J.K. Rowling’s post on trans-identity and modern misogyny

[Anonymous]

Ok I want to take a step back from the name calling and point out where we agree and where we disagree, because I think some people are mistaking my stance (which I think is the same as JKR and other posters)

1. Only people with XX chromosomes menstruate

2. There are people with XX chromosomes but who don’t identify as women who menstruate

3. Trans people deserve to live life in peace and dignity, and we should call people by their preferred names and pronouns

4. Transwomen and ciswomen have differences, which include biology and how they were socialized as children

Ok, here’s where I disagree:

1. There are limited situations where it is legitimate to limit a space to only ciswomen. This includes certain battered women’s shelters if there are victims there who would be triggered around people with male characteristics; competitive women’s sports; and I don’t believe service providers like bikini waxers should be forced to service people with male genitalia (in Canada, many female aestheticians were actually sued for refusing to wax a trans women with male genetalia and some lost their businesses). Some people also have a problem with trans women in women’s bathrooms and locker rooms although I don’t really.

2. Language about XX bodies (Menstruation, pregnancy, breast and ovarian health, etc) should default to using the word woman, unless there is a specific reason not to. This is because saying “people who menstruate” “uterus owners” “people with front holes” (yes this is preferred terminology in some circles) is unnecessarily confusing, and alienating to many women who have already been told by society over and over again that our bodies and reproductive organs are gross. Obviously, if an article or pamphlet is trying to reach the trans and non-binary community specifically, they can use different language as they see fit.

3. Minors should not be allowed to make permanent body alterations. Many minors change their mind about their gender identity later on. And, puberty blockers can cause permanent damage to the development of genitalia. If a minor wants to dress differently and go by a different name and pronouns that’s fine.

4. Preferring to date people who only have certain body types is not transphobic. (Yes, there are some very vocal trans people who think that having a preference for dating cis people is transphobic. I am pretty sure they’re the minority but they are very vocal so it’s hard to tell).

Ok... that’s it. To all those who legitimately want to learn the other sides actual opinions, I hope this is helpful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Y'all really have to know that, to the younger generations, this is a non-issue. None of us have a problem including trans women as women, while at the same time advocating for women's rights.

You're on the wrong side of history.

This does seem to be a generational issue, to an extent. But you don't care about trans men, younger generation, either. A lot of concern about being acknowledged but not a lot of concern to acknowledge.

There is a small but growing backlash among younger people. Specifically LGB younger people who don’t want to be associated with the more extreme parts of the “TQ”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Y'all really have to know that, to the younger generations, this is a non-issue. None of us have a problem including trans women as women, while at the same time advocating for women's rights.

You're on the wrong side of history.

I'm one of the posters that you think is disagreeing with you. But as long as you talk like this, we're basically in agreement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ok I want to take a step back from the name calling and point out where we agree and where we disagree, because I think some people are mistaking my stance (which I think is the same as JKR and other posters)

1. Only people with XX chromosomes menstruate

2. There are people with XX chromosomes but who don’t identify as women who menstruate

3. Trans people deserve to live life in peace and dignity, and we should call people by their preferred names and pronouns

4. Transwomen and ciswomen have differences, which include biology and how they were socialized as children

Ok, here’s where I disagree:

1. There are limited situations where it is legitimate to limit a space to only ciswomen. This includes certain battered women’s shelters if there are victims there who would be triggered around people with male characteristics; competitive women’s sports; and I don’t believe service providers like bikini waxers should be forced to service people with male genitalia (in Canada, many female aestheticians were actually sued for refusing to wax a trans women with male genetalia and some lost their businesses). Some people also have a problem with trans women in women’s bathrooms and locker rooms although I don’t really.

2. Language about XX bodies (Menstruation, pregnancy, breast and ovarian health, etc) should default to using the word woman, unless there is a specific reason not to. This is because saying “people who menstruate” “uterus owners” “people with front holes” (yes this is preferred terminology in some circles) is unnecessarily confusing, and alienating to many women who have already been told by society over and over again that our bodies and reproductive organs are gross. Obviously, if an article or pamphlet is trying to reach the trans and non-binary community specifically, they can use different language as they see fit.

3. Minors should not be allowed to make permanent body alterations. Many minors change their mind about their gender identity later on. And, puberty blockers can cause permanent damage to the development of genitalia. If a minor wants to dress differently and go by a different name and pronouns that’s fine.

4. Preferring to date people who only have certain body types is not transphobic. (Yes, there are some very vocal trans people who think that having a preference for dating cis people is transphobic. I am pretty sure they’re the minority but they are very vocal so it’s hard to tell).

Ok... that’s it. To all those who legitimately want to learn the other sides actual opinions, I hope this is helpful.

This sums up me. I would add the historical oppression and subjugation of women based specifically on these biological functions and how that oppression has informed a gap in how men and women fare in today's society means that language is important because women specifically have been held back due to these things. But yes overall.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Y'all really have to know that, to the younger generations, this is a non-issue. None of us have a problem including trans women as women, while at the same time advocating for women's rights.

You're on the wrong side of history.

Another swipe at older women. Young people often think they have all the answers when, in fact, they are working with a limited set of experiences and information.

The best world is where the optimism of the younger is brought together with the life experience and wisdom of the older.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. I don't understand the emphasis on denying any difference, physical or life experience, between ciswomen and transwomen. I don't understand why it is transphobic to say that growing up female is a formative experience. It seems like in every other area, we (rightly, I think) insist on recognizing and supporting physical differences that lead people to have different life experiences and needs.

+1

And it seems like women are always the ones who are told to ignore their needs (both medical and mental) in an effort to be inclusive. When there is nothing wrong with advocating that certain issues are inherent only to women (menstruation, pregnancy, menopause, etc.)

Agreed. I don't understand the idea that we have to ignore clear differences and biology to be inclusive. Listen to the Venn diagram person.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Y'all really have to know that, to the younger generations, this is a non-issue. None of us have a problem including trans women as women, while at the same time advocating for women's rights.

You're on the wrong side of history.

Another swipe at older women. Young people often think they have all the answers when, in fact, they are working with a limited set of experiences and information.

The best world is where the optimism of the younger is brought together with the life experience and wisdom of the older.

You’d think ageism is one of the isms these enlightened folks want to eradicate! Maybe the next generation.

Btw, plenty of young people who think things have gone too far. They’re just too scared to say it

- Signed, a 29 year old (don’t know if that makes me young and enlightened or an old fogey according to PP)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Y'all really have to know that, to the younger generations, this is a non-issue. None of us have a problem including trans women as women, while at the same time advocating for women's rights.

You're on the wrong side of history.

Another swipe at older women. Young people often think they have all the answers when, in fact, they are working with a limited set of experiences and information.

The best world is where the optimism of the younger is brought together with the life experience and wisdom of the older.

You’d think ageism is one of the isms these enlightened folks want to eradicate! Maybe the next generation.

Btw, plenty of young people who think things have gone too far. They’re just too scared to say it

- Signed, a 29 year old (don’t know if that makes me young and enlightened or an old fogey according to PP)

+1 - 35 year old

[Anonymous]

I am fairly young (35) and I am a little bit alarmed at the cultural shift that has occurred around talking about gender. I absolutely want transgender people to live in peace, but when I hear people talking about their transition, often I notice a lot of self-hatred towards their bodies and the way they were born. I think this is kind of sad, and should it really be accepted as normal? I think J.K. Rowling has a point- if a girl hates her body and hates being a woman, does that actually mean that she is a man, or that she can learn to love her body?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Who is being "systemically oppressed due to their menstruation" in the US in 2020?

You do not know enough about women's issues to be telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/education/2018/08/14/lack-feminine-hygiene-products-keeps-girls-out-school/948313002/

https://www.nursing.upenn.edu/live/news/1545-the-state-of-period-poverty-in-the-us

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2019/02/jail-california-tampons-menstruation-paula-canny-sanitary-pads/

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/111219-sj-periodequity.pdf

https://time.com/3989966/america-menstrual-crisis/

Great links, and in addition, diseases like PCOS and endometriosis are woefully under researched. I have PCOS and the only solution I’ve ever been given is “Take birth control until you want kids, then hope your pregnancy cures PCOS.” No cure for people who never want kids. Other women are given diabetes medicine as if it’s the same thing, even though a significant % of PCOS Sufferers like myself have no insulin resistance.

One positive of being forced to abandon the word women — if periods are seen as something for males maybe some research money will actually flow our way!

Menstruation is used to oppress women in countries all over the world along with genital mutilation! although, I don't really think this was what Rowling was getting at, but I think being pro-women does not mean anti-trans and support what she was trying to say!

I'm sure all "people who menstruate" and "people at risk of genital mutilation" (including many here in the US!) would all benefit from inclusive advocacy.

Listen, I'm sure you're going to be particularly displeased by this response but I believe that this specific advocacy is actually in trans women's best interest. Trans women have SPECIFIC things that need to be advocated for. For example, trans women need to be clear with their doctors about their history because they have prostates and trans women are at a high risk of prostate cancer going undiagnosed if they do not communicate clearly their medical history.

Trans men can present as pregnant or skip ovarian and cervical cancer screenings for the same reason. The stigma towards trans women that results in them being sexually assaulted at higher rates deserves to be addressed, specifically.

Trans women do not get periods at age 12. They do not have get pregnant, they do not get cramps, endometriosis, PCOS, TSS, ovarian cancer, cervical cancer, yeast infections, HPV and other complications that come from having a period. These are very important events in a teenage girl's life. It is something that women of childbearing age have to be CONSTANTLY aware of as they progress through life, lest they get pregnant and have to take care of a baby when the man walks away leaving them scott free. Your anatomy and genitalia are IMPORTANT in the context of advocating for health and health advocacy.

These teenage girls do not need to have access to hormone therapies, they don't need access to mental health professionals and doctors to guide them through a difficult identity transition. And neither group is doing anything wrong there, but they need DIFFERENT THINGS. And to me, they both deserve dedicated movements designed to advocate for them.

I do not care if a trans woman calls themselves a woman. I will call them she/her and whatever name they have chosen. I will treat them like a woman. I will advocate for trans men and their specific health needs. I will call them him/he and I will treat them like a man. But I am not going to alter language to make it more confusing to the general public and world to advocate for specific health needs. The same language they themselves use to describe their own dysphoria. Because it is a real and tangible difference to be distinguished.

Look, from the perspective of someone who came into this conversation without a set opinion one way or the other, your arguments seem...pretty specious, tbh. Do you honestly believe that including transwomen will make it harder to deal with health and health advocacy issues related to menstruation? Seriously - I don't see what the obstacle here would be. "We should dedicate more funding to research the causes of PCOS - it's a women's rights issue!" "Well, what about transwomen?" "Just because an issue doesn't affect every single woman equally doesn't mean it's not a women's rights issue." That doesn't seem too difficult, honestly.

It really reminds me of the whole "we can't let the children know about homosexuals because it would confuse them!" argument.

Trans women can still have advocates for issues that affect them specifically. So can black women and gay women. It's called intersectionality.

Responses like this make me think I'm expressing myself poorly. But of course its also possible (and frankly fine) that you just disagree.

I think that when we advocate for things like abortion rights and access to feminine hygiene products etc that it is important to define these things as women's issues because they have historically been used to oppress and abuse women. And that historical oppression has led to the gender inequality issues we see today. And I think that when you start saying things like, 'people who menstruate need tampons' it obfuscates the fact that it is women who need them and they need them because there is centuries of oppression that come with how society has viewed periods historically.

Just like 'I don't see color' has been clearly exposed as a way to hide the systemic oppression faced by black people, 'I don't see gender' is a way to hide systemic oppression faced by women.

I passionately believe in intersectionality. Advocating for women, for black women, for gay women, for trans women etc. But trans women have not experienced a set of things that by their very nature have defined and held women back throughout history. And I, frankly, refuse to try to make that less clear through imprecise language.

How would a trans man who menstruates be any less affected by those same centuries of oppression? Seems like they deal with that oppression PLUS anti-trans oppression, including oppression by those who choose to exclude.

Well, when they assume a male identity they, in fact, do lift themselves above a certain set of discriminatory practices that happen towards women. Especially if they are fully transitioned and pass completely as male. And as I specified above, I believe they need targeted outreach for their own issues (like making sure they are screened for biologically female cancers and assistance with something like menopause if they have not gone through a complete transition) that are legitimately different than the issues a biological female presenting as a woman goes through.

But if they are menstruating they will also face the same oppression due to menstruation.

Unless menstruation itself isn’t the issue. In which case, I’m not sure why you brought it up...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
NP, and I've read your responses, and they just don't hold together. You seem to take it as a given that it would be too confusing to advocate for women if you have to account for trans women in the definition, but you don't explain why it would be confusing, or how, or give any examples. And it isn't as obvious as you seem to think.

DP.

For a biological woman, having or not having a period can be a serious thing. If we reduce women to "menstruators" we hide that issue. A young woman who's gotten to be age 16 or 17 without having a period may well assume she's just not a menstruator. She may have no idea that's an issue she should bring up with a medical professional. Girls and womens health concerns are undervalued. We are ignored from research to implementation. And now we're supposed to avoid centering womens health and health issues, because a tiny minority of people might possibly have to deal with the fact that their biology is different from the biology of people they'd like to align themselves with.

We don't avoid pushing for prenatal care because of a minority of women who can't get pregnant - even when it causes them serious distress to deal with this knowledge. Why? Because making sure women have access to care before and during pregnancy is critical to the health of those women and the resulting infants. But perhaps we should prioritize women who are dealing with infertility, and just leave it to all other women to make sure they know exactly what they'll need, and that they're effective self-advocates.

No one is saying anything of the sort. We can talk about more than one thing at once. We can advocate for women's health and health issues, and we can include trans women, just like we include women who have had hysterectomies. And just like we advocate for health professionals to actually listen to black women's pain even though that isn't an issue that generally affects white women. We can hold more than one thought in our head at once. We can do all of those things. It's actually quite easy: just don't be a d!ck. As it were.

Not PP but if you can hold more than one thought in your head, shouldn't it be fairly easy to think about women's issues and trans-women's issues as 2 different things?
Why are you advocating that thinking these are 2 different things is hateful rhetoric??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Y'all really have to know that, to the younger generations, this is a non-issue. None of us have a problem including trans women as women, while at the same time advocating for women's rights.

You're on the wrong side of history.

I know a few younger, religious people who are anti-trans and use “women’s rights” as an excuse to fight trans rights.

It’s part of some cultures.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Y'all really have to know that, to the younger generations, this is a non-issue. None of us have a problem including trans women as women, while at the same time advocating for women's rights.

You're on the wrong side of history.

I know a few younger, religious people who are anti-trans and use “women’s rights” as an excuse to fight trans rights.

It’s part of some cultures.

^ and they hate all sorts of other people so not just trans people - they attack everyone not like them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. I don't understand the emphasis on denying any difference, physical or life experience, between ciswomen and transwomen. I don't understand why it is transphobic to say that growing up female is a formative experience. It seems like in every other area, we (rightly, I think) insist on recognizing and supporting physical differences that lead people to have different life experiences and needs.

+1

And it seems like women are always the ones who are told to ignore their needs (both medical and mental) in an effort to be inclusive. When there is nothing wrong with advocating that certain issues are inherent only to women (menstruation, pregnancy, menopause, etc.)

Women are not being “told to ignore their needs”.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Who is being "systemically oppressed due to their menstruation" in the US in 2020?

You do not know enough about women's issues to be telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/education/2018/08/14/lack-feminine-hygiene-products-keeps-girls-out-school/948313002/

https://www.nursing.upenn.edu/live/news/1545-the-state-of-period-poverty-in-the-us

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2019/02/jail-california-tampons-menstruation-paula-canny-sanitary-pads/

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/111219-sj-periodequity.pdf

https://time.com/3989966/america-menstrual-crisis/

Great links, and in addition, diseases like PCOS and endometriosis are woefully under researched. I have PCOS and the only solution I’ve ever been given is “Take birth control until you want kids, then hope your pregnancy cures PCOS.” No cure for people who never want kids. Other women are given diabetes medicine as if it’s the same thing, even though a significant % of PCOS Sufferers like myself have no insulin resistance.

One positive of being forced to abandon the word women — if periods are seen as something for males maybe some research money will actually flow our way!

Menstruation is used to oppress women in countries all over the world along with genital mutilation! although, I don't really think this was what Rowling was getting at, but I think being pro-women does not mean anti-trans and support what she was trying to say!

I'm sure all "people who menstruate" and "people at risk of genital mutilation" (including many here in the US!) would all benefit from inclusive advocacy.

Listen, I'm sure you're going to be particularly displeased by this response but I believe that this specific advocacy is actually in trans women's best interest. Trans women have SPECIFIC things that need to be advocated for. For example, trans women need to be clear with their doctors about their history because they have prostates and trans women are at a high risk of prostate cancer going undiagnosed if they do not communicate clearly their medical history.

Trans men can present as pregnant or skip ovarian and cervical cancer screenings for the same reason. The stigma towards trans women that results in them being sexually assaulted at higher rates deserves to be addressed, specifically.

Trans women do not get periods at age 12. They do not have get pregnant, they do not get cramps, endometriosis, PCOS, TSS, ovarian cancer, cervical cancer, yeast infections, HPV and other complications that come from having a period. These are very important events in a teenage girl's life. It is something that women of childbearing age have to be CONSTANTLY aware of as they progress through life, lest they get pregnant and have to take care of a baby when the man walks away leaving them scott free. Your anatomy and genitalia are IMPORTANT in the context of advocating for health and health advocacy.

These teenage girls do not need to have access to hormone therapies, they don't need access to mental health professionals and doctors to guide them through a difficult identity transition. And neither group is doing anything wrong there, but they need DIFFERENT THINGS. And to me, they both deserve dedicated movements designed to advocate for them.

I do not care if a trans woman calls themselves a woman. I will call them she/her and whatever name they have chosen. I will treat them like a woman. I will advocate for trans men and their specific health needs. I will call them him/he and I will treat them like a man. But I am not going to alter language to make it more confusing to the general public and world to advocate for specific health needs. The same language they themselves use to describe their own dysphoria. Because it is a real and tangible difference to be distinguished.

Look, from the perspective of someone who came into this conversation without a set opinion one way or the other, your arguments seem...pretty specious, tbh. Do you honestly believe that including transwomen will make it harder to deal with health and health advocacy issues related to menstruation? Seriously - I don't see what the obstacle here would be. "We should dedicate more funding to research the causes of PCOS - it's a women's rights issue!" "Well, what about transwomen?" "Just because an issue doesn't affect every single woman equally doesn't mean it's not a women's rights issue." That doesn't seem too difficult, honestly.

It really reminds me of the whole "we can't let the children know about homosexuals because it would confuse them!" argument.

Trans women can still have advocates for issues that affect them specifically. So can black women and gay women. It's called intersectionality.

Responses like this make me think I'm expressing myself poorly. But of course its also possible (and frankly fine) that you just disagree.

I think that when we advocate for things like abortion rights and access to feminine hygiene products etc that it is important to define these things as women's issues because they have historically been used to oppress and abuse women. And that historical oppression has led to the gender inequality issues we see today. And I think that when you start saying things like, 'people who menstruate need tampons' it obfuscates the fact that it is women who need them and they need them because there is centuries of oppression that come with how society has viewed periods historically.

Just like 'I don't see color' has been clearly exposed as a way to hide the systemic oppression faced by black people, 'I don't see gender' is a way to hide systemic oppression faced by women.

I passionately believe in intersectionality. Advocating for women, for black women, for gay women, for trans women etc. But trans women have not experienced a set of things that by their very nature have defined and held women back throughout history. And I, frankly, refuse to try to make that less clear through imprecise language.

How would a trans man who menstruates be any less affected by those same centuries of oppression? Seems like they deal with that oppression PLUS anti-trans oppression, including oppression by those who choose to exclude.

Well, when they assume a male identity they, in fact, do lift themselves above a certain set of discriminatory practices that happen towards women. Especially if they are fully transitioned and pass completely as male. And as I specified above, I believe they need targeted outreach for their own issues (like making sure they are screened for biologically female cancers and assistance with something like menopause if they have not gone through a complete transition) that are legitimately different than the issues a biological female presenting as a woman goes through.

But if they are menstruating they will also face the same oppression due to menstruation.

Unless menstruation itself isn’t the issue. In which case, I’m not sure why you brought it up...

You are not arguing in good faith