Thread about Pyle / Racism?

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As for the graphic, it was most recently published by the Smithsonian's AA History Museum. Why do you think someone did that?

Let's see, a graphic published in 1978 by an African American scholar? The best place for that might be a museum. Perhaps, a museum about African Americans? Nah, that would just cause Don Jr. and his DCUM supporters to get upset.

And if it was published on a website that talked about insane, racist ideas I'd agree with you. However, it was part of a page on dismantling whiteness. They even apologized for it https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article244309587.html And again, Kendi currently pushes these ideas. So unfortunately they re alive and well.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As for the graphic, it was most recently published by the Smithsonian's AA History Museum. Why do you think someone did that?

Let's see, a graphic published in 1978 by an African American scholar? The best place for that might be a museum. Perhaps, a museum about African Americans? Nah, that would just cause Don Jr. and his DCUM supporters to get upset.

And if it was published on a website that talked about insane, racist ideas I'd agree with you. However, it was part of a page on dismantling whiteness. They even apologized for it https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article244309587.html And again, Kendi currently pushes these ideas. So unfortunately they re alive and well.

Of course, after Don Jr. got all of his supporters worked up about it, the Museum backtracked. Ironically, this was simultaneously a display of white fragility and white privilege.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Who's not free now? Mission accomplished.

Right, all barriers have been removed from the paths of Black people. The reason they are forced to wait hours in line to vote while White voters breeze in and out of polling places is due to their failure to take initiative, or something. A million other challenges faced by Black Americans that are not faced by White Americans are all figments of our imagination. In fact, the only remaining thing left in this country that is racist is CRT, the victims of which are white and provoked into unending whinefests on local discussion forums.

This is all just storytelling. White people also wait hours in line to vote. What other challenges are faced by black people that are not faced by white people? What actual legal challenges do black people face that white people don't? Name them and I'll join you in fighting them. I don't think you can though. I bet most of what you will list are the result of being poor, not black. So if you want to have a discussion about what we can do to help ALL poor people, let's do it! If that ends up helping more black people than white people, great!

As for CRT, do you agree with Kendi that the US should start discriminating against white people to make up for past injustices?

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As for the graphic, it was most recently published by the Smithsonian's AA History Museum. Why do you think someone did that?

Let's see, a graphic published in 1978 by an African American scholar? The best place for that might be a museum. Perhaps, a museum about African Americans? Nah, that would just cause Don Jr. and his DCUM supporters to get upset.

And if it was published on a website that talked about insane, racist ideas I'd agree with you. However, it was part of a page on dismantling whiteness. They even apologized for it https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article244309587.html And again, Kendi currently pushes these ideas. So unfortunately they re alive and well.

Of course, after Don Jr. got all of his supporters worked up about it, the Museum backtracked. Ironically, this was simultaneously a display of white fragility and white privilege.

So you agree with the chart then?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Who's not free now? Mission accomplished.

Who wasn’t free in 1963 that he bothered to write the letter in the first place?

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 ( Pub.L. 88–352, 78 Stat. 241, enacted July 2, 1964) is a landmark civil rights and labor law in the United States that outlaws discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, national origin, and later sexual orientation and gender identity.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:So you agree with the chart then?

I think the graphic demonstrates the overlap between the attributes normally attributed to "American" culture and "white" culture. This overlap is so great that the two are almost synonyms. As such, the traditional concept of "American" culture leaves a lot of folks out and leads to the perception that non-whites are often less American. One example of this is how politicians -- normally conservative -- often talk about "Real America" or "Real Americans", meaning predominately white areas or white people. The parts of America that are not real are generally cities with diverse populations, ie. less white. Similarly, Donald Trump famously told four American Congresswomen (all POC) to go back to where they came from, despite three of them being born in the US.

I think it is possible to see the graphic as thought provoking while at the same time having obvious flaws. As such, its inclusion in a discussion of whiteness is appropriate. But, obviously, Don Jr. and those -- like you -- who agree with him are not interested in thinking those thoughts. Rather, your interest is maintaining the status quo.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Who's not free now? Mission accomplished.

Right, all barriers have been removed from the paths of Black people. The reason they are forced to wait hours in line to vote while White voters breeze in and out of polling places is due to their failure to take initiative, or something. A million other challenges faced by Black Americans that are not faced by White Americans are all figments of our imagination. In fact, the only remaining thing left in this country that is racist is CRT, the victims of which are white and provoked into unending whinefests on local discussion forums.

This is all just storytelling. White people also wait hours in line to vote. What other challenges are faced by black people that are not faced by white people? What actual legal challenges do black people face that white people don't? Name them and I'll join you in fighting them. I don't think you can though. I bet most of what you will list are the result of being poor, not black. So if you want to have a discussion about what we can do to help ALL poor people, let's do it! If that ends up helping more black people than white people, great!

As for CRT, do you agree with Kendi that the US should start discriminating against white people to make up for past injustices?

It is not just storytelling. Anywhere White people are waiting hours to vote, Black people are also waiting. But, there are states in which the lines are exclusively or nearly exclusively in Black areas. Do you think that it is a coincidence that in states like Georgia, there are fewer polling places in Black areas than White areas?

Do you really believe that White and Black people are treated equally by our legal system? Have you heard of Crystal Mason? She was sentenced to five years in prison for voting a provisional ballot while on probation. She did not know that she was not allowed to vote. Contrast this with Bruce Bartman who knowingly cast his dead mom's ballot for Donald Trump. He was sentenced to probation, no jail time. I could fill pages with similar examples of unequal treatment. The fact that you don't know about this is why you should spend more time listening to people like Kendi.

As for Kendi, I believe you are distorting his position. But, I do believe in targeted programs aimed at rectifying past discrimination. I do not believe that it is either fair or just to overlook past injustices and say "starting now everyone is being treated equally". That is a bit like a game in which one team was spotted a few points but then everyone demanded that the rules be enforced equally. That is fine going forward, but doesn't change the fact that one team is at a disadvantage. To be fair, some "discrimination" should take place in favor of the disadvantaged team.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So you agree with the chart then?

I think the graphic demonstrates the overlap between the attributes normally attributed to "American" culture and "white" culture. This overlap is so great that the two are almost synonyms. As such, the traditional concept of "American" culture leaves a lot of folks out and leads to the perception that non-whites are often less American. One example of this is how politicians -- normally conservative -- often talk about "Real America" or "Real Americans", meaning predominately white areas or white people. The parts of America that are not real are generally cities with diverse populations, ie. less white. Similarly, Donald Trump famously told four American Congresswomen (all POC) to go back to where they came from, despite three of them being born in the US.

I think it is possible to see the graphic as thought provoking while at the same time having obvious flaws. As such, its inclusion in a discussion of whiteness is appropriate. But, obviously, Don Jr. and those -- like you -- who agree with him are not interested in thinking those thoughts. Rather, your interest is maintaining the status quo.

What would you like changed specifically?

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Who's not free now? Mission accomplished.

Right, all barriers have been removed from the paths of Black people. The reason they are forced to wait hours in line to vote while White voters breeze in and out of polling places is due to their failure to take initiative, or something. A million other challenges faced by Black Americans that are not faced by White Americans are all figments of our imagination. In fact, the only remaining thing left in this country that is racist is CRT, the victims of which are white and provoked into unending whinefests on local discussion forums.

This is all just storytelling. White people also wait hours in line to vote. What other challenges are faced by black people that are not faced by white people? What actual legal challenges do black people face that white people don't? Name them and I'll join you in fighting them. I don't think you can though. I bet most of what you will list are the result of being poor, not black. So if you want to have a discussion about what we can do to help ALL poor people, let's do it! If that ends up helping more black people than white people, great!

As for CRT, do you agree with Kendi that the US should start discriminating against white people to make up for past injustices?

It is not just storytelling. Anywhere White people are waiting hours to vote, Black people are also waiting. But, there are states in which the lines are exclusively or nearly exclusively in Black areas. Do you think that it is a coincidence that in states like Georgia, there are fewer polling places in Black areas than White areas?

Do you really believe that White and Black people are treated equally by our legal system? Have you heard of Crystal Mason? She was sentenced to five years in prison for voting a provisional ballot while on probation. She did not know that she was not allowed to vote. Contrast this with Bruce Bartman who knowingly cast his dead mom's ballot for Donald Trump. He was sentenced to probation, no jail time. I could fill pages with similar examples of unequal treatment. The fact that you don't know about this is why you should spend more time listening to people like Kendi.

As for Kendi, I believe you are distorting his position. But, I do believe in targeted programs aimed at rectifying past discrimination. I do not believe that it is either fair or just to overlook past injustices and say "starting now everyone is being treated equally". That is a bit like a game in which one team was spotted a few points but then everyone demanded that the rules be enforced equally. That is fine going forward, but doesn't change the fact that one team is at a disadvantage. To be fair, some "discrimination" should take place in favor of the disadvantaged team.

"The only remedy to past discrimination is present discrimination. The only remedy to present discrimination is future discrimination.” - Kendi

How do we determine who's on which team? Skin color? Ancestral slave status? Year of immigration? DNA tests? What do we do with people of mixed race? How oppressed are they? And how many teams are there?

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Who's not free now? Mission accomplished.

Right, all barriers have been removed from the paths of Black people. The reason they are forced to wait hours in line to vote while White voters breeze in and out of polling places is due to their failure to take initiative, or something. A million other challenges faced by Black Americans that are not faced by White Americans are all figments of our imagination. In fact, the only remaining thing left in this country that is racist is CRT, the victims of which are white and provoked into unending whinefests on local discussion forums.

This is all just storytelling. White people also wait hours in line to vote. What other challenges are faced by black people that are not faced by white people? What actual legal challenges do black people face that white people don't? Name them and I'll join you in fighting them. I don't think you can though. I bet most of what you will list are the result of being poor, not black. So if you want to have a discussion about what we can do to help ALL poor people, let's do it! If that ends up helping more black people than white people, great!

As for CRT, do you agree with Kendi that the US should start discriminating against white people to make up for past injustices?

It is not just storytelling. Anywhere White people are waiting hours to vote, Black people are also waiting. But, there are states in which the lines are exclusively or nearly exclusively in Black areas. Do you think that it is a coincidence that in states like Georgia, there are fewer polling places in Black areas than White areas?

Do you really believe that White and Black people are treated equally by our legal system? Have you heard of Crystal Mason? She was sentenced to five years in prison for voting a provisional ballot while on probation. She did not know that she was not allowed to vote. Contrast this with Bruce Bartman who knowingly cast his dead mom's ballot for Donald Trump. He was sentenced to probation, no jail time. I could fill pages with similar examples of unequal treatment. The fact that you don't know about this is why you should spend more time listening to people like Kendi.

As for Kendi, I believe you are distorting his position. But, I do believe in targeted programs aimed at rectifying past discrimination. I do not believe that it is either fair or just to overlook past injustices and say "starting now everyone is being treated equally". That is a bit like a game in which one team was spotted a few points but then everyone demanded that the rules be enforced equally. That is fine going forward, but doesn't change the fact that one team is at a disadvantage. To be fair, some "discrimination" should take place in favor of the disadvantaged team.

As for your fist part, more anecdotal evidence which is worthless. Kendi is a racist so no one should listen to him, especially black people for whom his ideas are particularly dangerous.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:
What would you like changed specifically?

Specifically about what? With regard to how "American" is defined, I would like it to be more inclusive. A black Muslim woman wearing a hijab is just as American as a white Protestant male wearing a trucker hat. I would like society to stop viewing minorities as monolithic. For instance, if a white person commits a crime, it is not seen as a reflection on the entire white community (indeed, I am not sure if anyone even thinks there is a "white community"). But if a person of color does something, their entire communities are often expected to answer for it. For instance, why are American Muslims constantly asked to condemn ISIS or Hamas? Similarly, when Black people complain about their treatment by police, the response is often to say such treatment is justified because Black people commit a high percentage of crimes. But just because some Black people are criminals doesn't mean that all Black people should be considered potential criminals. This same sort collective responsibility doesn't apply to White people and it shouldn't apply to people of color either.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:As for your fist part, more anecdotal evidence which is worthless. Kendi is a racist so no one should listen to him, especially black people for whom his ideas are particularly dangerous.

Brilliant way to have a discussion. Essentially you are putting your fingers in your ears and chanting "la, la, la". It's precisely why I would rather delete your threads than waste time talking to a wall. It is amazing that Kendi presents such a threat to you. All because he asks you to reconsider your beliefs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Who's not free now? Mission accomplished.

Right, all barriers have been removed from the paths of Black people. The reason they are forced to wait hours in line to vote while White voters breeze in and out of polling places is due to their failure to take initiative, or something. A million other challenges faced by Black Americans that are not faced by White Americans are all figments of our imagination. In fact, the only remaining thing left in this country that is racist is CRT, the victims of which are white and provoked into unending whinefests on local discussion forums.

This is all just storytelling. White people also wait hours in line to vote. What other challenges are faced by black people that are not faced by white people? What actual legal challenges do black people face that white people don't? Name them and I'll join you in fighting them. I don't think you can though. I bet most of what you will list are the result of being poor, not black. So if you want to have a discussion about what we can do to help ALL poor people, let's do it! If that ends up helping more black people than white people, great!

As for CRT, do you agree with Kendi that the US should start discriminating against white people to make up for past injustices?

It is not just storytelling. Anywhere White people are waiting hours to vote, Black people are also waiting. But, there are states in which the lines are exclusively or nearly exclusively in Black areas. Do you think that it is a coincidence that in states like Georgia, there are fewer polling places in Black areas than White areas?

Do you really believe that White and Black people are treated equally by our legal system? Have you heard of Crystal Mason? She was sentenced to five years in prison for voting a provisional ballot while on probation. She did not know that she was not allowed to vote. Contrast this with Bruce Bartman who knowingly cast his dead mom's ballot for Donald Trump. He was sentenced to probation, no jail time. I could fill pages with similar examples of unequal treatment. The fact that you don't know about this is why you should spend more time listening to people like Kendi.

As for Kendi, I believe you are distorting his position. But, I do believe in targeted programs aimed at rectifying past discrimination. I do not believe that it is either fair or just to overlook past injustices and say "starting now everyone is being treated equally". That is a bit like a game in which one team was spotted a few points but then everyone demanded that the rules be enforced equally. That is fine going forward, but doesn't change the fact that one team is at a disadvantage. To be fair, some "discrimination" should take place in favor of the disadvantaged team.

As for your fist part, more anecdotal evidence which is worthless. Kendi is a racist so no one should listen to him, especially black people for whom his ideas are particularly dangerous.

Oh good lord. Get a clue. And this article is from 2020, before the GOP made their latest white supremacist and fascist attempt to disenfranchise Black people. https://www.businessinsider.com/why-black-americans-still-face-obstacles-to-voting-at-every-step-2020-6

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:"The only remedy to past discrimination is present discrimination. The only remedy to present discrimination is future discrimination.” - Kendi

It is amazing how often those two sentences have been quoted by Kendi's critics, few of whom likely have any understanding of the context:

The only remedy to racist discrimination is antiracist discrimination. The only remedy to past discrimination is present discrimination. The only remedy to present discrimination is future discrimination. As President Lyndon B. Johnson said in 1965, “You do not take a person who, for years, has been hobbled by chains and liberate him, bring him up to the starting line of a race and then say, ‘You are free to compete with all the others,’ and still justly believe that you have been completely fair.” As U.S. Supreme Court Justice Harry Blackmun wrote in 1978, “In order to get beyond racism, we must first take account of race. There is no other way. And in order to treat some persons equally, we must treat them differently.”

I assume that you also believe that LBJ and Justice Blackmun are anti-White racists?

I would encourage you to move beyond the single quote and read the entire article:

https://www.penguin.co.uk/articles/2020/june/ibram-x-kendi-definition-of-antiracist.html

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"The only remedy to past discrimination is present discrimination. The only remedy to present discrimination is future discrimination.” - Kendi

It is amazing how often those two sentences have been quoted by Kendi's critics, few of whom likely have any understanding of the context:

The only remedy to racist discrimination is antiracist discrimination. The only remedy to past discrimination is present discrimination. The only remedy to present discrimination is future discrimination. As President Lyndon B. Johnson said in 1965, “You do not take a person who, for years, has been hobbled by chains and liberate him, bring him up to the starting line of a race and then say, ‘You are free to compete with all the others,’ and still justly believe that you have been completely fair.” As U.S. Supreme Court Justice Harry Blackmun wrote in 1978, “In order to get beyond racism, we must first take account of race. There is no other way. And in order to treat some persons equally, we must treat them differently.”

I assume that you also believe that LBJ and Justice Blackmun are anti-White racists?

I would encourage you to move beyond the single quote and read the entire article:

https://www.penguin.co.uk/articles/2020/june/ibram-x-kendi-definition-of-antiracist.html

So you support discrimination against white people. Got it. At lest your position is clear.