J.K. Rowling’s post on trans-identity and modern misogyny

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ok I want to take a step back from the name calling and point out where we agree and where we disagree, because I think some people are mistaking my stance (which I think is the same as JKR and other posters)

1. Only people with XX chromosomes menstruate

2. There are people with XX chromosomes but who don’t identify as women who menstruate

3. Trans people deserve to live life in peace and dignity, and we should call people by their preferred names and pronouns

4. Transwomen and ciswomen have differences, which include biology and how they were socialized as children

Ok, here’s where I disagree:

1. There are limited situations where it is legitimate to limit a space to only ciswomen. This includes certain battered women’s shelters if there are victims there who would be triggered around people with male characteristics; competitive women’s sports; and I don’t believe service providers like bikini waxers should be forced to service people with male genitalia (in Canada, many female aestheticians were actually sued for refusing to wax a trans women with male genetalia and some lost their businesses). Some people also have a problem with trans women in women’s bathrooms and locker rooms although I don’t really.

2. Language about XX bodies (Menstruation, pregnancy, breast and ovarian health, etc) should default to using the word woman, unless there is a specific reason not to. This is because saying “people who menstruate” “uterus owners” “people with front holes” (yes this is preferred terminology in some circles) is unnecessarily confusing, and alienating to many women who have already been told by society over and over again that our bodies and reproductive organs are gross. Obviously, if an article or pamphlet is trying to reach the trans and non-binary community specifically, they can use different language as they see fit.

3. Minors should not be allowed to make permanent body alterations. Many minors change their mind about their gender identity later on. And, puberty blockers can cause permanent damage to the development of genitalia. If a minor wants to dress differently and go by a different name and pronouns that’s fine.

4. Preferring to date people who only have certain body types is not transphobic. (Yes, there are some very vocal trans people who think that having a preference for dating cis people is transphobic. I am pretty sure they’re the minority but they are very vocal so it’s hard to tell).

Ok... that’s it. To all those who legitimately want to learn the other sides actual opinions, I hope this is helpful.

I disagree with you and find your reasons for excluding people weak (“too confusing”?).

Your positions are harmful to others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. I don't understand the emphasis on denying any difference, physical or life experience, between ciswomen and transwomen. I don't understand why it is transphobic to say that growing up female is a formative experience. It seems like in every other area, we (rightly, I think) insist on recognizing and supporting physical differences that lead people to have different life experiences and needs.

+1

And it seems like women are always the ones who are told to ignore their needs (both medical and mental) in an effort to be inclusive. When there is nothing wrong with advocating that certain issues are inherent only to women (menstruation, pregnancy, menopause, etc.)

Women are not being “told to ignore their needs”.

You clearly have not read the rest of the thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok I want to take a step back from the name calling and point out where we agree and where we disagree, because I think some people are mistaking my stance (which I think is the same as JKR and other posters)

1. Only people with XX chromosomes menstruate

2. There are people with XX chromosomes but who don’t identify as women who menstruate

3. Trans people deserve to live life in peace and dignity, and we should call people by their preferred names and pronouns

4. Transwomen and ciswomen have differences, which include biology and how they were socialized as children

Ok, here’s where I disagree:

1. There are limited situations where it is legitimate to limit a space to only ciswomen. This includes certain battered women’s shelters if there are victims there who would be triggered around people with male characteristics; competitive women’s sports; and I don’t believe service providers like bikini waxers should be forced to service people with male genitalia (in Canada, many female aestheticians were actually sued for refusing to wax a trans women with male genetalia and some lost their businesses). Some people also have a problem with trans women in women’s bathrooms and locker rooms although I don’t really.

2. Language about XX bodies (Menstruation, pregnancy, breast and ovarian health, etc) should default to using the word woman, unless there is a specific reason not to. This is because saying “people who menstruate” “uterus owners” “people with front holes” (yes this is preferred terminology in some circles) is unnecessarily confusing, and alienating to many women who have already been told by society over and over again that our bodies and reproductive organs are gross. Obviously, if an article or pamphlet is trying to reach the trans and non-binary community specifically, they can use different language as they see fit.

3. Minors should not be allowed to make permanent body alterations. Many minors change their mind about their gender identity later on. And, puberty blockers can cause permanent damage to the development of genitalia. If a minor wants to dress differently and go by a different name and pronouns that’s fine.

4. Preferring to date people who only have certain body types is not transphobic. (Yes, there are some very vocal trans people who think that having a preference for dating cis people is transphobic. I am pretty sure they’re the minority but they are very vocal so it’s hard to tell).

Ok... that’s it. To all those who legitimately want to learn the other sides actual opinions, I hope this is helpful.

I disagree with you and find your reasons for excluding people weak (“too confusing”?).

Your positions are harmful to others.

Same old same old key catchphrases, zero effort to meaningfully respond. I'm beginning to think you're just a troll.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok I want to take a step back from the name calling and point out where we agree and where we disagree, because I think some people are mistaking my stance (which I think is the same as JKR and other posters)

1. Only people with XX chromosomes menstruate

2. There are people with XX chromosomes but who don’t identify as women who menstruate

3. Trans people deserve to live life in peace and dignity, and we should call people by their preferred names and pronouns

4. Transwomen and ciswomen have differences, which include biology and how they were socialized as children

Ok, here’s where I disagree:

1. There are limited situations where it is legitimate to limit a space to only ciswomen. This includes certain battered women’s shelters if there are victims there who would be triggered around people with male characteristics; competitive women’s sports; and I don’t believe service providers like bikini waxers should be forced to service people with male genitalia (in Canada, many female aestheticians were actually sued for refusing to wax a trans women with male genetalia and some lost their businesses). Some people also have a problem with trans women in women’s bathrooms and locker rooms although I don’t really.

2. Language about XX bodies (Menstruation, pregnancy, breast and ovarian health, etc) should default to using the word woman, unless there is a specific reason not to. This is because saying “people who menstruate” “uterus owners” “people with front holes” (yes this is preferred terminology in some circles) is unnecessarily confusing, and alienating to many women who have already been told by society over and over again that our bodies and reproductive organs are gross. Obviously, if an article or pamphlet is trying to reach the trans and non-binary community specifically, they can use different language as they see fit.

3. Minors should not be allowed to make permanent body alterations. Many minors change their mind about their gender identity later on. And, puberty blockers can cause permanent damage to the development of genitalia. If a minor wants to dress differently and go by a different name and pronouns that’s fine.

4. Preferring to date people who only have certain body types is not transphobic. (Yes, there are some very vocal trans people who think that having a preference for dating cis people is transphobic. I am pretty sure they’re the minority but they are very vocal so it’s hard to tell).

Ok... that’s it. To all those who legitimately want to learn the other sides actual opinions, I hope this is helpful.

I disagree with you and find your reasons for excluding people weak (“too confusing”?).

Your positions are harmful to others.

Same old same old key catchphrases, zero effort to meaningfully respond. I'm beginning to think you're just a troll.

Yep.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Who is being "systemically oppressed due to their menstruation" in the US in 2020?

You do not know enough about women's issues to be telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/education/2018/08/14/lack-feminine-hygiene-products-keeps-girls-out-school/948313002/

https://www.nursing.upenn.edu/live/news/1545-the-state-of-period-poverty-in-the-us

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2019/02/jail-california-tampons-menstruation-paula-canny-sanitary-pads/

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/111219-sj-periodequity.pdf

https://time.com/3989966/america-menstrual-crisis/

Great links, and in addition, diseases like PCOS and endometriosis are woefully under researched. I have PCOS and the only solution I’ve ever been given is “Take birth control until you want kids, then hope your pregnancy cures PCOS.” No cure for people who never want kids. Other women are given diabetes medicine as if it’s the same thing, even though a significant % of PCOS Sufferers like myself have no insulin resistance.

One positive of being forced to abandon the word women — if periods are seen as something for males maybe some research money will actually flow our way!

Menstruation is used to oppress women in countries all over the world along with genital mutilation! although, I don't really think this was what Rowling was getting at, but I think being pro-women does not mean anti-trans and support what she was trying to say!

I'm sure all "people who menstruate" and "people at risk of genital mutilation" (including many here in the US!) would all benefit from inclusive advocacy.

Listen, I'm sure you're going to be particularly displeased by this response but I believe that this specific advocacy is actually in trans women's best interest. Trans women have SPECIFIC things that need to be advocated for. For example, trans women need to be clear with their doctors about their history because they have prostates and trans women are at a high risk of prostate cancer going undiagnosed if they do not communicate clearly their medical history.

Trans men can present as pregnant or skip ovarian and cervical cancer screenings for the same reason. The stigma towards trans women that results in them being sexually assaulted at higher rates deserves to be addressed, specifically.

Trans women do not get periods at age 12. They do not have get pregnant, they do not get cramps, endometriosis, PCOS, TSS, ovarian cancer, cervical cancer, yeast infections, HPV and other complications that come from having a period. These are very important events in a teenage girl's life. It is something that women of childbearing age have to be CONSTANTLY aware of as they progress through life, lest they get pregnant and have to take care of a baby when the man walks away leaving them scott free. Your anatomy and genitalia are IMPORTANT in the context of advocating for health and health advocacy.

These teenage girls do not need to have access to hormone therapies, they don't need access to mental health professionals and doctors to guide them through a difficult identity transition. And neither group is doing anything wrong there, but they need DIFFERENT THINGS. And to me, they both deserve dedicated movements designed to advocate for them.

I do not care if a trans woman calls themselves a woman. I will call them she/her and whatever name they have chosen. I will treat them like a woman. I will advocate for trans men and their specific health needs. I will call them him/he and I will treat them like a man. But I am not going to alter language to make it more confusing to the general public and world to advocate for specific health needs. The same language they themselves use to describe their own dysphoria. Because it is a real and tangible difference to be distinguished.

Look, from the perspective of someone who came into this conversation without a set opinion one way or the other, your arguments seem...pretty specious, tbh. Do you honestly believe that including transwomen will make it harder to deal with health and health advocacy issues related to menstruation? Seriously - I don't see what the obstacle here would be. "We should dedicate more funding to research the causes of PCOS - it's a women's rights issue!" "Well, what about transwomen?" "Just because an issue doesn't affect every single woman equally doesn't mean it's not a women's rights issue." That doesn't seem too difficult, honestly.

It really reminds me of the whole "we can't let the children know about homosexuals because it would confuse them!" argument.

Trans women can still have advocates for issues that affect them specifically. So can black women and gay women. It's called intersectionality.

Responses like this make me think I'm expressing myself poorly. But of course its also possible (and frankly fine) that you just disagree.

I think that when we advocate for things like abortion rights and access to feminine hygiene products etc that it is important to define these things as women's issues because they have historically been used to oppress and abuse women. And that historical oppression has led to the gender inequality issues we see today. And I think that when you start saying things like, 'people who menstruate need tampons' it obfuscates the fact that it is women who need them and they need them because there is centuries of oppression that come with how society has viewed periods historically.

Just like 'I don't see color' has been clearly exposed as a way to hide the systemic oppression faced by black people, 'I don't see gender' is a way to hide systemic oppression faced by women.

I passionately believe in intersectionality. Advocating for women, for black women, for gay women, for trans women etc. But trans women have not experienced a set of things that by their very nature have defined and held women back throughout history. And I, frankly, refuse to try to make that less clear through imprecise language.

How would a trans man who menstruates be any less affected by those same centuries of oppression? Seems like they deal with that oppression PLUS anti-trans oppression, including oppression by those who choose to exclude.

Well, when they assume a male identity they, in fact, do lift themselves above a certain set of discriminatory practices that happen towards women. Especially if they are fully transitioned and pass completely as male. And as I specified above, I believe they need targeted outreach for their own issues (like making sure they are screened for biologically female cancers and assistance with something like menopause if they have not gone through a complete transition) that are legitimately different than the issues a biological female presenting as a woman goes through.

But if they are menstruating they will also face the same oppression due to menstruation.

Unless menstruation itself isn’t the issue. In which case, I’m not sure why you brought it up...

You are not arguing in good faith

Seems like you aren’t. Is menstruation the actual issue or not?

If it is, then you should acknowledge that menstruating trans men would face the same barriers related to menstruation.

[Anonymous]

What if it was possible, surgically, to change the color of your skin and pass as a person of color? Would it be okay to do that just as it’s okay for trans men to surgically change their bodies to look like women? I’ve never seen a good argument for why it’s different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Historically, people have been able to advocate for women's rights even though the term "women" has included women who have had hysterectomies (and therefore no longer menstruate), women who have gone through menopause, women who have stopped menstruating due to chemo/PCOS/other medical issues, and women who never menstruated. Why would acknowledging that transwomen are women be any different?

Because TRANS women are not women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok I want to take a step back from the name calling and point out where we agree and where we disagree, because I think some people are mistaking my stance (which I think is the same as JKR and other posters)

1. Only people with XX chromosomes menstruate

2. There are people with XX chromosomes but who don’t identify as women who menstruate

3. Trans people deserve to live life in peace and dignity, and we should call people by their preferred names and pronouns

4. Transwomen and ciswomen have differences, which include biology and how they were socialized as children

Ok, here’s where I disagree:

1. There are limited situations where it is legitimate to limit a space to only ciswomen. This includes certain battered women’s shelters if there are victims there who would be triggered around people with male characteristics; competitive women’s sports; and I don’t believe service providers like bikini waxers should be forced to service people with male genitalia (in Canada, many female aestheticians were actually sued for refusing to wax a trans women with male genetalia and some lost their businesses). Some people also have a problem with trans women in women’s bathrooms and locker rooms although I don’t really.

2. Language about XX bodies (Menstruation, pregnancy, breast and ovarian health, etc) should default to using the word woman, unless there is a specific reason not to. This is because saying “people who menstruate” “uterus owners” “people with front holes” (yes this is preferred terminology in some circles) is unnecessarily confusing, and alienating to many women who have already been told by society over and over again that our bodies and reproductive organs are gross. Obviously, if an article or pamphlet is trying to reach the trans and non-binary community specifically, they can use different language as they see fit.

3. Minors should not be allowed to make permanent body alterations. Many minors change their mind about their gender identity later on. And, puberty blockers can cause permanent damage to the development of genitalia. If a minor wants to dress differently and go by a different name and pronouns that’s fine.

4. Preferring to date people who only have certain body types is not transphobic. (Yes, there are some very vocal trans people who think that having a preference for dating cis people is transphobic. I am pretty sure they’re the minority but they are very vocal so it’s hard to tell).

Ok... that’s it. To all those who legitimately want to learn the other sides actual opinions, I hope this is helpful.

I disagree with you and find your reasons for excluding people weak (“too confusing”?).

Your positions are harmful to others.

Same old same old key catchphrases, zero effort to meaningfully respond. I'm beginning to think you're just a troll.

Nothing wrong with being concise.

I’ve already addressed your points in prior posts and I’m now on my phone so I don’t feel like typing it all out again. It’s repetitive anyway. “Too confusing” is a weak cop-out and no excuse to harm others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Who is being "systemically oppressed due to their menstruation" in the US in 2020?

You do not know enough about women's issues to be telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/education/2018/08/14/lack-feminine-hygiene-products-keeps-girls-out-school/948313002/

https://www.nursing.upenn.edu/live/news/1545-the-state-of-period-poverty-in-the-us

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2019/02/jail-california-tampons-menstruation-paula-canny-sanitary-pads/

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/111219-sj-periodequity.pdf

https://time.com/3989966/america-menstrual-crisis/

Great links, and in addition, diseases like PCOS and endometriosis are woefully under researched. I have PCOS and the only solution I’ve ever been given is “Take birth control until you want kids, then hope your pregnancy cures PCOS.” No cure for people who never want kids. Other women are given diabetes medicine as if it’s the same thing, even though a significant % of PCOS Sufferers like myself have no insulin resistance.

One positive of being forced to abandon the word women — if periods are seen as something for males maybe some research money will actually flow our way!

Menstruation is used to oppress women in countries all over the world along with genital mutilation! although, I don't really think this was what Rowling was getting at, but I think being pro-women does not mean anti-trans and support what she was trying to say!

I'm sure all "people who menstruate" and "people at risk of genital mutilation" (including many here in the US!) would all benefit from inclusive advocacy.

Listen, I'm sure you're going to be particularly displeased by this response but I believe that this specific advocacy is actually in trans women's best interest. Trans women have SPECIFIC things that need to be advocated for. For example, trans women need to be clear with their doctors about their history because they have prostates and trans women are at a high risk of prostate cancer going undiagnosed if they do not communicate clearly their medical history.

Trans men can present as pregnant or skip ovarian and cervical cancer screenings for the same reason. The stigma towards trans women that results in them being sexually assaulted at higher rates deserves to be addressed, specifically.

Trans women do not get periods at age 12. They do not have get pregnant, they do not get cramps, endometriosis, PCOS, TSS, ovarian cancer, cervical cancer, yeast infections, HPV and other complications that come from having a period. These are very important events in a teenage girl's life. It is something that women of childbearing age have to be CONSTANTLY aware of as they progress through life, lest they get pregnant and have to take care of a baby when the man walks away leaving them scott free. Your anatomy and genitalia are IMPORTANT in the context of advocating for health and health advocacy.

These teenage girls do not need to have access to hormone therapies, they don't need access to mental health professionals and doctors to guide them through a difficult identity transition. And neither group is doing anything wrong there, but they need DIFFERENT THINGS. And to me, they both deserve dedicated movements designed to advocate for them.

I do not care if a trans woman calls themselves a woman. I will call them she/her and whatever name they have chosen. I will treat them like a woman. I will advocate for trans men and their specific health needs. I will call them him/he and I will treat them like a man. But I am not going to alter language to make it more confusing to the general public and world to advocate for specific health needs. The same language they themselves use to describe their own dysphoria. Because it is a real and tangible difference to be distinguished.

Look, from the perspective of someone who came into this conversation without a set opinion one way or the other, your arguments seem...pretty specious, tbh. Do you honestly believe that including transwomen will make it harder to deal with health and health advocacy issues related to menstruation? Seriously - I don't see what the obstacle here would be. "We should dedicate more funding to research the causes of PCOS - it's a women's rights issue!" "Well, what about transwomen?" "Just because an issue doesn't affect every single woman equally doesn't mean it's not a women's rights issue." That doesn't seem too difficult, honestly.

It really reminds me of the whole "we can't let the children know about homosexuals because it would confuse them!" argument.

Trans women can still have advocates for issues that affect them specifically. So can black women and gay women. It's called intersectionality.

Responses like this make me think I'm expressing myself poorly. But of course its also possible (and frankly fine) that you just disagree.

I think that when we advocate for things like abortion rights and access to feminine hygiene products etc that it is important to define these things as women's issues because they have historically been used to oppress and abuse women. And that historical oppression has led to the gender inequality issues we see today. And I think that when you start saying things like, 'people who menstruate need tampons' it obfuscates the fact that it is women who need them and they need them because there is centuries of oppression that come with how society has viewed periods historically.

Just like 'I don't see color' has been clearly exposed as a way to hide the systemic oppression faced by black people, 'I don't see gender' is a way to hide systemic oppression faced by women.

I passionately believe in intersectionality. Advocating for women, for black women, for gay women, for trans women etc. But trans women have not experienced a set of things that by their very nature have defined and held women back throughout history. And I, frankly, refuse to try to make that less clear through imprecise language.

How would a trans man who menstruates be any less affected by those same centuries of oppression? Seems like they deal with that oppression PLUS anti-trans oppression, including oppression by those who choose to exclude.

Well, when they assume a male identity they, in fact, do lift themselves above a certain set of discriminatory practices that happen towards women. Especially if they are fully transitioned and pass completely as male. And as I specified above, I believe they need targeted outreach for their own issues (like making sure they are screened for biologically female cancers and assistance with something like menopause if they have not gone through a complete transition) that are legitimately different than the issues a biological female presenting as a woman goes through.

But if they are menstruating they will also face the same oppression due to menstruation.

Unless menstruation itself isn’t the issue. In which case, I’m not sure why you brought it up...

You are not arguing in good faith

Seems like you aren’t. Is menstruation the actual issue or not?

If it is, then you should acknowledge that menstruating trans men would face the same barriers related to menstruation.

I have, at length, described how the consequences of how menstruation is treated holds women back in the US and very seriously, around the world. I am not going to repeat myself to have you ignore it again.

I have acknowledged that trans men also menstruate, for different amounts of time through their journeys. I feel like trans men understand why its so important that women are able to advocate for women's rights which is why they are not the loudest voices in this fight.

A very small percentage of trans men may face issues related to menstruation. Trans men in women's prisons for example. But in many ways, transitioning frees trans mens from these issues. Once they transition past that point, they never have to deal with having a period again. They never have to deal with someone saying they can't be trusted because they're PMSing. They get all the benefits of being viewed as a man.

I think trans men need advocacy specifically tailored to their needs. How does hormone treatment alter their menstrual cycle? How can a trans man have a baby, if he wants to, while continuing or supporting his transition? These are specific things. Men also get breast cancer but breast cancer research focuses on women who experience the vast majority of issues related to breast cancer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Seems like you aren’t. Is menstruation the actual issue or not?

If it is, then you should acknowledge that menstruating trans men would face the same barriers related to menstruation.

DP. Trans-men face some barriers that are the same (having to stock menstrual supplies) but not most of the societal barriers like being accused of being overly emotional due to being on their period. They're probably also less likely to be locked in a menstruation hut and accidentally die because they're on their period.

Honestly it seems like the only time anyone is concerned about trans-men is to silence women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok I want to take a step back from the name calling and point out where we agree and where we disagree, because I think some people are mistaking my stance (which I think is the same as JKR and other posters)

1. Only people with XX chromosomes menstruate

2. There are people with XX chromosomes but who don’t identify as women who menstruate

3. Trans people deserve to live life in peace and dignity, and we should call people by their preferred names and pronouns

4. Transwomen and ciswomen have differences, which include biology and how they were socialized as children

Ok, here’s where I disagree:

1. There are limited situations where it is legitimate to limit a space to only ciswomen. This includes certain battered women’s shelters if there are victims there who would be triggered around people with male characteristics; competitive women’s sports; and I don’t believe service providers like bikini waxers should be forced to service people with male genitalia (in Canada, many female aestheticians were actually sued for refusing to wax a trans women with male genetalia and some lost their businesses). Some people also have a problem with trans women in women’s bathrooms and locker rooms although I don’t really.

2. Language about XX bodies (Menstruation, pregnancy, breast and ovarian health, etc) should default to using the word woman, unless there is a specific reason not to. This is because saying “people who menstruate” “uterus owners” “people with front holes” (yes this is preferred terminology in some circles) is unnecessarily confusing, and alienating to many women who have already been told by society over and over again that our bodies and reproductive organs are gross. Obviously, if an article or pamphlet is trying to reach the trans and non-binary community specifically, they can use different language as they see fit.

3. Minors should not be allowed to make permanent body alterations. Many minors change their mind about their gender identity later on. And, puberty blockers can cause permanent damage to the development of genitalia. If a minor wants to dress differently and go by a different name and pronouns that’s fine.

4. Preferring to date people who only have certain body types is not transphobic. (Yes, there are some very vocal trans people who think that having a preference for dating cis people is transphobic. I am pretty sure they’re the minority but they are very vocal so it’s hard to tell).

Ok... that’s it. To all those who legitimately want to learn the other sides actual opinions, I hope this is helpful.

I disagree with you and find your reasons for excluding people weak (“too confusing”?).

Your positions are harmful to others.

Same old same old key catchphrases, zero effort to meaningfully respond. I'm beginning to think you're just a troll.

Nothing wrong with being concise.

I’ve already addressed your points in prior posts and I’m now on my phone so I don’t feel like typing it all out again. It’s repetitive anyway. “Too confusing” is a weak cop-out and no excuse to harm others.

I think in the last 15 pages I have talked about it being confusing once. Continuing to cite it as my primary argument is a weak cop out.

[Anonymous]

Why does it harm trans women to call them trans women?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Who is being "systemically oppressed due to their menstruation" in the US in 2020?

You do not know enough about women's issues to be telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/education/2018/08/14/lack-feminine-hygiene-products-keeps-girls-out-school/948313002/

https://www.nursing.upenn.edu/live/news/1545-the-state-of-period-poverty-in-the-us

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2019/02/jail-california-tampons-menstruation-paula-canny-sanitary-pads/

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/111219-sj-periodequity.pdf

https://time.com/3989966/america-menstrual-crisis/

Great links, and in addition, diseases like PCOS and endometriosis are woefully under researched. I have PCOS and the only solution I’ve ever been given is “Take birth control until you want kids, then hope your pregnancy cures PCOS.” No cure for people who never want kids. Other women are given diabetes medicine as if it’s the same thing, even though a significant % of PCOS Sufferers like myself have no insulin resistance.

One positive of being forced to abandon the word women — if periods are seen as something for males maybe some research money will actually flow our way!

Menstruation is used to oppress women in countries all over the world along with genital mutilation! although, I don't really think this was what Rowling was getting at, but I think being pro-women does not mean anti-trans and support what she was trying to say!

I'm sure all "people who menstruate" and "people at risk of genital mutilation" (including many here in the US!) would all benefit from inclusive advocacy.

Listen, I'm sure you're going to be particularly displeased by this response but I believe that this specific advocacy is actually in trans women's best interest. Trans women have SPECIFIC things that need to be advocated for. For example, trans women need to be clear with their doctors about their history because they have prostates and trans women are at a high risk of prostate cancer going undiagnosed if they do not communicate clearly their medical history.

Trans men can present as pregnant or skip ovarian and cervical cancer screenings for the same reason. The stigma towards trans women that results in them being sexually assaulted at higher rates deserves to be addressed, specifically.

Trans women do not get periods at age 12. They do not have get pregnant, they do not get cramps, endometriosis, PCOS, TSS, ovarian cancer, cervical cancer, yeast infections, HPV and other complications that come from having a period. These are very important events in a teenage girl's life. It is something that women of childbearing age have to be CONSTANTLY aware of as they progress through life, lest they get pregnant and have to take care of a baby when the man walks away leaving them scott free. Your anatomy and genitalia are IMPORTANT in the context of advocating for health and health advocacy.

These teenage girls do not need to have access to hormone therapies, they don't need access to mental health professionals and doctors to guide them through a difficult identity transition. And neither group is doing anything wrong there, but they need DIFFERENT THINGS. And to me, they both deserve dedicated movements designed to advocate for them.

I do not care if a trans woman calls themselves a woman. I will call them she/her and whatever name they have chosen. I will treat them like a woman. I will advocate for trans men and their specific health needs. I will call them him/he and I will treat them like a man. But I am not going to alter language to make it more confusing to the general public and world to advocate for specific health needs. The same language they themselves use to describe their own dysphoria. Because it is a real and tangible difference to be distinguished.

Look, from the perspective of someone who came into this conversation without a set opinion one way or the other, your arguments seem...pretty specious, tbh. Do you honestly believe that including transwomen will make it harder to deal with health and health advocacy issues related to menstruation? Seriously - I don't see what the obstacle here would be. "We should dedicate more funding to research the causes of PCOS - it's a women's rights issue!" "Well, what about transwomen?" "Just because an issue doesn't affect every single woman equally doesn't mean it's not a women's rights issue." That doesn't seem too difficult, honestly.

It really reminds me of the whole "we can't let the children know about homosexuals because it would confuse them!" argument.

Trans women can still have advocates for issues that affect them specifically. So can black women and gay women. It's called intersectionality.

Responses like this make me think I'm expressing myself poorly. But of course its also possible (and frankly fine) that you just disagree.

I think that when we advocate for things like abortion rights and access to feminine hygiene products etc that it is important to define these things as women's issues because they have historically been used to oppress and abuse women. And that historical oppression has led to the gender inequality issues we see today. And I think that when you start saying things like, 'people who menstruate need tampons' it obfuscates the fact that it is women who need them and they need them because there is centuries of oppression that come with how society has viewed periods historically.

Just like 'I don't see color' has been clearly exposed as a way to hide the systemic oppression faced by black people, 'I don't see gender' is a way to hide systemic oppression faced by women.

I passionately believe in intersectionality. Advocating for women, for black women, for gay women, for trans women etc. But trans women have not experienced a set of things that by their very nature have defined and held women back throughout history. And I, frankly, refuse to try to make that less clear through imprecise language.

How would a trans man who menstruates be any less affected by those same centuries of oppression? Seems like they deal with that oppression PLUS anti-trans oppression, including oppression by those who choose to exclude.

Well, when they assume a male identity they, in fact, do lift themselves above a certain set of discriminatory practices that happen towards women. Especially if they are fully transitioned and pass completely as male. And as I specified above, I believe they need targeted outreach for their own issues (like making sure they are screened for biologically female cancers and assistance with something like menopause if they have not gone through a complete transition) that are legitimately different than the issues a biological female presenting as a woman goes through.

But if they are menstruating they will also face the same oppression due to menstruation.

Unless menstruation itself isn’t the issue. In which case, I’m not sure why you brought it up...

You are not arguing in good faith

Seems like you aren’t. Is menstruation the actual issue or not?

If it is, then you should acknowledge that menstruating trans men would face the same barriers related to menstruation.

I have, at length, described how the consequences of how menstruation is treated holds women back in the US and very seriously, around the world. I am not going to repeat myself to have you ignore it again.

I have acknowledged that trans men also menstruate, for different amounts of time through their journeys. I feel like trans men understand why its so important that women are able to advocate for women's rights which is why they are not the loudest voices in this fight.

A very small percentage of trans men may face issues related to menstruation. Trans men in women's prisons for example. But in many ways, transitioning frees trans mens from these issues. Once they transition past that point, they never have to deal with having a period again. They never have to deal with someone saying they can't be trusted because they're PMSing. They get all the benefits of being viewed as a man.

I think trans men need advocacy specifically tailored to their needs. How does hormone treatment alter their menstrual cycle? How can a trans man have a baby, if he wants to, while continuing or supporting his transition? These are specific things. Men also get breast cancer but breast cancer research focuses on women who experience the vast majority of issues related to breast cancer.

I'm sorry I misspoke here and want to clarify. I have bolded where what I typed is not what I meant. A small percentage of people who menstruate are not women. And a fraction (fraction meaning portion, not necessarily small portion) of the trans men population falls into this category. Because anyone who transitions will not menstruate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why does it harm trans women to call them trans women?

Because they’re deluded men and need to usurp and undermine women in any way possible, and feel entitled to do so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why does it harm trans women to call them trans women?

Because they’re deluded men and need to usurp and undermine women in any way possible, and feel entitled to do so.

Remember, you're talking about 15 year olds here. Or 12 year olds. Or 7 year olds.