SFFA doesn't like the Asian American %

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The Supreme Court ruled that the specific types of admissions programs at issue failed strict scrutiny and violated Title VI.

But at no point did it rule that the Civil Rights Act or the Fourteenth Amendment prohibits consideration of race in every aspect of our lives. The holding is much more narrowly-tailored than you are portraying.

Who said anything about every aspect of our lives?
We are talking about racial discrimination in college admissions.

Just a few pages ago, PPs were harping on Jim Crow and slavery, which has literally nothing to do with college admissions.

Are you new to the US? You seem to have no understanding of the culture or history.

It's well into the 21st century already.

So that’s a yes, you are new to the US?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I feel like this is what people thought would happen…that it would benefit whites the most…yet how many Asians were on this forum celebrating the end of AA.

Asians complain about model minority and them totally believe in it when convenient.

Those darn Asians, believing in transparent policies with fair standards for all

Why can’t they accept that maybe they aren’t the best applicants…

I know you have trouble comprehending this, but actually we are not all the same

+1 There is so much Asian bashing on this forum. I hope it's just a few ignorant losers, but I suspect it's more than that.

Some Blacks are bitter because they see immigrant group after immigrant group leapfrog their community to prosperity and now they are losing racial preferences too.

Some Whites are bitter because they're losing their privilege with access to exclusive places and high paying jobs and now people cross the street when they see a bunch of young white men hanging out on the sidewalk.

Hispanics are just angling for the fastest climb up that ladder, they know they are going to get there but they'd like to see it for their children rather than their grandchildren or great grand children. They are on a typical generational immigrant pathway to the american dream.

Asians are just tired of being used as the pressure valve for the costs of progressive social policies to remedy injustices they had no hand in creating

This forum lets you say what ever about black people and nothing at all about Asian people…

Say what you want as long as it's true.

We still think there’s something wrong with the kids rather than recognizing their something wrong with the tests,"

"Standardized tests have become the most effective racist weapon ever devised to objectively degrade Black and Brown minds and legally exclude their bodies from prestigious schools."

There's nothing wrong with the tests.
There's nothing wrong with you.
Study harder.
Earn it.
Don't rely on the guilt and pity of white people to get you something you didn't earn.

The data says differently, but of course you are entitled to your opinion.

No, it doesn't.

The data says that the tests are excellent measures of not only college performance but all sorts of outcomes.
The research on this is so well accepted that it is at least as well established as global warming.

Anyone telling you different is trying to push an agenda.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv_Cr1a6rj4

Data also shows that the test are biased. That is one of the reasons colleges don't want only high GPA, high SAT kids. Some have figured out how to follow the law and maintain diversity. It won't take long for the others to get back to the class they want. Sorry if this reality hurts your feelings.

Please check your agenda. The low quality Ted talk from 10 years ago is not very convincing. There is more current data that indicates standardized testing is flawed.

How is math test biased lol
What a pathetic excuse lol

Math education is biased, which will be reflected in scores.
https://today.usc.edu/girls-learn-math-bias-gender-ability-stem/

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I feel like this is what people thought would happen…that it would benefit whites the most…yet how many Asians were on this forum celebrating the end of AA.

Asians complain about model minority and them totally believe in it when convenient.

Those darn Asians, believing in transparent policies with fair standards for all

Why can’t they accept that maybe they aren’t the best applicants…

I dunno, something about being the best students all throughout school kinda makes that difficult

Thinking you are something isn’t the same thing as being that something.

The only one who decides what makes the best applicants for a particular college is that college. They aren’t all looking for the same thing. And they certainly don’t want 2000 carbon copies of the same thing.

You have a weird mindset.
Every individual is unique.

Yes. And race is one aspect of an individual. And it can be considered wrt to that individual.

“Nothing in this opinion should be construed as prohibiting universities from considering an applicant’s discussion of how race affected his or her life, be it through discrimination, inspiration, or otherwise”

Asians probably got most affected by their race with all sorts of barriers, obstacles, and discrimination.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:SFFA wants the stats of all non-Asians admitted to these colleges this year? Is that the short answer?

The asian students too. All the stats for all the students. You can't really do an analysis with partial data.

With each identified by race. Also need their personal statements, mental health records, etc. Everything.

I agree about the essays, but why would the admissions committee have mental health records?

So long as they get the essays they can evaluate and compare discussions of family struggles, financial, immigration issues, medications, therapy, suicide attempts, gender dismorphia, divorces, lottery winnings, business failures, rational and irrational fears, car accidents... everything. Plus all the letters of recommendation from teachers. They will have to be identified by name and race as well. Everything

But…colleges don’t keep this information. They assign scores to these essays and move on. Much in the same way Harvard’s case was decided by the deltas in points compared to interview scores. What organization keeps 1000s of essays just lying around?

The Common App is a massive database holding everything. Everything submitted by the student. Everything shared by the College Board. Every letter written by teachers, etc. That is where SFFA will have to go to get it all. Nothing ever gets deleted from the internet. So if there is something sensitive in an applicants essays or in a letter-of-recommendation it will be exposed during discovery.

https://www.commonapp.org/counselors-and-recommenders/recommender-guide

Seems like a security concern. I don’t think anyone should be applying to a system that up and forfeits their info to a bunch of randoms obsessed with race.

Yes, I would have huge issues with this. I feel like Asians are trying to turn our college system into what exists in China or India. I don’t want that.

or UK, Germany, France etc. pretty much rest of the world that has more clear and fair rules and standards

Then I wonder why people from all over the world still come to the US for college and why a US college education continues to be considered so valuable.

The thing is, outside a handful of highly competitive schools in the US, admissions ARE very compliant and largely based on GPA and test scores. It's just at a small number of private, highly selective colleges, the process is opaque because they have way more people with sufficiently high quantitative metrics than they have spots. So they use a qualitative approach that is necessarily squishy and places a high value on metrics like "fit" and "class balance" and "character."

And what some of you who are enraged about this don't understand is that these qualitative metrics lead to desirable learning environments for many people, and if admissions was purely based on test scores, many people would value it less.

Why do you think that is?

Until around WWII, US colleges were regarded as 2nd 3rd tier schools. People from all over the world went to Europe.
Real talents form US who want to really study and research further went to schools in UK, Germany, France.
It a combination of many factors and the economical, political, cultural power of the country play big roles.

Again, nobody really says anything like 'purely based on test scores.'
There has been clearly a discriminatory practice that they required much higher standards from Asians.
This cannot be tolerated, and the US Supreme Court ruled it.
Now you get it?

What were the stats for students who are black, Hispanic, low-income, male vs female, etc?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I feel like this is what people thought would happen…that it would benefit whites the most…yet how many Asians were on this forum celebrating the end of AA.

Asians complain about model minority and them totally believe in it when convenient.

Those darn Asians, believing in transparent policies with fair standards for all

Why can’t they accept that maybe they aren’t the best applicants…

I dunno, something about being the best students all throughout school kinda makes that difficult

Thinking you are something isn’t the same thing as being that something.

The only one who decides what makes the best applicants for a particular college is that college. They aren’t all looking for the same thing. And they certainly don’t want 2000 carbon copies of the same thing.

You have a weird mindset.
Every individual is unique.

Yes. And race is one aspect of an individual. And it can be considered wrt to that individual.

“Nothing in this opinion should be construed as prohibiting universities from considering an applicant’s discussion of how race affected his or her life, be it through discrimination, inspiration, or otherwise”

Asians probably got most affected by their race with all sorts of barriers, obstacles, and discrimination.

Maybe they should write about it in their essay.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Supreme Court ruled that the specific types of admissions programs at issue failed strict scrutiny and violated Title VI.

But at no point did it rule that the Civil Rights Act or the Fourteenth Amendment prohibits consideration of race in every aspect of our lives. The holding is much more narrowly-tailored than you are portraying.

Who said anything about every aspect of our lives?
We are talking about racial discrimination in college admissions.

Just a few pages ago, PPs were harping on Jim Crow and slavery, which has literally nothing to do with college admissions.

Are you new to the US? You seem to have no understanding of the culture or history.

It's well into the 21st century already.

So that’s a yes, you are new to the US?

No, that's we don't live in the 1960s; we live well into the 21st century.

In the 1960s, most of the countries in Asia, like Korea, Japan, China, and Vietnam, were total ruins from wars and such. Most people started from total scratch, especially the immigrants who came to the US in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s."

However, past is gone and we live well into the 21st century now.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:And what are the "laws of America"?

The Supreme Court's ruling is not a "law." They are part of the judicial branch, which interprets laws. The legislative branch makes laws.

How about no racial discrimination

Cite the statute.

The 14th amendment of the Constitution of the united states.

The plain language of the Fourteenth Amendment says nothing about racial discrimination or Asians. Try again.

You know the SFFA v Harvard case was based on the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment right?

NP. Yes but you don't understand what the decision said. You seem to think that it said that school now must look *exclusively* at quantitative academic metrics for determining admissions. But that's not what it said.

The decision forces schools to eliminate race as a factor that can be used to increase a candidate's application scoring. The decision found that because schools were giving scoring points to candidates of some races and not others and because the reasoning used by schools to determine which races received these points was inconsistent and unclear then the use of the this mechanism in admissions violated the 14th amendment.

However the decision does not prevent schools from considering the diversity of incoming classes in making admissions decisions. This means that schools may still consider race in admissions in a holistic way in order to put together a class that roughly reflects the racial demographics of the US or the state in which they are occupied. They just cannot award any individual candidate points towards admission for their race.

The reality of this is that it is still 100% legal for Harvard to decide that it seek to racially balance it's classes in such a way that no race is overrepresented as compared to the general population. The impact is that this results in virtually no change to the percentages of AAPI students admitted to these schools. The schools are not required to fill their classes with AAPI students simply because there are more such candidates with top academic credentials. Because schools may still legally look at qualitative measures for admission including the demographic balance of the incoming class.

So please stop acting like schools that don't immediately have 70% AAPI populations and are still looking at qualitative measures for admission are violating the law. They are not. As long as they are not giving students of any race extra points for race in making admissions decisions they are complying with the supreme court decision. That is all it changed.

Point to the part where I say that SFFA mandates the schools "must look *exclusively* at quantitative academic metrics"
I don't think I do.

I said you can't use race and if you are using any of the other holistic factors as a proxy for race, you can't do that either.
And if you keep doing it, you might:
1. lose the ability to use those holistic factors because we cannot trust you to stop being racist;
2. lose your 501(c)(3) status because you can't be a racist non-profit;
3. lose your federal funding because federal funding can't fund racist institutions.

But you are not interpreting the Supreme Court decision the way literally anyone else is. The decision narrowly tells schools they may not award points to individual applicants for their race. It does not say that schools may not take race into account when create diverse cohorts or balancing the classes. And that is what schools have done. They will not lose their 501(c)(3) status nor will they lose their federal funding.

You also misunderstand the issue of non-race factors that serve as proxies for race. Often these are factors that most people agree are desirable but they *incidentally* operate as proxies for race. For instance many schools actively seek to recruit highly qualified students from inner city high schools with large at-risk populations. This is viewed as desirable because as a culture we believe we should be seeking to elevate and educate the best and the brightest coming out of the country's toughest neighborhoods and places where opportunities for advancement may be few and far between. There is also the argument that if you want to educate policy-makers who will be making decisions about how to deal with issues like inner-city crime and education then you should be looking for people who actual emerge from inner-city environments. Well guess what most of these students are black or hispanic. That doesn't mean that schools that actively recruit valedictorians of inner city schools (which includes most Ivies and other top schools) are only doing it to get more black and hispanic kids in their classes -- I believe they truly believe they should be recruiting kids from these schools independent of their race. But it results in them recruiting more black and hispanic students anyway.

And the Supreme Court decision doesn't tell them they can't do this. They just can't award these students extra points in the process for their race. But they CAN award them extra points for coming from inner-city high schools with large at-risk populations. Absolutely nothing wrong with that and it's also okay for schools to decide they'd rather take a valedictorian from Eastern High School in DC than another kid from a W school in Bethesda or Sidwell or Harvard-Westlake even if the kid from the more elite school has higher SAT scores and more and better APs. Colleges are allowed to preference backgrounds that are under-represented at these schools over backgrounds that are overrepresented and if it impacts the racial makeup of the classes too bad.

I know you WISH this is what the Supreme Court decision said but it's not.

+1
Reasonable poster, I agree with PP that your clear and correct arguments will do nothing to shut the troll up. But we appreciate your ability to present this in a neutral way. It's refreshing.

+1

Agreed

[Anonymous]

I'm American but went to undergrad and grad school in the UK. I'm recommending that my child at least apply to universities there. It's not about affirmative action (we're white and it seems the end of affirmative action doesn't affect us much either way).

But there's been so much grade/SAT inflation since i grew up that, at the top end, the signal-to-noise ratio is just really low -- neither convey the kind of information they used to, so separate the really good students from the really, really good students that are admitted to the very top schools.

And so you have to distinguish yourselves with "research," non-profits, etc. that really don't contribute to education.

The UK admissions process is simply much more straightforward: We're an educational institution, so show you're a good student. Does this mean the students there aren't as good in other ways? Not in my experience (Cambridge/LSE).

Here in the US, because we've truncated the distribution of GPA/SAT scores at the top end, we force students to jump through a ton of performative hoops that a) neither impart nor signal education; and b) are MORE skewed toward the rich than GPA/SAT scores are. It's just a screwed-up process here, but since we can't seem to fix much of anything in the US I don't see it improving anytime soon.

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DC is a dual citizen and said that they would consider moving to the UK if they have kids because the college admissions process here is crazy.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I feel like this is what people thought would happen…that it would benefit whites the most…yet how many Asians were on this forum celebrating the end of AA.

Asians complain about model minority and them totally believe in it when convenient.

Those darn Asians, believing in transparent policies with fair standards for all

Why can’t they accept that maybe they aren’t the best applicants…

I dunno, something about being the best students all throughout school kinda makes that difficult

Thinking you are something isn’t the same thing as being that something.

The only one who decides what makes the best applicants for a particular college is that college. They aren’t all looking for the same thing. And they certainly don’t want 2000 carbon copies of the same thing.

You have a weird mindset.
Every individual is unique.

Yes. And race is one aspect of an individual. And it can be considered wrt to that individual.

“Nothing in this opinion should be construed as prohibiting universities from considering an applicant’s discussion of how race affected his or her life, be it through discrimination, inspiration, or otherwise”

Asians probably got most affected by their race with all sorts of barriers, obstacles, and discrimination.

Maybe they should write about it in their essay.

🤣

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Supreme Court ruled that the specific types of admissions programs at issue failed strict scrutiny and violated Title VI.

But at no point did it rule that the Civil Rights Act or the Fourteenth Amendment prohibits consideration of race in every aspect of our lives. The holding is much more narrowly-tailored than you are portraying.

Who said anything about every aspect of our lives?
We are talking about racial discrimination in college admissions.

Just a few pages ago, PPs were harping on Jim Crow and slavery, which has literally nothing to do with college admissions.

Are you new to the US? You seem to have no understanding of the culture or history.

It's well into the 21st century already.

So that’s a yes, you are new to the US?

No, that's we don't live in the 1960s; we live well into the 21st century.

In the 1960s, most of the countries in Asia, like Korea, Japan, China, and Vietnam, were total ruins from wars and such. Most people started from total scratch, especially the immigrants who came to the US in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s."

However, past is gone and we live well into the 21st century now.

No, the past is not gone.

Do you realize that the combination of your offensive posts and your obvious lack of understanding of US history and culture (and court rulings) makes you sound like an ignorant, racist a-hole?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like this is what people thought would happen…that it would benefit whites the most…yet how many Asians were on this forum celebrating the end of AA.

Asians complain about model minority and them totally believe in it when convenient.

Those darn Asians, believing in transparent policies with fair standards for all

Why can’t they accept that maybe they aren’t the best applicants…

I dunno, something about being the best students all throughout school kinda makes that difficult

Thinking you are something isn’t the same thing as being that something.

The only one who decides what makes the best applicants for a particular college is that college. They aren’t all looking for the same thing. And they certainly don’t want 2000 carbon copies of the same thing.

You have a weird mindset.
Every individual is unique.

Yes. And race is one aspect of an individual. And it can be considered wrt to that individual.

“Nothing in this opinion should be construed as prohibiting universities from considering an applicant’s discussion of how race affected his or her life, be it through discrimination, inspiration, or otherwise”

Asians probably got most affected by their race with all sorts of barriers, obstacles, and discrimination.

Maybe they should write about it in their essay.

Asian culture is not to make excuses and blame others, but they'll probably start doing that adopting to the American culture.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Supreme Court ruled that the specific types of admissions programs at issue failed strict scrutiny and violated Title VI.

But at no point did it rule that the Civil Rights Act or the Fourteenth Amendment prohibits consideration of race in every aspect of our lives. The holding is much more narrowly-tailored than you are portraying.

Who said anything about every aspect of our lives?
We are talking about racial discrimination in college admissions.

Just a few pages ago, PPs were harping on Jim Crow and slavery, which has literally nothing to do with college admissions.

Are you new to the US? You seem to have no understanding of the culture or history.

It's well into the 21st century already.

So that’s a yes, you are new to the US?

No, that's we don't live in the 1960s; we live well into the 21st century.

In the 1960s, most of the countries in Asia, like Korea, Japan, China, and Vietnam, were total ruins from wars and such. Most people started from total scratch, especially the immigrants who came to the US in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s."

However, past is gone and we live well into the 21st century now.

No, the past is not gone.

Do you realize that the combination of your offensive posts and your obvious lack of understanding of US history and culture (and court rulings) makes you sound like an ignorant, racist a-hole?

Keep living in the past.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like this is what people thought would happen…that it would benefit whites the most…yet how many Asians were on this forum celebrating the end of AA.

Asians complain about model minority and them totally believe in it when convenient.

Those darn Asians, believing in transparent policies with fair standards for all

Why can’t they accept that maybe they aren’t the best applicants…

I dunno, something about being the best students all throughout school kinda makes that difficult

Thinking you are something isn’t the same thing as being that something.

The only one who decides what makes the best applicants for a particular college is that college. They aren’t all looking for the same thing. And they certainly don’t want 2000 carbon copies of the same thing.

You have a weird mindset.
Every individual is unique.

Yes. And race is one aspect of an individual. And it can be considered wrt to that individual.

“Nothing in this opinion should be construed as prohibiting universities from considering an applicant’s discussion of how race affected his or her life, be it through discrimination, inspiration, or otherwise”

Asians probably got most affected by their race with all sorts of barriers, obstacles, and discrimination.

Maybe they should write about it in their essay.

🤣

“After growing up in my affluent neighborhood, attending top-rated high schools, and getting tons of support from my family and community, I was really devastated that I wasn’t one of the 50 kids with very similar background/stats from my HS to be admitted to a T10 university. I had to go to a T25 and my life will never be the same.”

[Anonymous]

Well, watchdogs/whistle blowers are crucial for keeping institutions honest. If schools are fair, they got nothing to hide. If they're not, they need to be held accountable.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like this is what people thought would happen…that it would benefit whites the most…yet how many Asians were on this forum celebrating the end of AA.

Asians complain about model minority and them totally believe in it when convenient.

Those darn Asians, believing in transparent policies with fair standards for all

Why can’t they accept that maybe they aren’t the best applicants…

I dunno, something about being the best students all throughout school kinda makes that difficult

Thinking you are something isn’t the same thing as being that something.

The only one who decides what makes the best applicants for a particular college is that college. They aren’t all looking for the same thing. And they certainly don’t want 2000 carbon copies of the same thing.

You have a weird mindset.
Every individual is unique.

Yes. And race is one aspect of an individual. And it can be considered wrt to that individual.

“Nothing in this opinion should be construed as prohibiting universities from considering an applicant’s discussion of how race affected his or her life, be it through discrimination, inspiration, or otherwise”

Asians probably got most affected by their race with all sorts of barriers, obstacles, and discrimination.

Maybe they should write about it in their essay.

Asian culture is not to make excuses and blame others, but they'll probably start doing that adopting to the American culture.

Well American universities reflect American culture and values. If AAPI kids in the US would prefer an Asian cultural experience in college they are welcome to apply to universities in Asia which will not care at all about their experiences with racism or how coaching Little League taught them empathy or whatever.

I wonder why more students don't just do this if they prefer a purely objective application process.