That Brock Allen Turner is a dirtbag

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Holy. Shit.

https://mobile.twitter.com/laurenduca/status/739505679635992577

Actually, the father is correct.

Both of them were drunk. Both. She was so drunk, she had no idea of anything, and didn't come-to until she was in the hospital, with no recollection. She was black-out drunk. While no one deserves to be raped, she placed herself in a very dangerous state. I do want to know where her friends were, where her sister was, where ANY responsible person was - probably drunk themselves. It would have been a cold day in hell, in college, when I would have left one of my friends (or a perfect stranger) alone, that dangerously drunk.

His son, in his drunken state, assaulted this girl. Very, very wrong. He IS taking responsibility for his actions. What disturbs me, is not only is she NOT taking responsibility for her own stupidity, but she has all the pity in the world. The net result of that is the message that people can get as stupid-drunk as they want and expect NO harm to come of them. That is NOT a message I have EVER given my children, and ever will.

This statement from the victim? “You took away my worth, my privacy, my energy, my time, my intimacy, my confidence, my own voice, until today,” she read in court from her victim impact statement,

What kind of worth does one have when one is so drunk, one can't even function? What kind of confidence? What kind of intimacy?

And this? "I was the wounded antelope of the herd, completely alone and vulnerable, physically unable to fend for myself, and he chose me."

She completely brushes aside her responsibility in becoming a 'wounded antelope'.


The judge did good in this case.

Probably in the minority on this forum but I completely agree with you. And for her to equate her experience with that if someone who is raped by a stranger (i.e. Pulled off the sidewalk without warning and raped with life threatened) trivializes the latter's assault. These crimes are absolutely different.

Rape is rape. I wasn't pulled off a street by a random but I was drugged and carried unconscious up to his dorm room. You think my experience in the aftermath of my rape is different bc I was drinking that night or bc I left my beer unattended with someone I thought was a friend? The only thing that makes my experience different than the violent stranger rape you describe, is that people like you would blame me for thinking I should be able to go out and have a beer w/o getting raped. Actually, people like you would probably also blame a victim of stranger rape for their clothing or the hour they were walking around at night. This woman was so drunk that she passed out unconscious. he was rejected by other more coherent women's that night - he chose her bc she couldn't fight back. Let me repeat, rape is rape.

The key point is that those other women rejected him and he backed off. He was not trying to force himself on anyone. And Emily Doe was not exactly a babe in the woods herself. She willingly left with this guy and she probably would have willingly engaged in sexual acts with him if she had not passed out. But she did pass out and he kept going...an obvious sexual assault.

This was going to be a regrettable night for Emily Doe whether she met up with this guy or not. If he had just backed off and left her alone she STILL would have been passed out behind a dumpster like a skid row bum.

Regretting a drunk night is way, way, WAY different than being raped.

She could have been the Virgin Mary and people like you would still find a way to rationalize that it was her fault.

Do you not get that having a drunk night where you remember nothing is allowing other people to take advantage of you if they want? What he did isn't fair, right, or legal. He's a criminal. Why put your trust in a (potential) criminal?

[Anonymous]

more about the family:

http://heavy.com/news/2016/06/brock-turner-parents-father-dad-mother-mom-dan-carleen-facebook-page-20-minutes-of-action/

[Anonymous]

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Yes, obviously there was enough to convict him. The jury convicted him. My point was that if she had had a better memory of the night - if she had been a better witness herself and provided more details about what happened - there may have been even more that they could have charged him with. In case you think I'm implying that she is in any way responsible for this assault I am not. But the reality is drinking to the point of blacking out has made her memory of the night very vague. Thank goodness those Swedes came along when they did because without them I don't know that this ever would have been brought to justice which is scary. She would have woken up behind that dumpster with her clothes a mess, abrasions on her body and no memory of what had happened to her. Scary!

I didn't think you were implying anything about her. I just think part of the reason we kind of accept insane sentences like these is because we imagine there are some facts up in the air. He was charged and convicted of sex crimes that permit a 14 year sentence. The problem isn't that he wasn't charged with enough, its that the judge didn't punish him commensurate with the offense he was convicted of.

Also, a small irony of the Swedes coming along is that they're probably the reason the more serious initial charge wasn't sent to the jury; they interrupted him before he could earn himself more jail time.

I still don't think that this guy was going to rape her. If that had been his intention he would have just done it rather than spending all that time doing that other stuff to her. This wasn't foreplay on his part and he knew that she was passed out cold. He was doing what he wanted to do and making the deliberate decision to leave no evidence behind while maintaining the ability to get up and leave in a hurry if someone came along. He did not anticipate the Swedes tackling the sh*t out of him however. Good for those Swedes!!!! And without those Swedes there would be no case. That is a very sobering thought.

He *did* rape her.

I guess I was going by the old fashioned P in V definition of rape. I don't think that occurred here because he did not want to leave his DNA on the victim. Some posters think that if the Swedes hadn't have come along when they did that he would have progressed to P in V penetration thus upping the severity of his crime and probably the amount of time he received from the judge.

What he did to this young woman was awful but it could have been even worse.

And I just looked at what he was actually convicted of: 6 charges, 3 of them felony. He was convicted of Assault with intent to rape. So it does not sound as though he was convicted of rape. He was convicted of felony sexual assault.

That is some really desperate hair splitting.

Umm, no. That is a FACT. And facts are important.

You are distinguishing between an attempted rape and a rape, and saying "Well, it wasn't that bad. He isn't really a rapist."

It wasn't for lack of trying.

He did not actually rape her which is why he was not convicted of rape. We don't call him a "rapist" any more than we would call the victim of an attempted murder a "murder victim".

I am not "apologizing" for this guy AT ALL. But if you start "convicting" him of things that he did not actually do you make what he DID do sound made up too.

Yeah, you are. We treat attempted murderers with the same harshness as actual murderers. Attempted rapists should get the same treatment as people who actually complete their rape.

Do you seriously believe that he didn't digitally penetrate her with his fingers? The witnesses weren't close enough to see, but do you seriously believe there was no penetration in this case? Any penetration is enough under the law to charge someone with rape (but you have to have a witness who can testify to it.)

He is a sex offender. If it makes you feel better to call him that, rather than a rapist, so be it.

we do?

Both are the highest level of felony in every state that I can think of. You don't get six months in county for attempted murder.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:What do we know about his family connection (i.e., parents connection to power and money)?

He was in school on scholarship. Not rich, not well connected.

He was a potential Olympian on the Stanford swim team. He was very protected.

I also noticed the judge is a Stanford alum.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I think there's a lot of people sympathizing with Brock, because they've behaved similarly in their past. And to call him a rapist is to call yourself a rapist, and no one wants to think of themselves as a rapist.

There also seems to be a lot of people here who don't want to admit that getting blitzed drunk and unconscious for hours is very dangerous. No one wants to think of themselves that way.

No one has claimed that getting drunk and passing out is good behavior. NO ONE. Doesn't have anything to do with this guy's guilt.

Didn't say he wasn't guilty. NOT ONCE.

[Anonymous]

In 1986, a dean of students at my top 10 college told my parents I was a slut and that they weren't going to punish my ex boyfriend for raping me. 30 years later, nothing's changed.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:What do we know about his family connection (i.e., parents connection to power and money)?

He was in school on scholarship. Not rich, not well connected.

Athletic scholarship. Not necessarily need-based.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I think there's a lot of people sympathizing with Brock, because they've behaved similarly in their past. And to call him a rapist is to call yourself a rapist, and no one wants to think of themselves as a rapist.

There also seems to be a lot of people here who don't want to admit that getting blitzed drunk and unconscious for hours is very dangerous. No one wants to think of themselves that way.

No one has claimed that getting drunk and passing out is good behavior. NO ONE. Doesn't have anything to do with this guy's guilt.

and I didn't say it did.

Every time you post, you excuse the rapist's behavior. You are part of the problem that led this guy to think that this was okay.

not this girl

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It can be very confusing for an 18 or 19 year old boy when he is with a girl and they both been drinking heavily in regards to where the line is...especially if he has no explicit conversations with anyone about the exact parameters of what constitutes consent.

In many cases, you are asking a boy whose judgment is impaired to make judgment calls on the amount of impairment of the girl, something that can be very hard for him to do. A boy can be drunk and not realize the girl is as drunk or drunker than he is.

I would expect a kid who gets into Stanford to realize that he should not finger a woman who is unconscious behind a dumpster.

But he was a DRUNK kid who got into Stanford. Brains and rational thought go out the window when you're that drunk. Women can't trust someone like that to care what they're doing.

True fact: I drank a lot of alcohol in college and did not finger any unconscious women behind a dumpster.

True fact: Not everyone has the same intelligence level, emotional maturity, social experience, impulse control, ability to handle alcohol,etc.

True fact; alcohol doesn't spontaneously turn normal healthy people into rapists

+1

As a young girl, I got drunk plenty of times (with groups of people who were also drunk). No man during these times ever tried to rape me. The time I was sexually violated (I won't call it rape because I don't consider it rape, really) was when I was sleeping in bed with my sober then-boyfriend and he started having sex with me - while I was still sleeping.

Alcohol does not a rapist make.

Based on your experiences, what advice will you give your kids about alcohol, sexual violations, and rape?

Not PP but my discussions with my kids about alcohol will be completely separate from my discussions with them about sexual violations and rape because they are two different animals.

If only life's experiences could be so neatly compartmentalized.

You can roll your eyes into the back of your head if you want. It doesn't change the fact that far too many high school and college-aged students, as well as young adults, are engaging in highly risky behavior. Getting extremely drunk and counting on others to look out for you is incredibly unsafe. The PP related her experiences of being drunk and being with other people who were drunk but fortunately no one took advantage of her. What's wrong with being sober and aware? Too many people commenting here want to be free to do whatever they want and hope that others will be responsible.

There is nothing at all wrong with being sober and aware. What is wrong is coming on a thread where people are condemning a rapist and instead explaining that young women should be sober and aware. That decision on your part to choose to focus on those particular facts in this particular context is what is problematic, because, even if true, you're trivializing the real issue and inappropriately shifting the responsibility to the victim.

Suppose you're walking down the street and you see a toddler playing close to the curb. Suddenly a drunk driver swerves off the road and runs over the toddler killing him. The mother screams in pain. You helpfully wander over and say "Hey, so, this is a great reminder that you should keep toddlers from standing too close to the curb." What you said is 100% true, and you're still an asshole. This is similar.

No, it isn't. Sharing an opinion in a situation like that would be beyond cruel. On this DCUM forum, the victim isn't participating. We're having a discussion about a crime, a terrible situation. Talking about ways women can protect themselves is hardly the same as directly speaking to someone who has just experienced a tragedy.

A) You don't know that the victim is not participating
B) I'm willing to wager that there are at least a dozen victims of similar crimes on this thread, myself included

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Holy. Shit.

https://mobile.twitter.com/laurenduca/status/739505679635992577

Actually, the father is correct.

Both of them were drunk. Both. She was so drunk, she had no idea of anything, and didn't come-to until she was in the hospital, with no recollection. She was black-out drunk. While no one deserves to be raped, she placed herself in a very dangerous state. I do want to know where her friends were, where her sister was, where ANY responsible person was - probably drunk themselves. It would have been a cold day in hell, in college, when I would have left one of my friends (or a perfect stranger) alone, that dangerously drunk.

His son, in his drunken state, assaulted this girl. Very, very wrong. He IS taking responsibility for his actions. What disturbs me, is not only is she NOT taking responsibility for her own stupidity, but she has all the pity in the world. The net result of that is the message that people can get as stupid-drunk as they want and expect NO harm to come of them. That is NOT a message I have EVER given my children, and ever will.

This statement from the victim? “You took away my worth, my privacy, my energy, my time, my intimacy, my confidence, my own voice, until today,” she read in court from her victim impact statement,

What kind of worth does one have when one is so drunk, one can't even function? What kind of confidence? What kind of intimacy?

And this? "I was the wounded antelope of the herd, completely alone and vulnerable, physically unable to fend for myself, and he chose me."

She completely brushes aside her responsibility in becoming a 'wounded antelope'.


The judge did good in this case.

Probably in the minority on this forum but I completely agree with you. And for her to equate her experience with that if someone who is raped by a stranger (i.e. Pulled off the sidewalk without warning and raped with life threatened) trivializes the latter's assault. These crimes are absolutely different.

Rape is rape. I wasn't pulled off a street by a random but I was drugged and carried unconscious up to his dorm room. You think my experience in the aftermath of my rape is different bc I was drinking that night or bc I left my beer unattended with someone I thought was a friend? The only thing that makes my experience different than the violent stranger rape you describe, is that people like you would blame me for thinking I should be able to go out and have a beer w/o getting raped. Actually, people like you would probably also blame a victim of stranger rape for their clothing or the hour they were walking around at night. This woman was so drunk that she passed out unconscious. he was rejected by other more coherent women's that night - he chose her bc she couldn't fight back. Let me repeat, rape is rape.

The key point is that those other women rejected him and he backed off. He was not trying to force himself on anyone. And Emily Doe was not exactly a babe in the woods herself. She willingly left with this guy and she probably would have willingly engaged in sexual acts with him if she had not passed out. But she did pass out and he kept going...an obvious sexual assault.

This was going to be a regrettable night for Emily Doe whether she met up with this guy or not. If he had just backed off and left her alone she STILL would have been passed out behind a dumpster like a skid row bum.

He backed off because the other ones verbally rejected him. Daunted, he just went and found a girl who wasn't in great condition so he could take advantage of her, which he did. Please stop acting like he was some fine gentleman who called on ladies who were otherwise occupied and went about his merry way. He was a rapist who sought a victim and found one.

She was a college grad (or drop out) who had been to plenty of these parties before. I really don't see her as the "wounded antelope". I see him as a drunk, horny guy who jumped at the chance to leave a party with a woman with the purpose of having consensual sex. He didn't drag her out of there, they left together and probably fooled around a bit until she passed out. Instead of stopping he assaulted her.

Rapists generally don't go around parties making their intentions to rape clear to every woman there. But guys looking to hook up with willing women are a bit more obvious. Every woman at that party knew that this guy wanted action. And Emily Doe left with him...she probably was open to some action herself. But that ceased to be the case when she no longer knew what was happening to her.

[Anonymous]

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This was going to be a regrettable night for Emily Doe whether she met up with this guy or not. If he had just backed off and left her alone she STILL would have been passed out behind a dumpster like a skid row bum.

And you know this how? Did she tell you she was planning to pass out behind a dumpster? Do you feel good about yourself for disparaging another human being?

She drank until she passed out. She passed out because she drank. She was going to pass out somewhere. As it turns out, she left a party alone with a 19 year old college kid who had no intention of bringing her back to his dorm room. She may have walked herself behind that dumpster to fool around with him and passed out while they were fooling around, she may have passed out on the sidewalk or in an alleyway or...anywhere. She could have met up with someone a lot scarier and more violent than Brock.

Do you not see that she made choices that were not going to end well for her that night? I am not "disparaging" this woman but she was not doing a good job of looking out for herself and she is responsible for some of the regrettable choices made that night. She did not deserve to get assaulted - nor is her assailant getting away with assaulting her. But she also is responsible for own regrettable actions.

Exactly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there's a lot of people sympathizing with Brock, because they've behaved similarly in their past. And to call him a rapist is to call yourself a rapist, and no one wants to think of themselves as a rapist.

There also seems to be a lot of people here who don't want to admit that getting blitzed drunk and unconscious for hours is very dangerous. No one wants to think of themselves that way.

No one has claimed that getting drunk and passing out is good behavior. NO ONE. Doesn't have anything to do with this guy's guilt.

and I didn't say it did.

Every time you post, you excuse the rapist's behavior. You are part of the problem that led this guy to think that this was okay.

not this girl

me either. I have not excused his behavior in any of my posts

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Holy. Shit.

https://mobile.twitter.com/laurenduca/status/739505679635992577

Actually, the father is correct.

Both of them were drunk. Both. She was so drunk, she had no idea of anything, and didn't come-to until she was in the hospital, with no recollection. She was black-out drunk. While no one deserves to be raped, she placed herself in a very dangerous state. I do want to know where her friends were, where her sister was, where ANY responsible person was - probably drunk themselves. It would have been a cold day in hell, in college, when I would have left one of my friends (or a perfect stranger) alone, that dangerously drunk.

His son, in his drunken state, assaulted this girl. Very, very wrong. He IS taking responsibility for his actions. What disturbs me, is not only is she NOT taking responsibility for her own stupidity, but she has all the pity in the world. The net result of that is the message that people can get as stupid-drunk as they want and expect NO harm to come of them. That is NOT a message I have EVER given my children, and ever will.

This statement from the victim? “You took away my worth, my privacy, my energy, my time, my intimacy, my confidence, my own voice, until today,” she read in court from her victim impact statement,

What kind of worth does one have when one is so drunk, one can't even function? What kind of confidence? What kind of intimacy?

And this? "I was the wounded antelope of the herd, completely alone and vulnerable, physically unable to fend for myself, and he chose me."

She completely brushes aside her responsibility in becoming a 'wounded antelope'.


The judge did good in this case.

Probably in the minority on this forum but I completely agree with you. And for her to equate her experience with that if someone who is raped by a stranger (i.e. Pulled off the sidewalk without warning and raped with life threatened) trivializes the latter's assault. These crimes are absolutely different.

Rape is rape. I wasn't pulled off a street by a random but I was drugged and carried unconscious up to his dorm room. You think my experience in the aftermath of my rape is different bc I was drinking that night or bc I left my beer unattended with someone I thought was a friend? The only thing that makes my experience different than the violent stranger rape you describe, is that people like you would blame me for thinking I should be able to go out and have a beer w/o getting raped. Actually, people like you would probably also blame a victim of stranger rape for their clothing or the hour they were walking around at night. This woman was so drunk that she passed out unconscious. he was rejected by other more coherent women's that night - he chose her bc she couldn't fight back. Let me repeat, rape is rape.

The key point is that those other women rejected him and he backed off. He was not trying to force himself on anyone. And Emily Doe was not exactly a babe in the woods herself. She willingly left with this guy and she probably would have willingly engaged in sexual acts with him if she had not passed out. But she did pass out and he kept going...an obvious sexual assault.

This was going to be a regrettable night for Emily Doe whether she met up with this guy or not. If he had just backed off and left her alone she STILL would have been passed out behind a dumpster like a skid row bum.

Regretting a drunk night is way, way, WAY different than being raped.

She could have been the Virgin Mary and people like you would still find a way to rationalize that it was her fault.

Do you not get that having a drunk night where you remember nothing is allowing other people to take advantage of you if they want? What he did isn't fair, right, or legal. He's a criminal. Why put your trust in a (potential) criminal?

Do you not get that college kids make mistakes and do stupid things? Why do you focus so much on her behavior, rather than the behavior of her rapist? Why is the most important issue to you what she did to deserve what happened to her? Why spend all of your time raking a woman over the coals for being stupid, as if that were the same thing as the man's behavior for being a rapist?

Women don't just get raped when they are drunk. Women get raped when they are sober, too. Rape is the problem, not the behavior of women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Holy. Shit.

https://mobile.twitter.com/laurenduca/status/739505679635992577

Actually, the father is correct.

Both of them were drunk. Both. She was so drunk, she had no idea of anything, and didn't come-to until she was in the hospital, with no recollection. She was black-out drunk. While no one deserves to be raped, she placed herself in a very dangerous state. I do want to know where her friends were, where her sister was, where ANY responsible person was - probably drunk themselves. It would have been a cold day in hell, in college, when I would have left one of my friends (or a perfect stranger) alone, that dangerously drunk.

His son, in his drunken state, assaulted this girl. Very, very wrong. He IS taking responsibility for his actions. What disturbs me, is not only is she NOT taking responsibility for her own stupidity, but she has all the pity in the world. The net result of that is the message that people can get as stupid-drunk as they want and expect NO harm to come of them. That is NOT a message I have EVER given my children, and ever will.

This statement from the victim? “You took away my worth, my privacy, my energy, my time, my intimacy, my confidence, my own voice, until today,” she read in court from her victim impact statement,

What kind of worth does one have when one is so drunk, one can't even function? What kind of confidence? What kind of intimacy?

And this? "I was the wounded antelope of the herd, completely alone and vulnerable, physically unable to fend for myself, and he chose me."

She completely brushes aside her responsibility in becoming a 'wounded antelope'.


The judge did good in this case.

Probably in the minority on this forum but I completely agree with you. And for her to equate her experience with that if someone who is raped by a stranger (i.e. Pulled off the sidewalk without warning and raped with life threatened) trivializes the latter's assault. These crimes are absolutely different.

Rape is rape. I wasn't pulled off a street by a random but I was drugged and carried unconscious up to his dorm room. You think my experience in the aftermath of my rape is different bc I was drinking that night or bc I left my beer unattended with someone I thought was a friend? The only thing that makes my experience different than the violent stranger rape you describe, is that people like you would blame me for thinking I should be able to go out and have a beer w/o getting raped. Actually, people like you would probably also blame a victim of stranger rape for their clothing or the hour they were walking around at night. This woman was so drunk that she passed out unconscious. he was rejected by other more coherent women's that night - he chose her bc she couldn't fight back. Let me repeat, rape is rape.

The key point is that those other women rejected him and he backed off. He was not trying to force himself on anyone. And Emily Doe was not exactly a babe in the woods herself. She willingly left with this guy and she probably would have willingly engaged in sexual acts with him if she had not passed out. But she did pass out and he kept going...an obvious sexual assault.

This was going to be a regrettable night for Emily Doe whether she met up with this guy or not. If he had just backed off and left her alone she STILL would have been passed out behind a dumpster like a skid row bum.

He backed off because the other ones verbally rejected him. Daunted, he just went and found a girl who wasn't in great condition so he could take advantage of her, which he did. Please stop acting like he was some fine gentleman who called on ladies who were otherwise occupied and went about his merry way. He was a rapist who sought a victim and found one.

She was a college grad (or drop out) who had been to plenty of these parties before. I really don't see her as the "wounded antelope". I see him as a drunk, horny guy who jumped at the chance to leave a party with a woman with the purpose of having consensual sex. He didn't drag her out of there, they left together and probably fooled around a bit until she passed out. Instead of stopping he assaulted her.

Rapists generally don't go around parties making their intentions to rape clear to every woman there. But guys looking to hook up with willing women are a bit more obvious. Every woman at that party knew that this guy wanted action. And Emily Doe left with him...she probably was open to some action herself. But that ceased to be the case when she no longer knew what was happening to her.

see there is no way you can know this. we DON"T KNOW how they ended up behind the dumpster.

[Anonymous]

^Maybe one day Brock's dad will understand the difference between consensual "action" and passed out assault.