't dream of letting it get to that point. While great in theory, in practice it's very dangerous. There's no indication that Congress as a whole is, at this point of time, capable of exercising that kind of rational thinking. Remember the fiscal cliff of 2012-13? The crazy caucus in the House is more powerful and less controlled than it was then.

Look, I get that federal workers get screwed here, and it's tough for many of them. But the "shut it all down" proposals all assume that the total shutdown would never happen. I think that's wildly optimistic, and if there's even a chance to avoid that kind of catastrophe, we should.

We all would like it if there were no further shutdowns. But if you're honest, you'll recognize that for the country as a whole (not federal workers), limiting the consequences of one is the right way to go.

This is the most profoundly non-strategic thinking about government I have heard in a very long time. Remarkable. Not in a good way.

What a compelling response. Thoroughly articulated, well-reasoned, and persuasive. Kudos.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have plane tickets for a weekend trip (planned 8 months ago) over Columbus/Indigenous Peoples weekend. Since I never traveled during past shutdowns, what is the likelihood of ATC and TSA working? (Not that any of us have crystal ball.)

They will force TSA to work unpaid.

That is so sh*tty. So blue collar workers at the TSA will be forced to come in without pay so that the fat-cat Congressmen who caused this shutdown will still be able to jet home?

As well as, of course, every other person who has a flight scheduled during the shutdown. Or would you prefer that all air travel in the country grind to a halt during the shutdown?

Umm yes. That's the point. It's a shutdown of government services because they can't reach any agreement on funding said services.

That should be the outcome when a shutdown is triggered.

So, also the military should stop working? National defense is on hold for the time being - we just hope no one notices? How about the Secret Service? People involved in monitoring nuclear power? Anyone can now wander onto military bases and take whatever they please? I could go on . . .

It's an absurd position, and I think you know that.

It's not absurd, because Joe Average in middle America who thinks the govt has too much money doesn't see the affects of a shutdown. He still gets his SS check, he can call the IRS, his plane still flies.

Average Americas need to see what their Representatives are causing, and they won't see that until it's hard for them.

And your position re the Military, Secret Service, etc? They stop work as well?

[Anonymous]

Right so then make shutdowns a thing of the past and require Congress to actively legislate—funding continues until they change it. Easy. Permanent CR.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The thing that most people don't (or want to) comprehend is that shutting down the government and reopening the government costs enormous amounts of money. It's grossly inefficient. Work that the American taxpayer is depending on, work that keeps our economy going is getting delayed.

Have you ever stepped away from a project/task for weeks/months? It takes lots of hours/work to get back to where you started, especially if it was complicated matter.

Not to mention all the planning and handwringing we're doing now, in anticipation of the shutdown. We could have launched a product in October and now I'm not sure how to proceed, and I won't have clear guidance until next week if I'm lucky.

Agreed, nobody is starting anything new and is in wait-and-see mode. It's so unproductive.

I work with the public a lot. Right now, I have multiple draft communications sitting on my desk because it would be stupid to send them out and invite people to meetings and events that may not happen until next quarter after all. So, I’m killing time here. This is so ridiculous.

isn't this standard operating procedure at gov job? killing time until boss notices

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have plane tickets for a weekend trip (planned 8 months ago) over Columbus/Indigenous Peoples weekend. Since I never traveled during past shutdowns, what is the likelihood of ATC and TSA working? (Not that any of us have crystal ball.)

They will force TSA to work unpaid.

That is so sh*tty. So blue collar workers at the TSA will be forced to come in without pay so that the fat-cat Congressmen who caused this shutdown will still be able to jet home?

As well as, of course, every other person who has a flight scheduled during the shutdown. Or would you prefer that all air travel in the country grind to a halt during the shutdown?

Umm yes. That's the point. It's a shutdown of government services because they can't reach any agreement on funding said services.

That should be the outcome when a shutdown is triggered.

So, also the military should stop working? National defense is on hold for the time being - we just hope no one notices? How about the Secret Service? People involved in monitoring nuclear power? Anyone can now wander onto military bases and take whatever they please? I could go on . . .

It's an absurd position, and I think you know that.

It's not absurd, because Joe Average in middle America who thinks the govt has too much money doesn't see the affects of a shutdown. He still gets his SS check, he can call the IRS, his plane still flies.

Average Americas need to see what their Representatives are causing, and they won't see that until it's hard for them.

What about the military? Intelligence agencies? FBI? Homeland Security? ICE? BCP? Embassies and Consulates? How much risk do you want to put the US in? Because if any of these agencies/services are shutdown, then the "pain" may be an invasion, rise in crime that could include loss of life, endangering US citizens abroad, compromise of US national security and more. Do you have any line at all of what is essential? Does your political philosophy in this situation mean that you consider loss of human life is acceptable just to drive the point home? Are you willing to have a foreign terrorist group enter the US and attack the US with no LEO or military to stop them or capture them? Are you willing to sacrifice US citizens in foreign countries to terrorist or military action and offer them no protection? Are you willing to let illegal aliens (or undocumented migrants) enter the nation at an even higher rate than currently are entering because we've eliminated all forms of border monitoring? Are you willing to have a crime spree because the FBI is not working?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The thing that most people don't (or want to) comprehend is that shutting down the government and reopening the government costs enormous amounts of money. It's grossly inefficient. Work that the American taxpayer is depending on, work that keeps our economy going is getting delayed.

Have you ever stepped away from a project/task for weeks/months? It takes lots of hours/work to get back to where you started, especially if it was complicated matter.

Not to mention all the planning and handwringing we're doing now, in anticipation of the shutdown. We could have launched a product in October and now I'm not sure how to proceed, and I won't have clear guidance until next week if I'm lucky.

Agreed, nobody is starting anything new and is in wait-and-see mode. It's so unproductive.

I work with the public a lot. Right now, I have multiple draft communications sitting on my desk because it would be stupid to send them out and invite people to meetings and events that may not happen until next quarter after all. So, I’m killing time here. This is so ridiculous.

isn't this standard operating procedure at gov job? killing time until boss notices

No, it’s not. The reason you have this impression is that federal employees are undercut at every opportunity. They’re doing their best with limited resources and leadership. I’m shocked government functions as well as it does at this point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have plane tickets for a weekend trip (planned 8 months ago) over Columbus/Indigenous Peoples weekend. Since I never traveled during past shutdowns, what is the likelihood of ATC and TSA working? (Not that any of us have crystal ball.)

They will force TSA to work unpaid.

That is so sh*tty. So blue collar workers at the TSA will be forced to come in without pay so that the fat-cat Congressmen who caused this shutdown will still be able to jet home?

As well as, of course, every other person who has a flight scheduled during the shutdown. Or would you prefer that all air travel in the country grind to a halt during the shutdown?

Umm yes. That's the point. It's a shutdown of government services because they can't reach any agreement on funding said services.

That should be the outcome when a shutdown is triggered.

So, also the military should stop working? National defense is on hold for the time being - we just hope no one notices? How about the Secret Service? People involved in monitoring nuclear power? Anyone can now wander onto military bases and take whatever they please? I could go on . . .

It's an absurd position, and I think you know that.

It is more absurd to have millions of Americans working without pay because the political leadership is dysfunctional. No other industry has to do this, but every few years we expect millions of civil servants and members of the military to quietly do their jobs with no pay because their jobs are very important to the daily functioning of our country and the public couldn't be inconvenienced. Shut down all of the airports, absolutely. Business leaders with influence would force the politicians to find a solution. Instead we have a bunch of GS-7 TSA employees bearing the cost of this dysfunction and they are the least to blame with the most to lose.

Can we please stop with the "working without pay" nonsense? No government worker is "working without pay." The pay is delayed. (Contractors, of course don't get paid, and I really feel sorry for them.) What is really happening is that all government workers get paid late, and many get paid for not working.

You all are coming at this form the point of view of the workers, which is understandable. But from the perspective of a person not involved, it's far more important to minimize disruption to the rest of the country, and economy, than it is to take draconian measures to try to prevent shutdowns. And it's unfortunate that federal employees' pay is *delayed* - but that's far better, for the country as a whole, than shutting down entirely.

My mortgage is still due on time. We need food and the water bill paid and gas in the car because we are still expected to go to work. These don't get "delayed". And yes, we have savings for emergencies. And yes we have credit cards. However, you are still putting the onus of the shutdown on workers.

Far better for the country would be not to have this type of instability to begin with.

Even worse, you are likely a GS-13 or higher being paid in the six figures (which is the majority of federal workers who post on DCUM). The same thing is happening to GS-1 through GS-10 workers who are making low to mid five figures. Many of them don't have emergency options like savings to pay bills due while not getting a paycheck. Some of them might be able to swing one month of missed mortgage payments, but many do not have two months of mortgage and utilities and food bills, etc to cover more than a month of delayed payment.

And while the PP feels really sorry for the contractors, the federal contract workforce is almost double the federal civil service workforce. There are roughly 1.2M civil service employees and well over 2M federal contractors. Of those federal contractors, only a small portion have forward funded contracts that allow them to work. There are millions of contractors who will not get paid for time off during a shutdown. So, PP's sympathy is pretty much worth the same as conservatives "thoughts and prayers" when children are slaughtered by guns.

What we really need is to have rules on automatic continuance of federal pay for employees (both civil service and contractors) during a shutdown. Pay for employees needs to be pulled from discretionary spending and put into essential funding that is not covered by lack of appropriations. There are many things that are not included in discretionary spending and we need to move employee pay from one side of the ledger to the other so that federal employees (both civil service and contractor) are no longer political pawns of the childish Congress.

If not, then perhaps a rule that the Congressional appropriations bill should be the last bill to pass. In several of these shutdowns, the Congressional appropriations was passed when others were not, so that the Congress and their staff were paid to work through the shutdown while others were not. Congressmen should learn to work without pay or have their pay delayed until after they do their jobs and if they have to do their jobs with no staffers to help them, then maybe they'll actually feel like acting more like an adult than like a toddler.

I am the PP everyone hates, and I don't have a problem with this. I would note, however, that you are arguing that the government should mitigate the effect of the shutdown, not make it worse. That's exactly what I'm saying. Your fellow travelers, on the other hand, want to shut down everything - make the consequences for the country much worse if a shutdown happens.

DP. I don't hate you but I think you're veru incorrect.
PPs are trying to deal in incentives. Either make a shutdown so bad nobody does it / they pass legislation to make it impossible, or make it so toothless it's not a bargaining chip.
Your suggestion - that the less visible parts of government shut down (including payroll) - is the staus quo. It enables one side to hold the other hostage by making human shields out of SSA recipients and others, and is therefore no solution. It also has contributed to the slow denigrating of government services that allows people to say government doesn't do anything, because anything above the bare minimum keeps getting shut down every couple years.

I understand that they're dealing in incentives, or disincentives, and that the status quo sucks. No argument there. And I'm fine with making the shutdown so toothless that it ceases to be a bargaining ship. But I also think that making a shutdown "so bad nobody does it" is wildly optimistic, bordering on naive. Congress has shown no indication that they would be constrained in that way.

And from a partisan political standpoint, this would completely screw the Democrats, and the programs they support. Only one party has shown that it is willing to take the country hostage, and shoot the hostage, to get what they want. Making a shutdown catastrophic for the country would only give the GOP *more* leverage, and force the Democrats to make more and more concessions, and further gut government programs. Best case scenario, they would have to depend on rational republicans, the few that remain, to prevent disaster (and they'd get primaried during the next election).

Yes, the status quo sucks. But it's better than that alternative. This is a harsh way to say it, but we're making an omelet here, and federal workers are the eggs. I'm sorry about that, but there it is.

I don’t think it’s better than the alternative and I don’t think your political analysis is correct. My rural in-laws used to vote Democrat but after Clinton they’ve been increasingly voting for angry culture warrior republicans. Despite the fact they get federal agricultural payments, disability, Medicaid and are paying off federal student loans they say the federal government has never done anything for people like them. They should live with the choice they made, their congressman has been outspoken about shutting down our useless federal government so I think we should stop shielding them from the consequences of their actions, same for the businessmen who voted for this and are waiting to get through TSA right now. Why are my colleagues and I the only ones to pay for this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So any news from the Hill today?

+1