Enough is enough with the redshirting!

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:There are two ten year olds in my child’s third grade class. When will a school draw a line with this?

This practice really gets exploited to give kids unfair advantage. From my own experience as the youngest one in my grade, it made me anxious and insecure.

I did great on surface but it was challenging to navigate academic, athletic and social maizes as a little girl who was sent early and then skipped a grade so most my peers were 1-3 years older than me.

That’s the issue, it gets exploited. A mom can sent her child to forest school curriculum they downloaded from etsy when they are 5 and 6 and the just start then in 2nd grade to be with same age peers. A bright child whose parents taught them anything at home would easily catch up. The entire kinder and first grade curriculum can be taught pretty easily. Most want the perceived advantage of being the “oldest and most mature” and just won’t admit it.

This.

If I'd had the resources to homeschool or private school my kid in K, I would have taken it. She is young for her grade and sensitive, and K was a tough transition because her public school did not emphasize outdoor time, play, physical movement, etc. It was a LOT of sitting and listening. It wasn't age appropriate and we all kind of hated it.

But I don't wish I'd redshirted her because even though that environment wasn't great, she's on or above grade level academically and I think it's ideal to have her in a classroom with same age peers. Yes she's on the young side but so are some of the other kids. If she were redshirted she'd be the oldest in class.

So yeah if I could have sent her to an outdoor-focused K program, maybe even K and 1st (though actually our 1st grade teacher was phenomenal and really emphasized outdoor time and by then DD was really ready for the academic focus), I might have done it just because I hate how publics handle kinder. But that doesn't mean it would be a good idea for her to go all the way through school with a younger cohort. That's not the right group for her to be in -- she should be with other kids her age.

I just wish all the kids got a gentler K experience and we would have happily skipped it if we could afford to, but then we would have transferred her into her age-appropriate class in public.

Of course it’s age appropriate. It’s school, not preschool. You and her preschool did not prepare her.

Sitting all day and almost no outdoor or physical activity time is not age appropriate for 5/6 year olds.

If you think kindergarten should be more like the rest of elementary school and that it should be geared toward 6/7 year olds, then advocate for that to be the recommended age cut off.

What doesn't make sense is to passively allow some parents to redshirt and then accommodate them by gearing kindergarten to older children. If you think kids should be at least 6 and turning 7 in K, then make that the age cut off.

This really isn't that complicated.

Schools would appear more rational if “on time” didn’t include four year olds. It makes the whole system look foolish and irrational which of course means parents don’t trust the system and have to make their own choices. 5 by the first day of August for schools that start in August makes sense.

Except August and summer is acceptable for redshirt. I know exactly 0 kids who started at 4. Most start at 5. And no one is talking about the late spring or summer redshirts, we are talking about the kids who are pushing what is appropriate.

The kids are pushing it? Or the parents and admins who seem to think this is best for a particular child and didn't need your consent.

You’re right. I have a neurotypical kid who was on time for everything and socialy keeping up with peers. I really don’t know what it would be like to have developmental issues. Perhaps if we were in that situation we would have had to make the same decision not to send them because they can’t keep up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are two ten year olds in my child’s third grade class. When will a school draw a line with this?

This practice really gets exploited to give kids unfair advantage. From my own experience as the youngest one in my grade, it made me anxious and insecure.

I did great on surface but it was challenging to navigate academic, athletic and social maizes as a little girl who was sent early and then skipped a grade so most my peers were 1-3 years older than me.

That’s the issue, it gets exploited. A mom can sent her child to forest school curriculum they downloaded from etsy when they are 5 and 6 and the just start then in 2nd grade to be with same age peers. A bright child whose parents taught them anything at home would easily catch up. The entire kinder and first grade curriculum can be taught pretty easily. Most want the perceived advantage of being the “oldest and most mature” and just won’t admit it.

This.

If I'd had the resources to homeschool or private school my kid in K, I would have taken it. She is young for her grade and sensitive, and K was a tough transition because her public school did not emphasize outdoor time, play, physical movement, etc. It was a LOT of sitting and listening. It wasn't age appropriate and we all kind of hated it.

But I don't wish I'd redshirted her because even though that environment wasn't great, she's on or above grade level academically and I think it's ideal to have her in a classroom with same age peers. Yes she's on the young side but so are some of the other kids. If she were redshirted she'd be the oldest in class.

So yeah if I could have sent her to an outdoor-focused K program, maybe even K and 1st (though actually our 1st grade teacher was phenomenal and really emphasized outdoor time and by then DD was really ready for the academic focus), I might have done it just because I hate how publics handle kinder. But that doesn't mean it would be a good idea for her to go all the way through school with a younger cohort. That's not the right group for her to be in -- she should be with other kids her age.

I just wish all the kids got a gentler K experience and we would have happily skipped it if we could afford to, but then we would have transferred her into her age-appropriate class in public.

Of course it’s age appropriate. It’s school, not preschool. You and her preschool did not prepare her.

Sitting all day and almost no outdoor or physical activity time is not age appropriate for 5/6 year olds.

If you think kindergarten should be more like the rest of elementary school and that it should be geared toward 6/7 year olds, then advocate for that to be the recommended age cut off.

What doesn't make sense is to passively allow some parents to redshirt and then accommodate them by gearing kindergarten to older children. If you think kids should be at least 6 and turning 7 in K, then make that the age cut off.

This really isn't that complicated.

Schools would appear more rational if “on time” didn’t include four year olds. It makes the whole system look foolish and irrational which of course means parents don’t trust the system and have to make their own choices. 5 by the first day of August for schools that start in August makes sense.

Except August and summer is acceptable for redshirt. I know exactly 0 kids who started at 4. Most start at 5. And no one is talking about the late spring or summer redshirts, we are talking about the kids who are pushing what is appropriate.

The same rules that make an August birthday a parents decision make an October birthday a parents decision. If you don’t like those rules, start working for age-appropriate kindergarten and more parents will choose to send “on time”

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Public schools aren’t retaining anyone because that costs $$$. I’ve only heard of retention being offered when a kid missed a lot of a grade due to something like a serious medical issue, or at the end of the Covid school years - 2019-20 or 2020-21 - if a kid didn’t progress during the closures. My neighbor had a young for grade 1st grader in 20-21 and FCPS did offer to let her repeat 1st in person.

But let this thread be a heads up to everyone: redshirting is common, perhaps even expected, in private schools, especially for the younger for grade kids. So plan accordingly.

+1, and I would say it’s increasingly common in public school among parents who read the data on developmentally appropriate settings for 4-5. So, assume if you send a four year old they’ll be youngest by a year+, and an early five year old by a year. None of this is secret, or unavailable information to you.

Since most public schools do an age cut off around September 1st, the number of kids attending K at age 4 is very small (and even people who complain about excessive redshirting don't complain about redshirting a kid who would be 4 during the "normal" cut off). In NY (which is the only place with a midyear cut off that results in a lot of 4 year olds being eligible for K) it's common for people to redshirt those kids and no one complains about it.

The only redshirting people complain about is when people start redshirting kids who would be well over 5 when starting K but they hold them back anyway. Yes, in some privates that's common place, but the school generally encourages it and everyone has a chance to do it -- they like having an older class of K students and often they will strongly encourage redshirting summer or late spring birthdays. Some schools even offer a transitional year for young K students before taking the regular K class, so you still wind up with a fairly age-homogenous class.

But in public that's not the case, and when some parents start deciding their April or May birthday kid needs another year, it can leave other parents stuck with the consequences of those actions without warning. No one is going to get mad that a parent redshirted so their kid could start K at 5, but when you see kids starting K at 6 and a half, it becomes an issue.

Please yell at me now and tell me I'm a "crazy anti-redshirter" for agreeing this specific issue is a problem.

As someone with a young for grade kid, I think it is absolutely insane to consider this a problem whatsoever, and really makes you sound like someone who has no experience with any real problems in life.

My kid with an August birthday who I sent on time (she started K at 5 but was among the youngest in her grade) was viciously bullied by a redshirted child in 1st grade. My kid was 6 years old for the entirety of 1st grade. The bullying child turned 8 in September and was signficantly bigger and taller. Redshirting played a major role in the bullying because while this one child was the leader, there were many older kids in the classroom due to redshirting and when the bully would attack/provoke my kid, she'd cry, and then all the older kids would round on her and call her a baby and tease her for being small and young (she is average height for her age).

I had no idea how prevalent redshirting was when I enrolled my kid in K. She was academically and socially ready for a K classroom full of 5 and 6 year old children. In fact she continues to be at the top of her grade academically and she is well liked by teachers for being a good listener who follows directions and is helpful and kind in the classroom (something that apparently the extra years of preschool or staying home did not help instill in these redshirted kids who are merely bigger and older, not more mature).

I absolutely resent that my child's classroom environment has been dominated by older children who I think should have spent their 5/6 year in K learning out to function in elementary school, but instead spent it elsewhere and arrived at elementary school with their own ideas about how school should work. I resent how common bullying and relational aggression are at the school because of these older-but-less-mature kids.

Call me a crazy anti-redshirted if you want. I think redshirting sucks. Kids should start school at the same age so that they learn the same skills and are generally at the same developmental level. Kids with developmental delays can/should be held back to accommodate their delays, but it shouldn't be at the parents' discretion.

We will be moving school districts before these older kids hit puberty in 3rd grade and we have to deal with that.

As a parent who doesn't care about redshirting one way or another (and has both middle-of-age-for grade and young-for-grade kids, none old-for-grade): the bullying isn't because your kid is small. Bullies will find literally anything to gang up on kids about. One of my kids was bulled for not watching Spongebob Squarepants in a late elementary grade. Does that make sense as a thing to mock a kid over? No. But my kid was a prickly and kind of hard-to-get-to-know kid, so of course they were a target. The actual thing to make fun of was incidental to the act of piling on.

And it's possible (probable?) this older kid is lashing out because:
- they do have delays and you have no idea and the delays are social
- they feel embarassed about your kid doing as well when they are so much older.

PP here. Of course bullying can happen for a whole variety of reasons.

But at my kid's specific school, in specific classrooms where there are a large percent of redshirted kids including one that was significantly older, the bullying was closely related to having a cohort of older, bigger, unsocialized kids. My DD was not the only child targeted, but all the children who were bullied were "on time" kids who were on the younger end of normal for the grade. All the bullies were the oldest kids in class.

Also, it's not just about the age difference. It's also that these redshirted kids were not socialized into elementary school when they were young enough for it help. They arrived at K too old and less malleable. In my child's 1st grade class, those older kids RAN the classroom. This year my kid is in 2nd and due to the bullying issues last year, my kid and others who were targeted are in a classroom without any of the much older kids. The classroom is significantly better, with less conflict and fewer behavioral issues.

I don't have any issue with moderate redshirting for kids with summer birthdays. I don't think you should be allowed to redshirt a kid with a birthday during the school year unless there is a clear reason why delaying kindergarten will help. And I actually think a lot of developmental delays might be made worse by redshirting unless you can show the kids are going to get services to improve the situation. Perhaps some of these delays would be best addressed by having the kid in a classroom with other kids and receiving services through the school.

I honestly do not understand why you continue to keep your child in a school where your DC experiences significant bullying and you believe the classroom activities and level are so wildly inappropriate. It seems weird to me.

You seem very ignorant of the reality that most parents experience. Most parents can’t just switch schools out of the blue.

Right. Which leads parents to make careful decisions about when their kids start school. For example— not sending a kid who may struggle to kindergarten too early.

Or, send our kid and get them the help they need so they don’t struggle.

What "help" do you recommend?

IEP’s. Soooo many kids have them. Professional help often paid for by the school district. I’ve see kids get services for adhd, dyslexia, occupational therapy… I think many people like you overestimate your ability and underestimate the ability of professionals with undergrad and grad degrees in education and therapy.

Redshirting doesn’t prevent anyone from accessing these services and IEP. If you trust the professionals, then trust the ones that recommended to us that we hold our kids back, which is exactly what we did!

Most are saying hold back as it makes you happy. Most aren’t putting their kids in services. They also aren’t thinking of the future when these kids are in hs and they are 19-20 and taking classes with 13-14 year olds.

There’s no evidence that “most aren’t putting their kids in services.” You made that up. You have no idea which kids are being held back for issues that could be alleviated with services nor do you know what services their parents are getting.

If a child is being held back for social, emotional or academic reasons the parents shoudl be forced to have them in services to get them caught up. Any issue should be addressed and not ignored and hoping that waiting a year will fix it. These kids who are held back are not age appropiate as they are being compared to much younger kids, so they are much more immature than someone on grade level and they will not have the opportunity to truely catch up as the oldest.

There is no reason for forced services for being redshirted because they aren’t needing to be “caught up.” Aka they aren’t officially behind. The school district or state sets the term for this. In ours, the rules were enroll in school by age 6, K not required at all by law.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Public schools aren’t retaining anyone because that costs $$$. I’ve only heard of retention being offered when a kid missed a lot of a grade due to something like a serious medical issue, or at the end of the Covid school years - 2019-20 or 2020-21 - if a kid didn’t progress during the closures. My neighbor had a young for grade 1st grader in 20-21 and FCPS did offer to let her repeat 1st in person.

But let this thread be a heads up to everyone: redshirting is common, perhaps even expected, in private schools, especially for the younger for grade kids. So plan accordingly.

+1, and I would say it’s increasingly common in public school among parents who read the data on developmentally appropriate settings for 4-5. So, assume if you send a four year old they’ll be youngest by a year+, and an early five year old by a year. None of this is secret, or unavailable information to you.

Since most public schools do an age cut off around September 1st, the number of kids attending K at age 4 is very small (and even people who complain about excessive redshirting don't complain about redshirting a kid who would be 4 during the "normal" cut off). In NY (which is the only place with a midyear cut off that results in a lot of 4 year olds being eligible for K) it's common for people to redshirt those kids and no one complains about it.

The only redshirting people complain about is when people start redshirting kids who would be well over 5 when starting K but they hold them back anyway. Yes, in some privates that's common place, but the school generally encourages it and everyone has a chance to do it -- they like having an older class of K students and often they will strongly encourage redshirting summer or late spring birthdays. Some schools even offer a transitional year for young K students before taking the regular K class, so you still wind up with a fairly age-homogenous class.

But in public that's not the case, and when some parents start deciding their April or May birthday kid needs another year, it can leave other parents stuck with the consequences of those actions without warning. No one is going to get mad that a parent redshirted so their kid could start K at 5, but when you see kids starting K at 6 and a half, it becomes an issue.

Please yell at me now and tell me I'm a "crazy anti-redshirter" for agreeing this specific issue is a problem.

As someone with a young for grade kid, I think it is absolutely insane to consider this a problem whatsoever, and really makes you sound like someone who has no experience with any real problems in life.

My kid with an August birthday who I sent on time (she started K at 5 but was among the youngest in her grade) was viciously bullied by a redshirted child in 1st grade. My kid was 6 years old for the entirety of 1st grade. The bullying child turned 8 in September and was signficantly bigger and taller. Redshirting played a major role in the bullying because while this one child was the leader, there were many older kids in the classroom due to redshirting and when the bully would attack/provoke my kid, she'd cry, and then all the older kids would round on her and call her a baby and tease her for being small and young (she is average height for her age).

I had no idea how prevalent redshirting was when I enrolled my kid in K. She was academically and socially ready for a K classroom full of 5 and 6 year old children. In fact she continues to be at the top of her grade academically and she is well liked by teachers for being a good listener who follows directions and is helpful and kind in the classroom (something that apparently the extra years of preschool or staying home did not help instill in these redshirted kids who are merely bigger and older, not more mature).

I absolutely resent that my child's classroom environment has been dominated by older children who I think should have spent their 5/6 year in K learning out to function in elementary school, but instead spent it elsewhere and arrived at elementary school with their own ideas about how school should work. I resent how common bullying and relational aggression are at the school because of these older-but-less-mature kids.

Call me a crazy anti-redshirted if you want. I think redshirting sucks. Kids should start school at the same age so that they learn the same skills and are generally at the same developmental level. Kids with developmental delays can/should be held back to accommodate their delays, but it shouldn't be at the parents' discretion.

We will be moving school districts before these older kids hit puberty in 3rd grade and we have to deal with that.

As a parent who doesn't care about redshirting one way or another (and has both middle-of-age-for grade and young-for-grade kids, none old-for-grade): the bullying isn't because your kid is small. Bullies will find literally anything to gang up on kids about. One of my kids was bulled for not watching Spongebob Squarepants in a late elementary grade. Does that make sense as a thing to mock a kid over? No. But my kid was a prickly and kind of hard-to-get-to-know kid, so of course they were a target. The actual thing to make fun of was incidental to the act of piling on.

And it's possible (probable?) this older kid is lashing out because:
- they do have delays and you have no idea and the delays are social
- they feel embarassed about your kid doing as well when they are so much older.

PP here. Of course bullying can happen for a whole variety of reasons.

But at my kid's specific school, in specific classrooms where there are a large percent of redshirted kids including one that was significantly older, the bullying was closely related to having a cohort of older, bigger, unsocialized kids. My DD was not the only child targeted, but all the children who were bullied were "on time" kids who were on the younger end of normal for the grade. All the bullies were the oldest kids in class.

Also, it's not just about the age difference. It's also that these redshirted kids were not socialized into elementary school when they were young enough for it help. They arrived at K too old and less malleable. In my child's 1st grade class, those older kids RAN the classroom. This year my kid is in 2nd and due to the bullying issues last year, my kid and others who were targeted are in a classroom without any of the much older kids. The classroom is significantly better, with less conflict and fewer behavioral issues.

I don't have any issue with moderate redshirting for kids with summer birthdays. I don't think you should be allowed to redshirt a kid with a birthday during the school year unless there is a clear reason why delaying kindergarten will help. And I actually think a lot of developmental delays might be made worse by redshirting unless you can show the kids are going to get services to improve the situation. Perhaps some of these delays would be best addressed by having the kid in a classroom with other kids and receiving services through the school.

I honestly do not understand why you continue to keep your child in a school where your DC experiences significant bullying and you believe the classroom activities and level are so wildly inappropriate. It seems weird to me.

You seem very ignorant of the reality that most parents experience. Most parents can’t just switch schools out of the blue.

Right. Which leads parents to make careful decisions about when their kids start school. For example— not sending a kid who may struggle to kindergarten too early.

Or, send our kid and get them the help they need so they don’t struggle.

What "help" do you recommend?

IEP’s. Soooo many kids have them. Professional help often paid for by the school district. I’ve see kids get services for adhd, dyslexia, occupational therapy… I think many people like you overestimate your ability and underestimate the ability of professionals with undergrad and grad degrees in education and therapy.

IEPs are for children with disabilities. You have to qualify for them. You can't just "get an IEP."

- Professional with an undergrad and grad degree in education and psychology.

Then what is the issue you feel that you can’t send a 5 to Kinder? I’m telling you, you’re making it something it’s not. It’s not that hard. Trust me.

Some kids just need a bit more time. That’s the help. It’s so weird you can’t understand that. Professionals and parents agree. Busy bodies with faux concerns about other people’s children don’t get an opinion.

No, they don’t. They need to be in school with age appropriate peers

Could you please share the data you’re sourcing this from? That age-identical classrooms are critical to children’s success? Moreso than the developmental appropriateness of the environment? Because candidly I think you’re making this up as you go along.

My four year old and her seven year old cousin are best friends. It’s amazing to see how she brings out leadership and compassion in her older cousin and how her cousin brings out courage and creativity in her.

The discussion is about peers and a child held back isn't necessarily going to be a leader just because they are older. It harms everyone and when you get to HS, do you want your 14 year old in classes with 19-20 year olds as that is whats happening.

No, it’s not. Redshirted kids are 18 their senior year, at most turning 19 in like May or June.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are two ten year olds in my child’s third grade class. When will a school draw a line with this?

This practice really gets exploited to give kids unfair advantage. From my own experience as the youngest one in my grade, it made me anxious and insecure.

I did great on surface but it was challenging to navigate academic, athletic and social maizes as a little girl who was sent early and then skipped a grade so most my peers were 1-3 years older than me.

That’s the issue, it gets exploited. A mom can sent her child to forest school curriculum they downloaded from etsy when they are 5 and 6 and the just start then in 2nd grade to be with same age peers. A bright child whose parents taught them anything at home would easily catch up. The entire kinder and first grade curriculum can be taught pretty easily. Most want the perceived advantage of being the “oldest and most mature” and just won’t admit it.

This.

If I'd had the resources to homeschool or private school my kid in K, I would have taken it. She is young for her grade and sensitive, and K was a tough transition because her public school did not emphasize outdoor time, play, physical movement, etc. It was a LOT of sitting and listening. It wasn't age appropriate and we all kind of hated it.

But I don't wish I'd redshirted her because even though that environment wasn't great, she's on or above grade level academically and I think it's ideal to have her in a classroom with same age peers. Yes she's on the young side but so are some of the other kids. If she were redshirted she'd be the oldest in class.

So yeah if I could have sent her to an outdoor-focused K program, maybe even K and 1st (though actually our 1st grade teacher was phenomenal and really emphasized outdoor time and by then DD was really ready for the academic focus), I might have done it just because I hate how publics handle kinder. But that doesn't mean it would be a good idea for her to go all the way through school with a younger cohort. That's not the right group for her to be in -- she should be with other kids her age.

I just wish all the kids got a gentler K experience and we would have happily skipped it if we could afford to, but then we would have transferred her into her age-appropriate class in public.

Of course it’s age appropriate. It’s school, not preschool. You and her preschool did not prepare her.

Sitting all day and almost no outdoor or physical activity time is not age appropriate for 5/6 year olds.

If you think kindergarten should be more like the rest of elementary school and that it should be geared toward 6/7 year olds, then advocate for that to be the recommended age cut off.

What doesn't make sense is to passively allow some parents to redshirt and then accommodate them by gearing kindergarten to older children. If you think kids should be at least 6 and turning 7 in K, then make that the age cut off.

This really isn't that complicated.

Schools would appear more rational if “on time” didn’t include four year olds. It makes the whole system look foolish and irrational which of course means parents don’t trust the system and have to make their own choices. 5 by the first day of August for schools that start in August makes sense.

Except August and summer is acceptable for redshirt. I know exactly 0 kids who started at 4. Most start at 5. And no one is talking about the late spring or summer redshirts, we are talking about the kids who are pushing what is appropriate.

The kids are pushing it? Or the parents and admins who seem to think this is best for a particular child and didn't need your consent.

You’re right. I have a neurotypical kid who was on time for everything and socialy keeping up with peers. I really don’t know what it would be like to have developmental issues. Perhaps if we were in that situation we would have had to make the same decision not to send them because they can’t keep up.

Now you're getting it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Public schools aren’t retaining anyone because that costs $$$. I’ve only heard of retention being offered when a kid missed a lot of a grade due to something like a serious medical issue, or at the end of the Covid school years - 2019-20 or 2020-21 - if a kid didn’t progress during the closures. My neighbor had a young for grade 1st grader in 20-21 and FCPS did offer to let her repeat 1st in person.

But let this thread be a heads up to everyone: redshirting is common, perhaps even expected, in private schools, especially for the younger for grade kids. So plan accordingly.

+1, and I would say it’s increasingly common in public school among parents who read the data on developmentally appropriate settings for 4-5. So, assume if you send a four year old they’ll be youngest by a year+, and an early five year old by a year. None of this is secret, or unavailable information to you.

Since most public schools do an age cut off around September 1st, the number of kids attending K at age 4 is very small (and even people who complain about excessive redshirting don't complain about redshirting a kid who would be 4 during the "normal" cut off). In NY (which is the only place with a midyear cut off that results in a lot of 4 year olds being eligible for K) it's common for people to redshirt those kids and no one complains about it.

The only redshirting people complain about is when people start redshirting kids who would be well over 5 when starting K but they hold them back anyway. Yes, in some privates that's common place, but the school generally encourages it and everyone has a chance to do it -- they like having an older class of K students and often they will strongly encourage redshirting summer or late spring birthdays. Some schools even offer a transitional year for young K students before taking the regular K class, so you still wind up with a fairly age-homogenous class.

But in public that's not the case, and when some parents start deciding their April or May birthday kid needs another year, it can leave other parents stuck with the consequences of those actions without warning. No one is going to get mad that a parent redshirted so their kid could start K at 5, but when you see kids starting K at 6 and a half, it becomes an issue.

Please yell at me now and tell me I'm a "crazy anti-redshirter" for agreeing this specific issue is a problem.

As someone with a young for grade kid, I think it is absolutely insane to consider this a problem whatsoever, and really makes you sound like someone who has no experience with any real problems in life.

My kid with an August birthday who I sent on time (she started K at 5 but was among the youngest in her grade) was viciously bullied by a redshirted child in 1st grade. My kid was 6 years old for the entirety of 1st grade. The bullying child turned 8 in September and was signficantly bigger and taller. Redshirting played a major role in the bullying because while this one child was the leader, there were many older kids in the classroom due to redshirting and when the bully would attack/provoke my kid, she'd cry, and then all the older kids would round on her and call her a baby and tease her for being small and young (she is average height for her age).

I had no idea how prevalent redshirting was when I enrolled my kid in K. She was academically and socially ready for a K classroom full of 5 and 6 year old children. In fact she continues to be at the top of her grade academically and she is well liked by teachers for being a good listener who follows directions and is helpful and kind in the classroom (something that apparently the extra years of preschool or staying home did not help instill in these redshirted kids who are merely bigger and older, not more mature).

I absolutely resent that my child's classroom environment has been dominated by older children who I think should have spent their 5/6 year in K learning out to function in elementary school, but instead spent it elsewhere and arrived at elementary school with their own ideas about how school should work. I resent how common bullying and relational aggression are at the school because of these older-but-less-mature kids.

Call me a crazy anti-redshirted if you want. I think redshirting sucks. Kids should start school at the same age so that they learn the same skills and are generally at the same developmental level. Kids with developmental delays can/should be held back to accommodate their delays, but it shouldn't be at the parents' discretion.

We will be moving school districts before these older kids hit puberty in 3rd grade and we have to deal with that.

As a parent who doesn't care about redshirting one way or another (and has both middle-of-age-for grade and young-for-grade kids, none old-for-grade): the bullying isn't because your kid is small. Bullies will find literally anything to gang up on kids about. One of my kids was bulled for not watching Spongebob Squarepants in a late elementary grade. Does that make sense as a thing to mock a kid over? No. But my kid was a prickly and kind of hard-to-get-to-know kid, so of course they were a target. The actual thing to make fun of was incidental to the act of piling on.

And it's possible (probable?) this older kid is lashing out because:
- they do have delays and you have no idea and the delays are social
- they feel embarassed about your kid doing as well when they are so much older.

PP here. Of course bullying can happen for a whole variety of reasons.

But at my kid's specific school, in specific classrooms where there are a large percent of redshirted kids including one that was significantly older, the bullying was closely related to having a cohort of older, bigger, unsocialized kids. My DD was not the only child targeted, but all the children who were bullied were "on time" kids who were on the younger end of normal for the grade. All the bullies were the oldest kids in class.

Also, it's not just about the age difference. It's also that these redshirted kids were not socialized into elementary school when they were young enough for it help. They arrived at K too old and less malleable. In my child's 1st grade class, those older kids RAN the classroom. This year my kid is in 2nd and due to the bullying issues last year, my kid and others who were targeted are in a classroom without any of the much older kids. The classroom is significantly better, with less conflict and fewer behavioral issues.

I don't have any issue with moderate redshirting for kids with summer birthdays. I don't think you should be allowed to redshirt a kid with a birthday during the school year unless there is a clear reason why delaying kindergarten will help. And I actually think a lot of developmental delays might be made worse by redshirting unless you can show the kids are going to get services to improve the situation. Perhaps some of these delays would be best addressed by having the kid in a classroom with other kids and receiving services through the school.

I honestly do not understand why you continue to keep your child in a school where your DC experiences significant bullying and you believe the classroom activities and level are so wildly inappropriate. It seems weird to me.

You seem very ignorant of the reality that most parents experience. Most parents can’t just switch schools out of the blue.

Right. Which leads parents to make careful decisions about when their kids start school. For example— not sending a kid who may struggle to kindergarten too early.

Or, send our kid and get them the help they need so they don’t struggle.

What "help" do you recommend?

IEP’s. Soooo many kids have them. Professional help often paid for by the school district. I’ve see kids get services for adhd, dyslexia, occupational therapy… I think many people like you overestimate your ability and underestimate the ability of professionals with undergrad and grad degrees in education and therapy.

Redshirting doesn’t prevent anyone from accessing these services and IEP. If you trust the professionals, then trust the ones that recommended to us that we hold our kids back, which is exactly what we did!

Most are saying hold back as it makes you happy. Most aren’t putting their kids in services. They also aren’t thinking of the future when these kids are in hs and they are 19-20 and taking classes with 13-14 year olds.

Why aren’t the parents of 13-14 year olds concerned and doing something different? The parents of other kids are being good parents. You can’t expect other people to pave the road for you.

Parent of young for grade high school kid here. 👋

I literally could not care less about whether my kid is in classes with older teens. And my friends with redshirted kids (who are thriving) don’t care either, the other way.

The only people who care about this are badly socialized adults who can’t teach social skills to their kids. That’s it.

Even if you are correct, that doesn't address the problem of older (red-shirted) kids bullying younger kids (who went on time) in the same grade. Its only when red-shirted kids cause problems for the younger kids in their grade that anyone cares. Surely you can see that.

Ridiculous - everyone cares about bullying but it’s not about the ages of the kids doing it. ALL bullying behavior should be addressed and stopped by the school. And no one here is suggesting otherwise!

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Anonymous wrote:Sure you can do it but why do you want a way older kid in the grade? It’s just annoying

A ten year old doesn’t make sense. Redshirting gets you to 9 years old not 10 unless they are ten for like, a week in June or something.

My DD is in 4th, but last year, there were a handful of spring redshirts that turned 10 in March/April/May. I'm not sure I've ever heard of kids being 10 before Christmas though.

Yes, if OP were posting in May I would understand. But this is early December so I’m not buying it.

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Anonymous wrote:There are two ten year olds in my child’s third grade class. When will a school draw a line with this?

This practice really gets exploited to give kids unfair advantage. From my own experience as the youngest one in my grade, it made me anxious and insecure.

I did great on surface but it was challenging to navigate academic, athletic and social maizes as a little girl who was sent early and then skipped a grade so most my peers were 1-3 years older than me.

That’s the issue, it gets exploited. A mom can sent her child to forest school curriculum they downloaded from etsy when they are 5 and 6 and the just start then in 2nd grade to be with same age peers. A bright child whose parents taught them anything at home would easily catch up. The entire kinder and first grade curriculum can be taught pretty easily. Most want the perceived advantage of being the “oldest and most mature” and just won’t admit it.

This.

If I'd had the resources to homeschool or private school my kid in K, I would have taken it. She is young for her grade and sensitive, and K was a tough transition because her public school did not emphasize outdoor time, play, physical movement, etc. It was a LOT of sitting and listening. It wasn't age appropriate and we all kind of hated it.

But I don't wish I'd redshirted her because even though that environment wasn't great, she's on or above grade level academically and I think it's ideal to have her in a classroom with same age peers. Yes she's on the young side but so are some of the other kids. If she were redshirted she'd be the oldest in class.

So yeah if I could have sent her to an outdoor-focused K program, maybe even K and 1st (though actually our 1st grade teacher was phenomenal and really emphasized outdoor time and by then DD was really ready for the academic focus), I might have done it just because I hate how publics handle kinder. But that doesn't mean it would be a good idea for her to go all the way through school with a younger cohort. That's not the right group for her to be in -- she should be with other kids her age.

I just wish all the kids got a gentler K experience and we would have happily skipped it if we could afford to, but then we would have transferred her into her age-appropriate class in public.

Of course it’s age appropriate. It’s school, not preschool. You and her preschool did not prepare her.

Sitting all day and almost no outdoor or physical activity time is not age appropriate for 5/6 year olds.

If you think kindergarten should be more like the rest of elementary school and that it should be geared toward 6/7 year olds, then advocate for that to be the recommended age cut off.

What doesn't make sense is to passively allow some parents to redshirt and then accommodate them by gearing kindergarten to older children. If you think kids should be at least 6 and turning 7 in K, then make that the age cut off.

This really isn't that complicated.

Schools would appear more rational if “on time” didn’t include four year olds. It makes the whole system look foolish and irrational which of course means parents don’t trust the system and have to make their own choices. 5 by the first day of August for schools that start in August makes sense.

Except August and summer is acceptable for redshirt. I know exactly 0 kids who started at 4. Most start at 5. And no one is talking about the late spring or summer redshirts, we are talking about the kids who are pushing what is appropriate.

The same rules that make an August birthday a parents decision make an October birthday a parents decision. If you don’t like those rules, start working for age-appropriate kindergarten and more parents will choose to send “on time”

NP, I do think there needs to be more conversations about age appropriate kindergarten. My young for grade kindergartener really, really struggled, and she's neurotypical, a rule follower and well above grade level academically. But our public K was way too much seat time and not enough fun and play.

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Anonymous wrote:Public schools aren’t retaining anyone because that costs $$$. I’ve only heard of retention being offered when a kid missed a lot of a grade due to something like a serious medical issue, or at the end of the Covid school years - 2019-20 or 2020-21 - if a kid didn’t progress during the closures. My neighbor had a young for grade 1st grader in 20-21 and FCPS did offer to let her repeat 1st in person.

But let this thread be a heads up to everyone: redshirting is common, perhaps even expected, in private schools, especially for the younger for grade kids. So plan accordingly.

+1, and I would say it’s increasingly common in public school among parents who read the data on developmentally appropriate settings for 4-5. So, assume if you send a four year old they’ll be youngest by a year+, and an early five year old by a year. None of this is secret, or unavailable information to you.

Since most public schools do an age cut off around September 1st, the number of kids attending K at age 4 is very small (and even people who complain about excessive redshirting don't complain about redshirting a kid who would be 4 during the "normal" cut off). In NY (which is the only place with a midyear cut off that results in a lot of 4 year olds being eligible for K) it's common for people to redshirt those kids and no one complains about it.

The only redshirting people complain about is when people start redshirting kids who would be well over 5 when starting K but they hold them back anyway. Yes, in some privates that's common place, but the school generally encourages it and everyone has a chance to do it -- they like having an older class of K students and often they will strongly encourage redshirting summer or late spring birthdays. Some schools even offer a transitional year for young K students before taking the regular K class, so you still wind up with a fairly age-homogenous class.

But in public that's not the case, and when some parents start deciding their April or May birthday kid needs another year, it can leave other parents stuck with the consequences of those actions without warning. No one is going to get mad that a parent redshirted so their kid could start K at 5, but when you see kids starting K at 6 and a half, it becomes an issue.

Please yell at me now and tell me I'm a "crazy anti-redshirter" for agreeing this specific issue is a problem.

As someone with a young for grade kid, I think it is absolutely insane to consider this a problem whatsoever, and really makes you sound like someone who has no experience with any real problems in life.

My kid with an August birthday who I sent on time (she started K at 5 but was among the youngest in her grade) was viciously bullied by a redshirted child in 1st grade. My kid was 6 years old for the entirety of 1st grade. The bullying child turned 8 in September and was signficantly bigger and taller. Redshirting played a major role in the bullying because while this one child was the leader, there were many older kids in the classroom due to redshirting and when the bully would attack/provoke my kid, she'd cry, and then all the older kids would round on her and call her a baby and tease her for being small and young (she is average height for her age).

I had no idea how prevalent redshirting was when I enrolled my kid in K. She was academically and socially ready for a K classroom full of 5 and 6 year old children. In fact she continues to be at the top of her grade academically and she is well liked by teachers for being a good listener who follows directions and is helpful and kind in the classroom (something that apparently the extra years of preschool or staying home did not help instill in these redshirted kids who are merely bigger and older, not more mature).

I absolutely resent that my child's classroom environment has been dominated by older children who I think should have spent their 5/6 year in K learning out to function in elementary school, but instead spent it elsewhere and arrived at elementary school with their own ideas about how school should work. I resent how common bullying and relational aggression are at the school because of these older-but-less-mature kids.

Call me a crazy anti-redshirted if you want. I think redshirting sucks. Kids should start school at the same age so that they learn the same skills and are generally at the same developmental level. Kids with developmental delays can/should be held back to accommodate their delays, but it shouldn't be at the parents' discretion.

We will be moving school districts before these older kids hit puberty in 3rd grade and we have to deal with that.

As a parent who doesn't care about redshirting one way or another (and has both middle-of-age-for grade and young-for-grade kids, none old-for-grade): the bullying isn't because your kid is small. Bullies will find literally anything to gang up on kids about. One of my kids was bulled for not watching Spongebob Squarepants in a late elementary grade. Does that make sense as a thing to mock a kid over? No. But my kid was a prickly and kind of hard-to-get-to-know kid, so of course they were a target. The actual thing to make fun of was incidental to the act of piling on.

And it's possible (probable?) this older kid is lashing out because:
- they do have delays and you have no idea and the delays are social
- they feel embarassed about your kid doing as well when they are so much older.

PP here. Of course bullying can happen for a whole variety of reasons.

But at my kid's specific school, in specific classrooms where there are a large percent of redshirted kids including one that was significantly older, the bullying was closely related to having a cohort of older, bigger, unsocialized kids. My DD was not the only child targeted, but all the children who were bullied were "on time" kids who were on the younger end of normal for the grade. All the bullies were the oldest kids in class.

Also, it's not just about the age difference. It's also that these redshirted kids were not socialized into elementary school when they were young enough for it help. They arrived at K too old and less malleable. In my child's 1st grade class, those older kids RAN the classroom. This year my kid is in 2nd and due to the bullying issues last year, my kid and others who were targeted are in a classroom without any of the much older kids. The classroom is significantly better, with less conflict and fewer behavioral issues.

I don't have any issue with moderate redshirting for kids with summer birthdays. I don't think you should be allowed to redshirt a kid with a birthday during the school year unless there is a clear reason why delaying kindergarten will help. And I actually think a lot of developmental delays might be made worse by redshirting unless you can show the kids are going to get services to improve the situation. Perhaps some of these delays would be best addressed by having the kid in a classroom with other kids and receiving services through the school.

I honestly do not understand why you continue to keep your child in a school where your DC experiences significant bullying and you believe the classroom activities and level are so wildly inappropriate. It seems weird to me.

You seem very ignorant of the reality that most parents experience. Most parents can’t just switch schools out of the blue.

Right. Which leads parents to make careful decisions about when their kids start school. For example— not sending a kid who may struggle to kindergarten too early.

Or, send our kid and get them the help they need so they don’t struggle.

What "help" do you recommend?

IEP’s. Soooo many kids have them. Professional help often paid for by the school district. I’ve see kids get services for adhd, dyslexia, occupational therapy… I think many people like you overestimate your ability and underestimate the ability of professionals with undergrad and grad degrees in education and therapy.

IEPs are for children with disabilities. You have to qualify for them. You can't just "get an IEP."

- Professional with an undergrad and grad degree in education and psychology.

Then what is the issue you feel that you can’t send a 5 to Kinder? I’m telling you, you’re making it something it’s not. It’s not that hard. Trust me.

Some kids just need a bit more time. That’s the help. It’s so weird you can’t understand that. Professionals and parents agree. Busy bodies with faux concerns about other people’s children don’t get an opinion.

No, they don’t. They need to be in school with age appropriate peers

Could you please share the data you’re sourcing this from? That age-identical classrooms are critical to children’s success? Moreso than the developmental appropriateness of the environment? Because candidly I think you’re making this up as you go along.

My four year old and her seven year old cousin are best friends. It’s amazing to see how she brings out leadership and compassion in her older cousin and how her cousin brings out courage and creativity in her.

The discussion is about peers and a child held back isn't necessarily going to be a leader just because they are older. It harms everyone and when you get to HS, do you want your 14 year old in classes with 19-20 year olds as that is whats happening.

You’re right, a child who is redshirted isn’t necessarily going to be a leader and— parents who are redshirting aren’t always doing it for that reason anyway. So don’t worry about the redshirted kids.

You seem to be suggesting a freshman in high school could be taking classes with a senior— while the 20 y/o would be shockingly rare, it’s not more worrying to have a 19 than an 18 y/o senior. What is your panic about here?

It’s it rare at all. Electives, gym, health ed and math are always mixed. My 13-14 year old freshman had three classes with seniors freshman year. An elective that was auditioned in, pe and math.

Ok so please explain your anxiety around a 14 year old being in a class with a 19 year old that doesn’t exist for an 18 year old?

.

19 year olds in high school isn’t redshirting. Those are kids who failed a year, had transfer issues, are foreign students who need more time for the language, were homeschooled or have GED and need the credit etc etc. It happens rarely, but that won’t be solved by banning redshirting. Some areas have specific adult only high schools for ages 18 plus - maybe advocate for that if it’s an issue in your area.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:There are two ten year olds in my child’s third grade class. When will a school draw a line with this?

This practice really gets exploited to give kids unfair advantage. From my own experience as the youngest one in my grade, it made me anxious and insecure.

I did great on surface but it was challenging to navigate academic, athletic and social maizes as a little girl who was sent early and then skipped a grade so most my peers were 1-3 years older than me.

That’s the issue, it gets exploited. A mom can sent her child to forest school curriculum they downloaded from etsy when they are 5 and 6 and the just start then in 2nd grade to be with same age peers. A bright child whose parents taught them anything at home would easily catch up. The entire kinder and first grade curriculum can be taught pretty easily. Most want the perceived advantage of being the “oldest and most mature” and just won’t admit it.

This.

If I'd had the resources to homeschool or private school my kid in K, I would have taken it. She is young for her grade and sensitive, and K was a tough transition because her public school did not emphasize outdoor time, play, physical movement, etc. It was a LOT of sitting and listening. It wasn't age appropriate and we all kind of hated it.

But I don't wish I'd redshirted her because even though that environment wasn't great, she's on or above grade level academically and I think it's ideal to have her in a classroom with same age peers. Yes she's on the young side but so are some of the other kids. If she were redshirted she'd be the oldest in class.

So yeah if I could have sent her to an outdoor-focused K program, maybe even K and 1st (though actually our 1st grade teacher was phenomenal and really emphasized outdoor time and by then DD was really ready for the academic focus), I might have done it just because I hate how publics handle kinder. But that doesn't mean it would be a good idea for her to go all the way through school with a younger cohort. That's not the right group for her to be in -- she should be with other kids her age.

I just wish all the kids got a gentler K experience and we would have happily skipped it if we could afford to, but then we would have transferred her into her age-appropriate class in public.

Of course it’s age appropriate. It’s school, not preschool. You and her preschool did not prepare her.

Sitting all day and almost no outdoor or physical activity time is not age appropriate for 5/6 year olds.

If you think kindergarten should be more like the rest of elementary school and that it should be geared toward 6/7 year olds, then advocate for that to be the recommended age cut off.

What doesn't make sense is to passively allow some parents to redshirt and then accommodate them by gearing kindergarten to older children. If you think kids should be at least 6 and turning 7 in K, then make that the age cut off.

This really isn't that complicated.

Schools would appear more rational if “on time” didn’t include four year olds. It makes the whole system look foolish and irrational which of course means parents don’t trust the system and have to make their own choices. 5 by the first day of August for schools that start in August makes sense.

Except August and summer is acceptable for redshirt. I know exactly 0 kids who started at 4. Most start at 5. And no one is talking about the late spring or summer redshirts, we are talking about the kids who are pushing what is appropriate.

The same rules that make an August birthday a parents decision make an October birthday a parents decision. If you don’t like those rules, start working for age-appropriate kindergarten and more parents will choose to send “on time”

NP, I do think there needs to be more conversations about age appropriate kindergarten. My young for grade kindergartener really, really struggled, and she's neurotypical, a rule follower and well above grade level academically. But our public K was way too much seat time and not enough fun and play.

This is why my bright September four year old will start at five and spend a year doing what four and five year olds should do— learn by by playing, being outside, and not sitting at a desk.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:There are two ten year olds in my child’s third grade class. When will a school draw a line with this?

In practical terms, how does this impact you?

I'm not someone who redshirted BTW.

I'm not someone who redshirted either, but holy moly isn't it obvious? If there are still many developmental differences at this age, it can badly affect kids that are on the younger side emotionally, socially, physically, mentally, academically, etc. and it must be frustrating if they are in the grade they are supposed to be, and other kids are not.

You’re assuming that kids emotional, social, physical, mental, academic, etc. development is synchronized with age. While there is certainly a general correlation, each child is a unique individual that may be more advanced in the development of some characteristics, and behind in the development of others.

Clearly, some kids are tall for their age and others are short. Some short kids may be smarter or more academic than some tall kids. Some kids may be more mature than others, and that may or may not correspond to their height, mental abilities, or academic levels. Not to mention that you have no idea specific issues a child might have now, much less have had before they were scheduled to start K “on time” (and it’s not any of your business).

If a child is redshirted, they are in the grade they are supposed to be in, you just don’t know why.

If it’s any consolation, there may be a child who was “supposed to be” in your child’s class, but was redshirted because their parents felt that their child wasn’t ready for K when your child was. Instead of sending this hypothetical child to school when they couldn’t sit still and would wander around the classroom when the teacher was trying to explain a lesson, or when they hadn’t learned emotional control and might strike out at other kids when they got frustrated, or weren’t ready academically and required extra instruction from the teacher when your child was ready to learn something new, or had speech problems so severe that without an extra year of speech therapy even their parents couldn’t really understand them, or had medical issues that caused potty training issues that they were working with the pediatrician to resolve, etc., their parents did your child a HUGE favor by redshirting that child and giving them extra time to address those problems so that they would be less disruptive to their classmates.

Don’t hurt yourself doing backflips like that!

If red shirting wasn’t an advantage then nobody would red shirt. You can’t deny it. There is some serious next level gaslighting going on here.

Yes, just be upfront about it. It would be refreshing to hear. “It’s so nice to have an older kid. I never have to worry about their confidence and they get to be recognized as a leader. Schools and sports are easy for him”

It’s this and nothing more. It’s a bunch of boymoms who think holding back their unimpressive sons creates Future Leaders.
It’s always what redshirting has been.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are two ten year olds in my child’s third grade class. When will a school draw a line with this?

This practice really gets exploited to give kids unfair advantage. From my own experience as the youngest one in my grade, it made me anxious and insecure.

I did great on surface but it was challenging to navigate academic, athletic and social maizes as a little girl who was sent early and then skipped a grade so most my peers were 1-3 years older than me.

That’s the issue, it gets exploited. A mom can sent her child to forest school curriculum they downloaded from etsy when they are 5 and 6 and the just start then in 2nd grade to be with same age peers. A bright child whose parents taught them anything at home would easily catch up. The entire kinder and first grade curriculum can be taught pretty easily. Most want the perceived advantage of being the “oldest and most mature” and just won’t admit it.

This.

If I'd had the resources to homeschool or private school my kid in K, I would have taken it. She is young for her grade and sensitive, and K was a tough transition because her public school did not emphasize outdoor time, play, physical movement, etc. It was a LOT of sitting and listening. It wasn't age appropriate and we all kind of hated it.

But I don't wish I'd redshirted her because even though that environment wasn't great, she's on or above grade level academically and I think it's ideal to have her in a classroom with same age peers. Yes she's on the young side but so are some of the other kids. If she were redshirted she'd be the oldest in class.

So yeah if I could have sent her to an outdoor-focused K program, maybe even K and 1st (though actually our 1st grade teacher was phenomenal and really emphasized outdoor time and by then DD was really ready for the academic focus), I might have done it just because I hate how publics handle kinder. But that doesn't mean it would be a good idea for her to go all the way through school with a younger cohort. That's not the right group for her to be in -- she should be with other kids her age.

I just wish all the kids got a gentler K experience and we would have happily skipped it if we could afford to, but then we would have transferred her into her age-appropriate class in public.

Of course it’s age appropriate. It’s school, not preschool. You and her preschool did not prepare her.

Sitting all day and almost no outdoor or physical activity time is not age appropriate for 5/6 year olds.

If you think kindergarten should be more like the rest of elementary school and that it should be geared toward 6/7 year olds, then advocate for that to be the recommended age cut off.

What doesn't make sense is to passively allow some parents to redshirt and then accommodate them by gearing kindergarten to older children. If you think kids should be at least 6 and turning 7 in K, then make that the age cut off.

This really isn't that complicated.

Schools would appear more rational if “on time” didn’t include four year olds. It makes the whole system look foolish and irrational which of course means parents don’t trust the system and have to make their own choices. 5 by the first day of August for schools that start in August makes sense.

Except August and summer is acceptable for redshirt. I know exactly 0 kids who started at 4. Most start at 5. And no one is talking about the late spring or summer redshirts, we are talking about the kids who are pushing what is appropriate.

The kids are pushing it? Or the parents and admins who seem to think this is best for a particular child and didn't need your consent.

You’re right. I have a neurotypical kid who was on time for everything and socialy keeping up with peers. I really don’t know what it would be like to have developmental issues. Perhaps if we were in that situation we would have had to make the same decision not to send them because they can’t keep up.

My kid had serious developmental issues and they went. Holding back would not fix it.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:There are two ten year olds in my child’s third grade class. When will a school draw a line with this?

This practice really gets exploited to give kids unfair advantage. From my own experience as the youngest one in my grade, it made me anxious and insecure.

I did great on surface but it was challenging to navigate academic, athletic and social maizes as a little girl who was sent early and then skipped a grade so most my peers were 1-3 years older than me.

That’s the issue, it gets exploited. A mom can sent her child to forest school curriculum they downloaded from etsy when they are 5 and 6 and the just start then in 2nd grade to be with same age peers. A bright child whose parents taught them anything at home would easily catch up. The entire kinder and first grade curriculum can be taught pretty easily. Most want the perceived advantage of being the “oldest and most mature” and just won’t admit it.

This.

If I'd had the resources to homeschool or private school my kid in K, I would have taken it. She is young for her grade and sensitive, and K was a tough transition because her public school did not emphasize outdoor time, play, physical movement, etc. It was a LOT of sitting and listening. It wasn't age appropriate and we all kind of hated it.

But I don't wish I'd redshirted her because even though that environment wasn't great, she's on or above grade level academically and I think it's ideal to have her in a classroom with same age peers. Yes she's on the young side but so are some of the other kids. If she were redshirted she'd be the oldest in class.

So yeah if I could have sent her to an outdoor-focused K program, maybe even K and 1st (though actually our 1st grade teacher was phenomenal and really emphasized outdoor time and by then DD was really ready for the academic focus), I might have done it just because I hate how publics handle kinder. But that doesn't mean it would be a good idea for her to go all the way through school with a younger cohort. That's not the right group for her to be in -- she should be with other kids her age.

I just wish all the kids got a gentler K experience and we would have happily skipped it if we could afford to, but then we would have transferred her into her age-appropriate class in public.

Of course it’s age appropriate. It’s school, not preschool. You and her preschool did not prepare her.

Sitting all day and almost no outdoor or physical activity time is not age appropriate for 5/6 year olds.

If you think kindergarten should be more like the rest of elementary school and that it should be geared toward 6/7 year olds, then advocate for that to be the recommended age cut off.

What doesn't make sense is to passively allow some parents to redshirt and then accommodate them by gearing kindergarten to older children. If you think kids should be at least 6 and turning 7 in K, then make that the age cut off.

This really isn't that complicated.

Schools would appear more rational if “on time” didn’t include four year olds. It makes the whole system look foolish and irrational which of course means parents don’t trust the system and have to make their own choices. 5 by the first day of August for schools that start in August makes sense.

Except August and summer is acceptable for redshirt. I know exactly 0 kids who started at 4. Most start at 5. And no one is talking about the late spring or summer redshirts, we are talking about the kids who are pushing what is appropriate.

The same rules that make an August birthday a parents decision make an October birthday a parents decision. If you don’t like those rules, start working for age-appropriate kindergarten and more parents will choose to send “on time”

NP, I do think there needs to be more conversations about age appropriate kindergarten. My young for grade kindergartener really, really struggled, and she's neurotypical, a rule follower and well above grade level academically. But our public K was way too much seat time and not enough fun and play.

This is why my bright September four year old will start at five and spend a year doing what four and five year olds should do— learn by by playing, being outside, and not sitting at a desk.

They can do those things before and after school and the weekends. This is all nonsense.

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Anonymous wrote:Public schools aren’t retaining anyone because that costs $$$. I’ve only heard of retention being offered when a kid missed a lot of a grade due to something like a serious medical issue, or at the end of the Covid school years - 2019-20 or 2020-21 - if a kid didn’t progress during the closures. My neighbor had a young for grade 1st grader in 20-21 and FCPS did offer to let her repeat 1st in person.

But let this thread be a heads up to everyone: redshirting is common, perhaps even expected, in private schools, especially for the younger for grade kids. So plan accordingly.

+1, and I would say it’s increasingly common in public school among parents who read the data on developmentally appropriate settings for 4-5. So, assume if you send a four year old they’ll be youngest by a year+, and an early five year old by a year. None of this is secret, or unavailable information to you.

Since most public schools do an age cut off around September 1st, the number of kids attending K at age 4 is very small (and even people who complain about excessive redshirting don't complain about redshirting a kid who would be 4 during the "normal" cut off). In NY (which is the only place with a midyear cut off that results in a lot of 4 year olds being eligible for K) it's common for people to redshirt those kids and no one complains about it.

The only redshirting people complain about is when people start redshirting kids who would be well over 5 when starting K but they hold them back anyway. Yes, in some privates that's common place, but the school generally encourages it and everyone has a chance to do it -- they like having an older class of K students and often they will strongly encourage redshirting summer or late spring birthdays. Some schools even offer a transitional year for young K students before taking the regular K class, so you still wind up with a fairly age-homogenous class.

But in public that's not the case, and when some parents start deciding their April or May birthday kid needs another year, it can leave other parents stuck with the consequences of those actions without warning. No one is going to get mad that a parent redshirted so their kid could start K at 5, but when you see kids starting K at 6 and a half, it becomes an issue.

Please yell at me now and tell me I'm a "crazy anti-redshirter" for agreeing this specific issue is a problem.

As someone with a young for grade kid, I think it is absolutely insane to consider this a problem whatsoever, and really makes you sound like someone who has no experience with any real problems in life.

My kid with an August birthday who I sent on time (she started K at 5 but was among the youngest in her grade) was viciously bullied by a redshirted child in 1st grade. My kid was 6 years old for the entirety of 1st grade. The bullying child turned 8 in September and was signficantly bigger and taller. Redshirting played a major role in the bullying because while this one child was the leader, there were many older kids in the classroom due to redshirting and when the bully would attack/provoke my kid, she'd cry, and then all the older kids would round on her and call her a baby and tease her for being small and young (she is average height for her age).

I had no idea how prevalent redshirting was when I enrolled my kid in K. She was academically and socially ready for a K classroom full of 5 and 6 year old children. In fact she continues to be at the top of her grade academically and she is well liked by teachers for being a good listener who follows directions and is helpful and kind in the classroom (something that apparently the extra years of preschool or staying home did not help instill in these redshirted kids who are merely bigger and older, not more mature).

I absolutely resent that my child's classroom environment has been dominated by older children who I think should have spent their 5/6 year in K learning out to function in elementary school, but instead spent it elsewhere and arrived at elementary school with their own ideas about how school should work. I resent how common bullying and relational aggression are at the school because of these older-but-less-mature kids.

Call me a crazy anti-redshirted if you want. I think redshirting sucks. Kids should start school at the same age so that they learn the same skills and are generally at the same developmental level. Kids with developmental delays can/should be held back to accommodate their delays, but it shouldn't be at the parents' discretion.

We will be moving school districts before these older kids hit puberty in 3rd grade and we have to deal with that.

As a parent who doesn't care about redshirting one way or another (and has both middle-of-age-for grade and young-for-grade kids, none old-for-grade): the bullying isn't because your kid is small. Bullies will find literally anything to gang up on kids about. One of my kids was bulled for not watching Spongebob Squarepants in a late elementary grade. Does that make sense as a thing to mock a kid over? No. But my kid was a prickly and kind of hard-to-get-to-know kid, so of course they were a target. The actual thing to make fun of was incidental to the act of piling on.

And it's possible (probable?) this older kid is lashing out because:
- they do have delays and you have no idea and the delays are social
- they feel embarassed about your kid doing as well when they are so much older.

PP here. Of course bullying can happen for a whole variety of reasons.

But at my kid's specific school, in specific classrooms where there are a large percent of redshirted kids including one that was significantly older, the bullying was closely related to having a cohort of older, bigger, unsocialized kids. My DD was not the only child targeted, but all the children who were bullied were "on time" kids who were on the younger end of normal for the grade. All the bullies were the oldest kids in class.

Also, it's not just about the age difference. It's also that these redshirted kids were not socialized into elementary school when they were young enough for it help. They arrived at K too old and less malleable. In my child's 1st grade class, those older kids RAN the classroom. This year my kid is in 2nd and due to the bullying issues last year, my kid and others who were targeted are in a classroom without any of the much older kids. The classroom is significantly better, with less conflict and fewer behavioral issues.

I don't have any issue with moderate redshirting for kids with summer birthdays. I don't think you should be allowed to redshirt a kid with a birthday during the school year unless there is a clear reason why delaying kindergarten will help. And I actually think a lot of developmental delays might be made worse by redshirting unless you can show the kids are going to get services to improve the situation. Perhaps some of these delays would be best addressed by having the kid in a classroom with other kids and receiving services through the school.

I honestly do not understand why you continue to keep your child in a school where your DC experiences significant bullying and you believe the classroom activities and level are so wildly inappropriate. It seems weird to me.

You seem very ignorant of the reality that most parents experience. Most parents can’t just switch schools out of the blue.

Right. Which leads parents to make careful decisions about when their kids start school. For example— not sending a kid who may struggle to kindergarten too early.

Or, send our kid and get them the help they need so they don’t struggle.

What "help" do you recommend?

IEP’s. Soooo many kids have them. Professional help often paid for by the school district. I’ve see kids get services for adhd, dyslexia, occupational therapy… I think many people like you overestimate your ability and underestimate the ability of professionals with undergrad and grad degrees in education and therapy.

IEPs are for children with disabilities. You have to qualify for them. You can't just "get an IEP."

- Professional with an undergrad and grad degree in education and psychology.

Then what is the issue you feel that you can’t send a 5 to Kinder? I’m telling you, you’re making it something it’s not. It’s not that hard. Trust me.

Some kids just need a bit more time. That’s the help. It’s so weird you can’t understand that. Professionals and parents agree. Busy bodies with faux concerns about other people’s children don’t get an opinion.

No, they don’t. They need to be in school with age appropriate peers

Could you please share the data you’re sourcing this from? That age-identical classrooms are critical to children’s success? Moreso than the developmental appropriateness of the environment? Because candidly I think you’re making this up as you go along.

My four year old and her seven year old cousin are best friends. It’s amazing to see how she brings out leadership and compassion in her older cousin and how her cousin brings out courage and creativity in her.

The discussion is about peers and a child held back isn't necessarily going to be a leader just because they are older. It harms everyone and when you get to HS, do you want your 14 year old in classes with 19-20 year olds as that is whats happening.

You’re right, a child who is redshirted isn’t necessarily going to be a leader and— parents who are redshirting aren’t always doing it for that reason anyway. So don’t worry about the redshirted kids.

You seem to be suggesting a freshman in high school could be taking classes with a senior— while the 20 y/o would be shockingly rare, it’s not more worrying to have a 19 than an 18 y/o senior. What is your panic about here?

It’s it rare at all. Electives, gym, health ed and math are always mixed. My 13-14 year old freshman had three classes with seniors freshman year. An elective that was auditioned in, pe and math.

Ok so please explain your anxiety around a 14 year old being in a class with a 19 year old that doesn’t exist for an 18 year old?

.

19 year olds in high school isn’t redshirting. Those are kids who failed a year, had transfer issues, are foreign students who need more time for the language, were homeschooled or have GED and need the credit etc etc. It happens rarely, but that won’t be solved by banning redshirting. Some areas have specific adult only high schools for ages 18 plus - maybe advocate for that if it’s an issue in your area.

These kids were held back. Except the fall kids who missed the deadline. Let’s call it what it is. It’s a huge issue when these adults are with young teens.

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Anonymous wrote:There are two ten year olds in my child’s third grade class. When will a school draw a line with this?

This practice really gets exploited to give kids unfair advantage. From my own experience as the youngest one in my grade, it made me anxious and insecure.

I did great on surface but it was challenging to navigate academic, athletic and social maizes as a little girl who was sent early and then skipped a grade so most my peers were 1-3 years older than me.

That’s the issue, it gets exploited. A mom can sent her child to forest school curriculum they downloaded from etsy when they are 5 and 6 and the just start then in 2nd grade to be with same age peers. A bright child whose parents taught them anything at home would easily catch up. The entire kinder and first grade curriculum can be taught pretty easily. Most want the perceived advantage of being the “oldest and most mature” and just won’t admit it.

This.

If I'd had the resources to homeschool or private school my kid in K, I would have taken it. She is young for her grade and sensitive, and K was a tough transition because her public school did not emphasize outdoor time, play, physical movement, etc. It was a LOT of sitting and listening. It wasn't age appropriate and we all kind of hated it.

But I don't wish I'd redshirted her because even though that environment wasn't great, she's on or above grade level academically and I think it's ideal to have her in a classroom with same age peers. Yes she's on the young side but so are some of the other kids. If she were redshirted she'd be the oldest in class.

So yeah if I could have sent her to an outdoor-focused K program, maybe even K and 1st (though actually our 1st grade teacher was phenomenal and really emphasized outdoor time and by then DD was really ready for the academic focus), I might have done it just because I hate how publics handle kinder. But that doesn't mean it would be a good idea for her to go all the way through school with a younger cohort. That's not the right group for her to be in -- she should be with other kids her age.

I just wish all the kids got a gentler K experience and we would have happily skipped it if we could afford to, but then we would have transferred her into her age-appropriate class in public.

Of course it’s age appropriate. It’s school, not preschool. You and her preschool did not prepare her.

Sitting all day and almost no outdoor or physical activity time is not age appropriate for 5/6 year olds.

If you think kindergarten should be more like the rest of elementary school and that it should be geared toward 6/7 year olds, then advocate for that to be the recommended age cut off.

What doesn't make sense is to passively allow some parents to redshirt and then accommodate them by gearing kindergarten to older children. If you think kids should be at least 6 and turning 7 in K, then make that the age cut off.

This really isn't that complicated.

Schools would appear more rational if “on time” didn’t include four year olds. It makes the whole system look foolish and irrational which of course means parents don’t trust the system and have to make their own choices. 5 by the first day of August for schools that start in August makes sense.

Except August and summer is acceptable for redshirt. I know exactly 0 kids who started at 4. Most start at 5. And no one is talking about the late spring or summer redshirts, we are talking about the kids who are pushing what is appropriate.

The same rules that make an August birthday a parents decision make an October birthday a parents decision. If you don’t like those rules, start working for age-appropriate kindergarten and more parents will choose to send “on time”

NP, I do think there needs to be more conversations about age appropriate kindergarten. My young for grade kindergartener really, really struggled, and she's neurotypical, a rule follower and well above grade level academically. But our public K was way too much seat time and not enough fun and play.

What help did you get her? It is age appropriate. Problem is you and the preschool did not prepare her.