Accommodation Nation

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I work as an attorney and it’s shocking (and getting worse every year) how many new employees come in that don’t seem to understand that when I say I need something by noon on Thursday, that isn’t a guideline or a suggestion or a wish. I’m sure I’m not very popular with the young ones. They either figure it out after the first couple assignments or they find other employment.

I’m an attorney too and I’m seeing younger employees come in with that mindset too. Constant requests for time off, constant sick days, not planning ahead, not taking initiative, disregarding instructions. I don’t know if it’s the pandemic, the economy, accommodations, helicopter parenting, or some combination of everything.

More attorneys sharing parenting responsibilities across gender lines, worse childcare options, and fewer people thinking their employers will love them back for making their entire life work.

In the law firm world, the client does not care about those things. Especially not at the rates we charge. If that’s not for you, totally understand. But if you want big law pay, you’ll have to get up to speed or be pushed out. When we tell a client we will get them something by a deadline, we do it barring truly extenuating circumstances. And if you are a litigator, the deadlines are truly firm and imposed by the court/the statute.

I say this as an attorney (one of maybe the majority of this board), but maybe you should staff cases/deals better? Your employees are human beings with human needs. And they have legal entitlement to things like paid sick leave, parental leave, FMLA, etc. You need to structure your staffing to be able to accommodate these inevitabilities, especially when so many firms makes (bullshit) promises about supporting working parents and valuing employee health and wellbeing.

Being a big law attorney is a demanding job. It’s not the kind of job for someone who needs a soft workplace. If we have a filing deadline, we have to get it done whether your kid is sick or not. And no we don’t just keep extra staff on hand just in case. If you let a senior attorney down enough times they will stop bringing work to you. Again, it’s not for everyone.

Exactly. Nobody who has ever had to have extra time to accomplish tasks is cut out for big law. Acknowledge the disability and that it isn't compatible with all jobs. Or just teach the kids how to handle their time and cut out the disability completely.

Extended time big law senior associate checking in! We do fine!

And I’m sure you accept that sometimes you have to work nights and weekends and that’s just how it goes.

I sure do! Working late and longer than most people is how I'm successful in biglaw. That has nothing to do with whether I'm unable to do my job because I got extended time on exams in school.

I completely agree and would have no trouble with someone like this at our firm who met deadlines. We were objecting to a poster who said they “never” in their entire career had to meet timed deadlines.

I don't think they said they never had to meet timed deadlines. I think they said they didn't have deadlines that were short that it approximated a timed test. Virtually all substantive assignments, in my experience, have multi-day lead time.

There are very, very few areas of the law where you can just hole up and write a brief for days with no interaction. Eventually there are questions and matters you need to be able to handle quickly. Even appellate lawyers need to think quickly at oral argument (which is basically a test).

Holing up and writing a brief for multiple days isn’t remotely what I described. Oral arguments aren’t like timed exams, but also most lawyers suck at them, including big law partners. And people don’t just need extended time for slow processing speed. Dyslexics like David Boies and Elizabeth Cabraser excel at oral argument, which doesn’t involve reading for them, but are slow readers and writers.

For a lawyer, you're pretty weak at making convincing arguments. You've given no reason for timed tests and have argued why they don't relate to the real world, but also can't articulate why we still need them, just that we shouldn't do away with them. Why?

I'm fine doing away with speeded tests. I've said that earlier. I'm not taking a position on whether timed tests should be done away with because that's not the purpose of this discussion. This discussion is about whether students who are receiving accommodations on timed exams as they currently exist can be successful in stressful, elite work environments.

There is no way that you were ever hired by Big Law with these writing skills. Also, you are hilarious if you think BigLaw deadlines have a several day lead in. I can't tell you how many last minute all nighters I pulled. I generally didn't even know what I had to do that day until around 5pm as the deadlines came late and hard. You are not qualified to give advice.

If you're pulling an all nighter to meet a deadline, it's not like a timed exam..................

And don't worry, I was on law review (made it via blind reviewed writing competition only), published my note reviewed blind (one of 10ish at my T14), got honors in legal writing (top 3 in the class), did a federal clerkship, have worked at two biglaw firms, and am a senior associate.

If I'm told at 5pm that I need to write a 10 page brief by morning, it very much is like a timed exam. This happened many times. Litigation. If we found something, we weren't waiting to file. We would jump. Higher than we thought possible. Several times, I would actually have to be in NYC by morning also in order to have my own eyes on the final product being filed. This is why clients paid so much.

Yes, this is a realistic situation. But you have *checks notes* 16 hours to write that brief. That’s a stressful assignment, absolutely. But that’s not the 45 min, 90 min, or 4 hour exam time limit. It’s more akin to a 24 hour take home, where you don’t get extended time as an accommodation. This is my point.

Briefs don't just get written like an essay. You must set many internal deadlines in order to get a brief written. Do you actually have any idea how law works? First I would arrange my info, then create an outline, then internal deadlines for each section that I would send in chunks to be reviewed, then time for checking all the citations, then creating appendices and getting things into the proper format. Then review. Then sit and wait for client comments. Then probably 20 minutes to incorporate any changes. It isn't a single 16 hour assignment. It is about 30 30 minute assignments that need to be done in a row. Please do not send anyone to help who needed extra time.

Be sure to let your colleagues know you refuse to participate in any joint defense group with David Boies.

Why do you keep bringing up Boies? He didn’t get extra time on tests, yet he succeeded anyway.

“Boies learned to compensate for his disability by developing outstanding powers of concentration and a keen memory.”

“The way Boies processes written information is by first skimming a text to pick out the salient points. Then, by slowing down and focusing exclusively on these, he is able to analyze them critically and grasp the essence of the text. It is this unique ability that enables Boies to handle the large volume of reading required for his work, and that helped him excel in college and law school, despite his poor performance on timed tests.”

https://dyslexia.yale.edu/story/david-boies/

Because he's almost universally recognized as one of the best litigators of the modern day, he struggled in school, and continues to struggle to read quickly to this day. The ADA and IDEA didn't exist when he was a kid because he's too old. He has obvious deficits and extraordinary strengths. You think people who need accommodations (for which he would have qualified had been born a few decades later) would mean he couldn't possibly be a great lawyer.

Feel free to check out younger folks on the success stories page who were identified at earlier ages.

Yet he didn’t need extra time to succeed. You are no Boies.

I never said I was David Boies? You're just being an a**hole.

If David Boies got accommodations (to which he would be entitled) would you refuse to work with him? There are plenty of successful doctors, lawyers, and business executives with disabilities that impose real deficits. As the ADA and IDEA get older, more have received accommodations and special education services. If they are competent professionals, they are competent professionals.

So your shining example is a man who overcame his disability to get where he is and now you want him to be the posterboy for people who need accommodations? Something he didn’t use or need to get where he is?

No need to repeat myself, but I'll do it again. He's an example of a person with serious deficits in particular areas, including in the present (he can't read notes passed to him in hearings with fluency), who manages to be one of the greatest litigators of all time. He's too old to have gotten accommodations in school but would've gotten them today. Had he gotten accommodations, he should not be looked down upon a lesser lawyer.

There are other litigators of a younger generation who have been getting accommodations from a young age because of the ADA and IDEA. Lawyers with the same brilliance at Boies. They should not be discounted because they have deficits in a particular area when they can have compensatory levels of brilliance that make them uniquely outstanding.

My guess is Bois learned to compensate by leaning on associates. No, I would never want an attorney who literally cannot read (??) handling my matters. They absolutely should be discounted. Just like I don’t want a blind surgeon.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:My experience coming from a top private is that the top kids don't have academic accommodations unless they are legit and have been in place since elementary school for things like dyslexia or severe ADHD. The ones beneath the top20% scramble to get accommodations in place for anxiety in 10th/11th grade. However, by-in-large this doesn't work to catapult them into the top20s and they end up at colleges ranked above below the top20. And then their parents scramble to get accommodations in place in college--both for the classroom and for housing. A number of these parents I know contacted housing to get their kids private rooms, center-of-campus dorms, etc.

Meanwhile the kids aren't confident and they become increasingly anxious. Because all this hand holding and heavy-intervening by their parents doesn't go missed by the kids themselves. It tells them VERY loud and clearly: "We don't believe in you. You're not competent. We have to step in and help you. You're not like your peers. You have problems" Most suffer from imposter syndrome and their anxiety increases.

So really, it's not great. Stay in your own lane and don't look at these families or kids. It's not worth stressing over because it's nothing to envy.

as a professional who works with kids, i disagree completely with the second part of this. mental health issues and loss of confidence and negative self concept come when kids are not diagnosed and are being told they're not trying and it's their fault.

Agree with you 100% when the problems are legit. But the entire point is that the "anxiety" diagnosis is used by the parents to get extra time.
Because they believe that if the kid is not at the top of the class then there must be a diagnosis. Or because the kid's abilities do not align with the parent's aspirations for them. If these kids have debilitating anxiety to the degree that they can't take an exam beginning in 10th grade it's by-in-large because their parents made them anxious.

And invariably these kids don’t actually get treated in line with such purportedly severe anxiety requires. If they are not taking an SSRI and doing CBT/ACT then the parents are really just faking it essentially. Because if you have resources and your kid has a legit mental health issue it is pretty easy to research and find the gold star treatments, which are much better established and effective for anxiety than almost anything else in the DSM. And spoiler, none of these treatments involves giving a pass so a kid doesn’t have to face something anxiety provoking like a timed test.

THIS. I have a kid in my 3rd grade class this year with a 504 for "anxiety." It's literally just his parents wanting him to have "flexible seating" (Not having to stay at his desk, which he NEVER does) and so they can make excuses for his inappropriate behavior (constantly fidgeting/touching things on my desk or classmates desks that don't belong to him/using apps on his chromebook he's not allowed to/constant whining and complaining, blurting things out and not raising his hand, etc.) He gets good grades so it's not affecting him academically his is just SUPER annoying and I get so tired of dealing with him every single day. I wish his parents would just parent him, set some boundaries and hold some limits. It's clear he's never met a hard limit in his life.

God you are awful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Basketball analogy. I have bad knees, lack coordination, and am under six feet. Do I get a step-stool and 10 seconds extar with no interference from other players when I'm under the net?

You can tell that the DCUM posters who try to use sports analogies - don't play any sports. 🤣

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Basketball analogy. I have bad knees, lack coordination, and am under six feet. Do I get a step-stool and 10 seconds extar with no interference from other players when I'm under the net?

Here is how the Supreme Court handles questions of disability accommodations in athletic events for athletes.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/532/661/

PGA Tour v. Martin, if you're curious. Golfer wanted a golf cart as an accommodation for his disability. He won.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I work as an attorney and it’s shocking (and getting worse every year) how many new employees come in that don’t seem to understand that when I say I need something by noon on Thursday, that isn’t a guideline or a suggestion or a wish. I’m sure I’m not very popular with the young ones. They either figure it out after the first couple assignments or they find other employment.

I’m an attorney too and I’m seeing younger employees come in with that mindset too. Constant requests for time off, constant sick days, not planning ahead, not taking initiative, disregarding instructions. I don’t know if it’s the pandemic, the economy, accommodations, helicopter parenting, or some combination of everything.

More attorneys sharing parenting responsibilities across gender lines, worse childcare options, and fewer people thinking their employers will love them back for making their entire life work.

In the law firm world, the client does not care about those things. Especially not at the rates we charge. If that’s not for you, totally understand. But if you want big law pay, you’ll have to get up to speed or be pushed out. When we tell a client we will get them something by a deadline, we do it barring truly extenuating circumstances. And if you are a litigator, the deadlines are truly firm and imposed by the court/the statute.

I say this as an attorney (one of maybe the majority of this board), but maybe you should staff cases/deals better? Your employees are human beings with human needs. And they have legal entitlement to things like paid sick leave, parental leave, FMLA, etc. You need to structure your staffing to be able to accommodate these inevitabilities, especially when so many firms makes (bullshit) promises about supporting working parents and valuing employee health and wellbeing.

Being a big law attorney is a demanding job. It’s not the kind of job for someone who needs a soft workplace. If we have a filing deadline, we have to get it done whether your kid is sick or not. And no we don’t just keep extra staff on hand just in case. If you let a senior attorney down enough times they will stop bringing work to you. Again, it’s not for everyone.

Exactly. Nobody who has ever had to have extra time to accomplish tasks is cut out for big law. Acknowledge the disability and that it isn't compatible with all jobs. Or just teach the kids how to handle their time and cut out the disability completely.

Extended time big law senior associate checking in! We do fine!

And I’m sure you accept that sometimes you have to work nights and weekends and that’s just how it goes.

I sure do! Working late and longer than most people is how I'm successful in biglaw. That has nothing to do with whether I'm unable to do my job because I got extended time on exams in school.

I completely agree and would have no trouble with someone like this at our firm who met deadlines. We were objecting to a poster who said they “never” in their entire career had to meet timed deadlines.

I don't think they said they never had to meet timed deadlines. I think they said they didn't have deadlines that were short that it approximated a timed test. Virtually all substantive assignments, in my experience, have multi-day lead time.

There are very, very few areas of the law where you can just hole up and write a brief for days with no interaction. Eventually there are questions and matters you need to be able to handle quickly. Even appellate lawyers need to think quickly at oral argument (which is basically a test).

Holing up and writing a brief for multiple days isn’t remotely what I described. Oral arguments aren’t like timed exams, but also most lawyers suck at them, including big law partners. And people don’t just need extended time for slow processing speed. Dyslexics like David Boies and Elizabeth Cabraser excel at oral argument, which doesn’t involve reading for them, but are slow readers and writers.

For a lawyer, you're pretty weak at making convincing arguments. You've given no reason for timed tests and have argued why they don't relate to the real world, but also can't articulate why we still need them, just that we shouldn't do away with them. Why?

I'm fine doing away with speeded tests. I've said that earlier. I'm not taking a position on whether timed tests should be done away with because that's not the purpose of this discussion. This discussion is about whether students who are receiving accommodations on timed exams as they currently exist can be successful in stressful, elite work environments.

There is no way that you were ever hired by Big Law with these writing skills. Also, you are hilarious if you think BigLaw deadlines have a several day lead in. I can't tell you how many last minute all nighters I pulled. I generally didn't even know what I had to do that day until around 5pm as the deadlines came late and hard. You are not qualified to give advice.

If you're pulling an all nighter to meet a deadline, it's not like a timed exam..................

And don't worry, I was on law review (made it via blind reviewed writing competition only), published my note reviewed blind (one of 10ish at my T14), got honors in legal writing (top 3 in the class), did a federal clerkship, have worked at two biglaw firms, and am a senior associate.

If I'm told at 5pm that I need to write a 10 page brief by morning, it very much is like a timed exam. This happened many times. Litigation. If we found something, we weren't waiting to file. We would jump. Higher than we thought possible. Several times, I would actually have to be in NYC by morning also in order to have my own eyes on the final product being filed. This is why clients paid so much.

Yes, this is a realistic situation. But you have *checks notes* 16 hours to write that brief. That’s a stressful assignment, absolutely. But that’s not the 45 min, 90 min, or 4 hour exam time limit. It’s more akin to a 24 hour take home, where you don’t get extended time as an accommodation. This is my point.

Briefs don't just get written like an essay. You must set many internal deadlines in order to get a brief written. Do you actually have any idea how law works? First I would arrange my info, then create an outline, then internal deadlines for each section that I would send in chunks to be reviewed, then time for checking all the citations, then creating appendices and getting things into the proper format. Then review. Then sit and wait for client comments. Then probably 20 minutes to incorporate any changes. It isn't a single 16 hour assignment. It is about 30 30 minute assignments that need to be done in a row. Please do not send anyone to help who needed extra time.

Having ADHD can actually be a huge bonus in getting a brief written -- hyperfocus, multitaksing, etc. This has nothhing to do with children in school and SAT-type testing of knowledge.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:My freshman Ivy child has two roommates and both have extra time. They each are given 2-3 days to take exams that the rest of the kids are given 2-3 hours to complete. Both attended private schools. Both are very bright and very wealthy. Both have the extra time for "anxiety."

I'd be pissed if I was a professor or a person who had a kid with dyslexia or significant ADHD or a learning difference. It's apparently a huge difficulty to get these exams proctored, especially if the student also needs a quiet study pod because there are not enough pods for the onslaught of students who now require them.

I have no idea how this generation of kids will cope in jobs with deadlines and noise and without parents to run interference. But I guess the workforce will adapt. Maybe everyone will get a week and a soundproof pod to write an email.

Easy. You find a job that doesn’t have deadlines. There are lots of jobs like that out there.

When was the last time you sat for a timed test at your job? The lack of understanding here is unreal.

Most times your boss tells you "I need this today" it doesn't mean you get to nitpick and say "well, if you gave Legal 3 days to respond instead of 5, I could turn it in tomorrow, right? My reasonable accommodation says I get more time!"

How often does your boss say, “I need you answer three unrelated questions in 500 words each concerning topics discussed over the last 4 months in exactly 90 minutes”?

Since the PP seems to think that all jobs have the same requirements, my guess is that they’ve never been employed.

Let's see: I've run my own business, worked as a cashier, worked as a swimming lessons instructor, freelanced as a writer, worked as a fed, worked at a nonprofit organization, taught elementary school, taught middle school, drove a van, clerked for a federal judge, and worked for two biglaw firms (one of which I'm still employed by). My jobs have run the gamut. I've had one work assignment in my life that came close to approximating a timed exam.

Sounds like you have trouble keeping a job. This tracks.

Yeah, I had to work through high school, undergrad, and law school. Guess I'm a loser.

I can’t speak to whether or not you’re a loser, but you’re obviously not nearly as bright as you think you are. You have been engaging with more than one person in this thread and your inability to grasp an extremely simple point that multiple folks have tried to explain to you is embarrassing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I work as an attorney and it’s shocking (and getting worse every year) how many new employees come in that don’t seem to understand that when I say I need something by noon on Thursday, that isn’t a guideline or a suggestion or a wish. I’m sure I’m not very popular with the young ones. They either figure it out after the first couple assignments or they find other employment.

I’m an attorney too and I’m seeing younger employees come in with that mindset too. Constant requests for time off, constant sick days, not planning ahead, not taking initiative, disregarding instructions. I don’t know if it’s the pandemic, the economy, accommodations, helicopter parenting, or some combination of everything.

More attorneys sharing parenting responsibilities across gender lines, worse childcare options, and fewer people thinking their employers will love them back for making their entire life work.

In the law firm world, the client does not care about those things. Especially not at the rates we charge. If that’s not for you, totally understand. But if you want big law pay, you’ll have to get up to speed or be pushed out. When we tell a client we will get them something by a deadline, we do it barring truly extenuating circumstances. And if you are a litigator, the deadlines are truly firm and imposed by the court/the statute.

I say this as an attorney (one of maybe the majority of this board), but maybe you should staff cases/deals better? Your employees are human beings with human needs. And they have legal entitlement to things like paid sick leave, parental leave, FMLA, etc. You need to structure your staffing to be able to accommodate these inevitabilities, especially when so many firms makes (bullshit) promises about supporting working parents and valuing employee health and wellbeing.

Being a big law attorney is a demanding job. It’s not the kind of job for someone who needs a soft workplace. If we have a filing deadline, we have to get it done whether your kid is sick or not. And no we don’t just keep extra staff on hand just in case. If you let a senior attorney down enough times they will stop bringing work to you. Again, it’s not for everyone.

Exactly. Nobody who has ever had to have extra time to accomplish tasks is cut out for big law. Acknowledge the disability and that it isn't compatible with all jobs. Or just teach the kids how to handle their time and cut out the disability completely.

Extended time big law senior associate checking in! We do fine!

If you’re doing fine at your big law job, that simply means you didn’t actually NEED extended time in high school and college. Duh.

[Anonymous]

I know a lot of good lawyers who are dyslexic. I know none who had extra time on their tests. Mind you, that wasn’t a concept back in my day. But the odd frequent Boise referencer seems to be conflating the concepts of disabilities and accommodations. Not all accommodations actually help the problem. Extra time would rarely.

[Anonymous]

They aren’t “gaming” and “abusing” the system.

They can afford the testing.

Most people have no insurance or bad insurance. Most of the people who do these assessments without a 12 month wait list don’t take insurance at all.

So the people who get tested are people who can pay $4,000 out of pocket to get an evaluation.

The answer isn’t a class war, it’s a health care issue. Fix our healthcare system.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:My freshman Ivy child has two roommates and both have extra time. They each are given 2-3 days to take exams that the rest of the kids are given 2-3 hours to complete. Both attended private schools. Both are very bright and very wealthy. Both have the extra time for "anxiety."

I'd be pissed if I was a professor or a person who had a kid with dyslexia or significant ADHD or a learning difference. It's apparently a huge difficulty to get these exams proctored, especially if the student also needs a quiet study pod because there are not enough pods for the onslaught of students who now require them.

I have no idea how this generation of kids will cope in jobs with deadlines and noise and without parents to run interference. But I guess the workforce will adapt. Maybe everyone will get a week and a soundproof pod to write an email.

Easy. You find a job that doesn’t have deadlines. There are lots of jobs like that out there.

When was the last time you sat for a timed test at your job? The lack of understanding here is unreal.

Most times your boss tells you "I need this today" it doesn't mean you get to nitpick and say "well, if you gave Legal 3 days to respond instead of 5, I could turn it in tomorrow, right? My reasonable accommodation says I get more time!"

How often does your boss say, “I need you answer three unrelated questions in 500 words each concerning topics discussed over the last 4 months in exactly 90 minutes”?

Since the PP seems to think that all jobs have the same requirements, my guess is that they’ve never been employed.

Let's see: I've run my own business, worked as a cashier, worked as a swimming lessons instructor, freelanced as a writer, worked as a fed, worked at a nonprofit organization, taught elementary school, taught middle school, drove a van, clerked for a federal judge, and worked for two biglaw firms (one of which I'm still employed by). My jobs have run the gamut. I've had one work assignment in my life that came close to approximating a timed exam.

Sounds like you have trouble keeping a job. This tracks.

Yeah, I had to work through high school, undergrad, and law school. Guess I'm a loser.

I can’t speak to whether or not you’re a loser, but you’re obviously not nearly as bright as you think you are. You have been engaging with more than one person in this thread and your inability to grasp an extremely simple point that multiple folks have tried to explain to you is embarrassing.

Dude, let it go. You two just disagree on something. No need for all the personal attacks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I work as an attorney and it’s shocking (and getting worse every year) how many new employees come in that don’t seem to understand that when I say I need something by noon on Thursday, that isn’t a guideline or a suggestion or a wish. I’m sure I’m not very popular with the young ones. They either figure it out after the first couple assignments or they find other employment.

I’m an attorney too and I’m seeing younger employees come in with that mindset too. Constant requests for time off, constant sick days, not planning ahead, not taking initiative, disregarding instructions. I don’t know if it’s the pandemic, the economy, accommodations, helicopter parenting, or some combination of everything.

More attorneys sharing parenting responsibilities across gender lines, worse childcare options, and fewer people thinking their employers will love them back for making their entire life work.

In the law firm world, the client does not care about those things. Especially not at the rates we charge. If that’s not for you, totally understand. But if you want big law pay, you’ll have to get up to speed or be pushed out. When we tell a client we will get them something by a deadline, we do it barring truly extenuating circumstances. And if you are a litigator, the deadlines are truly firm and imposed by the court/the statute.

I say this as an attorney (one of maybe the majority of this board), but maybe you should staff cases/deals better? Your employees are human beings with human needs. And they have legal entitlement to things like paid sick leave, parental leave, FMLA, etc. You need to structure your staffing to be able to accommodate these inevitabilities, especially when so many firms makes (bullshit) promises about supporting working parents and valuing employee health and wellbeing.

Being a big law attorney is a demanding job. It’s not the kind of job for someone who needs a soft workplace. If we have a filing deadline, we have to get it done whether your kid is sick or not. And no we don’t just keep extra staff on hand just in case. If you let a senior attorney down enough times they will stop bringing work to you. Again, it’s not for everyone.

Exactly. Nobody who has ever had to have extra time to accomplish tasks is cut out for big law. Acknowledge the disability and that it isn't compatible with all jobs. Or just teach the kids how to handle their time and cut out the disability completely.

Extended time big law senior associate checking in! We do fine!

If you’re doing fine at your big law job, that simply means you didn’t actually NEED extended time in high school and college. Duh.

Alternatively, it could mean that timed tests aren't a great metric of whether people with certain disabilities can be good biglaw associates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They aren’t “gaming” and “abusing” the system.

They can afford the testing.

Most people have no insurance or bad insurance. Most of the people who do these assessments without a 12 month wait list don’t take insurance at all.

So the people who get tested are people who can pay $4,000 out of pocket to get an evaluation.

The answer isn’t a class war, it’s a health care issue. Fix our healthcare system.

Cheaper and easier is to just scrap timed tests.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I work as an attorney and it’s shocking (and getting worse every year) how many new employees come in that don’t seem to understand that when I say I need something by noon on Thursday, that isn’t a guideline or a suggestion or a wish. I’m sure I’m not very popular with the young ones. They either figure it out after the first couple assignments or they find other employment.

I’m an attorney too and I’m seeing younger employees come in with that mindset too. Constant requests for time off, constant sick days, not planning ahead, not taking initiative, disregarding instructions. I don’t know if it’s the pandemic, the economy, accommodations, helicopter parenting, or some combination of everything.

More attorneys sharing parenting responsibilities across gender lines, worse childcare options, and fewer people thinking their employers will love them back for making their entire life work.

In the law firm world, the client does not care about those things. Especially not at the rates we charge. If that’s not for you, totally understand. But if you want big law pay, you’ll have to get up to speed or be pushed out. When we tell a client we will get them something by a deadline, we do it barring truly extenuating circumstances. And if you are a litigator, the deadlines are truly firm and imposed by the court/the statute.

I say this as an attorney (one of maybe the majority of this board), but maybe you should staff cases/deals better? Your employees are human beings with human needs. And they have legal entitlement to things like paid sick leave, parental leave, FMLA, etc. You need to structure your staffing to be able to accommodate these inevitabilities, especially when so many firms makes (bullshit) promises about supporting working parents and valuing employee health and wellbeing.

Being a big law attorney is a demanding job. It’s not the kind of job for someone who needs a soft workplace. If we have a filing deadline, we have to get it done whether your kid is sick or not. And no we don’t just keep extra staff on hand just in case. If you let a senior attorney down enough times they will stop bringing work to you. Again, it’s not for everyone.

Exactly. Nobody who has ever had to have extra time to accomplish tasks is cut out for big law. Acknowledge the disability and that it isn't compatible with all jobs. Or just teach the kids how to handle their time and cut out the disability completely.

Extended time big law senior associate checking in! We do fine!

If you’re doing fine at your big law job, that simply means you didn’t actually NEED extended time in high school and college. Duh.

Alternatively, it could mean that timed tests aren't a great metric of whether people with certain disabilities can be good biglaw associates.

A timed test in college should be easy compared to the many, many challenging and time sensitive tasks asked of higher level employees- not just Big Law. Would you want a surgeon operating on you that needed time accommodations in order to pass med schools exams? Or got them except from oral board exams and given some “alternative” exam because they have a low processing speed?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I work as an attorney and it’s shocking (and getting worse every year) how many new employees come in that don’t seem to understand that when I say I need something by noon on Thursday, that isn’t a guideline or a suggestion or a wish. I’m sure I’m not very popular with the young ones. They either figure it out after the first couple assignments or they find other employment.

I’m an attorney too and I’m seeing younger employees come in with that mindset too. Constant requests for time off, constant sick days, not planning ahead, not taking initiative, disregarding instructions. I don’t know if it’s the pandemic, the economy, accommodations, helicopter parenting, or some combination of everything.

More attorneys sharing parenting responsibilities across gender lines, worse childcare options, and fewer people thinking their employers will love them back for making their entire life work.

In the law firm world, the client does not care about those things. Especially not at the rates we charge. If that’s not for you, totally understand. But if you want big law pay, you’ll have to get up to speed or be pushed out. When we tell a client we will get them something by a deadline, we do it barring truly extenuating circumstances. And if you are a litigator, the deadlines are truly firm and imposed by the court/the statute.

I say this as an attorney (one of maybe the majority of this board), but maybe you should staff cases/deals better? Your employees are human beings with human needs. And they have legal entitlement to things like paid sick leave, parental leave, FMLA, etc. You need to structure your staffing to be able to accommodate these inevitabilities, especially when so many firms makes (bullshit) promises about supporting working parents and valuing employee health and wellbeing.

Being a big law attorney is a demanding job. It’s not the kind of job for someone who needs a soft workplace. If we have a filing deadline, we have to get it done whether your kid is sick or not. And no we don’t just keep extra staff on hand just in case. If you let a senior attorney down enough times they will stop bringing work to you. Again, it’s not for everyone.

Exactly. Nobody who has ever had to have extra time to accomplish tasks is cut out for big law. Acknowledge the disability and that it isn't compatible with all jobs. Or just teach the kids how to handle their time and cut out the disability completely.

Extended time big law senior associate checking in! We do fine!

If you’re doing fine at your big law job, that simply means you didn’t actually NEED extended time in high school and college. Duh.

Alternatively, it could mean that timed tests aren't a great metric of whether people with certain disabilities can be good biglaw associates.

A timed test in college should be easy compared to the many, many challenging and time sensitive tasks asked of higher level employees- not just Big Law. Would you want a surgeon operating on you that needed time accommodations in order to pass med schools exams? Or got them except from oral board exams and given some “alternative” exam because they have a low processing speed?

No one gets exempted from exams. I'm sure I've had surgeons who received extended time on exams. I don't care. A surgeon doesn't need to read quickly to perform a skilled surgery.

https://dyslexia.yale.edu/story/blake-charlton-m-d/

Look at this dyslexic cardiologist who got extra time on the SATs. The horror!

[Anonymous]

As a parent of a kid with LDs, this thread surely did not disappoint. Same old tropes about kids that need extra time. For what it is worth, my kid is at an excellent public college. She gets extra time on tests but not assignments and that works out just fine for her. She is dyslexic and dysgraphic, so her extra time is used making sure she actually understands what she read in the questions and that her answers (which are harder to formulate because of dysgraphia) make sense, not for whatever magic thing you all think extra time is getting her. And she's not getting a 4.0 so your lucky neurotypical kids should not feel threatened.

Those worried about careers for kids that used extra time should know they largely self-select out of inappropriate careers because the demands are too taxing with their disabilities. I've already seen it in my kid. It's kind of sad, but it does not make sense to kill yourself trying to get a career that will also be a huge drain on your capacity for years to come. She chose something that fit with her strengths (like I hope most kids, with or without disabilities do).

I do not at all feel like my kid is "cheating." She has worked twice as hard as most kids since elementary school (well, before but she was not formally diagnosed then). She went through. years of speech therapy, occupational therapy, educational therapy, Orton-Gillingham tutoring, vision therapy, etc. while other kids were having fun playing sports or socializing. It was isolating and exhausting and took its toll own her confidence. It is still embarrassing (and a pain in the neck) to have to go to the disability center for tests. It can be stressful when professors fight you or forget to send over the test to the center, etc.

Do you see the cost of that extra half time for testing? Trust me, it's not worth it and she is not getting some great advantage considering the "cost."