Taking on Debt for Law School

[Anonymous]

PP here. I mean 350 of 600, and 420 of 600 including clerkships

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Pay for T10 law school. Anything else, do not go without a significant scholarship.

Also do not go to law school without having worked in a legal environment for a minimum of a year first.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you can do it without taking on debt, then great.

They have had to adjust the previous style of reporting to be more accurate as in previous years, law schools would happily allow you to go 6 fixures in the hole and promise that the median income was $160k (2010 law grad here). It wasn't.

What schools are reporting is still not accurate but better than before.

A lot depends on what your kid think s/he will do as a career but finding the balance between highly ranked school and low debt gives the most options. The one outlier to that is a local, lower ranked law school like George Mason in Arlington makes a lot of sense for this area if you aren't looking for big law and want a large network of local alumni.

We are a two JD family and will pay off both our loans 11 years out. Given our years of underemployment post recession, I feel really good about that but it still is a huge amount of interest. The life time earning potential will make up for it for us (commercial software transactions and financial services attorneys).

I did this and it worked out well for me. Got into better schools but I couldn't take on the debt. Went in-state at GMUSL and came out with a "boutique" law job that was half of what my friends in big law were making (80k) and about 80k in debt. Paid off the debt in 2.5 years and the opportunity cost of actually going back to law school in about 5 years. That was pretty liberating, knowing that I could quit practicing law after that and not feel like I'd wasted my time or money. I think many people forget about the opportunity cost aspect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Only go to one of the v best law schools OR get a full ride to a school in a city you'd like to practice (or specific area focus you are interested in) in AND make sure you want to BE A LAWYER not - I love (fill in the blank) ! I'll be a (fill in the blank) lawyer. Doesn't work like that -figure out what a lawyer does - talk to a bunch of them. Highly recommend working before law school. ---lawyer from a family of lawyers.

Finally. Both correct and concise. Lawyerly, you might say.

I’m a youngish biglaw partner living about the best dream version of law practice imaginable. But I come from a poor background and had immense debt. This guy has it right: T5 or debt free, otherwise do something else. I was neither of those, but managed to dance through the raindrops. I wouldn’t recommend it. I view my career as the fulcrum that gives my kids the freedom and comfort to try and do actual creative, exciting, valuable work. And I’m very happy with that given my starting point. But if my son has immense comfort and worldliness and the best schools and safety to fail, yet chooses to be a lawyer? I’d be disappointed.

[Anonymous]

I don't think the retired law partner from UVA is wrong at all. According to UVA's data, 71.4% of the class of 2018 went to law firms. 85.7% of them went to firms with 500+ attorneys. Basically all of them earned $190k (same salary for those at the 75th percentile, bottom 25% and median) . That sounds like big law to me. And because so many went this route, its clear that the bottom half of the class got lots of those jobs too.

I think the market for recent law grads has got a lot better. My spouse has a boutique firm with 50ish lawyers. They are finding lots of competition for new hires now, while 5 years ago, every offer was accepted.

[Anonymous]

You can get a job for 80k without the degree.

Not apples to apples, but I graduated two years ago with $185k in debt from my MBA. Chose a career path that I knew wouldn’t have the best work life balance but in which I could pay off my loans in 2-3 years, and I’m on track to kill them this December after 2.5.

Heading into 2021, I’ll have the freedom to move around to another job at a much higher pay grade vs. my pre-MBA life, and with the flexibility of my degree to search for a job with a better work life balance.

Definitely worth it for me, but I also don’t completely hate my life now, have learned a ton, met amazing life-long friends in grad school and travelled the world (not same experience as law school, really).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't think the retired law partner from UVA is wrong at all. According to UVA's data, 71.4% of the class of 2018 went to law firms. 85.7% of them went to firms with 500+ attorneys. Basically all of them earned $190k (same salary for those at the 75th percentile, bottom 25% and median) . That sounds like big law to me. And because so many went this route, its clear that the bottom half of the class got lots of those jobs too.

I think the market for recent law grads has got a lot better. My spouse has a boutique firm with 50ish lawyers. They are finding lots of competition for new hires now, while 5 years ago, every offer was accepted.

Hey, thanks, I know I'm not wrong -- but I didn't go to UVA. What I find so frustrating is that all the data is not only readily available but ABA-mandated. So it's very easy to go to the actual numbers for every school without having to talk out your a$$.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Only go to one of the v best law schools OR get a full ride to a school in a city you'd like to practice (or specific area focus you are interested in) in AND make sure you want to BE A LAWYER not - I love (fill in the blank) ! I'll be a (fill in the blank) lawyer. Doesn't work like that -figure out what a lawyer does - talk to a bunch of them. Highly recommend working before law school. ---lawyer from a family of lawyers.

Finally. Both correct and concise. Lawyerly, you might say.

I’m a youngish biglaw partner living about the best dream version of law practice imaginable. But I come from a poor background and had immense debt. This guy has it right: T5 or debt free, otherwise do something else. I was neither of those, but managed to dance through the raindrops. I wouldn’t recommend it. I view my career as the fulcrum that gives my kids the freedom and comfort to try and do actual creative, exciting, valuable work. And I’m very happy with that given my starting point. But if my son has immense comfort and worldliness and the best schools and safety to fail, yet chooses to be a lawyer? I’d be disappointed.

Guaranteed your kids end up underpaid baristas or "creative designers" in NYC with their rent paid for by you. Or perpetual post docs.

Virtually no one does valuable work. And some people do enjoy being lawyers.

I don't mean to be snarky. But the grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence. There are only very few genuinely meaningful jobs. We all need to live. And for many people, living well is worth jobs that are otherwise unfulfilling. A competent lawyer can bring in a good income and that is the satisfaction in itself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Only go to one of the v best law schools OR get a full ride to a school in a city you'd like to practice (or specific area focus you are interested in) in AND make sure you want to BE A LAWYER not - I love (fill in the blank) ! I'll be a (fill in the blank) lawyer. Doesn't work like that -figure out what a lawyer does - talk to a bunch of them. Highly recommend working before law school. ---lawyer from a family of lawyers.

Finally. Both correct and concise. Lawyerly, you might say.

I’m a youngish biglaw partner living about the best dream version of law practice imaginable. But I come from a poor background and had immense debt. This guy has it right: T5 or debt free, otherwise do something else. I was neither of those, but managed to dance through the raindrops. I wouldn’t recommend it. I view my career as the fulcrum that gives my kids the freedom and comfort to try and do actual creative, exciting, valuable work. And I’m very happy with that given my starting point. But if my son has immense comfort and worldliness and the best schools and safety to fail, yet chooses to be a lawyer? I’d be disappointed.

Guaranteed your kids end up underpaid baristas or "creative designers" in NYC with their rent paid for by you. Or perpetual post docs.

Virtually no one does valuable work. And some people do enjoy being lawyers.

I don't mean to be snarky. But the grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence. There are only very few genuinely meaningful jobs. We all need to live. And for many people, living well is worth jobs that are otherwise unfulfilling. A competent lawyer can bring in a good income and that is the satisfaction in itself.

I'm the retired Biglaw partner who some of the posters think is an a$$hole. I agree with "youngish biglaw partner." It's exactly what I did with my four kids, and they're now all adults doing much more creative and valuable things. Not only that, they're supporting themselves just fine and they're all much happier than I was at their age.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Only go to one of the v best law schools OR get a full ride to a school in a city you'd like to practice (or specific area focus you are interested in) in AND make sure you want to BE A LAWYER not - I love (fill in the blank) ! I'll be a (fill in the blank) lawyer. Doesn't work like that -figure out what a lawyer does - talk to a bunch of them. Highly recommend working before law school. ---lawyer from a family of lawyers.

Finally. Both correct and concise. Lawyerly, you might say.

I’m a youngish biglaw partner living about the best dream version of law practice imaginable. But I come from a poor background and had immense debt. This guy has it right: T5 or debt free, otherwise do something else. I was neither of those, but managed to dance through the raindrops. I wouldn’t recommend it. I view my career as the fulcrum that gives my kids the freedom and comfort to try and do actual creative, exciting, valuable work. And I’m very happy with that given my starting point. But if my son has immense comfort and worldliness and the best schools and safety to fail, yet chooses to be a lawyer? I’d be disappointed.

Ha, I feel the same way!

I agree with the posters who say only take on debt for a top school and even then, don't take on more than the starting salary in your target job. I won't say it has to be at a certain # in the rankings because some of that is regional. It might be worth taking on debt to go to the #2 school in your target city even if that school isn't T14 nationally (i.e. GW here). The questions are what proportion of grads get high paying jobs in the market where you want to work and are you willing to work in one of those high paying jobs knowing what that demands. Why does your kid want to go to law school? If it's to argue con law cases in the Supreme Court, then better go to a top 5 school and lead the class. If it's to work for a non-profit or in government, shoot for a school with excellent loan forgiveness programs or one that will be low debt. Encourage your kid to talk to lawyers about what they do to see if the field feels right and figure out where kid's aspirations fit.

[Anonymous]

I'm the retired Biglaw partner who some of the posters think is an a$$hole. I agree with "youngish biglaw partner." It's exactly what I did with my four kids, and they're now all adults doing much more creative and valuable things. Not only that, they're supporting themselves just fine and they're all much happier than I was at their age.

I am not PP, just another retired lawyer. One of my teenagers will likely embark on a STEM major, which is great for him. The other day, thinking about his other ECs (debate, extemp) I suddenly realized, uh oh, he'd make a really good lawyer. Figures.

[Anonymous]

Look into state schools or go within driving distance of your parents to avoid rent, etc. Bottom line: don’t go into debt...for any degree.

[Anonymous]

If law or med school is on your kids radar and you do not have unlimited funds (To the tune of 500 K plus per kid), then encourage your kid to go to the state school where they will be happy and get the best grades. The combination of grades and test scores are what matters most to med and law schools. Your kid will have far less debt if you can help out in addition to loans and scholarships. And as others have said, don’t go at all if you can’t get into a top 14-law school, and ideally top 6. Prepare for the long game - sometimes getting into a reach isn’t all it’s cracked up to be if they can’t hit the ground running.

[Anonymous]

Avoid taking loans to attend law school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, follow the postings of the "retired big law partner" and think about whether your kid would want to work with people like this and 100x worse.

Retired law partner here. I disagree. They're 1000 times worse than me! I'm just telling it like it is.

Just curious: how do you spend your life getting up every day in a job you hate with people who aren’t good to work with. It sounds like you did it for a very long time!and it has to be miserable. I’m not in law and so this is all new to me.