What’s the different between upper middle class and upper class?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Based on these responses you can be upper class while earning $100k in investments, sitting on a not for profit board and living extremely modestly. But upper middle while earning $1 million.

We are borderline of UMC and UC. $3m HHI, few properties, can technically retire but cannot maintain current lifestyle without working.

Some people may say we are definitely UC. I consider ourselves UMC.

What is your net worth?

Around $15m, enough to retire but not maintain our lifestyle. We have 3 minor children.

What's your lifestyle and yearly spend? At $15m you could spend >500k/yr forever.

We have 3 kids to pay for college, grad school, weddings, down pays. Yes, we can retire but we are still in our forties and will probably work for another ten years.

The people I consider UC are ones with generational wealth where you don’t have to work. I always tell my kids they aren’t rich because they will have to get a job after college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Upper middle class goes to Hawaii. Upper class has a condo in Hawaii.

Upper middle either lives in a great school district or sends their kids to private school. Upper class does boarding school.

Upper middle class has a cleaning lady once or twice a week. Upper class has a housekeeper.

Condos are for poor people. Not accurate

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Upper middle class goes to Hawaii. Upper class has a condo in Hawaii.

Upper middle either lives in a great school district or sends their kids to private school. Upper class does boarding school.

Upper middle class has a cleaning lady once or twice a week. Upper class has a housekeeper.

Condos are for poor people. Not accurate

Uh not necessarily. One set of my relatives keeps a condo in Bal Harbour. They fly private and have a large place in the Caribbean, an apartment building named after our family which they own, and several other residences on the east coast. I also have additional close family members who chose a similar set up because they didn’t want the hassle of a main house as they got older. They’re multigenerational wealthy that also keep a summer home and winter home. Of course, the condo in question is a half a floor (probably 3,000 square feet) with its own private garage overlooking prime waterfront and worth at least $5 million.

[Anonymous]

Neither of these terms has any fixed meaning. The end.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Once again, lots of people are conflating class with money, which itself is a very middle class way of looking at things.

UMC has a home theater; UC has a (live) theater subscription.

UMC has a power boat; UC has a sailboat.

UMC is terribly concerned with meeting the right people; UC already knows them. (Whether they like them is a whole 'nother matter.)

UMC has a freshly paved and sealed driveway. UC has washboarded gravel.

UMC children are William (never Will or Billy) and Charlotte (never Lottie or Char). UC children are Bungy, Lala, Chip/Trey/Quinn, and Roo.

UMC fly on A plane. UC fly on THE plane.

UMC kids learn golf from the club pro. UC kids learn from their parents and grandparents.

UMC horse-crazy daughters buy $1200 boots for horse shows. UC daughters go fox hunting in their mom's old tweeds.

You describe old money vs new money, not UMC vs UC.

Bill Gates is most certainly UC, but his horse riding daughter spends tons on the latest fashions.

Jeff Bezos owns a $250MM super yacht, not a sailboat.

None of their children are Bungy or Roo.

[Anonymous]

If you have to work, you’re not upper.

[Anonymous]

I don't have to work BUT I also don't have washboarded gravel or go foxhunting.

[Anonymous]

I just love the A plane vs THE plane, lol.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't have to work BUT I also don't have washboarded gravel or go foxhunting.

whats stopping you? get yourself a chesapeake bay retriever and teach that boy to hunt

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Upper middle has at least some income through a w-2 and actually needs to work to maintain their lifestyle/savings.

Upper class can fully sustain themselves with investments.

Plenty of FIRE people “sustain themselves with investments.” But they are living on $100k a year in a LCOL area. That doesn’t make them upper class.

But many upper class people are cheap as hell.

For sure. But that doesn't have anything to do with whether or not they are UC.

My mother wouldn't let me order sour cream on my baked potato at Ponderosa because it cost 25 cents extra. Drive up the road from that Ponderosa (just about the only place we ever ate out, unless you count BK, which was also rare) a ways and you would come across a uni building with our name on it. Lol. She was a money hoarder -- it's a mental illness and had nothing to do with how much money there actually was, or the fact that she had grown up the way most UC people do. She was just nuts. I remember one evening at the Country Club we were having dinner with my grandparents and my grandfather looks up from the menu and says to my grandmother "Larla, we can't afford this!" and she just shook her head at him annoyed -- they could afford every dinner in the place and the building it was in to boot, and more. People have weird relationships with money and get very controlling around spending and sometimes having a lot of money doesn't really matter. My grandfather's dad jumped off a building in NYC in 1929 though (yeah, not a myth, it did happen) -- so we will allow him his trauma and controlling feelings around money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Upper Class: This is the realm of traditional blue-blooded elites who, although they lack the almost mythical wealth of their higher counterparts, still wield considerable influence. Think of families like the Kennedys and Roosevelts — families who, according to Fussell, are obviously extremely elite but too “public” to be placed in the higher “top out of sight” tier.

Upper Middle Class: This class represents the backbone of educated professionals who, while not possessing the lineage or heritage wealth of the ‘Upper Class’, nonetheless hold significant sway within society. If the ‘Upper Class’ is defined by heritage and wealth, then the ‘Upper Middle Class’ is defined by education. Here, you’ll find a plethora of Ivy League degrees and advanced qualifications. Universities are seen not merely as gateways to professional success but as indispensable institutions for cultural enlightenment and social bonding. As for professions, expect a broad spectrum. They’re your accomplished lawyers, seasoned doctors, university professors, and successful small business owners. Their careers offer more than economic comfort — they command societal respect and intellectual satisfaction. Culturally, the ‘Upper Middle Class’ champions meritocracy and the pursuit of personal growth. They place a high premium on cultural literacy, aesthetic refinement, and intellectual curiosity. In essence, the ‘Upper Middle Class’ values are rooted in achievement through dedication and education rather than inherited status. They are the embodiment of the American dream, where one can rise through the ranks via hard work and intellectual acumen.

Note class is what you're born into, not the money you have. A blue collar plumber who wins the lottery or happens to sell his business for $20 million is still High Proletarian. Now, his kids might level up. That is, no matter how much sheen you put on it, you will find your class markers betraying you even if you become successful and wealthy. For instance, I know some very wealthy and successful people who grew up poor and their very nice and tasteful house is packed with food. Like ridiculous and wasteful amounts of food -- because it's a sign of comfort and of the trauma due to food insecurity that they experienced as children. That's a sure sign that they were born lower middle class or lower.

Most of this sounds straight out of chatgpt, with all the attendant lack of understanding.

Oh please enlighten us on what is misunderstood. This was pulled from notes from Paul Fussell's book, "Class" along with personal anecdotes and recognizing it's a wonderful, albeit dated guide to class distinctions in America. Or perhaps I struck a nerve because it hit too close to home? If it did, then it's probably because you're decidedly middle class and insecure.

PP here. Lol, I've read that book, in fact I recommended it here a couple of years ago. I bet that is how you knew about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Upper Class: This is the realm of traditional blue-blooded elites who, although they lack the almost mythical wealth of their higher counterparts, still wield considerable influence. Think of families like the Kennedys and Roosevelts — families who, according to Fussell, are obviously extremely elite but too “public” to be placed in the higher “top out of sight” tier.

Upper Middle Class: This class represents the backbone of educated professionals who, while not possessing the lineage or heritage wealth of the ‘Upper Class’, nonetheless hold significant sway within society. If the ‘Upper Class’ is defined by heritage and wealth, then the ‘Upper Middle Class’ is defined by education. Here, you’ll find a plethora of Ivy League degrees and advanced qualifications. Universities are seen not merely as gateways to professional success but as indispensable institutions for cultural enlightenment and social bonding. As for professions, expect a broad spectrum. They’re your accomplished lawyers, seasoned doctors, university professors, and successful small business owners. Their careers offer more than economic comfort — they command societal respect and intellectual satisfaction. Culturally, the ‘Upper Middle Class’ champions meritocracy and the pursuit of personal growth. They place a high premium on cultural literacy, aesthetic refinement, and intellectual curiosity. In essence, the ‘Upper Middle Class’ values are rooted in achievement through dedication and education rather than inherited status. They are the embodiment of the American dream, where one can rise through the ranks via hard work and intellectual acumen.

Note class is what you're born into, not the money you have. A blue collar plumber who wins the lottery or happens to sell his business for $20 million is still High Proletarian. Now, his kids might level up. That is, no matter how much sheen you put on it, you will find your class markers betraying you even if you become successful and wealthy. For instance, I know some very wealthy and successful people who grew up poor and their very nice and tasteful house is packed with food. Like ridiculous and wasteful amounts of food -- because it's a sign of comfort and of the trauma due to food insecurity that they experienced as children. That's a sure sign that they were born lower middle class or lower.

Most of this sounds straight out of chatgpt, with all the attendant lack of understanding.

Oh please enlighten us on what is misunderstood. This was pulled from notes from Paul Fussell's book, "Class" along with personal anecdotes and recognizing it's a wonderful, albeit dated guide to class distinctions in America. Or perhaps I struck a nerve because it hit too close to home? If it did, then it's probably because you're decidedly middle class and insecure.

PP here. Lol, I've read that book, in fact I recommended it here a couple of years ago. I bet that is how you knew about it.

I've also recommended it here and like to quote it whenever this topic comes up, having read it decades ago. You didn't answer my question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Class doesn’t mean much in the US.

What you are really asking is the difference between being a high earner and being wealthy.

If you make a bunch of money but also have a mortgage and are saving for college/retirement/etc then you are upper middle class.

If you have a lot of money in investments and can live comfortably off the income from said money without drawing it down then you are wealthy.

Most upper middle class people aspire to become wealthy but obviously not all succeed.

Your definition is incomplete.
I’m retired and live a comfortable life off the income from my investments. I’m far from wealthy.
Living comfortably is vague. You have to be specific about the type of likely you can afford. Private jets, multiple housekeepers, etc

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Upper middle has at least some income through a w-2 and actually needs to work to maintain their lifestyle/savings.

Upper class can fully sustain themselves with investments.

Plenty of FIRE people “sustain themselves with investments.” But they are living on $100k a year in a LCOL area. That doesn’t make them upper class.

But many upper class people are cheap as hell.

For sure. But that doesn't have anything to do with whether or not they are UC.

My mother wouldn't let me order sour cream on my baked potato at Ponderosa because it cost 25 cents extra. Drive up the road from that Ponderosa (just about the only place we ever ate out, unless you count BK, which was also rare) a ways and you would come across a uni building with our name on it. Lol. She was a money hoarder -- it's a mental illness and had nothing to do with how much money there actually was, or the fact that she had grown up the way most UC people do. She was just nuts. I remember one evening at the Country Club we were having dinner with my grandparents and my grandfather looks up from the menu and says to my grandmother "Larla, we can't afford this!" and she just shook her head at him annoyed -- they could afford every dinner in the place and the building it was in to boot, and more. People have weird relationships with money and get very controlling around spending and sometimes having a lot of money doesn't really matter. My grandfather's dad jumped off a building in NYC in 1929 though (yeah, not a myth, it did happen) -- so we will allow him his trauma and controlling feelings around money.

Sounds like my FIL. UHNW and almost had a heart attack when he thought we weren’t covering the entire $100 Carrabba’s bill at dinner. It’s a sickness.

[Anonymous]

Ha my sister married into a UC Bostonian family - you would never know it when you look at them.

The parents have a house in the NE for the summer and in the SE for the winter.

Will fly commercial but as they have gotten older prefer to fly on private jets.

Daughter married into finance and her HHI is around $10 million a year.

Son (my sisters husband) and my sister do well but are not as insanely wealthy as the daughter. Their HHI is around $1.5 million a year.

The family trust is around $20 million and nobody touches the principal it just gets passed down through the generations.