Taking on Debt for Law School

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Retired Biglaw partner here. If your kid can get into a T14 he'd be fine taking on debt. Virtually anyone who graduates from T14 can get a Biglaw job. Maybe not at Covington or something but it doesn't matter -- they all pay the same and they all pay well.

Outside of T14 I wouldn't risk it. You just can't predict how well you're going to do in law school no matter what your LSAT tells you. And once you're out of the T14, and especially once you're out of the top 20-25, you really do need top grades for the big jobs.

Your son needs to remember, though, that Biglaw sucks. Your colleagues suck, they're boring and self-centered AF, your clients are generally evil and also suck, and your opposing counsel also suck. Basically all you're really doing is helping big companies push around huge sums of money. You rarely go to trial, too risky for shareholders, so you spends years doing all kinds of tedious and meaningless pretrial stuff and then settle. And the hours are terrible and you have no life.

There's a reason they pay so much.

I've never met a lawyer who started in Biglaw and moved on to something else and regretted it. Seriously, not one time. That tells me a whole lot.

Really disagree with the bolded part. I went to UVA law when it was about #10. Not sure what it is now. Half of the class was in "the bottom 50%" and they knew it! The level of depression -- like clinical depression -- as a result of not being on the interview list for firms was not unusual. I was very concerned about some friends. I would agree with the rest of what you wrote, though.

The best path is to spend a couple years out of college working before going back to law school. Then keep debt as low as possible, even if that means going to a slightly lesser school (i.e. a #15-25 school, or whatever school is considered good in the area where you want to live long term.). If you want to live in TN, then go to a lawschool in TN -- but only the best one or two that are known there. Other schools might be higher on the list, but reputation is local, so save $$. If you are looking at a much lower ranked school, then you should definitely not take out more than $20-30K in loans. If you are going to one of the upper ranked schools, then I'd still recommend keeping loans to $75K or less.

Your kid will want to start buying a house and eventually having a family, and saving for his/her kids' education.... you don't want to have $140K in loans dragging you down. That is prison. That's why people are willing to work in big firms (in part), when they hate it --- to pay their way out of debtor's prison. Unfortunately, some of them buy the big house and the fancy car, and then their kids need to go to the right schools, and the atty needs to join the country club in order to bring in business.... and before you know it, those golden handcuffs = a life term.

When you have minimal debt, you have options.

I had $70K debt coming out of lawschool and it was tough. Fortunately, DH was very cool about $$ and we paid off my student loans in 2 yrs using all of my salary to get rid of them before we had kids. It made a huge difference for our family to be debt free (except for a $140K mortgage) before having kids.

You may disagree with me, but the actual data does not. In 2018, 72 percent of UVA law grads got jobs in law firms at a median salary of $190k, while another 17 percent got judicial clerkships which are typically springboards to prestige law jobs. So, combined, you're talking nearly 90 percent.

https://www.law.virginia.edu/career-services/employment-data-recent-graduates

Law firms with a median salary of 190 are not big law, lol. That’s the starting salary at big law.

Of course it's the starting salary. It's the employment report for recent graduates. Not a mid career report. Idiot.

You are too funny. Your “actual data” does not show that PP is wrong when she says that the bottom fifty percent of UVA grads don’t make it into big law. Did you say “virtually everybody” a T14 makes it into biglaw? Your “actual data” show, definitively, that is totally untrue. And if somebody went to a T14 assuming big law would save them and then got stuck with 150K in debt and an 80K starting salary, well, that would be unfortunate.

[Anonymous]

For everyone who fears debt and suggests going to the cheapest decent school, there's also an argument to go to the best school you can get into. Clerkship and teaching opportunities are really different. Alumni networks are really different (it's a lot easier to get a job at a firm if it has 100 lawyers who went to your law school than if it has 1 lawyer who did). Public service loan repayment assistance options are better at the higher-ranked schools. So is funding for summer internships and preparation for fellowships. My law school had Skadden and EJW fellows every year because career services knew how to prepare students for them. Many law schools don't. Yes, I could have gone to the University of Minnesota or GW with a scholarship, and I could have gone to Wake Forest for free. I'm glad I picked my T14.

It's also worth considering cost of living. Fordham with a partial scholarship might be more expensive than Cornell or Michigan without, just because NYC has such high rents. At some state schools, establishing residency before applying might make sense...but at a lot of them it's either very hard to do so, doesn't save you much money, or pretty simple to do for 2L and 3L years.

[Anonymous]

To PP: A median salary of 190 is not “big law.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Retired Biglaw partner here. If your kid can get into a T14 he'd be fine taking on debt. Virtually anyone who graduates from T14 can get a Biglaw job. Maybe not at Covington or something but it doesn't matter -- they all pay the same and they all pay well.

Outside of T14 I wouldn't risk it. You just can't predict how well you're going to do in law school no matter what your LSAT tells you. And once you're out of the T14, and especially once you're out of the top 20-25, you really do need top grades for the big jobs.

Your son needs to remember, though, that Biglaw sucks. Your colleagues suck, they're boring and self-centered AF, your clients are generally evil and also suck, and your opposing counsel also suck. Basically all you're really doing is helping big companies push around huge sums of money. You rarely go to trial, too risky for shareholders, so you spends years doing all kinds of tedious and meaningless pretrial stuff and then settle. And the hours are terrible and you have no life.

There's a reason they pay so much.

I've never met a lawyer who started in Biglaw and moved on to something else and regretted it. Seriously, not one time. That tells me a whole lot.

Really disagree with the bolded part. I went to UVA law when it was about #10. Not sure what it is now. Half of the class was in "the bottom 50%" and they knew it! The level of depression -- like clinical depression -- as a result of not being on the interview list for firms was not unusual. I was very concerned about some friends. I would agree with the rest of what you wrote, though.

The best path is to spend a couple years out of college working before going back to law school. Then keep debt as low as possible, even if that means going to a slightly lesser school (i.e. a #15-25 school, or whatever school is considered good in the area where you want to live long term.). If you want to live in TN, then go to a lawschool in TN -- but only the best one or two that are known there. Other schools might be higher on the list, but reputation is local, so save $$. If you are looking at a much lower ranked school, then you should definitely not take out more than $20-30K in loans. If you are going to one of the upper ranked schools, then I'd still recommend keeping loans to $75K or less.

Your kid will want to start buying a house and eventually having a family, and saving for his/her kids' education.... you don't want to have $140K in loans dragging you down. That is prison. That's why people are willing to work in big firms (in part), when they hate it --- to pay their way out of debtor's prison. Unfortunately, some of them buy the big house and the fancy car, and then their kids need to go to the right schools, and the atty needs to join the country club in order to bring in business.... and before you know it, those golden handcuffs = a life term.

When you have minimal debt, you have options.

I had $70K debt coming out of lawschool and it was tough. Fortunately, DH was very cool about $$ and we paid off my student loans in 2 yrs using all of my salary to get rid of them before we had kids. It made a huge difference for our family to be debt free (except for a $140K mortgage) before having kids.

You may disagree with me, but the actual data does not. In 2018, 72 percent of UVA law grads got jobs in law firms at a median salary of $190k, while another 17 percent got judicial clerkships which are typically springboards to prestige law jobs. So, combined, you're talking nearly 90 percent.

https://www.law.virginia.edu/career-services/employment-data-recent-graduates

UVA now ranks between 6 and 8, above Duke. A lot has changed

Not really. UVA now 8 and Duke 10. Meaningless distinction.

https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings

Typical snotty lawyer response. I said UVA "now ranks between six and eight". You went when it was ten and then wined about how half the class was worried about getting jobs. That half isn't that worried anymore since UVA Law is doing so well. Duh.

I'm not that poster, and that poster only guessed that UVA was "about 10" when she went there. It's still "about 10." It has been "doing so well," as you put it, forever. My real point was the poster who said half the UVA class couldn't get Biglaw jobs when she was there was probably off on her numbers. Unless, of course she went there during the height of the financial crisis -- the absolute low point.

So, yea, you really don't know anything about law schools.

[Anonymous]

Oh my god - going to a T14 does NOT guarantee a big law job. At Georgetown that’s only true for the top third and when the economy is reasonably good. I was in the middle of the class in Gtown in the early 200s after the dot com crash. I had friends who were in top third who could not get biglaw offers. Forty percent of my class was unemployed at graduation. In contrast, the ones that graduated a few years before me, they got biglaw jobs as long as they were top two thirds. During the massive post 2008 r cession, even kids graduating from top five schools were having trouble, though usually those kids are fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Retired Biglaw partner here. If your kid can get into a T14 he'd be fine taking on debt. Virtually anyone who graduates from T14 can get a Biglaw job. Maybe not at Covington or something but it doesn't matter -- they all pay the same and they all pay well.

Outside of T14 I wouldn't risk it. You just can't predict how well you're going to do in law school no matter what your LSAT tells you. And once you're out of the T14, and especially once you're out of the top 20-25, you really do need top grades for the big jobs.

Your son needs to remember, though, that Biglaw sucks. Your colleagues suck, they're boring and self-centered AF, your clients are generally evil and also suck, and your opposing counsel also suck. Basically all you're really doing is helping big companies push around huge sums of money. You rarely go to trial, too risky for shareholders, so you spends years doing all kinds of tedious and meaningless pretrial stuff and then settle. And the hours are terrible and you have no life.

There's a reason they pay so much.

I've never met a lawyer who started in Biglaw and moved on to something else and regretted it. Seriously, not one time. That tells me a whole lot.

Really disagree with the bolded part. I went to UVA law when it was about #10. Not sure what it is now. Half of the class was in "the bottom 50%" and they knew it! The level of depression -- like clinical depression -- as a result of not being on the interview list for firms was not unusual. I was very concerned about some friends. I would agree with the rest of what you wrote, though.

The best path is to spend a couple years out of college working before going back to law school. Then keep debt as low as possible, even if that means going to a slightly lesser school (i.e. a #15-25 school, or whatever school is considered good in the area where you want to live long term.). If you want to live in TN, then go to a lawschool in TN -- but only the best one or two that are known there. Other schools might be higher on the list, but reputation is local, so save $$. If you are looking at a much lower ranked school, then you should definitely not take out more than $20-30K in loans. If you are going to one of the upper ranked schools, then I'd still recommend keeping loans to $75K or less.

Your kid will want to start buying a house and eventually having a family, and saving for his/her kids' education.... you don't want to have $140K in loans dragging you down. That is prison. That's why people are willing to work in big firms (in part), when they hate it --- to pay their way out of debtor's prison. Unfortunately, some of them buy the big house and the fancy car, and then their kids need to go to the right schools, and the atty needs to join the country club in order to bring in business.... and before you know it, those golden handcuffs = a life term.

When you have minimal debt, you have options.

I had $70K debt coming out of lawschool and it was tough. Fortunately, DH was very cool about $$ and we paid off my student loans in 2 yrs using all of my salary to get rid of them before we had kids. It made a huge difference for our family to be debt free (except for a $140K mortgage) before having kids.

You may disagree with me, but the actual data does not. In 2018, 72 percent of UVA law grads got jobs in law firms at a median salary of $190k, while another 17 percent got judicial clerkships which are typically springboards to prestige law jobs. So, combined, you're talking nearly 90 percent.

https://www.law.virginia.edu/career-services/employment-data-recent-graduates

UVA now ranks between 6 and 8, above Duke. A lot has changed

Not really. UVA now 8 and Duke 10. Meaningless distinction.

https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings

Typical snotty lawyer response. I said UVA "now ranks between six and eight". You went when it was ten and then wined about how half the class was worried about getting jobs. That half isn't that worried anymore since UVA Law is doing so well. Duh.

You presume too much. The person you were responding to was not the person who went to UVA when it was #10. I know b/c I was that person and I didn't write about UVA's current ranking. But, I guess you showed your true colors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To PP: A median salary of 190 is not “big law.”

Oh NM I see what you’re saying. “Got law firm jobs at a median salary of 190K” is super unclear though.

[Anonymous]

OP, follow the postings of the "retired big law partner" and think about whether your kid would want to work with people like this and 100x worse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Retired Biglaw partner here. If your kid can get into a T14 he'd be fine taking on debt. Virtually anyone who graduates from T14 can get a Biglaw job. Maybe not at Covington or something but it doesn't matter -- they all pay the same and they all pay well.

Outside of T14 I wouldn't risk it. You just can't predict how well you're going to do in law school no matter what your LSAT tells you. And once you're out of the T14, and especially once you're out of the top 20-25, you really do need top grades for the big jobs.

Your son needs to remember, though, that Biglaw sucks. Your colleagues suck, they're boring and self-centered AF, your clients are generally evil and also suck, and your opposing counsel also suck. Basically all you're really doing is helping big companies push around huge sums of money. You rarely go to trial, too risky for shareholders, so you spends years doing all kinds of tedious and meaningless pretrial stuff and then settle. And the hours are terrible and you have no life.

There's a reason they pay so much.

I've never met a lawyer who started in Biglaw and moved on to something else and regretted it. Seriously, not one time. That tells me a whole lot.

Really disagree with the bolded part. I went to UVA law when it was about #10. Not sure what it is now. Half of the class was in "the bottom 50%" and they knew it! The level of depression -- like clinical depression -- as a result of not being on the interview list for firms was not unusual. I was very concerned about some friends. I would agree with the rest of what you wrote, though.

The best path is to spend a couple years out of college working before going back to law school. Then keep debt as low as possible, even if that means going to a slightly lesser school (i.e. a #15-25 school, or whatever school is considered good in the area where you want to live long term.). If you want to live in TN, then go to a lawschool in TN -- but only the best one or two that are known there. Other schools might be higher on the list, but reputation is local, so save $$. If you are looking at a much lower ranked school, then you should definitely not take out more than $20-30K in loans. If you are going to one of the upper ranked schools, then I'd still recommend keeping loans to $75K or less.

Your kid will want to start buying a house and eventually having a family, and saving for his/her kids' education.... you don't want to have $140K in loans dragging you down. That is prison. That's why people are willing to work in big firms (in part), when they hate it --- to pay their way out of debtor's prison. Unfortunately, some of them buy the big house and the fancy car, and then their kids need to go to the right schools, and the atty needs to join the country club in order to bring in business.... and before you know it, those golden handcuffs = a life term.

When you have minimal debt, you have options.

I had $70K debt coming out of lawschool and it was tough. Fortunately, DH was very cool about $$ and we paid off my student loans in 2 yrs using all of my salary to get rid of them before we had kids. It made a huge difference for our family to be debt free (except for a $140K mortgage) before having kids.

You may disagree with me, but the actual data does not. In 2018, 72 percent of UVA law grads got jobs in law firms at a median salary of $190k, while another 17 percent got judicial clerkships which are typically springboards to prestige law jobs. So, combined, you're talking nearly 90 percent.

https://www.law.virginia.edu/career-services/employment-data-recent-graduates

Law firms with a median salary of 190 are not big law, lol. That’s the starting salary at big law.

Of course it's the starting salary. It's the employment report for recent graduates. Not a mid career report. Idiot.

You are too funny. Your “actual data” does not show that PP is wrong when she says that the bottom fifty percent of UVA grads don’t make it into big law. Did you say “virtually everybody” a T14 makes it into biglaw? Your “actual data” show, definitively, that is totally untrue. And if somebody went to a T14 assuming big law would save them and then got stuck with 150K in debt and an 80K starting salary, well, that would be unfortunate.

It kind of depends what their undergrad debt is and what their earnings potential without law school would be, though. $150k in debt at 7% for a 20-year loan is $1162 a month, which I admit sucks, but if the choice is earn $4k/month with no debt or $6500 a month with $1162 in debt, they're still probably better off with the debt, especially if the higher-paying job means more employer contribution to retirement. Not to mention that their income will probably increase faster with a law degree. There's also the possibility of doing IBR (it doesn't keep you from paying a few hundred extra toward the principal each month if you want), and if the $80k job is government or nonprofit, doing public service loan forgiveness if it still exists and the lawyer qualifies for it. I wouldn't count on loan forgiveness though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Retired Biglaw partner here. If your kid can get into a T14 he'd be fine taking on debt. Virtually anyone who graduates from T14 can get a Biglaw job. Maybe not at Covington or something but it doesn't matter -- they all pay the same and they all pay well.

Outside of T14 I wouldn't risk it. You just can't predict how well you're going to do in law school no matter what your LSAT tells you. And once you're out of the T14, and especially once you're out of the top 20-25, you really do need top grades for the big jobs.

Your son needs to remember, though, that Biglaw sucks. Your colleagues suck, they're boring and self-centered AF, your clients are generally evil and also suck, and your opposing counsel also suck. Basically all you're really doing is helping big companies push around huge sums of money. You rarely go to trial, too risky for shareholders, so you spends years doing all kinds of tedious and meaningless pretrial stuff and then settle. And the hours are terrible and you have no life.

There's a reason they pay so much.

I've never met a lawyer who started in Biglaw and moved on to something else and regretted it. Seriously, not one time. That tells me a whole lot.

Really disagree with the bolded part. I went to UVA law when it was about #10. Not sure what it is now. Half of the class was in "the bottom 50%" and they knew it! The level of depression -- like clinical depression -- as a result of not being on the interview list for firms was not unusual. I was very concerned about some friends. I would agree with the rest of what you wrote, though.

The best path is to spend a couple years out of college working before going back to law school. Then keep debt as low as possible, even if that means going to a slightly lesser school (i.e. a #15-25 school, or whatever school is considered good in the area where you want to live long term.). If you want to live in TN, then go to a lawschool in TN -- but only the best one or two that are known there. Other schools might be higher on the list, but reputation is local, so save $$. If you are looking at a much lower ranked school, then you should definitely not take out more than $20-30K in loans. If you are going to one of the upper ranked schools, then I'd still recommend keeping loans to $75K or less.

Your kid will want to start buying a house and eventually having a family, and saving for his/her kids' education.... you don't want to have $140K in loans dragging you down. That is prison. That's why people are willing to work in big firms (in part), when they hate it --- to pay their way out of debtor's prison. Unfortunately, some of them buy the big house and the fancy car, and then their kids need to go to the right schools, and the atty needs to join the country club in order to bring in business.... and before you know it, those golden handcuffs = a life term.

When you have minimal debt, you have options.

I had $70K debt coming out of lawschool and it was tough. Fortunately, DH was very cool about $$ and we paid off my student loans in 2 yrs using all of my salary to get rid of them before we had kids. It made a huge difference for our family to be debt free (except for a $140K mortgage) before having kids.

You may disagree with me, but the actual data does not. In 2018, 72 percent of UVA law grads got jobs in law firms at a median salary of $190k, while another 17 percent got judicial clerkships which are typically springboards to prestige law jobs. So, combined, you're talking nearly 90 percent.

https://www.law.virginia.edu/career-services/employment-data-recent-graduates

Law firms with a median salary of 190 are not big law, lol. That’s the starting salary at big law.

Of course it's the starting salary. It's the employment report for recent graduates. Not a mid career report. Idiot.

You are too funny. Your “actual data” does not show that PP is wrong when she says that the bottom fifty percent of UVA grads don’t make it into big law. Did you say “virtually everybody” a T14 makes it into biglaw? Your “actual data” show, definitively, that is totally untrue. And if somebody went to a T14 assuming big law would save them and then got stuck with 150K in debt and an 80K starting salary, well, that would be unfortunate.

195 of 299 2018 grads went to law firms with more than 250 lawyers. The vast majority of those went to firms with over 500 lawyers. Another 45 got federal clerkships, which only go to top graduates and virtually guarantee employment in Biglaw for whoever wants it.

So now you're at 240 of 299.

That's a lot more than half.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, follow the postings of the "retired big law partner" and think about whether your kid would want to work with people like this and 100x worse.

Retired law partner here. I disagree. They're 1000 times worse than me! I'm just telling it like it is.

[Anonymous]

Only go to one of the v best law schools OR get a full ride to a school in a city you'd like to practice (or specific area focus you are interested in) in AND make sure you want to BE A LAWYER not - I love (fill in the blank) ! I'll be a (fill in the blank) lawyer. Doesn't work like that -figure out what a lawyer does - talk to a bunch of them. Highly recommend working before law school. ---lawyer from a family of lawyers.

[Anonymous]

Pay for T10 law school. Anything else, do not go without a significant scholarship.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Oh my god - going to a T14 does NOT guarantee a big law job. At Georgetown that’s only true for the top third and when the economy is reasonably good. I was in the middle of the class in Gtown in the early 200s after the dot com crash. I had friends who were in top third who could not get biglaw offers. Forty percent of my class was unemployed at graduation. In contrast, the ones that graduated a few years before me, they got biglaw jobs as long as they were top two thirds. During the massive post 2008 r cession, even kids graduating from top five schools were having trouble, though usually those kids are fine.

Again, the numbers are readily available. 350 of Georgetown's 2018 class are with firms of over 250. Another 60 grads got judicial clerkships. 60 joined the government and 60 went into public interest law. Georgetown is a little different than many tier 14 schools because it's right here in DC and a lot of folks there are not really interested in biglaw from the get go -- they want government/public interest. It's also the lowest ranked of the top 14.

https://www.law.georgetown.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/L18-ABA-Employment-Summary-with-Addendum-1.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Only go to one of the v best law schools OR get a full ride to a school in a city you'd like to practice (or specific area focus you are interested in) in AND make sure you want to BE A LAWYER not - I love (fill in the blank) ! I'll be a (fill in the blank) lawyer. Doesn't work like that -figure out what a lawyer does - talk to a bunch of them. Highly recommend working before law school. ---lawyer from a family of lawyers.

+10000 for this.