I’m a liberal democrat horrified by the current Dr Seuss drama and normalization of censorship

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s funny, none of the whiners in here are defending the actual material.

I am. And I did. IMO it's not racist. Period.

Does that look racist to you?

Yes. I think they should recolor it. That's my opinion and I don't have another.

These are not popular books. The publisher made the practical decision, rather than alter the art.

Don't care. It took you guys 30 effin pages to let me say my piece. You accused people of being racists or GOP shills dozens of times. Then you come back and give me a generic answer about publishing that was also mentioned dozens of times.

And that's what antiracism really is. Good luck with that. You need to self reflect too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“ a)I want the right to complain about something without my motives being questioned each and every time I make any type of complaint.
b) I want some consensus or rational standard for what is racist and what is not because we sure as hell don't have it now.

The alternative is we talk this through, somehow. But that doesn't happen anymore, anywhere. And if people think they are right and everyone else is wrong, so shove it, don't be so surprised next time someone shoves back.“

You sure don’t like free speech. Maybe start with understanding what that means. Expect pushback, expect people to question your motives. Expect people to ask you why you don’t think something is racist if you loudly protest that it isn’t. Seriously. Listen to yourself. You want consensus? Geez. Not gonna happen. So many mental gymnastics because you can’t admit that maybe you were blind.

Seriously, you are full of it. NOBODY was interested in a serious discussion on this thread. And nowhere else too. OF COURSE I expect pushback. And the way shove, you'll get a harder pushback next time. I told you what I want, and still think I didn't mean it. That's your blindness, which you can't admit yourself either. As long as you do that, people will do it to you, worse and worse each time. Where does end? None of you seem to have thought about that. Time for you to self reflect.

You don’t seem to understand what I wrote. You said you want to complain without anyone questioning your motives. That’s not how free speech works. You want a consensus on what racism means, also not how freedom of thought works. The books have really questionable and racist content in them, if you’ve even looked. If you have and don’t see it, expect a lot of people to disagree.

I did look. The point is that anyone who does question it gets called racist or otherwise doing something dufferent, not given an explanation. Read this thread if you think you are doing something different. If that's how you choose to use your free speech that's up to you of course. Good for you. You struck a blow against racism. Yeah, right.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“ a)I want the right to complain about something without my motives being questioned each and every time I make any type of complaint.
b) I want some consensus or rational standard for what is racist and what is not because we sure as hell don't have it now.

The alternative is we talk this through, somehow. But that doesn't happen anymore, anywhere. And if people think they are right and everyone else is wrong, so shove it, don't be so surprised next time someone shoves back.“

You sure don’t like free speech. Maybe start with understanding what that means. Expect pushback, expect people to question your motives. Expect people to ask you why you don’t think something is racist if you loudly protest that it isn’t. Seriously. Listen to yourself. You want consensus? Geez. Not gonna happen. So many mental gymnastics because you can’t admit that maybe you were blind.

Seriously, you are full of it. NOBODY was interested in a serious discussion on this thread. And nowhere else too. OF COURSE I expect pushback. And the way shove, you'll get a harder pushback next time. I told you what I want, and still think I didn't mean it. That's your blindness, which you can't admit yourself either. As long as you do that, people will do it to you, worse and worse each time. Where does end? None of you seem to have thought about that. Time for you to self reflect.

You don’t seem to understand what I wrote. You said you want to complain without anyone questioning your motives. That’s not how free speech works. You want a consensus on what racism means, also not how freedom of thought works. The books have really questionable and racist content in them, if you’ve even looked. If you have and don’t see it, expect a lot of people to disagree.

I did look. The point is that anyone who does question it gets called racist or otherwise doing something dufferent, not given an explanation. Read this thread if you think you are doing something different. If that's how you choose to use your free speech that's up to you of course. Good for you. You struck a blow against racism. Yeah, right.

So you want a substantive discussion about the content in question? Imagine you were an Asian mother reading the book to an an Asian child. Would you find it hurtful? I would. That’s how I know it’s not a bad decision to pull the books.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:a) I want the right to complain about something without my motives being questioned each and every time I make any type of complaint.
b) I want some consensus or rational standard for what is racist and what is not because we sure as hell don't have it now.

The alternative is we talk this through, somehow. But that doesn't happen anymore, anywhere. And if people think they are right and everyone else is wrong, so shove it, don't be so surprised next time someone shoves back.

1) You have the right to complain about whatever you want. You do not have the right to do so without your motives being questioned. In the same way that if you shouted a racist comment at a coworker, the government isn’t going to come get you, but you will face consequences.

2) Hon. HON. If you had bothered to read the press about this, the publisher (a private enterprise) met with multiple groups (I’m guessing Asian American groups and Black people) who probably said something like, “These stereotypes and racist images are harmful to our children and their sense of pride in who they are. We find this hurtful both on a personal level and it’s something that’s harming society.”

Why do you need “consensus” to know what’s racist? Stereotypes are pretty generally acknowledged to be racist. They’re not shouting N-word or saying that Black people are inferior and would be better off as slaves again racist, but they’re low-key racist. Can you at least acknowledge that? Can you acknowledge that if someone who is Black or Asian is hurt by words or actions that would should probably take their word for it?

[Anonymous]

“Regarding "If I Ran the Zoo," the study points out another example of Orientalism and White supremacy.

"The three (and only three) Asian characters who are not wearing conical hats are carrying a White male on their heads in 'If I Ran the Zoo.' The White male is not only on top of, and being carried by, these Asian characters, but he is also holding a gun, illustrating dominance. The text beneath the Asian characters describes them as 'helpers who all wear their eyes at a slant' from 'countries no one can spell,'" the study authors wrote.“

But it’s totally fine! Says OP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“ a)I want the right to complain about something without my motives being questioned each and every time I make any type of complaint.
b) I want some consensus or rational standard for what is racist and what is not because we sure as hell don't have it now.

The alternative is we talk this through, somehow. But that doesn't happen anymore, anywhere. And if people think they are right and everyone else is wrong, so shove it, don't be so surprised next time someone shoves back.“

You sure don’t like free speech. Maybe start with understanding what that means. Expect pushback, expect people to question your motives. Expect people to ask you why you don’t think something is racist if you loudly protest that it isn’t. Seriously. Listen to yourself. You want consensus? Geez. Not gonna happen. So many mental gymnastics because you can’t admit that maybe you were blind.

Seriously, you are full of it. NOBODY was interested in a serious discussion on this thread. And nowhere else too. OF COURSE I expect pushback. And the way shove, you'll get a harder pushback next time. I told you what I want, and still think I didn't mean it. That's your blindness, which you can't admit yourself either. As long as you do that, people will do it to you, worse and worse each time. Where does end? None of you seem to have thought about that. Time for you to self reflect.

You don’t seem to understand what I wrote. You said you want to complain without anyone questioning your motives. That’s not how free speech works. You want a consensus on what racism means, also not how freedom of thought works. The books have really questionable and racist content in them, if you’ve even looked. If you have and don’t see it, expect a lot of people to disagree.

I did look. The point is that anyone who does question it gets called racist or otherwise doing something dufferent, not given an explanation. Read this thread if you think you are doing something different. If that's how you choose to use your free speech that's up to you of course. Good for you. You struck a blow against racism. Yeah, right.

Holy haddock, you just want an explanation why stereotypes are racist? JFC, you could have just asked that question. Here’s a good explainer: https://www.verywellmind.com/harmful-psychological-effects-of-racial-stereotyping-5069394 TLDR: everyone stereotypes (it’s evolutionary! brains like shortcuts!). But stereotypes can become generalizations. Left unexamined, these generalizations can affect how we actually treat people in the real world. So ask yourself: do we really need stereotypes in children’s books?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:“Regarding "If I Ran the Zoo," the study points out another example of Orientalism and White supremacy.

"The three (and only three) Asian characters who are not wearing conical hats are carrying a White male on their heads in 'If I Ran the Zoo.' The White male is not only on top of, and being carried by, these Asian characters, but he is also holding a gun, illustrating dominance. The text beneath the Asian characters describes them as 'helpers who all wear their eyes at a slant' from 'countries no one can spell,'" the study authors wrote.“

But it’s totally fine! Says OP

Yup, nothing racist here

[Anonymous]

Wel I’m glad we cleared that up!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“ a)I want the right to complain about something without my motives being questioned each and every time I make any type of complaint.
b) I want some consensus or rational standard for what is racist and what is not because we sure as hell don't have it now.

The alternative is we talk this through, somehow. But that doesn't happen anymore, anywhere. And if people think they are right and everyone else is wrong, so shove it, don't be so surprised next time someone shoves back.“

You sure don’t like free speech. Maybe start with understanding what that means. Expect pushback, expect people to question your motives. Expect people to ask you why you don’t think something is racist if you loudly protest that it isn’t. Seriously. Listen to yourself. You want consensus? Geez. Not gonna happen. So many mental gymnastics because you can’t admit that maybe you were blind.

Seriously, you are full of it. NOBODY was interested in a serious discussion on this thread. And nowhere else too. OF COURSE I expect pushback. And the way shove, you'll get a harder pushback next time. I told you what I want, and still think I didn't mean it. That's your blindness, which you can't admit yourself either. As long as you do that, people will do it to you, worse and worse each time. Where does end? None of you seem to have thought about that. Time for you to self reflect.

You don’t seem to understand what I wrote. You said you want to complain without anyone questioning your motives. That’s not how free speech works. You want a consensus on what racism means, also not how freedom of thought works. The books have really questionable and racist content in them, if you’ve even looked. If you have and don’t see it, expect a lot of people to disagree.

I did look. The point is that anyone who does question it gets called racist or otherwise doing something dufferent, not given an explanation. Read this thread if you think you are doing something different. If that's how you choose to use your free speech that's up to you of course. Good for you. You struck a blow against racism. Yeah, right.

Holy haddock, you just want an explanation why stereotypes are racist? JFC, you could have just asked that question. Here’s a good explainer: https://www.verywellmind.com/harmful-psychological-effects-of-racial-stereotyping-5069394 TLDR: everyone stereotypes (it’s evolutionary! brains like shortcuts!). But stereotypes can become generalizations. Left unexamined, these generalizations can affect how we actually treat people in the real world. So ask yourself: do we really need stereotypes in children’s books?

There is no evidence that seeing this type of image causes racist behavior. The article said that, pointed out some plausible examples, many of which were overt messages rather than just pictures, but did not provide any real evidence because. It's all totally subjective. It's their own stereorype about how people form stereotypes. Even when you look in the academic literature. I looked, it isn't their and they admit the standard is subjective, so the academics just decide based on their own subjective guess then try to convince others they are right.

So get either get me a rational standard or admit it's subjective.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“Regarding "If I Ran the Zoo," the study points out another example of Orientalism and White supremacy.

"The three (and only three) Asian characters who are not wearing conical hats are carrying a White male on their heads in 'If I Ran the Zoo.' The White male is not only on top of, and being carried by, these Asian characters, but he is also holding a gun, illustrating dominance. The text beneath the Asian characters describes them as 'helpers who all wear their eyes at a slant' from 'countries no one can spell,'" the study authors wrote.“

But it’s totally fine! Says OP

Yup, nothing racist here

Subjective standard again. I had that book as a kid. I sure didn't get the message they think I got.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“ a)I want the right to complain about something without my motives being questioned each and every time I make any type of complaint.
b) I want some consensus or rational standard for what is racist and what is not because we sure as hell don't have it now.

The alternative is we talk this through, somehow. But that doesn't happen anymore, anywhere. And if people think they are right and everyone else is wrong, so shove it, don't be so surprised next time someone shoves back.“

You sure don’t like free speech. Maybe start with understanding what that means. Expect pushback, expect people to question your motives. Expect people to ask you why you don’t think something is racist if you loudly protest that it isn’t. Seriously. Listen to yourself. You want consensus? Geez. Not gonna happen. So many mental gymnastics because you can’t admit that maybe you were blind.

Seriously, you are full of it. NOBODY was interested in a serious discussion on this thread. And nowhere else too. OF COURSE I expect pushback. And the way shove, you'll get a harder pushback next time. I told you what I want, and still think I didn't mean it. That's your blindness, which you can't admit yourself either. As long as you do that, people will do it to you, worse and worse each time. Where does end? None of you seem to have thought about that. Time for you to self reflect.

You don’t seem to understand what I wrote. You said you want to complain without anyone questioning your motives. That’s not how free speech works. You want a consensus on what racism means, also not how freedom of thought works. The books have really questionable and racist content in them, if you’ve even looked. If you have and don’t see it, expect a lot of people to disagree.

I did look. The point is that anyone who does question it gets called racist or otherwise doing something dufferent, not given an explanation. Read this thread if you think you are doing something different. If that's how you choose to use your free speech that's up to you of course. Good for you. You struck a blow against racism. Yeah, right.

So you want a substantive discussion about the content in question? Imagine you were an Asian mother reading the book to an an Asian child. Would you find it hurtful? I would. That’s how I know it’s not a bad decision to pull the books.

I’m Asian-American and I couldn’t care less. I suppose it’s like the Wapo polls that showed native Americans had a 94% approval rating for the redskins but sjw whitey knew better and had it banned. This sort of paternalistic idiocy is the true crime and racist as hell......oh those poor minorities don’t know what’s best for them. GTH.

[Anonymous]

We will have to disagree then OP, and many disagree with you. You lost this fight. Sorry we can’t force the consensus toward your view. It looks like the publisher feels they have a good case for not trying to make money off of the books anymore. Whatever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“Regarding "If I Ran the Zoo," the study points out another example of Orientalism and White supremacy.

"The three (and only three) Asian characters who are not wearing conical hats are carrying a White male on their heads in 'If I Ran the Zoo.' The White male is not only on top of, and being carried by, these Asian characters, but he is also holding a gun, illustrating dominance. The text beneath the Asian characters describes them as 'helpers who all wear their eyes at a slant' from 'countries no one can spell,'" the study authors wrote.“

But it’s totally fine! Says OP

Yup, nothing racist here

Subjective standard again. I had that book as a kid. I sure didn't get the message they think I got.

Has anyone said that it’s not a subjective? Literally, pages of people saying this was a judgment call. One that apparently really sticks in your craw because you would have made a different one. Boohoo.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“Regarding "If I Ran the Zoo," the study points out another example of Orientalism and White supremacy.

"The three (and only three) Asian characters who are not wearing conical hats are carrying a White male on their heads in 'If I Ran the Zoo.' The White male is not only on top of, and being carried by, these Asian characters, but he is also holding a gun, illustrating dominance. The text beneath the Asian characters describes them as 'helpers who all wear their eyes at a slant' from 'countries no one can spell,'" the study authors wrote.“

But it’s totally fine! Says OP

Yup, nothing racist here

Subjective standard again. I had that book as a kid. I sure didn't get the message they think I got.

Has anyone said that it’s not a subjective? Literally, pages of people saying this was a judgment call. One that apparently really sticks in your craw because you would have made a different one. Boohoo.

Yeah lots of people said it wasn't subjective. And you seem to have a problem that I disagree with you. That really sticks in your craw. You seem to dislike anyone telling you that you are wrong, even if it's just an opinion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“Regarding "If I Ran the Zoo," the study points out another example of Orientalism and White supremacy.

"The three (and only three) Asian characters who are not wearing conical hats are carrying a White male on their heads in 'If I Ran the Zoo.' The White male is not only on top of, and being carried by, these Asian characters, but he is also holding a gun, illustrating dominance. The text beneath the Asian characters describes them as 'helpers who all wear their eyes at a slant' from 'countries no one can spell,'" the study authors wrote.“

But it’s totally fine! Says OP

Yup, nothing racist here

Subjective standard again. I had that book as a kid. I sure didn't get the message they think I got.

Has anyone said that it’s not a subjective? Literally, pages of people saying this was a judgment call. One that apparently really sticks in your craw because you would have made a different one. Boohoo.

Yeah lots of people said it wasn't subjective. And you seem to have a problem that I disagree with you. That really sticks in your craw. You seem to dislike anyone telling you that you are wrong, even if it's just an opinion.

Not really. I didn’t start a thread to complain, and then whine about people questioning my motives.