Would you take Tufts, Emory, Wash U over UVA?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Clearly, an ivy IS worth it though I think and probably any other top ten if not ivy. But Probably not Emory, Tufts, or Wash U. What about over William and Mary though? They are ranked a fair bit higher than W&M. Clearly, not more than UVA.

Cornell is worth it?

Cornell is an outlier in the Ivy League. It has about 5K more undergraduates than Penn, and Penn is about 3K more than any other Ivy school. Cornell is similar sized to UVA. Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, Brown, and Dartmouth are 5-8K range for undergraduates.

[Anonymous]

It's almost like people are posting here with absolutely no idea how businesses recruit, much less at the undergrad level.

[Anonymous]

Huh. When students are admitted to both Washington University and UVA, 62% choose WUSTL. Must be a lotta weirdos out there.

https://www.parchment.com/c/college/tools/college-cross-admit-comparison.php?compare=Washington+University+in+St.+Louis&with=University+of+Virginia

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Huh. When students are admitted to both Washington University and UVA, 62% choose WUSTL. Must be a lotta weirdos out there.

https://www.parchment.com/c/college/tools/college-cross-admit-comparison.php?compare=Washington+University+in+St.+Louis&with=University+of+Virginia

Probably because those are OOS applicants? UVA OOS is a rip-off, might as well go private.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Huh. When students are admitted to both Washington University and UVA, 62% choose WUSTL. Must be a lotta weirdos out there.

https://www.parchment.com/c/college/tools/college-cross-admit-comparison.php?compare=Washington+University+in+St.+Louis&with=University+of+Virginia

Probably because those are OOS applicants? UVA OOS is a rip-off, might as well go private.

I'm not sure UVA is any more of a ripoff OOS than private colleges are (it wouldn't be tough to argue they are all overpriced), but the prospect of paying OOS tuition certainly changes the math when evaluating UVA vs. private alternatives. I suspect UVA probably is going to offer more loan vs grant aid than those privates in many cases.

[Anonymous]

I know a few families that chose Wake Forest over UVA, so wouldn’t be hard to believe UVA loses in these cross-admit hypotheticals. Private school families generally prefer private school college. If you’re a public school family you’re oblivious to what you’re missing, so your standards are quite low. You’re used to being invisible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know a few families that chose Wake Forest over UVA, so wouldn’t be hard to believe UVA loses in these cross-admit hypotheticals. Private school families generally prefer private school college. If you’re a public school family you’re oblivious to what you’re missing, so your standards are quite low. You’re used to being invisible.

Everything looks quite different when UVA is OOS and costs are equal. The ranking of Wake in USNews has long surprised me, though. It is in the same area as UVA. They've gone test optional, which is a pretty good indicator they feel they would have trouble keeping up with competitors if they didn't do it. I'm sure they have pretty strong students, but a very small percentage of applicants actually have class ranks provided now. This is typical of private schools in particular. The percentage can be as low as 20% of applicants. That means the schools can focus much more on just lowering the admit rate and accepting kids with high standardized tests (e.g. Vandy). They just need to make sure those 20% of applicants with class rank have one that is reasonable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know a few families that chose Wake Forest over UVA, so wouldn’t be hard to believe UVA loses in these cross-admit hypotheticals. Private school families generally prefer private school college. If you’re a public school family you’re oblivious to what you’re missing, so your standards are quite low. You’re used to being invisible.

Everything looks quite different when UVA is OOS and costs are equal. The ranking of Wake in USNews has long surprised me, though. It is in the same area as UVA. They've gone test optional, which is a pretty good indicator they feel they would have trouble keeping up with competitors if they didn't do it. I'm sure they have pretty strong students, but a very small percentage of applicants actually have class ranks provided now. This is typical of private schools in particular. The percentage can be as low as 20% of applicants. That means the schools can focus much more on just lowering the admit rate and accepting kids with high standardized tests (e.g. Vandy). They just need to make sure those 20% of applicants with class rank have one that is reasonable.

But costs are not equal. Wake Forest is $73K a year. https://www.collegetuitioncompare.com/edu/199847/wake-forest-university/tuition/. UVA OOS is $50K, $64K if you add in room and board.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know a few families that chose Wake Forest over UVA, so wouldn’t be hard to believe UVA loses in these cross-admit hypotheticals. Private school families generally prefer private school college. If you’re a public school family you’re oblivious to what you’re missing, so your standards are quite low. You’re used to being invisible.

Everything looks quite different when UVA is OOS and costs are equal. The ranking of Wake in USNews has long surprised me, though. It is in the same area as UVA. They've gone test optional, which is a pretty good indicator they feel they would have trouble keeping up with competitors if they didn't do it. I'm sure they have pretty strong students, but a very small percentage of applicants actually have class ranks provided now. This is typical of private schools in particular. The percentage can be as low as 20% of applicants. That means the schools can focus much more on just lowering the admit rate and accepting kids with high standardized tests (e.g. Vandy). They just need to make sure those 20% of applicants with class rank have one that is reasonable.

But costs are not equal. Wake Forest is $73K a year. https://www.collegetuitioncompare.com/edu/199847/wake-forest-university/tuition/. UVA OOS is $50K, $64K if you add in room and board.

OK. Thanks. Somehow, though, tuition difference on that site is only about $4K. UVA's seems to be averaged or something because McIntire OOS and Engineering OOS are a bit more than Wake. The $14K for Room and Board is also not what is on the UVA site either. It has $16-$17K for OOS. So Commerce (3rd Year) is as much as $73K. Engineering first year is as much as $70.5K. Batten is over $72K. https://sfs.virginia.edu/cost/18-19 Next year goes up even more for OOS. https://sfs.virginia.edu/cost/19-20. Anyway you look at it, it is a lot of money.

I have seen data that indicates OOS at UVA actually pay more than cost of attendance. What that means is OOS subsidizes in-state. Virginia does not actually provide that much general fund to its colleges, only about $9,500 or so per in-state student at UVA, I believe. So that money is augmented with OOS tuition and fees, which is great for in-state but not if you are OOS. I have heard that what keeps UVA's OOS yield down is that some private schools offer more grant aid vs loan aid in their packages.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know a few families that chose Wake Forest over UVA, so wouldn’t be hard to believe UVA loses in these cross-admit hypotheticals. Private school families generally prefer private school college. If you’re a public school family you’re oblivious to what you’re missing, so your standards are quite low. You’re used to being invisible.

Wake is one of those schools that has gone to the rich. Median family income is $221K according to NYT, 8th highest, compared to $155.5K at UVA. Wash U is 2nd highest at $272K. Tufts is $225K.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/college-mobility/wake-forest-university

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know a few families that chose Wake Forest over UVA, so wouldn’t be hard to believe UVA loses in these cross-admit hypotheticals. Private school families generally prefer private school college. If you’re a public school family you’re oblivious to what you’re missing, so your standards are quite low. You’re used to being invisible.

Wake is one of those schools that has gone to the rich. Median family income is $221K according to NYT, 8th highest, compared to $155.5K at UVA. Wash U is 2nd highest at $272K. Tufts is $225K.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/college-mobility/wake-forest-university

Yes the only reason Wake is highly ranked to begin with. It's for wealthy above average students. Not elite... NYU and UNC are better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Clearly, an ivy IS worth it though I think and probably any other top ten if not ivy. But Probably not Emory, Tufts, or Wash U. What about over William and Mary though? They are ranked a fair bit higher than W&M. Clearly, not more than UVA.

Emory, Tufts, WashU vs. W&M in state? I don't think there would really be any outcome advantage for Emory, Tufts WashU over W&M. OP was interested in law admissions. Law schools in my view are interested in stats (LSAT and GPA) and school reputation is probably the tie breaker at the most selective (Harvard, Yale), but the preference there is bestowed largely among the top (Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, etc.), but diminishing rapidly. The same applies for medical school. W&M graduates have essentially the same LSAT and GPA scores as Emory and UVA grads. WashU and Tufts have higher LSATs, but that would be predictable because they have somewhat higher SATs coming in (and for top law schools you should be looking at 75th percentile SAT). WashU and Tufts grads on average may have some advantage due to that somewhat higher LSAT score, but I don't think an applicant from any of these schools would have very different odds if they had the same stats. A Harvard grad probably would, though (although the application reviewer would probably think they had a bad day on the LSAT).

Prestige matters more in some areas. If you want to get a prime spot on Wall Street for instance, they will recruit from select business schools, but they will recruit outside of business schools at top schools like Ivy. They don't do that elsewhere.

Not true! Vandy and Duke say hello. They recruit outside the business school when the undergrad does not have a business school, like the aforementioned.

"Like Ivy" wasn't confined to just Ivy. I just know that when I worked in business consulting, there tended to be more liberal arts and sciences students from schools like Princeton than from elsewhere.

Duke is like Ivy Vandy is not unless we include Cornell. But is that's the case, Emory, WashU are also like Ivy. Tufts also doesn't have an undergraduate business school and has good placement in IB.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know a few families that chose Wake Forest over UVA, so wouldn’t be hard to believe UVA loses in these cross-admit hypotheticals. Private school families generally prefer private school college. If you’re a public school family you’re oblivious to what you’re missing, so your standards are quite low. You’re used to being invisible.

Everything looks quite different when UVA is OOS and costs are equal. The ranking of Wake in USNews has long surprised me, though. It is in the same area as UVA. They've gone test optional, which is a pretty good indicator they feel they would have trouble keeping up with competitors if they didn't do it. I'm sure they have pretty strong students, but a very small percentage of applicants actually have class ranks provided now. This is typical of private schools in particular. The percentage can be as low as 20% of applicants. That means the schools can focus much more on just lowering the admit rate and accepting kids with high standardized tests (e.g. Vandy). They just need to make sure those 20% of applicants with class rank have one that is reasonable.

Wake is strange as even with test optional, there stats are still low. Imagine what the middle 50 range would be if the optional students were quantified.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know a few families that chose Wake Forest over UVA, so wouldn’t be hard to believe UVA loses in these cross-admit hypotheticals. Private school families generally prefer private school college. If you’re a public school family you’re oblivious to what you’re missing, so your standards are quite low. You’re used to being invisible.

Everything looks quite different when UVA is OOS and costs are equal. The ranking of Wake in USNews has long surprised me, though. It is in the same area as UVA. They've gone test optional, which is a pretty good indicator they feel they would have trouble keeping up with competitors if they didn't do it. I'm sure they have pretty strong students, but a very small percentage of applicants actually have class ranks provided now. This is typical of private schools in particular. The percentage can be as low as 20% of applicants. That means the schools can focus much more on just lowering the admit rate and accepting kids with high standardized tests (e.g. Vandy). They just need to make sure those 20% of applicants with class rank have one that is reasonable.

Wake is strange as even with test optional, there stats are still low. Imagine what the middle 50 range would be if the optional students were quantified.

But what I find interesting is that they still manage to rank pretty (26th or 27th without looking) in USNews. They are all the way down at 62 in Forbes ranking, which I know is not as influential, but is probably closer to the way I think of schools (it also combines LACs and National Universities, which makes sense to me because many applying consider both). I do think it is a good school from an education standpoint ("Work Forest") although expensive, but I don't think it is as selective as many near it or below it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know a few families that chose Wake Forest over UVA, so wouldn’t be hard to believe UVA loses in these cross-admit hypotheticals. Private school families generally prefer private school college. If you’re a public school family you’re oblivious to what you’re missing, so your standards are quite low. You’re used to being invisible.

Everything looks quite different when UVA is OOS and costs are equal. The ranking of Wake in USNews has long surprised me, though. It is in the same area as UVA. They've gone test optional, which is a pretty good indicator they feel they would have trouble keeping up with competitors if they didn't do it. I'm sure they have pretty strong students, but a very small percentage of applicants actually have class ranks provided now. This is typical of private schools in particular. The percentage can be as low as 20% of applicants. That means the schools can focus much more on just lowering the admit rate and accepting kids with high standardized tests (e.g. Vandy). They just need to make sure those 20% of applicants with class rank have one that is reasonable.

Wake is strange as even with test optional, there stats are still low. Imagine what the middle 50 range would be if the optional students were quantified.

But what I find interesting is that they still manage to rank pretty (26th or 27th without looking) in USNews. They are all the way down at 62 in Forbes ranking, which I know is not as influential, but is probably closer to the way I think of schools (it also combines LACs and National Universities, which makes sense to me because many applying consider both). I do think it is a good school from an education standpoint ("Work Forest") although expensive, but I don't think it is as selective as many near it or below it.

Wake's academic reputation also lags many of the larger, more complete universities, which isn't surprising, but it doesn't seem to hold them back much in USNews.